Conference unifix::sailing

    My main has two reef points.  The first reduces area to 70% while
    the second takes it to 40%.   I have no idea if this is correct
    or not.   I suspect the amount of reduction should be matched with
    the available reduction you have in the foretriangle.   You would
    always want to maintain a balanced helm through all the reduction
    levels if possible.

	Ah, for this there is the standard presales answer : "It depends".

	Do you have a fractional rig or not? Furling genny? How do you like
	to sail? How heavy is your main? Etc....

	If you have a frac, the mainsail is fairly big and you might actually
	want even three reef points. If it's not and you have a furling genny
	and the boat is not very sensitive balancewise one could do OK. But
	then you might want to carry a small storm main. You always have to
	consider how heavy cloth you have, there's no point in making reef
	points for weather that is so heavy that your cloth will not take it.

	Do you like trying to get maximum speed out of your boat (racing or
	cruising)? If yes, then more reefs points give you a better chance of
	maximizing your speed. If you're not so concerned, one reef that takes
	away more of your sail could be OK, at the cost of going at "sub"optimal
	speeds at times.

	Ofcourse it also depends on the conditions you expect to see (on the
	average); heavy seas or sheltered waters, light, steady winds or
	occasional 50 knot storms...?

	The person to discuss this with is your sailmaker (if he's familiar
	with the boattype). New reefpoints can be added to an existing sail
	but above and below the existing one. On the other hand again, if
	your main is very old, there's not much point....

	As for how to reef, again it depends. I myself have two reef lines
	for three reefs, so that I always have one holding the sail and can
	move the other to the next hole. During normal sailing I only need 
	the first two and as I have the lines hanging in there all the time,
	I can reef in a second or so (slight exageration :-) without crawling
	out on the boom to change the line (which is bl*dy hard in heavy
	weather). But there are so many different ways to reef, that it's
	hard to tell. Again, your sailmaker will have strong (and mostly cor-
	rect) opinions on this also.

	Keep those $'s rolling, H�kan

RE: .2,

>>>	If you have a frac, the mainsail is fairly big and you might actually
>>>	want even three reef points. 

It seems common (and sensible) in fractionally rigged boats to have the 
first reef typically bring the main peak down to where the forestay meets
the mast.  This way, the heavy leech loads your main may experience are
are managed by the forestay most directly. 

Further reefs seem to be more or less proportional to the first, either a 
fixed percentage reduction each reef taken in, or simply the same luff 
reduction in feet (which would reduce a marconi sail by an ever-greater 
percentage with each reef).

J.

    Pegasus (a Tartan33) has but one reef point (seems adequate after
    5 years we had no desire for another). This was termed a deep
    reef by the sailmaker. It brought the headboard down to about
    where the headstay and upper shrouds are attached.
    
    If you are a racer a second middle reef and a third flattening
    reef (to take some of the curve out of the foot) might be
    useful. I would check with a sailmaker who is familiar with
    your boat for specific recommendations.
    
    While reefing is certainly a function of the boat, we found
    the full main and heavy 125 was good up to about 20-25 kts
    apparant wind (where the heel and weather helm were higher than
    desirable). The single reef main with 125 was good from 20 to
    between 30 and 35kts.  I used to reef down the genoa at this point,
    but this past season found good balance and better speed when I
    dropped the main and continued under genoa in the 30-40 kt range.
    By the way, the above wind velocity represents the highest sustained
    velocity not the average, and are estimates (I never had enough
    use for a wind speed indicator to buy one).
    
    Walt 

The number of reef points you need depends on the sailing you do. If you 
only daysail in good weather close to shelter, one reef is probably 
enough. Otherwise, I would recommend at least two reefs. If you make 
extended passages (say over 100 miles in length and 20 or miles from 
shore), I'd recommend three. Sooner or later you'll need them. 

Our boat is quite stiff and can carry a lot of sail in a breeze (we've 
sailed closed hauled with a double reefed main and 100% jib in 30 to 40 
knot winds), but we've frequently needed the second reef and once the 
third briefly. 

Our boat originally had two mainsail reefs. We added a third, and
modified the boom so that all three clew reef lines can be fitted at all
times. As has been mentioned, trying to reeve a clew reef line in heavy 
weather is difficult -- it is also very dangerous. With three reefs we 
can balance the sail plan in all winds up to maybe 60 knots (so claims 
our sailmaker -- we fortunately can't verify this from experience). 
After that it time for the trysail. I'm not in favor of unbalanced sail 
plans (ie, genoa only) for a couple of reasons. First, further reduction 
of sail area can be a real problem. Second, if the genoa blows out, you 
then have no sail up at all. Plus, a balanced boat sails better.
Remember, the wind force increases with the square of the wind velocity,
so that in a gust the wind force can easily double. Multiple reefs add 
safety, and adding additional reefs is not expensive.

     What kind of price range should i expect?

RE:.6 by OURVAX::NICOLAZZO "Better living through chemistry"

> What kind of price range should i expect?

Counting hardware,  and installing the extra hardware yourself,  I remember
spending not quite $100 for adding a second reef to a Catalina 27.


Phil

    $100 doesn't sound bad. I have a Watkins 27 so i wouldn't imagine
    it would be a lot different. 
    
     I'm still not sure about placement of the second reef point. Would
    a sail loft be able to help me with that?

Actually, $100 sounds low. I'd guess that a sailmaker will charge $100 
to $200 to add the reef tack and clew grommets to the mainsail. After
all, you need several reinforcing patches for each, the tack and clew
grommets pressed in, and also the smaller reef tie grommets added. Doing 
this neatly will require unstitching the luff and leech tabling, adding 
the patches, and restitching the tabling. 

The cost of the additional hardware will depend on the exact details of 
your boom and current reefing system. You will need at least a turning 
block, a cleat, and a length of dacron line. This will be maybe another 
$50 to $75. How do you tension the reef clew now? It is essential to get 
the reefed mainsail flat, and getting sufficient tension on the clew 
reef line in a breeze to do this can be difficult or impossible without 
some mechanical help (we have a winch just for this). You may want to
consider some kind of block and tackle arrangement or a small winch. 

If your clew reef lines are inside the boom and if there are no extra 
sheaves, the cost goes up considerably. (Ours are internal, and I had to 
make custom sheaves, a sheave box, and a bracket to hold three 
stoppers.) In any case, sit on the boat a while and contemplate the 
hardware changes needed. Wait a couple of weeks and contemplate again. 
You may have a better idea. (I have yet to implement my first design for 
any project.)

    I had a second set of reef points added to my main last year. Granted
    my ComPac 19 is smaller than is being talked about here, but the
    cost shouldn't be much more. As I recall it was about $50. Having
    that done, cleaning 3 sails, and some repair work on the clew of
    the main came to well under $100. I had my work done at Amber Sails
    in Portsmouth N.H. The quality seemed indistinguishable from the
    original set of reef points - the only way I could tell was that
    the new grommets were shiny. I discussed placement with the owner
    of the loft (Debbie Wason) and left it to her discretion. She put
    them almost as high above the first set as the first set is above
    the foot (in linear distance, not sail area. We used the second
    set of reef points several times during the season, on lake
    Winnipesaukee. That implies (correctly) that I was sailing in heavier
    winds than ever before. Partly because I am more comfortable and
    partly because the second reef allowed it.
    
    Bill
    

    Re: .10
    
    Just a confirmation on Amber Sails.... She does high quality work
    at good prices.  This is a small (low overhead) operation.
    I believe she got her training at Hood.
    
    Re: others
    
    This might be a good note to discuss main reefing rigging.
    One area that I would like to hear about is single line systems
    that don't require a tack hook.  What are people using?

re single line mainsail reefing:

I've thought about this idea, and it seems to have some problems and
advantages. I've never talked to anyone who has used such a system or 
even seen a boat so rigged. 

Problems: 

Rather a lot of hardware is needed to implement single line reefing. One
end of the reef line is attached to a padeye on the boom. From the 
padeye the line goes up to the reef clew, then down to a turning block
at the outer end of the boom, then to a turning block at the gooseneck,
then up to the reef tack, then down to a turning block at the deck, then
to a sheet stopper, and finally to a winch (since there is so much
friction). Or something similar. Double or triple this for two or three
reef points. For one or two reefs this scheme is reasonably manageable
in terms of the physical placement of all the turning blocks -- one reef
line can run down each side of the boom. For three reefs, there are some
placement problems. Reef lines internal to the boom complicate matters
significantly. 

The tension in the reef line (neglecting friction) is the same 
everywhere, so that the downward tension on the tack and clew are 
roughly the same. How much of a problem this causes with sail shape I 
don't know.

Since the single line is long and under a substantial and varying load, 
chafe is likely to be a problem, especially at the sail grommets and 
sheet stopper. Bear in mind that offshore you might sail with a reefed
mainsail for days at a time. We've twice almost had the clew reef lines 
chafe through, and low stretch dacron is expensive. If the line breaks,
getting the sail back under control without damage might be a good
trick. 

Advantages:

Reefing is fast and easy (in theory at least). But you still have to go 
on deck to tie up the foot of the sail.

Anyone with practical experience?

    re: .12
    
    Yes, chafe seems to be a problem and they don't give long line away.
    Short lines always seem to be available as cut down pieces of other
    things like retired halyards etc. but long ones are a problem.
    
    I'm wondering if anyone has thought of a practical way to rig an
    auxiliary outhaul with a sturdy hook.  This way you could use the
    conventional rig to take the initial reef, trim, etc..  Then when
    you've stabilized everything you could add a hook to take the working
    load from the initial rig.   This would be much safer for those
    long periods under reef.

    We had a hook system for the flattening reef on FT, but it is
    impossible to keep a hook in a reefing point well up the sail without
    keeping way too much pressure on it.  Also, the angle of the hook,
    assuming it comes out of the end of the boom is not good for any
    depth of reefing.  Keeps the foot nice and tight but the vector
    is all wrong for keeping the foot of the sail next to the boom.
    
    As for single line reefing, I wouldn't do it.  Not enough strength
    on the new tack to properly tension the luff.  We use the cunningham
    which has a big hook on the end of it for the new tack.  The cunningham
    is a control I would recommend that even pure cruising types install
    if not already there.  It is great for changing gears with wind
    strength as well as for quick reefing.  Just make sure you have
    enough line in the multi part (4 or 6 to 1) block arrangement to
    anable the hook to reach up well past the gooseneck.  You do need
    to have someone at the mast for this but I have not seen an acceptable
    reefing method that can truly be done in the cockpit anyway.  
    
    Dave 

re .13:

The solution I use (stolen from Hal Roth) is to reef the mainsail 
however it is normally done. Then use a short length of line to lash 
(several turns) the clew to the boom. Then release the clew reef line. 
All the load is now on the lashing. By putting a padeye (or something) 
on the bottom of the boom, the lashing can both pull the clew outward 
(horizonantally) and downward. Putting the lashing on can be a bit of a 
trick and somewhat dangerous depending on how high your boom is above 
the cockpit or coachroof. This works well and I've had no trouble with 
the lashing line chafing.

RE: .12,

>>>  The tension in the reef line (neglecting friction) is the same 
>>>  everywhere, so that the downward tension on the tack and clew are 
>>>  roughly the same. How much of a problem this causes with sail shape I 
>>>  don't know.

I sailed a long while ago on a boat with single-line reefed main.  The
tack snugged down just fine, but the clew didn't do so well; the more your
cranked on the line, the more the tack scrunched up and the line
stretched, but the clew achieved only what might charitably be termed
"adequacy" for the job.  Maybe there are better choice for single-reef 
lines:  Low stretch, very low friction, and very high abrasion resistance.

Beyond the stretch, I would have worried a great deal about chafe if we 
been offshore in nasty stuff, since there was all that line to stretch 
around everything and therefore work back and forth along its entire 
length as the sail and rig worked in a sea.  Having seen the chafe which
occurred in a rather short time with Alan's quite well engineered (and
beefy) system aboard TM, I think chafe might be a real hassle. 

J.

    Simply lashing the clew seems to be the best solution..... cheap,
    rugged, simple, and not dangerous.   One more thought on a single
    line system though.....
    
    On the systems I have seen rigged, the angle made by the reefing
    line never seems to have a proper lead to really pull the foot
    tight.  i.e.  most of the tension is applied in the downward direction.
    Wouldn't it make sense to refasten your original outhaul (mine is
    in a track on top of the boom) to provide foot tension in the reefed
    sail?  In this manner you could think of the reefing rig as primarily
    providing vertical load while the original outhaul is the tensioner
    for the foot.
    
    I've never done it this way but when I think about it I've never
    had a truly flat reef either.  I always wrote that off to increased
    pressure forcing the cloth to stretch (funny how this note file
    forces you to think).  If you use this as your reefing procedure
    does this make a single line system more practical......
    
    What I'm thinking of is this......  Single line as described by
    Alan in a previous note.  To reef you ease the main halyard while
    hauling on your single line.  The sail never goes to flog mode
    and you won't have to luff as much or as long to get the initial
    settings.  Secure in this position then attach outhaul to new clew.
    Adjust foot tension with outhaul, then attach cunningham
    or lashings to tack and adjust luff tension with cunningham or halyard
    as appropriate.   Maybe a tweak on the foot tension again followed
    by a lashing there and you are done and ready to tie off the reef
    points. 

    Re .17
    
    The placement of the turning block for reefing line is supposed
    to be towards the stern of the new clew.  As the line is tensioned
    the sail is pulled down and out.  But too often the riggers and
    sailmakers put the turning block or foot hole directly under the
    clew reef resulting in a baggy looking reefed sail.  Just what you
    don't need when it's howling out.
    
    The tension on a reefing line can be extreme.  Especially for a
    flattening reef which leaves most of the sail still up there.
    On a J30 we used 3/8 kevlar which had an MTBF of one season.
    
    I'm not sure that there's much to be gained with a single line tack
    and clew reefer.  Still have to let off the main halyard.  Setting
    each line is a two handed job which can be done one after the other.
    If the boat were small enough, I suppose one could stand in the
    middle and let off on the main halyard with one hand while pulling
    in the reefing line with the other.  But if the sails are big enough
    to require a winch on each line, there's no way to do both at the
    same time.
    
    - gene

RE:.9 by MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens"

> Actually, $100 sounds low. I'd guess that a sailmaker will charge $100 
> to $200 to add the reef tack and clew grommets to the mainsail. 

I am fairly sure it was $75 for the sailmaker (Don't recall the name,  in 
E Greenwich RI),  and $20 something for a turning block and cleat.  The
hardware cost is a little fuzzy.  I am sometimes glad of a poor memory,
when it comes to boat expenses at least.


Phil

    I just bought a new main for a Sabre 30 from Fortune Sails (Falmouth,
    Me.), each set of reef points was $95. This was on a new sail but
    I'd guess that it should be in the ball park for an add-on job.

RE: .17,  

>>>  ...(funny how this note file forces you to think).  

So true.  It's got me to wondering:

What if one used an internal wire (single part) with a hook or shackle on
the end for each reefed clew position, properly located for pulling back
as much as down?  

  1)  Clew cringle chafe would be taken care of by hook or shackle design.

  2)  A smooth-shouldered sheave mounted in a well-fastened demountable 
      box in the top of the boom near the foot track would manage chafe 
      there.

  3)  Wire would manage the stretch problem, and chafe to some extent; it
      might also allow two or three reefing sheaves to coexist in the boom
      with each other and the outhaul.  There's probably some practical 
      lower size limit on the boom in this scheme.

  4)  Power to haul this system in would be either from an appropriate
      winch (internal? external maybe better?) mounted forward on the boom
      (near where you'll be stationed anyway to deal with the luff hook and
      perhaps main halyard), or perhaps from some "magic box" arrangement 
      in or on the boom forward.  (You dinghy sailors remember those
      things -- little ~2"x~2"x~12" flat-mounted boxes with the wire going 
      in one end and a lighter line coming out the other, offering with 6:1
      or greater purchase.) 

Already I see a couple problems, though.  The first in complexity, but 
then, 30 years ago who thought we'd see truly functional roller furling
systems, or dependable powerful windvanes? 

The other is (obviously) cost.  

J.

    re: .21
    
    On my boom there is a triangular shaped casting of bronze that has
    an eye at the vertical dimension of the center of my clew.  This
    is at the peak of the triangle and is more or less hard wired to
    the clew with a shackle which currently goes on once per season.
    At the aft end of the base of this triangle is an eye which is shackled
    to a wire that goes over a block at the aft end of the boom then
    to a fiddle block.  The block provides a two to one purchase for
    this outhaul.   The triangle slides in the sail track.
    
    This is (when I think about it) the only outhaul which can deliver
    the correct angle (horizontal) for foot tension.  All other outhaul
    arrangements on subsequent reefs are compromises.  It is a simple
    matter to take advantage of this first level outhaul for all the
    reef points.   I think I will relegate the current reef turning
    blocks to down haul functionality and get tension arrangement with
    the original outhaul.  After all you don't need it in its original
    attachment once the first reef is in.

    Ocean Navigator magazine has a discussion about a single reefing
    system  in issue number 22. In it the author describes the basic
    block arrangement that Alan describes in .12 but using Spectra rope.
    It says that spectra has the same stretch characteristics as wire,
    yet is smooth and easy to handle. Does not require babying like
    kevlar, can be run over ordinary rope sheaves and knotted, kinked
    and abused without losing strength. The author also recommends lazy
    jacks to complement the system. 
    An alternative to lazy jacks would be the Dutchman system. This
    system accomplishes the same thing as lazy jacks by running vertical
    lines from the boom up to the topping lift. These vertical lines
    are essentially woven through the sail through several plastic cringles
    that must be installed by a sailmaker. The advantage of the Dutchman
    is that all the sail flakes very nicely and evenly on top of the
    boom as it comes down. The disadvantages listed are greater expense
    than lazy jacks, they cannot be removed for racing or fitting an
    awning, and cannot be unsnapped and moved forward out of the way
    like a lazy jack can.

     I checked with Anderson & Vining in Salem. They gave me a price
    of $68.00 to add the second reef point. The price sounds reasonable,
    anyone have any experience with them?
    
     Though, i'm still not sure how the reef line will attach to the 
    second reef clew (my reef line runs from the tack end of the boom,
    through the boom to the clew end, up through the clew reef grommet 
    and back down to the boom where it is anchored).

>>>     I checked with Anderson & Vining in Salem. They gave me a price
>>>    of $68.00 to add the second reef point. The price sounds reasonable,
>>>    anyone have any experience with them?
    
Back a few years ago now, I had them make up a simple looped strap with 
a grommet to be placed *exactly* 6" from the loop end.  They missed by 
over 1/2", and refused to make another till I paid for the lousy one.

Given their work, and attitude, in my experience, $68 is probably
outrageously high. 

J.

    Re -.2  The second reef line on the clew has to come to a point
    further up the boom than the end.  A turning on the boom with either
    an eye (or better yet a reinforced slit in the foot of the main
    so you can tie the end of the line around the boom itself) on the
    opposite side.  On all these do-it-yourself projects I hope everybody
    has the concept down that these lines encounter incredible forces
    and that the hardware needs to be surprisingly beefy.
    
    Dave

    A couple of years back I had Fred Vining make a staysail for my
    Freedom.  (White boat, blue cove, boot and cabin sides)  We talked
    about colors, decided on a plain white sail.  He made a white sail
    with a very wide GREEN border, similar to what you see on roller
    furling sails.  Same story as .25.  There are better sailmakers
    around.                                             
    
    djc

    I am looking at upgrading the reefing system on my Pearson 26. Today
    there is a reef hook at the tack that is pretty much straight and is
    20 years old (looks kinda beat). There is no nut threaded to it, so I
    have a feeling it hasn't been used in a long time. The one time I
    reefed, I tied off the tack, but the sail was baggier than a pair of
    sweat pants.
    
    I am looking at upgrading it. They still sell this style of tack hook,
    but I also see a circular version. Any pros or cons on these types?
    
    Should the hook be facing the crew (same side as the boom cleat for the
    clew) or facing away from them?
    
    Also, the main has triple reef points along with a movable block on
    the boom to adjust the clew angle. Does one normally keep only one
    reef line set up, or two (the first one is then used for the 3rd reef
    if neccessary).
    
    For the clew end, do most you folks use those cute S hooks to go through
    the clew grommet, or do you tie off the working end with a knot or a
    seperate cleat?
    
    Finally, my outhaul currently consists of a 20 year old peice of 7/16'
    line from a hole in the boom cap through the clew and then knotted off.
    This does not look legit, nor does it make outhaul adjustments easy.
    I am thinking of putting another cleat at the end to tie off the
    working end. (boom end starting to look like a coat rack with all these
    cleats!) Any better suggestions?
    
       thanks 
    
        john

See also Note 1647 for additional discussion of mainsail reefing.

    I have used both the regular hook and the circular thing.  The big
    disadvantage with the regular hook is that you are using all three
    hands holding lines, sail, boom, etc. and the last thing that you need
    is to have the reef point fall off.  On the other hand, try as I might,
    I cannot get my sail to sit properly on a circular hook.  I alsways
    stand at the mast getting soaked musing over should I do it this way or
    that.  On balance,if I was not going to a single line system I would
    use a regular hook and not worry about the twist/strain on the sail.
    
    Re. the ouhaul, I had that discussion going a year or so back and that
    may be where Alan pointed you.  The upshot for me was that if you have
    a flattening reef use that instead of the outhaul.  This interesting
    piece of advice came initially from the Notes conference but was
    subsequently confirmed by Dennis in "Sail like a Champion".
    
    Obviously Dennis is getting into the Notes file and using the wisdom to
    write his books.   So we should now open a note on how to win the
    Freemantle - Aukland leg !

    I reef two boats, my own and a 32' Benateau I race on. My boat uses a
    cunningham for the tack. When it's time to reef I release the
    cunningham from the cleat, go forward (line run to the cockpit) 
    and move the hook up to the next tack point. Then I can use the
    cunningham to pull my luff tight after I let out some halyard. 
    On the Benateau, there is a hook like this ? on both sides of the boom. 
    I use whichever hook is convenient and unoccupied and then re-tension
    the halyard. 
    	But your question about what to do with the clew leaves me unsure
    about what you are doing with it now and suspecting that may be why
    your reefed sail looked like a bag. The tacks are different, but on
    both boats, the clews are the same. The clew reef line does not
    terminate at the clew. I run the line through the clew and then tie 
    the end at some point on the boom which is approximately under where
    the new clew will end up. You really have to have the force pulling the 
    clew down on to the boom or your sail will be out of control. I am
    reminded of one day when I was out (in my 22' S2) in the same general 
    area as an islander 33. Because they had incorrectly reefed their main 
    they were out of control, rounding up and I was sailing circle around 
    them single handed. 
    	I've seen, but never used the circular reefing horns.
    	Your outhaul, I'd want to see it turn through a block and go to 
    a cleat.  
    
    	Geoff 
    
    I prefer the entire reefing system on the Benateau, but it's so much
    easier when someone is driving. 

	Re: 1055.28

	I used to sail on club Pearson 26s and recall never being able to 
	decide how best to get the reefing point over the hook. 
	One doesn't want such puzzles when the wind is rising...
	It always seemed to be messy when done.

	When I bought a CD-25, I had reefing installed on my main by
	Fortune Inc Falmouth ME. I took them the boom and the main. 
	They installed what they considered appropriate.

	They added two 'horns' to the gooseneck, one on each side.
	A strong short strap with a steel ring on each end goes through
	each reef point. One pulls down the sail and slips a ring over
	each horn. At least it is obvious what to do. In a blow one 
	doesn't have to think - its obvious.

	Its not perfect however, a ring can come off a horn just as I 
	crank the winch to tension the main halyard.

	A more serious problem which you must try to avoid
	has nothing to do with the use of rings: When the mainsheet has
	been let out (to spill air and reduce tension on the reef lines) 
	and the boom is sticking out over the water, the 'horn' on 
	the leeward side is almost touching the mast. It is then
	very difficult get anything over the leeward horn.

	Mike