Conference unifix::sailing

    Okay, here goes, but neither this noter nor Digital Equipment
    Corporation assumes any liability for the direction contained herein.
    
    First, remove the stove from the boat and experiment at home - outside
    with pleanty of water nearby.
    
    Fill the alcohol tank 2/3 of the way with fuel alcohol (methyl,
    not isopropyl).  Never completely fill the tank - it won't pressurize.
    
    Turn the burner off.
    
    Pump up the primer (the long shaft in the middle) about 15 or 20
    strokes.  You should begin to feel some resistance as it pressurizes.
    
    Open the burner valve until the little metal dish UNDER the burner
    fills about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way with alcohol.  Turn off the valve.
    
    Ligit the alcohol in the dish UNDER the burner and wait until it
    all burns.  It's vaporizing the alcohol while it burns . . . a little
    scary, even after you get used to it.
    
    Hold a long match to the burner and slowly open the burner valve.
    You should have a nice blue to blue/orange flame all around the
    burner.  Adjust the flame, but don't open it too far or you could
    wind up squirting raw alcohol into the flame and causing a flare
    up.
    
    When you're finished using the stove, be sure to open the pressure
    relief valve and depressurize it.  The valve is usually a pointed
    metal cap on top of the stove itself.
    
    Alcohol doesn't burn very hot, so it seems to take forever just
    to boil water.  If you run out of fuel, DON'T refill the tank until
    the stove has cooled down completely and you're willing to put
    your hand on top of the burner.
    
    Better still, dump that sucker and buy propane or CNG.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Adam

    I have a two burner alcohol stove on my boat (Hunter 25.5) which
    does not have any of the pressurization gizmoes that note -1 is
    talking about.  It contains two large donut shaped metal containers
    filled with a cotton batten type substance and a screen mesh over
    the hole on top.  liquid alcohol is poured into the container basically
    until the cotton batten type material is saturated.  The stove has
    a sliding cover which slides over the hole to requlate the size
    of the appature, so to speak.  The operation is easy.  You light
    a match and touch it to the screen mesh on top, it ignites the alcohol
    vapors and you adjust the volume of the flame via the sliding cover.
    Covering it entirely will extinquish the flame.
    The stove works very nicely.
    I'm not sure I would like a propane or similar type gas fuel on
    board in pressurized containers.

RE:.0 by TOPDOC::FENNELLY

> Unfortuneately the previous owner had lost the booklet for it. When
> he explained it he just said "just pump it up, put the match to
> it and there you go." I'd like a little more detail, if there is
> any. 
> Does anyone out there have such a stove and know how to safely use and
> maintain it?

I need more information on the stove.  Can you discribe the burner?
Adam (.1) is talking about the basic el-cheapo model where the burner looks
kinda like this (side view).


            ________
            @@@@@@@@
         \============/
               **
               **
               **
               **
            -------

Is this what you have?

I could show you how to operate one safely,  but I agree that they need
TLC,  and can scare you if you do something dumb.  His solution of propane
is worse than the problem.  If you do something dumb with propane,  it may
not scare you,  it may kill you.  CNG or Compressed Natural Gas is safe
and very expensive.  There are also better alcohol stoves of at least two
different types that are quite nice.


Phil

True, a propane leak can cause an explosion, but, I gather, alcohol 
stoves are indeed a if not the major cause of fires aboard boats. A 
properly installed propane stove is quite safe and propane is much
cheaper than alcohol for the same amount of heat output. Upgrading an
alcohol stove to a propane stove is quite expensive, though. Having had 
both, I much prefer propane. Besides, the smell of alcohol tends to make 
me seasick. 

Alan

    Sorry for the lack of detail - I didn't realize there were different
    types.
    
    The stove has 2 burners on top (which I believe look like the ones
    drawn in 962.3; there seems to be a little "saucer" that the alcohol
    would flow in to) and an oven underneath.
    
    Coming out of the back of the stove are 3 lines (one from the oven
    and one from each burner). These 3 lines feed into a clear plastic
    tube attached to a cylinder next to the stove. In fact, I can see
    some liquid in the clear tube. Laying next to the cylinder is a
    little pump which I guess I'd have to attach. As I said, I haven't
    tried to do anything with it yet.
    Does this help at all to identify the kind of stove I'm talking
    about?
    
    kathy
    

    You in fact do seem to have the type Adam referred to.  I had one
    of those on our first boat.  Honestly, if that was a good as alcohol 
    cooking got, I would have converted to Propane years ago.
    
    I had only one really scary incident with mine (in addition to lots
    of flareups, and very poor heating).  I had filled the preheating
    bowl and lit it when a boat came whizing by the marina and caused
    most of both bowls to spill onto the counter top.  Lots of flames.
    Fortnately I happened to have just finished washing the boat and
    the dock hose was close by and pressurized.
    
    I have been using a Hillerange 3 burner stove with oven for 5 seasons
    now which is alcohol powered.  I find it VERY safe and trouble free,
    it is a snap to preheat, and is quite effecient compared to the
    old Kenyon.  I have also heard positive things about the pressureless
    stoves, if you want to consider a simple replacement.
    
    Walt
    

    Note 668 and its replies (CNG vs PROPANE Stove/Oven) contains a
    good deal more opinion and information about the great debate on
    on-board cooking.
    
    Carl

Alcohol (methanol) is lighter than air. If it leaks inside your boat it will
evaporate and disappear out the hatches over time.

Propane is heavier than air. If it leaks, it will collect in your bilge,
where it will wait for a spark or any other excuse to explode. (Some
propane installations include propane "sniffers" that will shut down the
propane at the tank when they detect propane in the cabin.)

Compressed natural gas (CNG) is also lighter than air, but it is a gas at
room temperature. (This is the same stuff the gas company delivers to your
house through the gas main.)

An alcohol stove is typically designed to turn the alcohol to gas before feeding
it to the burner. This is normally done by feeding it through a heated pipe
where the alcohol boils off into a gas. This is why it is necessary to
preheat an alcohol burner. The idea is to dribble a *reasonable* amount of
alcohol into the little bowl under the burner, and light it to heat up
the burner. If the burner is hot enough, the alcohol will come out as a
gas, rather than as a liquid, when the valve is opened. You light this gas,
and use this flame to do your cooking. Until you get the hang of it, it is
best to verify (with a flashlight) that no liquid alcohol is coming out
of the valve. If additional liquid alcohol is collecting in the bowl, then
the burner is not hot enough, and you should repeat the procedure. With
a little practice, you will be able to judge whether the burner is hot
enough by the sound of the gas coming from the valve.

As indicated in an earlier note, alcohol does not burn very hot. I suggest
you get some experience with making coffee, soup, etc. before trying to
cook anything more substantial. It is definitely possible to cook a good
meal on an alcohol stove or in an alcohol oven, but it does take some
practice.

--RS

    I've had both kinds of alcohol stoves-an Origo "can" type and a
    Kenyon pressurized model (206 was the model number).  The pressurized
    was far better for controlling the flame-particularly when you were
    heating something like a can of beans, etc.  If you have an alcohol
    with an oven, PLEASE CHECK ALL THE FITTINGS for tightness.  I know
    a person who burned out his Catalina 30 in Boothbay 2 years ago
    because of a leak in the oven.  Once an alcohol fire gets away from
    you (as in spilled fuel) it's tough to put out--unless you have
    plenty of water.  On my current boat, I've gone CNG.
    
    JS

    
    I have this kind of stove on my boat; the directions state to fill
    the "bowl" 3/4 full;  the bowl is a slight depression at the base
    of the pedestal.  On mine, there's a time delay between the time
    you shut off the control knob and the time the alcohol visibly
    stops building up in the bowl, so go cautiously!  it's a lot easier
    to add more than to try to get rid of excess safely.
    
    It's also wise to move the control knob quickly to the "clean"
    position, which causes a needle to clear the alcohol outlet (at
    least on mine), and then to fill the bowl.
    
    Alan mentioned cooking outside...  my wife and I made a few meals
    with it over the winter in our kitchen; it added a *lot* of confidence
    in using it and in attempting to cook more than hot water.
    
    It's *very* important to cover the burner with a pan while it's
    heating up;  "cheapo" stoves like these can flare up to frightening
    heights even under ideal conditions.  A pot over the top distributes
    the flame and you won't worry so much about making broiled curtains
    for dinner.
    
       - jim
    

    I also have a Hillerange (2 burner+stove).
    
    I have tried for several months to get the original blue flame back
    into my cooking.  The orange flame usually means not enough air
    mixed in, but I cannot seem to correct the situation by cleaning
    or replacement of parts as suggested by the factory.  
    
    Walt, Have you experienced this on your Hillerange?
    
    Hank

    re: .1 and .9
    
    Both notes mentioned the use of water to put out alcohol based fires.
    I seem to remember that one should use dry chemical type extinguishers
    to put out liquid based fires.  Doesn't this also apply to alcohol??
    I know that alcohol will mix with water, unlike gas and oil, but
    I suspect that splashing water into a burning liquid of any kind
    would do more to spread the blaze than put it out.
    
    

    RE: .11
    
    I have only had one time where the flame wanted to burn orange,
    and that was when moisture had been absorbed into the alcohol.
    It was also difficult to light.  I added another gallon of alcohol 
    to the tank which reduced the problem untill the contents could be 
    used up.  After that I made it a point to always keep some positive
    pressure in the tank and system.

    RE: .12
    
    Water is recommended for alcohol, a stream might splatter so spray
    would reduce that risk.  Either way, water cools alcohol AND is
    absorbed quickly which eliminates the vapors needed to burn. Dry
    chemical can smother, but may not cool, so the fire can restart.
    
    Walt

    I have just bought a Pearson 30 foot Coaster. This boat has a two
    burner alcohol stove (make unknown). Needless to say, you folks
    have opened my eyes and scared the you know what out of me. 
    
    I have looked in the BOAT U.S catalog, West's and Goldberg's catalogs
    and have not found and CNG stoves.
    
    I would like additional information on CNG stoves (no oven) and
    an idea what two burners would cost. Who deals in CNG equipment.
    Any other information.
    
    
    Thanks
    
    Paul

    Forget my note .14
    
    I just read the notes and replys in 668.
    
    No I'm more confused than ever.
    
    I'm going solar.
    
    Paul

    For what it's worth,  I have an "Origo" spirit cooker aboard Club
    Wine and although it takes an age to cook anything I've never had
    any trouble with it.  It doesn't have a pressurised tank, works
    off drip feed instead.  A friend has one on his boat too, as do
    lots of others locally.
    
    Brian

    I have a Paul Luke two burner gimbaled propane stove (with oven)
    for primary cooking and a Sea-swing alcohol stove for cooking stews,
    soups or just coffee under way.  The Sea-swing has the "el-cheapo"
    type of burner unit refered to elsewhere.  
    
    My strong vote would be to go with propane!  It is much easier to
    use, costs far less, and is safer in use than alky.  While propane
    can lie in the bilges and explode, this is a very unlikely situation
    if reasonable care is taken with the installation of the system,
    and the system is properly used and if a bilge blower is routinely used
    to ensure that there is no build up of gasses over time (a good
    practice in any event).  Alcohol, on the other hand, is dangerous
    to use because it involves directly manipulating the fuel and because
    an alcohol flame is invisible in sunlight.  This, coupled with cost,
    the noxious odors put out by alcohol, and the much longer cooking
    time associated with alky really put me off.

    As the originator of this note, I'd like to say thanks for all the
    feedback. I think we've decided to ditch the stove - there are just
    too many unattractive features to it such as the fire potential,
    long cooking times, and fumes (especially since I have a tendency
    to get seasick even when I'm breathing fresh air!).
    
    *Kathy*

    Has anyone converted their alcohol stove/oven to propane burners?  In
    .4 it was noted that this would be quite expensive, but this was
    written three years ago.  A good propane stove/oven is upwards of $1K;
    a conversion kit could't cost that much could it?
    
    Any thoughts on where to get started on this?

    re .19 
    
    I have never seen a alcohol to propane conversion kit.  Most of the
    alcohol stoves in use today are on older boats.  With such a difference
    in the two fuels the only thing left after such a conversion would be
    the frame work and shell of the stove and oven.  One would need to
    replace the fuel storage lockers, fuel tanks, all plumbing, each
    burner and burner valves.  In addition add fuel regulators, electric
    fuel shut off and leak detectors.  I do not think this would meet any
    safety specifications or regulations.  I would recommend either staying
    with alcohol or a total replacement.
    
    My previous boat had a alcohol stove/oven.  The danger is in lighting
    the burner when you fill the cup under the burner with raw alcohol and
    burn it to get the alcohol in the tube on top of the burner hot enough
    to vaporize the fuel.  This process usually results in six inch flames
    for a few minutes.  A trick I learned was to preheat this tube with a
    propane torch with a pencil flame before any alcohol is turned on. 
    After a minute or so with the torch the tube is so hot that when you
    turn on the alcohol it is immediately vaporized, producing a normal
    cooking flame.  This proved to be a very safe way to light either the
    burners on the stove or oven.  It removed any hesitancy we used to have
    when using a alcohol stove.
    
    Chuck

Re .19

Your estimate for a good stove/oven is high. You should be able 
to buy a quality unit for about $500. Granted, you can find 
stoves in the $1000 range but--

A friend of mine just converted over and his cost for a stove 
from Marine Exchange was $500. However, the cost of the tanks, 
storage locker, hose, fittings and so forth probably cost 
another $500. But as noted in re .20, that cost would be the 
same if you were successful in converting from alcohol, a task
I do not recommend.

Marine X has numerous used stoves that they are selling on 
consignment that could further reduce your cost. Good luck--

Joe

    My second Kenyon alcohol stove (thanks to Dave Carter) is now beginning
    to show signs of distress (i.e. flaring, difficulty starting,
    difficulty maintaining the characteristic blue flame associated with
    gas vs. alcohol fluid burning, etc.). 
    
    Thus far, I have been unsuccessful in determining the exact cause of
    the problem. I've tightened fittings, replaced the fuel in the tank,
    checked the cleaning needle, etc. I also had hoped to salvage my old
    systems parts, but some minor differences in models will probably 
    eliminate that option. 
    
    Anyway, although I am going to try out a few more ideas, I am probably
    going to eventually succumb to having the stove repaired. Does anyone
    know any places that currently repair alcohol stoves in Mass ? Marine
    Speculators USED to, but doesn't anymore.
    
    Signed,
    
    JC (who's getting a lot of home pressure to go propane this winter)
    
    
    
    

    Hey Jc,
    	I don't really know how alcohol stoves operate, but in one of my
    other seasons I sometimes backpack. When I'm backpacking I run a
    whisperlight stove which runs on coleman fuel/white gas. The problem
    you describe sounds an awful lot like my whisper light when it's
    clogged. What happens is that I have a fuel wick in the fuel tube, 
    which looks a lot like a piece of stainless wire with a blob of silver
    (or some high temp) solder on either end to keep it from fraying. When
    my stove behaves as you describe all the jet cleaning in the world
    won't help it. I even observed my jte in an SEM to confirm for me it
    was clean. What happens about every 2 or three years, just long enough 
    for me to forget, is the fuel wick gets glogged. I pull the wick out of
    the tube, and clean it with a Scotch Brite pad. It goes from looking
    seriously corbon clogged to just looking super heated (black to blue).
    As I said, I am not familar with alcohol stove operation, kind of fond
    of propane when I don't need to carry the tank on my back, but if you
    have any such element in your stove and haven't cleaned it this could
    be one last direction worth looking in. 
    
    Good luck
    Geoff

re .22:

The pressure to convert to propane may disappear once you do a cost 
and labor estimate.

:-)

    re: .24
    
    Ridding oneself of frustration is sometimes worth $$$. I went 
    through the alcohol stove routine and upgraded to kerosene and
    finally, after frustration upon frustration, converted to
    propane. It was worth the cost. Being able to light a stove
    without priming, without the risk burning up the boat is 
    something that I was happy to pay for. It got to the point
    where I was either going to put propane onboard or go 
    without a stove.
    
    Joe

    Well, I was able to get the stove working and thus far it seems to
    be performing with no problems. Bill Corkum gave me a little more
    technical and financial education about conversion. WOW, its quite the
    project. Maybe, we'll just buy a different alcohol stove if our current
    one bites the dust. 
    
    Better yet, maybe I should just buy a boat with one already installed. 
    Ya, thats the ticket !
    
    JC
    

    I have been looking through this old note with a view to replacing my
    LPG 2-burner cooker, which has now reached it's sell-by date. If I fit
    another gas cooker, I really should modify the locker where the gas
    cylinder is stored so that it is sealed from the bilges & drains
    overboard, which would be quite difficult. I was considering an alcohol
    cooker, but this note has put me off. What about the Origo (sp) spirit
    cooker mentioned in a couple of notes - what fuel does it use ? Does it
    smell in use ? Is it easy to use ? I don't think CNG is an option in
    the UK, only LPG is available - all heavier than air & therefore
    dangerous in a boat.
    
    	Thanks, Ian

The Origo uses alcohol.

It's very nice, super easy to use. There's no pressure, so no flammable stuff
spraying out at you when you screw something up :-) It's virtually idiot proof.

It makes a fairly hot flame for an alcohol stove. The burner units are flat
cans with an absorbent mat that holds the alcohol. The geometry of the cans
is such that no alcohol comes out when they are tipped. An adjustable flat
flat covers the opening and a lever moves it partially or fully off the
opening to allow you to light the alcohol. To shut it off, merely move the
lever to cover the opening.

Judging by its mechanical simplicity, it's wildly overpriced, but you can't
buy a better stove for less money.

--RS

I will second the statement about theOrigo two burner stoves.  

Mine came with Holiday II.  I have only had cause to use it a half dozen or so
times.  Only two of these were underway and then in 1 foot seas.  The other
times were at anchor.  

It heated up the coffee, and Dinty Moore stew just fine.  We have proven that it
is not fool proof though.  We have some closed foam gaskets which we lay over
the burners when not in use.  This allowed us to go all summer with just two
fillings of the resevoir.  Anyway, we managed to try to light one of the
gaskets.  We also have to let the stove cool off before putting the gasket over
the extinguished burner.

Since I did not buy the stove seperately, I can not comment on the cost
effectiveness.  It does not burn as hot as my Svea camp stove, but then it is
not subject to sputtering either.

Doug Claflin
dtn 592-4787

    I'll third that.....and add, the origo will not leak fuel even if
    upside down! unless you over fill it.  each canister holds more than a
    quart and will burn for about six hours on one refill. They do tend to
    evap out even when the rubber covers are laid on the holes, if you
    leave the boat for a an extended period.  figure full to dry in 3
    months.                              I even use for a fast heat up in
    the winter when I want to work aboard.
    
    Best stove on the market.
    

    The answer to the question about does it smell is, for me, yes. 
    When we cook a meal and have both burners going we get a distinct odor
    of alcohol.  Alcohol fumes don't bother Ilze, me, or the cats too much,
    but some people have problems with alcohol fumes.
    
    We use the standard alcohol which is available in the U.S. in most
    chandleries.  I am awaiting some information from a company which
    advertises in some of the boating rags, claiming their fuel doesn't
    produce a distinct alcohol smell.  I suspect the alcohol they sell is grain
    alocohol or something.  I think the stuff at chandleries is denatured,
    so has a large amount of moisture which gets released into the boat's
    atmosphere when the fuel is burned, or when the fuel evaporates.
    
    To heat a pot of water to make coffee takes the same time as it does
    at home to heat the same quantity of water on an electric burner on the
    range, when starting both stoves from stone cold.  But, the electric burner
    at home wins hands down after it gets past the initial start up.
    
    I switched from a pressurized alcohol stove to the Origo a few years
    ago.  We use the stove extensively, and have also tried to light the
    foam burner cover.  We had a decent pressurized stove as far as those
    things go.  I had two main motivations for changing from the old stove
    to the Origo.  The hissing noise the pressurized stove made when it was
    in use bothered my ears.  And, at least as importantly, everybody else
    who ever came aboard the boat, refused to light the pressurized stove,
    leaving me to perform that task.  
    
    We mounted the stove on the outrageously over-priced Origo gimbal kit and 
    use Origo potholders.  In any condition where I felt like being down-below,
    I have been able to use the stove and keep the pots on the stove. 
    
    If I were buying a new boat, I'd specify a gas stove.  When I replaced the
    original pressurized alcohol stove with the Origo, I looked into the
    amount of time and money which would be required to switch to gas. 
    Since I don't plan to keep elysium forever, I went with the Origo.  If
    I had intended to keep the boat for many years, I'd have amortized the
    cost of time and money to get the hotter, drier, less odiferous gas
    stove.  As somebody else in an earlier reply said, you can't buy a
    better stove for less money.  Ours is used extensively and still works
    like new, with no maintenance.  Except for discoloration of the top
    surface and some charring on top of the fuel canister/burners, it still 
    looks like new.  
    
    djc
    

    Let me throw my 2cents worth in here. I have used the Origo on a
    chartered boat and found it to be all things which have been written 
    in previous notes.
    
    On my little boat, I have a single burner butane stove. Yes, its single
    burner, yes it is expensive fuel ($3.75) for 1bout 80-90 mins of
    high heat, but it works like a champ. Couldn't be more convenient.
    For $50 you get an instant light (built in pizeo starter). One just
    drops the fuel canister in the compartment, flip down the lock can 
    lever and turn the burner to "light". Not even any matches. The whole
    thing weighs maybe 5 lbs and can easily be used in the cockpit or on
    the foredeck. The fuel is heavier than air. I keep mine in a bag which
    hangs from the lifelines. And it puts out lots of heat.
    
    For single burner convenience, you can't beat it. Buying two of these
    guys for under $100 might be a solution for some. I'm sure it is more
    expensive to operate than for alcohol.
    
    Bill
    

    Thanks for all the info - I am now sure I will go for an alcohol cooker;
    probably the Origo, but you are right - it is very expensive for what
    it is. Plastimo do something similar which is about half the price, but
    unless I got similar vibes to your notes on the Origo, I will be more
    confident paying the extra. Incidently, my gas cooker has a grill; how
    do you make toast on a 2-burner-only cooker ?
    
    Thanks,   Ian 

I have one of the old fashioned toasters for a flame.  This is an up-side-down
"V" shaped sheet of perferated tin.  Place one piece of toast on each side.

I have never used one of these on the stove.  I have had "OK" sucess on a 
bed of coals.  You have trouble getting a nice even toasting at the degree
you want.  Repeatability is a real bear.

Doug
dtn 592-4787

    Hey, a Scottish toaster!  You havta use it correctly.  When you drop the
    cover quickly, the bread slides down so thewarm side is out. The
    closing the cover puts the cool side in (but upside down now)to the heat.
    The secret is many flips until it's the way you want it.  About every 20 
    sec or so when your start getting close.
                                                                             
    	My Gramma MaCammond brought one of those over.
                                                                             

    Agreed, the Origo HeatPal is excellent at about $120. We've used ours
    for cooking and as a cabin heater and it works well as both, but here
    are the disadvantages:
    
    1)	The alcohol is very expensive. The Origo seems to burn all night on
    a filling of about a quart, but that means only 2-4 nights for a
    gallon, at about $8. Somewhere there must be a source of significantly
    cheaper alcohol?
    
    2) A partially used bowl of alcohol evaporates after a few days. I like
    the idea of a gasket to fit after use to block the evaporation.
    
    3) The Origo needs a good non-slip base or method of holding it in
    place on the cabin sole.
    
    We have CHG (Compressed Natural Gas) for cooking, and although much
    safer than Propane (lighter than air) it's a real problem if you do any
    more than US coastal sailing, because you can't get refills easily.
    Sometimes you can't get refills on Continental USA! Also, although we
    have two of the large size tanks, and make light use of the stove
    (using the barbeque and microwave where possible...we live aboard), we
    end up getting both tanks refilled every 6 weeks, which is completely
    unacceptable for us. It's perfect, I'm sure, for the recreational
    sailor.
    
    Therefore, the only practical thing for offshore sailors who live
    aboard, we find, is propane and we will convert.
    
    As for stoves, many people we know recommend the Seacook on a gimbal in
    the cockpit, and we are seriously considering one of those, too.