Conference unifix::sailing

    Sounds luscious; Giles was one of the greats of the period. Get
    it surveyed before you do any dreaming. Are you enthused about the
    task of yearly maintenance on a classic wooden boat?
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    re: .1  [am I ready for the work?]
    
    Good question!  I plan to store this (or some other) in my driveway
    which is about 200 yards from where it will be when in the water.
    I have a good deal of experience working with wood (furniture and
    houses) though not with wooden boats.  I figure my proximity to
    it off season will ease the annual maintenance 'burden' considerably.
    
    In season will also be somewhat helped by being close to it but
    my real concern I guess is how much the in season work impacts sailing
    time.  My preference would be to do as much as possible, as well
    as possible in the off season to minimize in season work.  With
    glass you can get away with this strategy.  Is the same
    true of wood or is there more of a low level year round work load?
    
    Is it the right boat?  That's the million dollar question.  I want
    cruising comfort.  To me that means a smooth seaworthy ride under
    sail and some degree of comfort on the hook.  With this boat I think
    it may be four stars on sailing and somewhat cramped in port.  I
    enjoy being in a gunk hole as much as sailing to it so .......
    

    One of the most striking differences between most boats designed
    before the '60s and '70s and current designs is the amount of living
    space crammed into a given length. Classic boats often have much
    less space, due both to narrower beam and lower waterline length
    on a given overall length. For instance, the 36' boat I'm building
    has 11' beam and 31' waterline length. To find a '30s era boat with
    11' beam and 31' feet on the water you usually end up looking at
    something around 42'.
    
    These remarks don't apply to working heritage boats like the Bristol
    Channel pilot cutter or a Colin Archer design. You can make a good
    rough guess by looking at beam, waterline length, and draft rather
    than the usually quoted length overall.
    
    And, once again, get a survey...
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    A friend of mine owns the APPLEDORE out of Little Harbor, NH, a
    wooden, 60' staysail schooner built in 1974.  Under sail she 
    seemed a lot quieter going through the water than a glass boat.
    As far as maintenance, the decks required a watering down 3 times
    a day, the toe rail was oiled once a week, and all the painted
    wood surfaces, especially corners/joints, checked for water
    penetration then chipped or scraped and repainted.  I am not
    sure of the frequency of the paint touch-up but would estimate
    it at every 3-4 weeks. 
    If I lived aboard as he does, or within 200' of where the boat was,
    I would be sorely tempted...
    Tom
    

    Is the name of this boat "Tilly Twin?"  If so, or if it
    ever was, my family often cruised with her owners of
    15-or-so-years-ago.  She is a lovely cutter, and Raymond
    Brogan was meticulous about upkeep.  A master carpenter
    in his own right, he kept the boat in perfect condition.
    
    An excellent ocean-going sailboat, Tilly Twin 
    was extremely fast for her length, but at 7 foot draft,
    she could not get into a lot of "gunk holes."  Ray Brogan
    eventually sold her -- with tremendous trepidation -- as
    his family was just getting too big.  At the time, he was
    sailing with his wife, two daughters and two sons -- youngest was
    3.
    
    If you don't buy her, please send me the name and address
    of the owner -- I know someone else who would think seriously
    about the purchase -- Pat Brogan, Ray's son.

    Cheers,
    Dean F.

    One of my colleagues and I bought a 39' loa Laurent Giles Sloop
    about two months ago.We were lucky in that the previous owner had
    virtually rebuilt it so it is in near perfect condition.It sails
    beautifully especially when the wind gets up and is reasonably easy
    to handle. As we are both novices this is important.As far as
    maintenance is concerned we cant really comment because of the
    condition of the boat but if it passes the survey and is moored
    in your back yard I am sure that your enthusiasm for it will have
    you rubbing it down with cotton wool and generally falling in love
    with it.My only experience apart from "whooper" is on racing boats
    and I would definitely advocate the older heavier and more comfortable
    boat for cruising.Being long and thin these boats have nothing like
    the Interior roominess of modern boats,but at sea at least this
    is not a disadvantage.If you do buy it please keep in touch.Our
    boat dates from 1938 so is probably very similar.

    Thanks for all the replies.  I've been on vacation so I didn't have
    a chance to respond before now.   The boat's name is (and always
    has been) 'Verity A'.  I had her surveyed and have put a deposit
    on it.
    
    The boat has undergone almost continuous rebuilding under the current
    and previous owner.  Her condition now is better than most of what
    I saw for 20 year old fiber glass boats.  The hull is so fair that
    you must look closely to see that it is not plastic.  
    
    The owner claims to routinely hit 8.5 knots under sail with this
    boat.  It is only 26 feet on the waterline but with long overhangs
    that probably give it more like 32 feet LWL to windward.  One thing
    that is really striking to me for such an old boat is the rig. 
    It is a tall (45' above deck) double spreader rig that looks more
    like something you would expect on a modern flat out racer.  The
    tallness and cutter rig neccessitate running backstays which don't
    thrill me but the options this gives you in the foretriangle compensate
    somewhat.
    
    You can actually rig a genny, working jib, and staysail all at the
    same time so I'm not sure this is technically a cutter anymore.
    Probably in in 1937 this was considered a flat out racer but by
    today's metrics it is a solid cruiser.

re .7:

>>>    The owner claims to routinely hit 8.5 knots under sail with this
>>>    boat.  It is only 26 feet on the waterline but with long overhangs
>>>    that probably give it more like 32 feet LWL to windward.  

Routinely? Methinks that the owner is overly optimistic. Hull speed for
a 26' waterline is 6.8 kts, 7.6 kts for a 32' waterline. Pushing heavy
displacement hull past hull speed takes some doing. My 26' waterline
cutter (a modern design, 12000 lbs displacement) has only done over 8 
kts surfing downwind in a gale and very occasionally over 7 kts upwind 
in a flat sea. Still, enjoy!
  
>>>    You can actually rig a genny, working jib, and staysail all at the
>>>    same time so I'm not sure this is technically a cutter anymore.

Technically, my understanding is that a cutter is a single masted boat 
with the mast at or very near the center of the boat. My cutter's mast 
(32' LOA) is a foot forward of the center of the boat, making the 
spinnaker pole 15' long. We usually sail with a 100% jib, staysail, and 
main. Tacking our 133% genoa around the staysail stay is an exercise in 
patience. Still, I like a cutter rig and prefer it to a sloop for 
cruising, though I would avoid running backstays as we usually sail with 
a crew of two.

You'll like it.

    re .8:  Hull speeds
    
    How do you work them out Alan?  In spite of my tuning problems (947)
    I routinely cruise my 20 footer at 6+ knots without trying too hard
    and have averaged 7.5 over 2-3 hour periods in the past.  Mind you,
    my displacement is only 800Kg at most ....
    
    Brian

    Hull speed for DISPLACEMENT hulls is 1.3(sq rt of the waterline).
    this is based on the hull moving through the water. Once you get
    up on a plane there are other physical rules (laws?) in play. 
    
    Ed

 	I used to sail on US one design which had a hull configuration
    similar to what you've described.  We never got much over about
    6 1/2 knots to weather.  But off the wind in a breeze we routinely
    pegged the knot meter at 8 knots.  Used to blow right by the J24's
    that were planing.  We would still be in displacement mode.  Of
    the 38 loa, all but maybe two feet at the tip of the bow would be
    immersed.  
    
    	Steering got to be hazardous under these conditions because
    of the poor visibility.  We'd sink so low into our wave trough that
    we couldn't see very much in front or in back.  It was like sailing
    in a hole.  This wasn't the only problem.  Since these were old
    wooden boats which were poorly maintained, the planking worked
    vigorously when the hull was stressed.  There were times when the
    boat could have gone faster but we ran out of room for all the hands
    required to bail.
    
    	

    I have seen hull speed formulas in many forms.  One commonly used
    formula is a constant times sq. root of LWL where the constant is
    given as a range (usually 1.2 to 1.5).  There are so many variables
    involved it boggles the mind so I personally don't put a whole lot
    of faith in any of them.
    
    My point in mentioning the speed was only to show the unconventional
    nature of this boat.  After all if you are going to cruise it what
    difference does a knot make.  This boat is very skinny (9' beam
    on deck) very long (38' LOD) and I don't have any idea how much
    of that length you can turn into water line length (without sinking
    her).  You also have close to 1000 sq ft of sail area available
    so who knows what it will do until you sail her.
    
    A more interesting discussion might be in the relative speed potential
    of boats that are designed for racing to a rule vs. boats that ignore
    the rule and instead are designed for seaworthiness (I include speed
    as a factor of a seaworthy boat).

    
    re .-1  boats designed for speed vs sea-worthiness
    
    isn't the whole idea behind the IOR restrictions to encourage boat
    designers to build sea worthy boats that have good performance?
    
      - jim
    

RE:.13 by ECAD2::FINNERTY 

> isn't the whole idea behind the IOR restrictions to encourage boat
> designers to build sea worthy boats that have good performance?

No,  it is to measure speed.  See Seaworthiness by C. A. Marchaj (page 101
Chapter 6).  All boats with the same rating are supposed to be as fast.


Phil