Conference unifix::sailing

    Well, let me take a crack at some of these questions, mainly to
    "goad" some of the Notes readers who are more experienced at cat sailing
    that I into replying.  I'll have to admit that my catamaran experience
    is limited to sailing Hobie 16's and a few rides on a Hobie 18.
    
    >  How do you tack something that wide?
    
    Probably the same way as a smaller cat.  You backwind the jib and
    let it push the bow around.  If you release it too early the boat
    stops altogether and the helmsman is helpless to get it around.
    
    >  How do they do spinnakers?!  Do they do spinnakers?!
    
    While down in Newport a couple of years ago I was checking out a
    large cat that had just finished an ocean race (FORMULA TAG I think
    it was called; green, Canadian, and about 70 feet long).  Now that
    I think about it, there wasn't any sign of a spinnaker pole, and
    looking at the pictures I took of the boat, there's no place on
    the mast to put one.  So I'd have to presume that if they use a
    spinnaker at all, it's not in the same sense that monohulls use
    one. 
    
    >  Where will they keep the instruments and computers?  What kind
    >  of instruments are used on big cats?  Will they use computers?
    
    I'm sure they'll use computers. Don't see any reason not to.  They'll
    probably use the same kind of instruments that you use on any other
    high-tech sailboat (FORMULA TAG had LOTS of instrumentation on board,
    with digital read-outs at the helm, mast, and cockpit stations).
    As to where they'll keep them, in the hulls of course.  I doubt
    they'll have berth space down there, like the ocean racers.  But
    there's plenty of room down there for sail storage and nav stations.
    I'd assume they'll put dual nav stations on the monster, just to
    keep the naviguesser on the windward side all the time.
    
    >  What will the starts be like?  What will the course be like?
    
    Starts will probably be upwind, like always (well, at least at THIS
    level).  If they're smart, they'll make the course as much of a
    reach as possible.  Monohulls can't keep up with cats on a reach,
    but I'd put money on the monohull if there's a lot of beating and
    running involved.
    
    >  If that thing pitchpoles, will the crew need to file flight plans?
    
    Could be.  I once saw a Tornado do a violent pitchpole, and the
    crew was positively airborne.  However, it really depends on how
    it happens and the point of sail they're on when it happens.  I
    know that unless you REALLY bury the leeward bow, when you pitchpole 
    in a Hobie it's a piece of cake, because everything just kinda slows 
    down while you have time to say "Oh sh*t", unbuckle your trapeze
    harness, and pick a spot in the water where you want to land. However 
    I've never seen anything this large pitchpole, so it'll be really 
    interesting to see what happens if it happens.
    
    
    OK, there's my 2".  Let's hear what some REAL cat sailors think
    now, eh ???  (John K., you out there ?!?!?)
    
    ... Bob

> How do they do spinnakers?!  Do they do spinnakers?!

A fast cat goes downwind faster on a reach_jibe_reach than with a run in
all but lightest of winds.  The faster the cat or the higher the winds, 
the lower the apparent wind angle, and the less use for a spinnaker.


Phil

    AHHHHHHHH..... NOW WERE TALKING RACING!!!!!!
    
    
        Sure they make spinakers.  built a bit different
    to create a bit of uplift so as not to pitchpole the cat going
    downwind.
    
        How do they jibe???   GREAT!. One of the easiest ways
    to tell a seasoned cat sailor from an ex-monohuller is to watch them
    jibe fearlessly. A Cat has no weight to speak of compared to a
    monohull which has all that ballest in the keel. Because of this,
    it will instantly accelerate the minute the boom comes over and
    you don't have to worry about breaking the mast. In fact, the jibe
    will make the boat accellerate because of the released energy of
    the boom. On light air days, you can beat another boat downwind
    just by jibing several times instead of just once on the downwind
    leg .
    
       cats never go straight downwind unless there is zero wind and
    they are using the tides, this is because we reverse our sails and
    use jib as a main and the main as a jib. We keep the boat at an
    angle to the wind and do reverse tacking.Even with a spinaker, they
    will angle it so that they can get up on a plane. Distance means
    nothing to a cat racer, it is the apparent wind that he is concerned
    about.
    
       The Forumula TAG cat is a monster. I've got this Digital 1986
    calander with all the big cats in it (thanks Reed) and the 
    cross bar is about 3 feet in diameter. When they get this big,
    they have more than enough weight to tack. Also, the bigger cats
    have "real" jibs like the monohulls with allow them to point higher
    to begin with. With a smaller boat, you just fall off a bit to get
    some speed, pinch it up, and very quietly tack it. 
                                                 
       The real question is can the crew cope with such an animal should
    it get really stormy. That crew is really exposed on that machine.
    It looks really easy to fall off the wire, and then Mr Connors will
    be doing a 360 real fast. If the waves get too big (+10 ft), then
    the tack becomes much more difficult since you must then pivot on
    top of last one of a set, else you will go into irons. Not having
    the weight does have a couple of disadvantages. At that point you
    can either back her around (very unlikey considering the size of
    that jib), or fall off and either try again, or pull a quick 270
    onto the proper course. On a small boat, any of these manuavers
    requires split second timing amoung the crew. With so many people,
    it wouldn't take much in storm conditions to cause havoc.
                                                             
       I'll still take the cat thank you. Look at the tactical advantage.
    Lets say Mr Conners decides for the first time in his life not to
    be aggressive on the line since the cat is not all that nimble.
    Lets say the maxi gets in front. So now what is the maxi going to
    do???   Should it try to cover, but that would be stupid. the cat
    is not going to point as high as the maxi was designed for, so the
    maxi will not be in ideal conitions. Instead, Mr Conners falls off
    15 degrees and go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay outside on the course picking
    up speed at the same time. Pretty soon, no more cover. Then he tacks
    and falls off a bit heading for the first mark. The race is over.
    And if you remember Perth, Stars and Stripes used it's boat speed
    in all but that famous tacking duel. This time the difference
    will be even greater. You cannot race a planing hull against a
    displacement hull and expect to win in any conditions. the only
    thing the Kiwis could do is glue a new hull below the water line
    to turn their boat into a killer Sydney-18 . Now here we are talking
    about a monohull/catamaran race.!!!!
                  
    john
    
    

re: -.1    
    
>>> It looks really easy to fall off the wire, and then Mr Connors will
    be doing a 360 real fast. 

Mr C nor any of his crew will be out on a wire.  Unlike on a Hobie, they
are a relatively small percentage of the total displacement.   (These are 
H-cats, remember!)

>>> Lets say the maxi gets in front. So now what is the maxi going to
>>> do???   Should it try to cover, but that would be stupid. the cat
>>> is not going to point as high as the maxi was designed for, so the
>>> maxi will not be in ideal conitions. Instead, Mr Conners falls off
>>> 15 degrees and go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay outside on the course picking
>>> up speed at the same time. Pretty soon, no more cover. 

The Kiwi boat apparently can to better than 1.5 times windspeed.
That's not a slow boat, even compared to Dennis'.  Dennis may choose to 
trade speed for angle to escape a smothering cover, but it's probably 
not going to be as cut-and-dried as you suggest.

BTW, the cat *is* designed to point nearly as high as the mono, albeit 
at less effciency than angling off a few extra degrees.  The top modern
racing multis (tris especially) can now point just as high as the IOR
machines; their only "problem" is that they go so fast the apparent wind
forces a wider course upwind.  But sailing closehauled, the best of the
multis will match the best of the monos in weatherliness and still be going
faster, for many rational reasons. 
    
Check my note in the America's Cup topic.

J.

    RE .4
    
         John , saw both of your notes on Stars and Strips II. I also
    read the June 13th article in Sports illistrated yesterday (some
    great photos). According to the story, the first time out, Dennis
    had it doing 16-24 knts in a 8-11 knt wind. Sounds very fast.
    
         From your discussions at the multihull meeting, did anyone
    seem concerned about about tacking? I would image that if the
    boat speed is kept up, one could turn S&S II like a sports car
    just by retrimming the wing/sail while turning through the wind.
    It has got to be faster than 40 people running down one side of
    the Kiwi hull and up the other before trimming. And at almost twice
    the length of my house, it has got to take some time and distance
    to tack that monster. 
    
         Also, how does one get out of irons if it should happen? Can
    they control which side they wish to fall off to each time?
    
         Finally, you are correct, they do not have wires, but I noticed
    the tramp is nothing more the a high tech cargo net with elastic
    bands woven into it for more spring. I would think that bounding
    to the other side in a tack would be troublesome if the waves started
    washing through it. (A life line may not be such a bad idea for
    each crewmember).                     
                    
     this is starting to look interesting.

    RE .5
    
>>> From your discussions at the multihull meeting, did anyone
>>> seem concerned about about tacking? 

    No.  Or at least Randy and Alex expressed no concern about it.

>>> Also, how does one get out of irons if it should happen? 

    At least with the solid wingmast, "in irons" almost doesn't apply.  
    Randy says they get drive, diminishing at the end of course, all the
    way up to just about dead into the wind. 

Your observation about tramp netting reminds me of a slide he showed, of 
that extremely high-tech boat head-on with netting so slack a crewman was 
sagging nearly to the water's surface.  They fixed it.

>>> I would think that bounding to the other side in a tack would be
>>> troublesome if the waves started washing through it. 

    They're in much more serious trouble if sailing in weather strong
    enough to raise more than a foot or two of chop! 

John.

    re .6
>>        They're in much more serious trouble if sailing in weather strong
>>    enough to raise more than a foot or two of chop! 
    
    John,
    
    I'm confused. does your comment mean that the cat is in trouble
    if the seas are more than 1-2 ft? What happens if they get any wind
    at all for a period of several days that could build up some seas?
    I thought the basing the design on the large ocean racing cat would
    make her able to handle the seas better than this. 
    
    Is it the small design window?
    Am I missing something? (I hope!!)
    
    Ed
    

    re .7

What I meant to imply is that waves of over a couple feet take winds 
higher than 15 kts to produce them (so I assume in the San Diego Bay area).  
Since this cat is not designed to sail in over 15 kts wind without 
feathering her sail and giving up a lot of potential in order to stay 
upright, and it is presumed the K-boat can sail at her potential in 
something more than 15 kts, the idea is that in higher winds the Kiwis 
will already have an advantage.

And yes, the K-boat almost sure will be less affected by a stiff chop than 
the H-cat would.  

Winds or storms offshore may produce swells, but they won't affect the
boat the way a large chop will.  The swells tend to carry a boat over them 
without much fuss, though they create a problem in constantly changing the 
apparent wind direction enough to require non-stop adjustment.

In fact, the design is not at all based on large ocean racing cats.  It is 
based on C-class and D-class cats (hence the H-class designation given to 
this outsized freak), which are definitely designed for and sailed in 
protected waters where rough chop is not meant to be a factor (even if 
occasionally they have to deal with it.)  The size in terms of length and 
beam doesn't at all reflect on sea-keeping ability, any more than it does
on stability, weatherliness, or many other factors one could name. 

The size does two main things:  1)  It allows a longer waterline, and 
since these cats are displacement hulls (not planing hulls), particularly 
at low to middling speeds, length is the vital key to speed.  2)  It
allows carrying a larger rig, which both provides the drive to overcome
frictional and wave-making resistance, and also to just plain get higher
up where the breeze tends to be both faster and steadier, away from the
ground friction and turbulence.  This last point, BTW, is one of the
reasons (among others) why many experts favor the K-boat in light airs,
since the breeze may be doing 1 kt at 8' above sea level, 1.5 kts at 68',
and 2.0 kts or more at 148'.  The 80'-100' mast height differential is not
insignificant when it comes to finding zephyrs. 

John.

re .8

>>> The 80'-100' mast height differential is not insignificant when 
>>> it comes to finding zephyrs. 

It is unreliably rumored that the Kiwis have a light air gaff mainsail 
under development. Wow, think of the drive that will produce in a 
zephyr!