Conference unifix::sailing

Ouch. Glad you weren't more seriously hurt.

The line leading onto a winch should lead slightly upward onto the winch
drum. This ensures that the load on the line pulls the winch drum
downward onto the winch base. There should be a (small) gap between the
drum and the snap ring (circlip) keeping the drum on the winch mainshaft
when the winch is under load. The snap ring isn't, I suspect, strong
enough to keep the winch drum on the mainshaft against a large upward
load. From your description of your accident, I wonder if you pulled
sideways on the halyard between the winch and the halyard exit slot
(assuming internal halyards). Or does the halyard lead down onto the
winch drum? If the snap ring weren't fully seated in its groove, it
might easily slip off, allowing the drum to come off. A fully seated
snap ring should withstand a few hundred pounds of side load. Unless you
grossly distorted the snap ring in removing it, it shouldn't have been
weakened. If the snap ring were fully seated in its groove, and failed,
I would think that you'd see some damage to the groove. If the groove is
undamaged (sharp corner on the upper edge), then I'd guess the snap ring
didn't fully seat. I'd also guess that Barient will claim user error
unless presented evidence to the contrary (which will be hard to find). 

The Barient model number indicates (or used to) the safe working load on 
the winch. As I recall, the 10P has a plastic drum or at least some 
plastic parts. You might want to consider upgrading to a larger, all 
metal winch. I'd consider a Barient 10 a tad small for your boat (but 
then I am a believer in big winches and little effort).

    
    
    
    
    	A friend of mine owns a O'DAY 28 and his mast winch froze, he
    contacted Barient and they sent him a new winch at no cost, you
    might try contacting them about your incident. 

    I recommend sending the entire account in .0 to Barient.  As a minimum
    you should expect a new winch at no cost.  Twelve stitches isn't
    a trivial injury and there was potential for more.  Barient should
    be keenly aware of the potential for litigation here and should
    be more than willing to make amends.
    
    It's gotta be worth lots to them not to have .0 appear in the letters
    to the editors section of Yachting, Sail, or Cruising World.
    
    - gene ho

    Don't know if this would have prevented the injury, but I always
    suggest to friends to remove the winches from the side of the mast
    and relocate it to the deck with the halyard running through a turning
    block.  The expense is minimal and seems to prevent the incidence
    of main halyard snafus.  Besides getting your face out of the way
    it provides a much better grinding position with the body on top
    of the winch.  
    
    Sounds like a freak accident.  We have Barients on Fat Tuesday (albeit
    in much larger sizes) and love 'em.
    
    While we're on the subject of trashing bodies on boats, I have a
    favorite piece of advice.  Try to get in the habit of avoiding putting
    your body inside the "vee" formed by a line under load going through
    a turning block.  This way when the block explodes you will not
    be in the way.  Sounds stupid until you see it happen. Not pretty.
    
    Dave

    RE .4
    
    Good advice on the turning blocks.  We had a genoa car blow last
    year during one of those late season races when the wind was doing
    25 knots and the #3 was cranked in tight.  Never even saw the thing
    land it went so high.  Thank GOD nobody had their body in the way.
    And when you look at the car and figure out how it's put together,
    all you gotta do is have that little screw in the side back out
    and it's gonna blow out on ya.
    
    We also have Barients on WAGS (eight of 'em) and have never experienced
    any problems.  However, I will tell you that after reading this entry
    I'm going to double check the lock rings on every one of them tomorrow 
    night before we race, just to be on the safe side.
    
    Paranoid ???  Maybe, but it's better than having a failure when
    you got the thing under load.
    
    ... Bob

    
    	This is speculation (of course) but you said that you've done
    some kind of maintenance on these winches/had them apart.  Alan
    has already said a snap ring that hadn't been seated completely
    could fly out of its groove, however I believe snap rings fatigue
    with reuse.  I don't know what the recommended reuse count would
    be, but I'm sure it would be easy to find out, just a suggestion.
    I *_KNOW_* that cotter pins and Nyloc nuts have very low reuse counts,
    personally I use 0 for cotter/split pins and 1 for Nylocs, they're
    cheap enough, given the cost of everything else we do.
    
    	R
    

Barient snap rings come in two sizes (or so the contents of my repair
kit indicate). Assuming that the snap ring fails in shear, a reasonable
guess is that the smaller ring should withstand an 1800 pound load. The 
snap ring is quite thin (0.023 inch) and flexible with a fairly large 
diameter. It needs to be distorted very little to remove it from its 
groove. (Many bearing retaining rings, etc, are quite thick and stiff 
and are quite hard to remove without permanently distorting them.) I
would think that it could withstand quite a large number of careful
removals and reinstallations without damage. By the way, on some Barient
self-tailing winches (eg, 10 and 19), the arm that strips the line from
the winch drum is screwed onto the winch mainshaft and thus keeps the
winch drum on the shaft. The snap ring isn't really necessary on these
winches. 

Re gear failure: It should be obvious, but I'll say it anyway. If a 
block or winch or whatever fails under load, don't replace it with an 
identical block, etc. Use the next size bigger. If the original failed, 
an identical replacement will most likely fail, too.

Offhand, (in the absence of any concrete evidence) this accident appears
to be the result of an improperly seated snap ring. Sometimes these rings
will seem to snap into place, but in reality, only one side has snapped
into the groove and the other side is still sitting on the shaft. It is
very important when re-assembling these systems to verify that the
retaining ring is perfectly seated. An audible click is not, by itself,
adequate evidence that the retaining ring is properly seated.

--RS

    A friend of mine had his new Barient 23st fly apart the first time
    he had the boat out for a sail, luckily no one was hurt.  What really
    scared me about that particular accident is that they were using
    that winch the previous day to hoist a man aloft to repair the mast
    head fitting!  I've always insisted on using two winches for hoisting
    anyone aloft, one for the bosun's chair and the other attached
    to a safety harness worn by the person going aloft.  Having a winch
    blow apart when I'm 50 feet off the deck is not my idea of a fun
    time.
    
    My Barient 23st winches seem to be very sturdy and the retaining
    cap is screwed on and only comes off with some amount of force with
    a special tool.  The first year I took them apart I made the mistake
    of taking all the pieces out, cleaning them and replacing them.
    I had one piece upside down so the winch didn't work.  Since then
    I've been very careful to keep as much in place as possible, and
    always keep the pieces oriented exactly as they were as I clean
    and regrease them.

    re .1: I'm glad you were not seriously injured, reading your account
    of the incident put some healthy fear into me.
    
    As I've been updating my boat for offshore racing I upgraded almost
    all of the blocks with harken big boat blocks.  The person responsible
    for buying the original equipment for the Freedom 32s is a friend
    of mine and gave me a real hard time about overkill.  It seems to
    me that the forces on those blocks are such that having some extra
    strength is good insurance.  I've stopped being intimidated by people
    that seem to think they know everything and go with my gut, after
    all it is I who am ultimately responsible for those stepping onto
    my boat.  I was appaled at the shackles that were put on the initial
    harken blocks, the pins were bent and worn after one year!
    
    Pam

    
    	Hmmmm, if this was due to an incompletely seated or fatigued
    snap ring, as we have speculated, then it would seem to be a design
    problem.  If it CAN BE assembled wrongly, or if repeated disassembly
    and reassembly fatigues critical parts, then it is certainly a design
    problem.

    I received this input from a non-noting friend ...
    
    I have smaller Barient winches for my halyards. Mine have a push button
    release rather than a screw, so if someone was sticking a finger in
    they could release it. Then when a load is applied the drum could pull
    off. Could something like that have been the cause? 
 
    Now its one more thing for the check list!
 
    Bill
 

    Thanks to everyone for the inputs regarding my winching 
    accident. Here's whats happened since.....
    
    I contacted Barient in Connecticut (now a part of IMI - International
    Marine Industries ?) and, after hearing my story, they were very
    nonsupportive about the incident. Basically, the gentleman I spoke
    with implied that it HAD to have been my fault; and secondly, when
    IMI acquired Barient a couple of years ago they COMPLETELY redesigned
    the winch because of previous problems (he didn't elaborate) ! 
    
    To paraphrase, and without using all the correct part terms,
    Barient/IMI believes the "explosion" was caused by the internal
    core portion of the winch "freezing" up. As the winch was turned, it
    compressed the central core (?) until a point was reached that the
    compression factor forced the core outward (since it couldn't turn
    or get smaller). The winch will freeze if not properly maintained.
    Barient will not consider a design flaw unless I can send them the
    winch :>) 
    
   The new winches do not have this design flaw.
    
    I had reordered a new replacement winch via Marine Speculators, but 
    upgraded the order to a all metal 10C version after talking with O'Day,
    Isomat (they haven't changed winch size), and considering Alan's comments.
    Incidentally, 10P refers to plastic internal parts; 10C to chrome;
    and 10A to alloy. 
    
    When the winch arrived, I discovered it had five mounting holes
    vs. four for the old version. So, I figured I had better order a
    new winch pad too. Turned out I didn't need one. Although the holes
    didn't match, there was enough "meat" on the existing pads to drill
    new holes -- which I had Marblehead Trading Co. perform in case I had
    future problems AND since two of their riggers both agreed that
    I wouldn't need to replace the pads. 
    
    Also, when mounting the winch, Marblehead Trading Co. discovered
    that the NEW winch was DEFECTIVE. 3 of the 5 cast mounting holes were
    CRACKED. Deciding to examine my other existing winch -- 2 of the
    mounting holes were cracked on it as well. So, I ended up returning
    the new winch for a replacement AND ordering a second 10C. I will
    be returning my old 10P winch to Barient as well - I expect to be told
    that it was improperly mounted. Hmmmmm.... what about the new metal
    ones with the same problem..... 
    
    Just got both winches mounted last week. Got to spend lots of time motoring
    around Marblehead the last couple of weeks (Alan, you are NEVER on
    your boat :>) ) and raising sails without winches -- building character
    I think its called.
    
    The new winches work GREAT !
    
    During all of this, most everyone I've spoken with speaks very highly
    of Barient, and defects seem to be VERY rare.........
      
    Thanks again to all.
    
    JC