Conference unifix::sailing

    Ron,
    	Its sounds as though you may be off to a bad start. If I understand
    your description correctly you must have a fairly thick patch on
    the outside of the hull. If this is the case I don't know how to
    effect an estetically pleasing finish. I think you may be better
    off grinding it all down flush to the hull and finishing with gel
    coat. The structural integrety should come from the patch on the
    inside of the hull. 
    	If you were starting from the original hole in the hull I would
    recommend that you bridge over the hole from the inside. I would
    use several layers of woven glass rather than matting. The void
    between the patch and the external hull surface could be filled
    with a mixture of chopped fibre and resin followed by Marine Tex
    and finally gel coat. The plan is for the final gel coat layer (which
    is fairly thin) to just come up to or slightly excede the hull surface
    so that it can be feathered into a fair surface.
    	Starting from where you are now, I would grind off the excess
    on both sides and lay in a woven glass patch on the inside. On the
    ouside I would probably over grind a bit to form a slight depression 
    then fair it with gel coat or Marine Tex/gel coat.
    	The preceding procedure is only my description of how I would
    attack the problem. I am a self taught hull patcher with limited
    experience so don't take my word as gospel. I would suggest investing
    in one of the many books on the subject and also talking to several
    people to get multiple opinions. 
    	I hope this helped more than discouraged you.
    Paul
    

    Paul,
    
    I thought of that and did get discouraged when looking at the original
    problem.  There are 4 layers of woven glass inside covering the
    hole - the hole as cleaned out and cut to solid glass.  My sense
    at the time was that this would hold fine, but I needed a better
    exterior to prevent peeling back of more woven glass. 
    
    Perhaps Gel-coat instead of the MARINE - TEX might be the answer.
     Any tips of gel-coat?  Apply with a brush? spray? plastic spatula?
    Never seen the stuff in its liquid (paste?) form.   Time needed
    to apply and cure??
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Ron
    

>>> There are 4 layers of woven glass inside covering the
>>> hole - the hole as cleaned out and cut to solid glass.  My sense
>>> at the time was that this would hold fine, but I needed a better
>>> exterior to prevent peeling back of more woven glass. 
    
A couple of comments: Usually fiberglass is laid in alternating layers 
of woven fabric and mat. Adjacent layers of fabric don't adhere well -- 
adjacent layers of fabric and mat adhere much better. The edges of the 
hole need to be ground at a very shallow angle to maximize the bonding 
area (just like scarfing wood). 

From your description, it sounds like the hull may have delaminated in 
vicinity of the hole -- ie, the bond between the layers of fabric or 
fabric/mat has broken. This is the usual situation. Shine a very bright
light through the hull. If the hull has a milky appearance near the hole
but not elsewhere, then there is probably delamination. If there is,
you'll have to grind out the delaminated area as well. Gel coat has 
virtually no structural strength -- its function is to provide a glossy, 
pretty surface and to protect the underlying fiberglass from ultraviolet 
degradation. 

Epoxy resin is both stronger and easier to work with than polyester 
resin and epoxy bonds well to cured, sanded polyester (but not visa 
versa). 

    As far as making Marine Tex presentable, just keep sanding with
    progressively finer grits of wet dry until the patch is feathered
    in with the surrounding gel coat.  The color may not match but the
    patch should not discernable by touch.  With rubbing compound, Marine
    Tex can be made to shine as much as gel coat.
    
    Another way to tell if the hull is delaminating around the patch
    is to tap it with your hand.  If there is delamination, the tone
    should sound much softer than the distinct sound from an area known
    to be solid.  When the boat is hauled, a delaminated area will often
    leach fluid for weeks afterwards.
                                                 

    grind it down with progessively finer paper. I ussally get down
    to about 200 grit. Instead of screwing around with gel-coat,
    get some two part expoxy paint and feather in a couple of very
    thin coats. Wait a couple of weeks and wax the area. You will never
    know the difference. I covered a white marine tex patch with yellow
    expoxy paint, and the only way you would have know it is for me
    to point it out to you from 6 inches away on a really sunny day.
         
    john
    

    I have delamination on my balsa cored deck. The area is about the
    size of your hand, it's soft and swelled up. 
    
    I want to remove the damaged layers and build it back up. I'm looking
    for advice on how to do this:
    
    * Good tools to dig/grind out the damaged area
    
    * What do you build it back up with - cloth? matt? balsa?
    
    * What kind of resin to use - polyester? epoxy?            
    
    * Any tricks to make the new gelcoat match the old non-skid surface
    
    Also, practically all my deck fittings are located wrong for
    racing and must be moved. Any prefered methods for filling in 
    old bolt holes?
    
    Thanks for any advice,
    
    Paul
    
    

Can you see the underside of the deck (ie, no headliner in the way)? If 
the balsa coring looks black, it's rotting and/or has water in it. Ugh. 
If the deck has swelled, you may have a rather large problem. I'd be 
surprised it the problem is limited to the swollen area. Take a plastic
hammer and start tapping the deck well away from the problem area.
You'll hear a distinctly different sound where the deck is delaminated 
and the core wet.

The top fiberglass skin is (on my boat anyway) the thicker skin. My
choice would be to attack the problem from below if at all possible. I'd
use a saber saw or sawzall to cut the fiberglass skin. If you do this
from below, you eliminate gelcoat color matching problems but create the
problem of working overhead. Remove all the wet/rotted balsa. Replace
with new balsa. Relaminate with polyester (perhaps the builder will give
you the matt/cloth layup schedule -- if not, alternate cloth and matt).
Alternatively, you could grind away the fiberglass skin (which makes
lots of not good for your health dust, so use breathing protection). 

If you do this from above, matching the existing gelcoat and non-skid 
may not be feasible (at any reasonable cost). When our deck delamination 
was repaired, we didn't even think about matching, especially since 
several areas, one maybe 12" x 36", were redone. The factory non-skid 
was sanded, and then all the non-skid areas were painted with Awlgrip 
with non-skid stuff mixed in. Excellent non-skid, but very hard to keep 
clean. We don't mind -- the factory non-skid was very slippery. 
    
Fill old bolt holes with epoxy. Seal all new holes with epoxy, too. 
Drill the holes oversize, fill with resin, and redrill after the resin 
cures. Tedious, but worth it.

Oh yes, have you had a surveyor look at your deck? Might be worth the 
investment.  

    On the odd chance the delam is restricted to the area you can see, the
    job may be a bit easier.  First, do as Alan says and check from the
    bottom to see if the balsa has rotted a lot.  If it is only a bit and
    you are convinced you don't have a major problem it is possible ( in
    small areas) to inject epoxy under the skin and saturate the balsa in
    that area.  The main problem is weight just where you don't want it,
    high on deck.
    
    Do yourself a favor and get it surveyed.  Those guys will outline the
    delam areas for you and have tons of experience judging how bad your
    problem is. If you tell him you only want the deck looked at I bet the
    job will be very reasonably priced.  
    
    As for old holes, use Marine-Tex or some epoxy filler.  Over fill the
    hole as it will shrink a bit.  Then sand.  Or don't sand.  Depends how
    picky you are about your deck's appearance.  Ours looks like swiss
    cheese.  
    
    Dave

    If this is your J-24, you don't have a headliner to worry about so it
    should be possible to access the damaged area from below.  I'd suggest
    trying to retain the top layer of laminate since the non-skid is molded
    in and can't be replicated unless you're a fanatic X-acto knife artist.
    
    The WEST epoxy people have a free brochure on fiberglass repairs that
    show how to fix delaminations.  The procedure is to drill holes in the
    damaged area, inject resin, press the glass back onto the core by
    putting weights on top, sand, and paint.  It may be possible to modify
    the procedure by drilling in from below and injecting up into the core
    and then proceding as before.  
    
    As a starter, I'd drill weep holes from below to allow the area to
    drain.  Then check the topside for unsealed holes, cracks, etc. where
    water might have gotten in.  These should be fixed first to prevent
    recurrence.  Poorly filled or bedded fitting holes are prime suspects. 
    Give it a month or more to dry out and ventilate the boat adequately
    to promote good air circulation.  If the discolored fluid stops oozing
    and the area seems reasonably firm, the injection method may work.  You
    may need cinder blocks on top and 2 X 4's braced below to persuade the
    laminate sections to rejoin.
    
    If it's really soft and fluid keeps weeping out of the drain holes
    after a month, it's probably time to remove the lower layer of
    laminate.  Believe it or not this can be done by scoring an outline of
    the damaged area with a sharp razor blade or utility knife.  Just keep
    going over it until you penetrated the glass, which will be
    surprisingly thin, and then pry it off.  If the core is seriously
    rotted, there won't be much holding it on.  Scrap out the mess that's
    been revealed, dry the resulting hole out, and re-laminate with new
    balsa.  The surface can be finished as desired.  If you're fussy, paint
    or gelcoat can be sprayed to closely approximate the original
    appearance.  Much easier on the inside since it's not patterned.  Also,
    booboo's don't show since no one in his right mind goes below a J-24.
    
    Good thing you're going move a lot of fittings.  This will give the
    chance to re-bed everything.  Got a bit of this to do on my own boat in
    a few months.  Not looking forward to it.
    
    - gene

    Thanks for all the info!
    
    Yes, the boat is a J/24. When my brother and I were looking it over
    two years ago, we noticed a 4" crease in the deck with new gel coat
    on top. The seller told us that an anchor had been dropped there - 
    nothing to worry about.
    
    Well last season the gelcoat patch cracked open and the crease started 
    rising up. We tried to limit the damage by adding more gelcoat but it
    kept cracking. Some tapping of the area revealed the problem is not
    very widespread, the area is a ridge about 5" x 2".
    
    Since the non-skid is already gone in the damaged area and I want to
    get rid of the ridge - is there still an advantage to attacking from
    the bottom?  Also I'm hoping the damage is not very deep, is this
    wishful thinking?
    
    Paul

    Sounds like you're the ideal candidate for a WEST injection cure, if
    the balsa core is not too far gone.  If the tops already a mess, may as
    well do the repair from that side.  When you drill out the holes,
    inspect core shaving that come out.  If you encounter black liquid and
    little solid material, forget the injection cure and just score and
    peel back the top layer.  
    
    Once water has penetrated the topskin, which is only slightly more than
    a millimeter thick, core deterioration will start and continue unless
    there's somewhere for the moisture to go.  The core is placed with the
    vertical grain perpendicular to the deck.  Once water gets in, it
    penetrates all the way to the bottom layer.  If you have to replace
    balsa core, is easiest to remove the entire thickness of old core and
    to replace it with a full thickness of new wood.  If the damaged patch
    isn't real large, you can just use a putty of resin and lightweight
    filler in lieu of balsa.  For a small area on my own boat, I got lazy
    one time and just poured resin into the cavity and just let it harden
    before glassing over it.  It's held so far.
    
    - gene

    Let me kick it a little further so the education is more complete.
    At least mine.What about during the fabrication of the deck, the topskin
    wasn't "glued" very well to the balsa and after a couple of years the
    topskin,starts lifting and showing a bouble on deck.Does that mean
    that somehow water went under? Now let me transalate the question from
    Greek if I can.
    Could the swelling on deck be bad workmanship or it has to be shippage
    of water that indicates delamination or rot? And if it is the former
    how do you know so you don't start making holes.Could any untrained
    ear will understand the tapping of the HAMMER near the swell?

re -.1:

Delamination may be due to improper gluing of the balsa to the outer 
skin during building (which was the cause of our delamination), it may 
be caused by thermal stress (in the tropics the expansion of the deck, 
especially a dark colored deck, may be enough to break the balsa bond), 
it may be caused by water getting into the deck and rotting the wood. 
Our deck was repaired, in part, by injecting resin. Some of the resin 
went a long ways and came out of some holes in the inner skin quite far 
from where it was injected (moral: keep all holes in the deck well 
sealed). Yes, the sound change from good deck to delaminated deck is 
quite distinctive.

    
Here's what happened with my "delaminated" deck. 

As I cut down into my 6" deck crack, I found nothing but mush. 
Total core rot out - it looked like beef stew. The rotted area was an 8" x 8" 
plywood cored section under a lifeline stantion. 

It seems the water seeped in through the stantion base bolts and saturated
the plywood. Unlike the surrounding balsa, the plywood grain runs horizontal -
a perfect sponge. So the crack in the deck was a symptom not the cause of the 
rot. 

After drying, I layed in a new plywood core and several layers of cloth,
West System epoxy, and high strength filler. This brought the level to just 
below the existing deck. For a non-skid surface, I followed the West System
method. I made a pattern of good nonskid deck, then pressed it down like a mold 
onto a final layer of epoxy and colloidal silica over the patch. 

It came out nice!

Paul

Does anyone can provide the WEST phone number 
to get the brochure .9 is refering to?

I rented the two videos someone refered to in here 
and yes they are very good but do not cover the 
exact need I have.

Can someone suggest a book on fiberglass repair, 
I went to my local library and could not find 
a single one that talks about fiberglass repairs.

Thanks,

Michel.

    WEST SYSTEM		(517) 684-7286

Alan Vaitses wrote an excellent book on repairing fiberglass books. 
Available from International Marine Publishing and elsewhere, no doubt.

        One month ago today, I went up to Jubilee Yacht Club in Beverly
        to possibly take a short sail on WINDSONG. The harbor was fogged
        in, but I took the launch out anyway to prep the boat for hauling
        the next Saturday.

        When I went below, I noticed that the 'white' VHF radio was
        mostly JET BLACK!

        I stepped back into the cockpit to checked the top of the mast
        and sure enough, the base coil for the antenna was just a small
        nub with a bit of wire hanging from it and the Windex was down
        across the top of the mast.

        I went back in the cabin and stuck my head down under the cockpit
        to check the main fuse and discovered water around the battery. I
        also could here some clunking on the other side of the plywood
        bulkhead in the cockpit locker.

        After checking under the cabin sole and finding more water, I
        went out in the cockpit and opened the locker to find more than a
        foot of water with all the fenders etc. floating around. It was
        about 1 inch below the top of the fiberglas portion of the
        bulkhead between the locker and the cabin. The water in the cabin
        was a result of the water in the locker sloshing up over the
        Fiberglas bulkhead and seeping down behind the plywood partition.
        The rear portion of the quarter berth cushions were also soaked.

        Seems the lightning had come down the vhf lead and the mast light
        wires.  Where there was a dip in the vhf lead some of the energy
        exited taking some gelcoat with it about 4 inches above the water
        line. It seems that the intense heat from the lightning causes 
        the residual moisture in the Fiberglas to literally explode.

        The VHF and my antique Sitex Loran were fried. From here the
        energy went every where. The bow light was blown off. The stern
        light was blown out and where the loran antenna lead went down
        across the bottom of the cockpit locker there were several more
        exit points. One of them bad enough to allow the water to enter. 

        Dan Rutherford of Ocean Marine Specialties was assigned by BOAT
        US and he showed up at 8:00am the next morning.(Sunday) and spent
        3 hours helping me de-rig the boat and making an inventory of the
        damage.

        Dan has suggested LAKES REGION FIBERGLAS in Belmont NH just
        south of Laconia on route 140.  Has anyone had any experience
        with these folks?

        My experience with Ocean Marine has been good, and BOAT US
        guarantees the work of approved vendors. I am prepared to tow the
        boat up there but would be more comfortable after hearing of some
        first (or second) hand experience.

        One of the reasons for the suggestion of Lakes Region Fg was that
        they have the special equipment to turn the boat over without
        stressing the hull in order to work on the bottom.

        When the hull work is done, we will be interested in
        recommendations for some one in the Marblehead to Cape Ann area to
        do the electrical work. The boat is to be completely rewired as
        well as replacement of all of the exterior light fixtures.

        For any body in the MRO area, I have a set of pictures in the
        office.  
        
	Thanks, Fred

    Fred,
    
    I haven't dealt with them myself, but whenever I go by, there are
    tons of boats there being worked on. I believe they do the fibreglass
    work for my boatyard (Fay's) which suggests quality work. It looks
    like a pretty good sized operation.
    
    If the insuror suggests them, I'd go with it.
    
    Regards,
    
    Bill
    

    RE .19
    
    I believe one of the guys here had his cruiser fixed there when a tree fell on
    it (he had pulled the boat for safety in Hurricane Bob). The work
    was really well done. Les is in Thailand for a couple of months, but
    I'll send him a note to make sure it is the same guy. Judging by the
    directions, it sure sounds like him.
    
    If it is, you can also ask if he will keep the boat over the winter. 
    That will save you winter storage charges toward the deductible..
    
    john