Conference unifix::sailing

>>>    I'm wondering how much people are thinking about how ozone depletion 
>>>    is going to impact their favorite activity.  

This is right there at the bottom of my list of worries. I give it about 
5 seconds per year.

    
    
    
    	Radiation Suits - another item on the list to add to the   
    			  boat this year.

    RE .0
    
    Judging from the last two responses I get the impression people
    aren't thinking much about it.  Unfortunately that sentiment extends
    right up to the highest levels of our government too.  Let's see
    how funny you think it is when your friends and loved ones start
    dieing from skin cancer.  I suspect that some of the earliest victims
    will be among those of us who spend a lot of time on the water,
    considering that that's the worst place for sunburns anyway.
    
    I seem to recall a quote from someone in the Reagan administration
    to the effect that the solution was just what you suggest - sun-block,
    full-coverage clothing, gloves, hats, and goggles.
    
    Perhaps that's just another price we pay for our current "prosperity".
    
    ... Bob

    Got enough to worry about re the things I can control.  As I recall
    the earth is cooling down and we're in for another ice age, except
    that CO2 is building up and causing the "greenhouse effect."  Either
    way, any changes in the shoreline due to expanding or melting polar
    ice caps will drastically affect docominium sales.
    
    Tin is another thing to worry about.  We pleasure boaters are polluting
    something or other with tin-based bottom paint so we can't use it
    any more.  It's a good thing that tin bottom paint on commercial,
    military and large pleasure craft don't pollute anything.
    
    How about them MSDs.  Got a whole heap of plumbing down in the
    bilge including holding tanks, mascerators and God knows what
    else.  Good thing though, because I sure do love tying up at
    all those pump out stations.Yup, they're almost as nice as
    the terrific sewage treatment plants in Boston and Providence.
    
    
    Now let's see . . . ozone.  Hmm, there must be something sailors
    are doing to cause that problem.  
    
    Flame off
    
    Encore

    
    
    
    	If you are concerned about the ozone, join BOAT/US 
    	($17) a year for membership. They have a lobby organization
    	in Washinton DC for boating issues.  RE note .2 just
    	trying to have some humor on a deadly issue, like Seabrook
    	they make great DR points on land and thats about all
    	they are good for.
    
    	richard

    
    	Yes, we're choking in our own swill down here on planet earth.
    
    But its a slow death,  made easier by the comforts of life that
    we surround ourselves with....

    	R
    

    I second .3!!!!!  As inhabitants of the earth, guests on this planet,
    we are responsible for the condition of our 'home'.  We may not
    be responsible directly for the Ozone problem but should this make
    us any less concerned?  If we have any compassion for fellow human
    beings we should care!  The ozone problem may not ever become a
    big enough problem in our life time but what about future generations,
    people that may just be our relatives!
    
    One other note...seems to me that what we need is constructive,
    thoughtful responses to different topics that help each other
    understand and learn.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding the 'tone of voice'
    behind some of the replies I read but I feel that often we are
    destructive instead of contructive and condeming of those with less
    knowledge in a certain area instead of helping them learn!

    
    You're right, -.1, that we should be concerned about our homes,
    and the ozone issue is a significant one.  But I think the point of 
    those who have entered flippant replies in this conference is this:
    this conference is about _sailing_, not about environmental concerns.
    The base note wondered what we, as sailors, thought about the ozone
    issue, and I agree with the other responders who have said that
    as sailors, they don't think about it much at all.  This doesn't
    mean that they don't think about it as responsible citizens of this 
    planet.  Because we don't want to talk about it _here_ doesn't mean
    we don't care, just that when re open the Sailing notes file, we
    want to talk sailing.  When we want to talk environmental issues,
    we do it in another file.
    
    Just my .02
   
     --John

RE:.0 by DELNI::FACHON

> I'm wondering how much people are thinking about how ozone depletion 
> is going to impact their favorite activity.  

This is a topic that has been discussed in BETHE::SOAPBOX_1988.  I think
at ozone depletion is an important topic, and I would love to have it 
restarted in the 'box'.

I don't think this is a good place to discuss it.

Please press kp7 and all that..


Phil

	Sorry to see that this note has been withdrawn,
since I agree that this is an important topic for this notes file.

	For me....its irreconcilable to be a sailor and not feel a deep 
connection with this planet. We are more tuned to the subtleties ........
	...wind shifts...weather nuances...positions of the planets and stars..
					........the harmony of it all.

	Perhaps the wording of the initial note prompted many of the 
"don't care responses". Personally, I don't spend my nights worrying about
this problem, but..... it is a REAL concern.

	When I am concerned, I act. My course of action is to belong to groups
(Sierra Club & AMC) which do sound the alarm and lobby the government for 
change. There are other things that we can do that will improve this situation
like avoiding disposable foam products.... coffee cups, etc.  I haven't done
as much possible; this note has made me ask myself...how much more can I do.

			Thanks for highlighting this important issue Dean.

					Rich

    RE .11
    
    Well put.  My sentiments exactly.
    
    RE .7
    
    Yes, one of the disturbing things to me about SAILING Notes is that
    there seem to be a few contributors who try to control what is put in
    this conference and who gets to participate by exerting strong negative
    opinions or making disparaging comments to certain entries.  The fact
    that the base note has been deleted is an example of how this inhibits
    some Noters from discussing what is to them relevent issues.  
    
    People don't deserve to be put down or taken flippantly just because 
    they want to talk about things you may not think are important (or more
    frequently because they don't own a "cadillac" boat, so they get to take
    abuse from the cadillac owners if they want to talk about Catalina,
    O'Day or Hunter).
    
    I've even seen attempts to limit replies to an entry by stating that 
    it's for "boat owners only", as if you have to own a boat to know
    anything about sailing.
    
    Too bad.  This often prevents a free exchange of ideas and viewponts
    on subjects that at least SOME of us think are relevent to the SPORT
    of sailing.
    
    ... Bob

    Can anyone suggest a list of products one can avoid that contribute
    to the reduction of the ozone layer?
    
    I don't know how much I can do to increase the ozone layer, but
    I can stop buying product that reduce it.
    
    Tom
    
    

    Anything with chloroflourocarbons in it.  This includes most aerosols,
    which use CFCs as a propellant, and styrofoam products.
    
    I've heard that one of the big fast food chains is moving away from
    styrofoam containers because of this issue, but I don't remember
    which one it was.
    
    I don't know how much we can do from a sailing perspective to affect
    a change.  Someone earlier suggested joining Boat/US.  I second
    that, since they do actively lobby on issues that pertain to the
    the sport of sailing, including environmental issues like this one.
    
    ... Bob

     
    
               How do you join BOAT/US? Who are they and what can they
    do for me as a new sailing fanatic.
    
                                              Randy
    
    P.S. My wife says if I don't start doing the yard work she'll sink
         the boat!

    I just joined BOAT/US last Friday, so I know just a bit about it.
    
    Its an organization somewhat like the AAA is for automobiles. They
    offer several member services like travel reservations, towing
    insurance, documentation service etc. They also operate fairly decent
    supply stores, with 'member discounts'. Actually the discount prices
    are about the same as James Bliss or other major marine discount
    stores, certainly better than your favorite 'waterfront' boatyard.
    
    Their literature does have a good bit about their Washington Office
    and its lobbying efforts. I guess I didnt read that part very
    carefully!
    
    They have stores in about 10 cities, the one in Waltham MA serving
    my area. Other cities listed on my form are Houston TX, Norfolk
    VA, Clearwater and Ft. Lauderdale FL, Beltsville MD, Detroit MI,
    and Cleveland OH.
    
    Membership is listed at $17 per year, but there is a 'boat show
    special' on now (no boat show around that I know about) for $12.50

    According to a recent survey of discount marine stores, BOAT US
    ranked just behind Defender and about on par with West Marine for
    mail order prices (shipped to east coast).
    
    I joined a few years ago.  I think the marine store discount was
    a better deal when there was no Mass. store (now I have to pay sales
    tax on the items I order).   The other benefits make it a worthwhile
    orginization to join without the marine store.
    
    Walt

RE:.12 by GRAMPS::BAILEY "Summertime gonna come and go, my oh my" 
    
> People don't deserve to be put down or taken flippantly just because 
> they want to talk about things you may not think are important 

I think there are important issues that should be discussed in other note
files.  There is little that sailors do that directly affects the production
or use of Freon that is not done by the general public.  And UV is an everyday
hazard of sailing, and hats, sunscreen and such is and has always been a
good idea...

Bob, want to come over to Soapbox and comment on topic 372?


Phil

    RE .18
    
    No I don't.  And just 'cause you don't think this entry belongs
    here doesn't mean everybody agrees with you.  What I do want is
    to see all the put-downs I mentioned previously stop.  If you
    don't like the topic, you don't have to reply.  You don't even have
    to read it.  But it's just plain wrong to inhibit others from
    exchanging their views through the use of put-downs and flippancy.
    I haven't seen that tactic used in other Notes conferences.  Why
    should it be tolerated here?
    
    I disagree with you strongly that the ozone issue should not be
    discussed as part of a sailing forum.  Obviously so do some other
    contributors to this Notes conference.  We ARE entitled to our opinion.
    And I WON'T be railroaded into silence by some of the egotists in
    this conference who have set themselves up as the people to decide
    what's appropriate and what isn't.
    
    ... Bob
    

    I DECIDED TO TRY AND STAY OUT OF THIS ONE BUT ..........WE SPEND   
    THE MAJORITY OF OUR TIME AWAY FROM SAILING AND THUS WHAT WE DO IN  
    OUR EVERY DAY LIFE DIRECTLY IMPACTS OUR LEISURE PUSUITS. I CAN'T
    CONFESS TO SPENDING A GREAT DEAL OF TIME WORRYING ABOUT OZONE
    DEPLETION BUT BASED ON CONVERSATIONS WITH OTHER SAILORS WE ENDEAVOR TO
     BUY ALTERNATE PRODUCTS FROM AIROSOLES ( EXCUSE THE SPELLING). 
    THE ENVIRONMENT IS KEY TO OUR PARTICULAR BRAND OF PLEASURE. 
    IF CONCERNED GROUPS YEARS AGO HADN'T DISCUSSED AND WORRIED
    ABOUT POLLUTION IN LONDON PEOPLE WOULD STILL BE DYING FROM THE SMOG
    AND THE THAMES WOULD BE DEAD RATHER THAN SUPPORTING A HEALTHY MARINE
    LIFE AND A PLEASURE TO USE. A TOPIC LIKE THIS WILL HAVE A NATURAL  
    LIFE AND IT IS BETTER TO AIR THE VIEWS SO WE CAN ALL EXCHANGE VIEWS,
     ALTERNATIVLY ONE ALWAYS CAN SIMPLY SKIP TO THE NEXT NOTE.    
    
                                                                       
    PETE WHO LIVES IN ONE DEMOCRACY AND SUSPECTS THAT THE MAJORITY     
    OF THE READERS OF THIS NOTE RESIDE IN THE KEEPERS OF THE FREE WEST.                         
                                                            
   PS EXCUSE THE CAPS I APPEAR TO HAVE AN ENHANCEMENT OPPORTUNITY ON
    THIS KIT.....                                                   
                                                 
                                             
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
         

    I opened the ozone issue, not because I wanted to start
    an argument over issues that we can not control,
    and not to fathom our collective responsibility as sailors,
    but merely to inquire what sailors might be thinking in
    terms of future precautions when sailing.  It is clear that
    what we do today will be insufficient very soon, and completely 
    inadequate in a decade.
    
    In additon to the accelerating health hazard due to intense sun
    exposure when sailing, UV radiation will degrade sails and other
    equipment at an ever increasing rate.  At some point, I would not be 
    surprised to see polarized laminates used in sail construction, and boat 
    covers will probably become more than just winter apparel.  These 
    are the types of things I'd been thinking were appropriate to discuss
    in this note.  Tangents into the larger problem were not my explicit
    intent, but they are certainly worthwhile -- although mind-boggling
    -- and where they're discussed should not be the concern.  
    
    I withdrew my note and follow-up when it became apparent we would
    not have a discussion on the issue as it pertains to sailing.
    I do have to admit that my anger was somewhat evident in my follow-up,
    but let me assure you that I was not cowed into withdrawing.  Indeed, 
    I can be every bit as arrogant as some of the detractors to this
    topic, but I withdrew because I did not want to promote confrontation.
    I'll save that for the starting line.  (You'll be able to recognize 
    me by my new wrap-around glasses.  100 UV absorbtion and no peripheral 
    leakage!)
    
    Yours,
    Dean F.
    

    The biggest impact on sailing will be no more freon foghorns.
    Maybe something else will come in the cans, or maybe the old
    lung powered models will come back.  Should be no problem, though,
    considering the lung power shown so far in this note.
    
    A serious issue, with no simple solutions.
    

    To tell you the truth, I've *never* heard a freon foghorn sounded
    on a boat! Only at football games and by kids in the street to scare
    people out of their wits.....  I have the lung-power type - with
    the dingy footpump linked via a piece of hose!

    re .22
    
    Falcons use freon?  Never thought to look, but I'm sure
    you're correct.  S___!  Do I feel dumb.  One can is probably
    worth a years leakage from an old ac unit.  They won't sail
    with me any more.
    
    As for falcon-type foghorns being the only casualty, don't
    bet on it.  See the ads for sunglasses in the current crop
    of yachting/sail mags for a haunting refrain on the ozone
    pollution issue -- and no, the ads are not merely marketing hype.  
    At the very least, EVERY sailor should have a pair of 100% UV 
    absorbing sunglasses.  Perhaps you already do, but do you wear them 
    at all times?  Anyone who doesn't should start getting religious.  
    
    re .23
    
    I've got an old WWII air raid siren -- hand held -- that might
    prove useful!

    ;)

    Note that the importance of UV filter sunglasses is not a sudden
    reaction to ozone layer problems, but a belated realization of the
    importance of UV filtering in the marine environment. There is an
    eye disease (I forget the name) which is induced by the combination
    of UV and (in effect) salt air which is completely preventable with
    UV glasses.
    
    Of course, this can only get worse if as the ozone layer
    deteriorates...
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    Recently, when my wife was at the opticians, having her glasses
    straightened, she asked him about sunglasses for the kids. He said
    that one doesn't need to spend lots of money. Just make sure they
    claim to filter 100% of the UV and are sufficiently dark. That is
    how he buys sunglasses for his kids. We have found sunglasses that
    meet those specs for $4-5 at the corner grocery store. Some at that
    price are not too rugged, but the kids tend not to take good care of
    them anyway. A couple of pair a year at that price is still affordable.
    
    Bill
    

    
    do polaroids filter UV?  if not, can they be made to?
    
       - Jim
    

    Hmmm.  I don't know if I'd believe the advertised "claims"
    on all glasses.  Certainly, watch out for anything that doesn't
    specify the percent of absorbtion.  Some glasses that claim to
    absorb UV actually damage the eyes because they absorb a limited
    amount while at the same time causing your pupils to dialate.  The
    result is that you actually take in more UV than if you'd worn no
    glasses at all!  
    
    Don't know about poloroids.  I have an old pair of Carreras I've
    got my doubts about too.  Anyone know of a way to tell?  I wonder
    if a place like "Pearle Vision" has a UV test?  Might be profitable
    if they did.  I'd pay $5 to know the rating of my Carreras.

    Stopped in to a pharmacy to pick up some sun-block.  The average
    price for SPF 25 to 30 was $8.50 for a small plastic bottle!
    I think that's a pretty hefty increase from last year.  Wonder
    why?  Can anyone recommend a clear sun-block with SPF 25 or better
    protection.  I bought some "Eclipse," and the stuff smears on
    white and does not rub in well at all.  Also very greasy feeling.
       

RE:.28 by DELNI::FACHON

> Can anyone recommend a clear sun-block with SPF 25 or better
> protection.  

  I would not recommend a SPF larger than 16.  Buy 16 or so and reapply
it after an hour or so, and you will get an effective SPF of 20+.  The 
problem with high SPF numbers is that I can't get an even cover.  I get
the patchy sunburn/tan.


Phil

    The active ingredient in all the suntan lotions I've ever seen is
    PABA, which I think stands for para-amino-benzoic-acid (or something
    like that).  You can buy PABA from your local pharmacy much less
    expensively than from Coppertone, inc., 
    
        BUT
    
    I'm not sure it's safe to apply it to the skin in this form.  I
    know people who have, but I have heard rumors that this is 
    unhealthful.  Does anyone know if this rumor is true?  If it is
    true, how do the suntan lotion companies 'cut it' (and with what)
    to make it safe again?
    
       - Jim  (Irish Mist)
    

    Honestly don't know about PABA, but I do know there are
    sun blocks that specifically say they do not contain PABA.
    Would lead me to think there may be some problem with
    too high a concentration.
    
    FYI:  In addition to the hole in the ozone layer over the Antarctic,
          scientists have discovered a hole over the north pole.
          This was not unexpected, but it is cause for added concern.
          Because of coriolis, there is limited mixing of the atmosphere 
          in the northern and southern hemispheres.  Because the northern
          hemisphere is far more heavily industrialized, this could well
          mean we will have accelerated depletion relative to the southern
          hemisphere.  

>    Honestly don't know about PABA, but I do know there are
>    sun blocks that specifically say they do not contain PABA.
>    Would lead me to think there may be some problem with
>    too high a concentration.
    
There's an article on sunblocks in this month's Consumer Reports. It says
that PABA is irritating to some people. It also says that many sunblocks
now use a different (but similar) active ingredient.

CU says that price and lotion/gel/liquid characteristics are the major
differences between brands. They also mention that most people apply the stuff
too thinly to get the rated protection.

--RS

A couple years ago I picked up a big bottle of "No-ad" SPF 15 lotion at
a drug store.  CVS or something like that.  It cost less than $5 and was
something like 12 oz.  The bottle was pinkish, and had "No ad" in
big white letters on it.  I am still using it.  Name-brand sun lotion is
too expensive.