[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference unifix::sailing

Title:SAILING
Notice:Please read Note 2.* before participating in this conference
Moderator:UNIFIX::BERENS
Created:Wed Jul 01 1992
Last Modified:Mon Jun 02 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2299
Total number of notes:20724

777.0. "question on shroud tuning" by STUD::HEUSS (Forward into the past) Wed Mar 23 1988 13:09

    I'm looking for some advice on tuning the shrouds on my O'Day
    Daysailer.
    
    Last year, I tightened them while the mast was up, but with sails down.
    I tightened both as equally as I could, and until both shrouds were
    quite taut.  I noticed that while on a tack, the lee shroud would
    become quite loose, but just assumed that this was a natural effect of
    the mast being deformed due to the load that the wind was putting
    on the sail.
    
    I just read an article in this month's SAIL about the subject and
    they suggested that you should do final tightening while the boat
    is underweigh, tightening the lee shroud on one tack, then tacking
    and tightening the new lee shroud by the same amount.
    
    The question is, how much is too much.  I don't want to tune the
    shrouds to the point where they fail, or worse, cause damage to
    the mast.  On the otherhand, I have a feeling that I left them too
    loose last year and that there is potential for causing damage to
    the mast, the tabernacle, or other related parts of the boat.
    
    

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
777.1Whistle a Happy Tune!!CSSE::GARDINERNo more Monkeys!Wed Mar 23 1988 16:5150
    See note #8 for a little different discussion, but worthwhile. 
    A couple of things you need to watch out for:  First, make sure
    that if your mast is stepped on deck that you won't put too much
    pressure on the cabin top by cranking down on the shrouds.  They
    can create a lot of tension if not properly tightened.
    
    Second, set up your mast and then use the Main halyard to judge
    the mast center.  To do this tie off the halyard so that the shackle
    can be brought tightly to one rail in line with the mast.  Then
    move to the other mast and see if the shackle touches the rail with
    the same pressure on the halyard.  When you have this even the top
    of the mast is in the center of the boat.  The shrouds should be
    tight at this point, but not tight enough to make a ringing sound
    when hit with a wrench or screwdriver.
                                          
    Third, sight up the mast to see if it is straight from bottom to
    top.  Adjust lower shrouds until it is.
    
    You now have a straight mast that is in the center of the boat.
    
    The next thing you do is go for a sail.  When on a close reach,
    the leeward shroads should be just loose.  The test I use is to
    try to move the turnbuckle back-and-forth on its lower clevis pin.
     If you can easily then tension is OK.  If not, it is too tight.
    
    If the shrouds need to be tightened OR loosened stay on the same
    tack and adjust the upper and lower shroud turnbuckles (counting
    the turns) until the shrouds "feel" good.  Then back off 1/2 the
    number of turns.
    
    Then take the opposite tack and adjust the opposite shrouds the
    same "effective" number of turns from the previous test.
    
    This should set you up coorectly.
    
    Adjustment of your fore and aft stays will depend on how your boat
    handles.  Moving the top of the mast back and forth to balance the
    helm.  The upper shrouds should have no effect on this, but the
    lower shrouds will need to redone or a "hook" will result from the
    center of the mast being held in place by the double lowers (if
    you have them, of course).  If you only have single lowers that
    attached at the same chainplate location as the uppers then no change
    is needed.
    
    Good luck and happy sailing!
    
    Jeff
    
                                

777.2GRAMPS::WCLARKWalt ClarkWed Mar 23 1988 18:1724
    I agree with Jeff that there should be some slack in the leward
    shrouds with 1x19 wire.  The wire stretches temporarly under load 
    which is what causes the slack. Naturally larger wire would stretch
    less and rod rigging even less in a give application. If you tension
    things too much by doing the tighten-the-lee-shroud, you will only
    cause permanent stretching (and again loose shrouds), overload the
    chainplates (possibly oilcanning the hull - depending on where the
    chainplates tie in), compressing the deck (maybe distorting how
    things fit below) and accelerating wearout of the wire, if not outright
    failure of a fitting.
    
    I wouldnt expect much slack on lower shrouds underway, since the
    wire is shorter and generally under lighter load.
    
    A rule of thumb I heard once is that you can tighten upper shrouds
    as much as you are able to (with ordinary tools) dockside, but
    if they are too slack for your tastes underway, dont tighten them,
    you need larger shrouds (or lower stretch types). For those of you
    who dont like rules of thumb, there are tension gauges which give
    you repeatability and a sense for how close to the limit you are
    tensioning a given wire.
    
    Walt

777.3DELNI::FACHONThu Mar 24 1988 13:4515
    Jeff's method for centering the mast is fine if you have
    a center-pull halyard.  Double check to be sure.  If not,
    you'd need to compensate for the difference.
    
    About slack, the lee upper-shrouds should definitely have play --
    They should not slop around, but neither should they be under
    significant load -- enough to keep them straight.  When adjusting
    lowers, as long as the turnbuckles are well lubricated and you're
    sailing in moderate wind -- 10 to 14 knots -- adjust the weather
    side.  Saves a lot of tacks and you'll loose fewer cotter pins.

    Once you've got your rig set up the way you want, use electric
    tape to mark the turnbuckles.  Saves a lot of time come next
    season.

777.4Tension Guages make me tense!CSSE::GARDINERNo more Monkeys!Thu Mar 24 1988 13:4829
    Re: Walt's comments on tension guages;
    
    I bought one of these overpriced locker-liners and found it of
    absolutely no use.  When sailing becomes a science it takes away
    from the objective.  
    
    Seriously, the tension guage gives a good indication of tension,
    but does not locate the mast.  Depending on the location of the
    mast the loading on the shrouds will change underway.  So the tension
    guage must be used when on each tack with identical wind conditons.
    This is not practical.  In port it works fine, but when the keel
    hits the water they will let you down.
    
    Whne you have balanced the boat and KNOW that you stick is in the
    right place, the tension guage would help set the tension on shrouds
    for next season.  Just before taking the boat out check your shroud
    tension then back off eachturnbuckle the same number of turns to
    get out the clevis pins.  Don't forget to write all of this in the
    log!  When Spring comes around the sgrouds will have changed slightly
    and the use of the tension guage will let get sailing faster.
    
    I still suspect that sailors are victums of a conspiracy that makes
    us buy everything marked MARINE!  Regardless of its value.
    
    Good luck,
    Jeff
    
    

777.5an effective lubricantMSCSSE::BERENSAlan BerensThu Mar 24 1988 14:2732
re .3:

>>>    ... as long as the turnbuckles are well lubricated and you're
>>>    sailing in moderate wind -- 10 to 14 knots -- adjust the weather
>>>    side.  

I beg to differ. This may be acceptable on a small daysailor, but
adjusting the windward turnbuckles, even if well lubricated, on a larger
boat is very likely to result in galled and damaged threads. I just
bought some new Navtec turnbuckles (for other reasons), and the price
was immoderate. 

By the way, Navtec recommends a high-tech, high-price (something over
$15 for a large spray can), dry lubricant. Rod Stephens and I recommend
anhydrous lanolin, available at your local pharmacy (you may have to
special order) for under $10 for a one pound jar (which is a lifetime
supply). This stuff is extremely effective in preventing corrosion, is a
good lubricant, and is nice to your hands (it is normally used as a
cosmetic base). I've had no trouble with thread galling or corrosion,
and since our boat has rod rigging we can carry substantial tension in
the shrouds and stays. The stuff is also quite effective in preventing
corrosion between stainless steel screws or bolts threaded into
aluminum. It doesn't wash off, is biodegradeable, and is available from
natural renewable resources (sheep). What more could you ask? 

Another easy way to readjust the rigging in the spring is to use an 
inexpensive dial caliper (under $20) to measure the turnbuckle gaps once 
you get the rig tuned to your satisfaction. The last two or three years 
this has gotten the rig right with no fiddling. 

Alan

777.6warningCLT::FANEUFThu Mar 24 1988 17:2118
    A warning. Many builders specifically recommend you NOT use the
    'tighten leeward' technique for tightening up your shrouds, because
    of the great potential for seriously overtensioning them. I understand
    some builders void the warranty on the mast and mast step (if any)
    when this is done. This is particularly true of deck-stepped masts.
    
    It might be prudent to check with the builder (if still extant)
    if you want to use this technique. I'm sure you'd find lots of
    variation between builders, but you just might ask what they recommend.
    
    Note that Alan's micrometer technique can be used in 'leeward
    tensioning' as well. You measure the amount you take up, tack, then
    take up the new leeward side the same amount. Save adjusting a weather
    turnbuckle.
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

777.7GRAMPS::WCLARKWalt ClarkFri Mar 25 1988 16:5821
    By the way I did not mean to suggest that tuning is limited to dockside
    or must be done with tension gauges.
    
    I always reset my rig to the place it was set the previous year
    and tune from there by eye.   I look for the things mentioned
    previously (straightness, rake, bend) and tune accordingly (on
    the leward side after tacking).  I also lube my turnbuckles with
    a dab of lanolin in the spring, I still cannot budge the weather
    turnbuckle on the upper shroud under sail.
    
    I think the tension gauges are useful for resetting a rig to a
    predetermined (previously measured) setting, checking the more
    complicated rigs (like whatever thay call that rig on Hunter's)
    for even setup, and for determining that you either are or are not
    tensioning a rig too close to the wire maximum.  Most of these
    things are pretty easy to do by feel if you have spent some time
    doing them, but they can make someone unfamiliar with a new boat
    more comfortable. I dont own one.
    
    Walt

777.8But what about the intermediates? ;)DELNI::FACHONMon Mar 28 1988 14:2524
    re. "weather tuning" 

    Warning:  If you've got such tension in your lower shrouds -- weather
    or lee rail -- as to damage the threads on well maintained buckles, 
    then your rig is seriously overtensioned and the compression load 
    greatly increases your risk of rig failure.  With that much 
    load on the lowers, just imagine how tight the uppers need be to 
    keep the mast in column -- even allowing for a little healthy fall-off.
    
    Under most conditions, the tension in your windward lowers 
    should still be less than the tension in the uppers when the boat 
    is at rest.  
        
    Incidentally, nothing about rod rigging requires additional 
    tension over and above wire -- just the oposite.  For a givien 
    tension, rod gives your rig better stability, and that's its beauty.
    If your application requires uncompromised performance,  you 
    might use added tension to better control your rig, but we're
    talking about control that you won't even notice unless your flying
    composites.  For cruising, there's no reason to set rod up 
    any tighter than wire shrouds.

    FYI  Barient Barlube is also a terrific lubricant.  

777.9Day Sailer TuningCSSE32::BLAISDELLTue Mar 29 1988 09:5753
I owned and raced a Day Sailer I for years. Without knowing more about your
rig, the most I can say is that the Day Sailer rig is usually fairly loose,
the leeward shroud is always very slack underweigh, and the mast is usually
straight-up. 

Some questions:

1. What kind of mast do you have?  The Day Sailer was designed to have a
flexible mast (eg. Proctor Epsilon, Proctor Beta Minus), but O'Day and other
manufacturers switched to untapered Alspar and Dwyer sections to make the boat
less expensive. The new manufacturer (Precision) has gone back to tapered
sections and a lot of Day Sailer owners have upgraded their spars. The
flexible mast permits you to adjust sail shape with the boom vang and spreader
adjustments. The tapered top section falls off in gusts, help to keep the boat
level and going. 

I suggest you adjust your shrouds at the dock. If you have a stock mast 
you probably have pin adjusters and you certainly don't want to be 
disconnecting them underweigh. It's also a good idea to do the adjustments 
while tied up next to another (known to be fast) Day Sailer. Only at rest with 
no one in the boat can you tell if the mast is straight up. Tied next to 
another boat, you can compare mast rake (of course this may vary with 
conditions). 

2. Can you vary the rake of your mast? If you have rake ajustments, experiment 
with it. If not, you mention that you have a tabernacle, and you can 
experiment with rake by sailing with only the aft pin installed. Before I 
upgraded masts, I sailed this way all the time, because the lower section of 
the mast was not perfectly located?

3. Are your spreaders adjustable? Fore and aft, and length? These ajustments
have a major effect on sail shape and the stiffness of the rig. It is the
spreaders that control stiffness and mast bend more than anything else. 

4. Do you have any kind of mechanical assist on your jib luff tension? Unless 
you do, your jib luff sag will be too great. I suggest a Harken Magic box.

5. What kind of Day Sailer do you have? A DS I or DS II? The DS II had 
undersized chainplates and you may wish to upgrade them. I don't know if 
they're still in the business, but call Waggoner Industries, East Brunswick, 
NJ about these.

6. What kind of boom vang to you have? Some kind of vang is essential, a high 
mechanical advantage wire lever vang is better.

Most of the previous replies are interesting; but they apply to cruising and
offshore boats, not dinghies. I suspect the same about the article you read
and I suggest you may do better look at a dinghy racing and tuning book, like
SAIL's "Boat Tuning for Speed." The book focuses on 420s and FDs, but a lot of
the info is transferable to less sophisticated dinghies like the Day Sailer. 

- Bob

777.10STUD::HEUSSForward into the pastTue Mar 29 1988 14:3050
    .-1  Thanks for the reply.  I appreciate all of the other input,
    but .9's right about the simplicity of the Daysailer rig vs. cruising
    boats.  My boat has only one shroud on each side of the mast and
    no back stay, so tuning upper and lower shrouds is out of the question
    :^)
    
>1. What kind of mast do you have?      
    
    I don't remember who the manufacturer of the spars is, but its in my
    owner's manual.  The boat is a Daysailer III (which I understand is not
    really a Daysailer) and so it's whoever O'Day is using as a source.
    The mast is aluminum with a mailsail luff rope track and is definately
    tapered.
    
>2. Can you vary the rake of your mast? If you have rake ajustments, experiment 
>with it. If not, you mention that you have a tabernacle, and you can 
>experiment with rake by sailing with only the aft pin installed. Before I 
>upgraded masts, I sailed this way all the time, because the lower section of 
>the mast was not perfectly located?
    
    The mast has a headstay, and single port and starboard shrouds.
    The chainplates are mounted somewhat aft of the mast, so that gives
    a three point support.  About the only way to adjust the rake would
    be to tighten up on the headstay, but that won't do much if I need
    to rake the mast backwards.  I would never have thought about not
    installing the fore pin on the tabernacle.  I'd be a bit worried
    about insufficient support for the base of the mast, but I suppose
    if its the only way to get the mast to rake back a bit...
    
>3. Are your spreaders adjustable?
    
    No.  They rotate about 45 degrees fore and aft, but once the mast
    is stepped, they maintain only one position.  They are also a fixed
    length.
    
>4. Do you have any kind of mechanical assist on your jib luff tension?
    
    The jib is on a roller furling rig.  Luff tension can be adjusted by
    hauling on the jib halyard, but that's it. 
    
>6. What kind of boom vang to you have?    
    
    I don't, but the boom vang's offered as an option, and I may look
    into one this year.
    
    Thanks for all your help and suggestions.