Conference unifix::sailing

       o  Where do you tie up your dinghy when there's only enough
          room at the dock for your boat, 
    
	    ** Some people have dingy racks on their sterns, but these
               tend to really cause a lot of drag.  Others will tie
               the main halyard to the dingy and haul it on board and
               leave it on deck upside down.  Its fairly easy to handle
               this way, and storing it upside down reduces fading on the
               topsides.
    
       o  How do you tie up your dink when maneuvering (sp?) up to
          the dock to avoid banging the dink into other folks' boats,
    
            ** If you have an inflatable thats not really a problem.
               At least in my case.  It all depends on how you are
               coming into the dock, side to, stern to, bow in, etc.
    
       o  How do you avoid getting the painter fouled into the prop
          both when getting into/off of the dock when you're alone
          (no extra hands permitted) & must move both ahead and
          astern to position the boat.
    
    	    ** I back in to my slip and usually I tie the dingy to
               the side of the boat away from the finger, so that
               its neither at bow or stern which manuevering.
    
       o  How far should the painter be eased under different sea
          conditions.  I've heard both sides on this one.  Some say
          "as far back as you can so it doesn't catch up with the boat"
          (assuming you've got that much line), and others say "It's
          gunna catch up with the boat anyhow, so keep'er up close
          so's she don't pass you, do a 180 when the line runs out,
          flip, and sink like a stone".  The latter approach was told
          to me by a sailor who had that happen to him.  He puts fenders
          all over his dink & lets it bang.  sounds awful, but it's
          better than losing it, I suppose.  How do you do it?
    
    		**  You never said, but it sounds more and more like a 
                    rigid dingy.  If so, I don't know, but I tend to
                    hike my inflatable right up to the stern.  I also
                    put two additional lines on it.  The primary goes
                    to the main ring of course, but I then run a couple
                    of lines through other places loosely (no tension
                    unless the primary breaks) just in case.
    
    Rick
    

    > how far
    
    quiet weather 8 feet
    bad weather and following seas ca. 15 feet and a rubber "brake" to
    prevent the line from parting when the dinghy falls down a wave.
    
    >line around prop
    
    I'm using since more then 5 years a nylon painter with no problems at
    all.The painter must swimm.
    
    >docking
    
    My dinghy is to heavy to carry on deck.If there is no place left on
    either side of the boat,I move it to the bow.I have a bowsprit and
    I always dock with a stern anchor or lines.There is always sufficient
    space left for a dinghy under the bow.
    
    
    Peter

    I also back into my slip. I frequently sail alone, with dink, so
    when I return, just before backing down between the docks, I stop
    the boat and move the dingy to a bow cleat.  On a short painter
    it cannot get  in the way of me or other boats. If I must move ahead
    for some reason, the dingy comes along side near the bow.
    
    
    I always set my dingy so it is just surfing from my stern wave or
    (if I am only making the speed of the waves down wind) surfing
    the ocean wave behind the one my boat is surfing.  I also always
    shift the painter to the leward stern cleat when beating, reaching
    or running, so if the dingy wants to surge forward it will do so
    away from the boat hull.
    
    Walt

    Mine is a 9 ft Zodiac.
    
    I use a yellow polypropolene painter.  It is easy to see and it
    floats thus keeping it out of the prop.
    
    Most of the time the Z-boat is lashed down on the bow.  This is
    a must in sloppy weather, but reduces drag anytime and presents
    not problems when coming into dock.
    
    

    I agree with .3 (who could disagree with Walt).  In addition to
    tying my rigid dink to the leward side under sail, I tie it to my
    port side under power.  The reason for this is that the prop shaft
    on a Catalina 30 is slightly off center, driving the boat to starboard
    under power.  The drag of the dink is just about right to correct
    it.
    
    Encore

The first rule of dinghy towing is: do not tow a dinghy, especially if
you can't afford to replace it. The problem is weather. Towing is fine
as long as the wind is light and the waves small. If bad weather happens
suddenly (as it always does), there is a very good chance of filling the
dinghy with water and losing it. (We've had our 8' fiberglass dinghy
fill three times, and we lost it one of those times. An honest Maine
fisherman found it several days later and returned it to us.) Getting
an inflatable dinghy back aboard in even a three to four foot sea and 20
knot wind isn't fun or easy. (This is another wonderful sailing
experience we've had.) 

OK, if you insist on towing ..... We've found that the towing technique 
needed for dinghies is different for rigid and inflatable dinghies. Our 
fiberglass dinghy tows best well astern -- 50 to 100 feet with a 3/8" 
nylon tow line. A small self-bailer helps keep it afloat. 

If you tow an inflatable dinghy, it is advisable to have a towing ring 
installed on each side of the dinghy 12 to 18 inches from the bow. 
Attaching the tow line to a bridle from the towing eyes greatly reduces 
the load on each eye, which in turn reduces the chances of damaging the 
dinghy. An inflatable dinghy filled with water makes a rather effective 
sea anchor. We've found that our Avon tows best from the leeward quarter 
just far enough from the boat so that it rides on the flat water of the 
wake. This, of course, means moving the tow line every time you tack, 
which is a bother. Another technique is to pull the bow of the dinghy up 
onto the top rail of the stern pulpit so that only the stern of the 
dinghy is in the water. (Difficult to do with a canoe stern and a 
windvane, so I don't know how well it works.) 

Overall, we've found that inflating/deflating our Avon is preferable to 
towing the silly thing or to towing the fiberglass dinghy. Having two 
pumps makes inflating the Avon quick work. Not towing it eliminates for 
us a major source of worry. Have you priced an Avon lately? 

From having towed a 12' Jarvis Newman tender (rigid) from a 33' ketch for
8 years, the following worked very well:

-  When backing or working in tight quarters, I just snubbed the painter 
   up pretty close to the stern chock, giving enough line to let the tender 
   swing freely -- just about enough for the bight to kiss the water from 
   time to time.  It was easy to manage this from the cockpit, too.  Of
   course we had a substantial bumper on the tender to prevent marring the
   boat's topsides.  
  
-  Due to the very efficient shape of the Newman tenders and lack of drag,
   towing required a bit of care.  The best option underway almost always was
   to let out enough line to allow the tender to ride on the back (farside)
   of the swell following the one the boat itself was on.  In most cases
   that meant at least 75' aft.  It usually kept enough drag on the tender, as
   we were in effect towing it uphill. Problems looked like they'd arise when
   following seas were fast and steep, but in these cases the towing line's
   drag would prevent the tender reaching PUFFIN.  The tender would skew
   offline as it began to surf down a wave face, but the slack painter
   dragging in the water would slow the action gently and effectively.  As
   the painter began to take up again, her bow would straighten out, again
   gently due to the water's drag on the line.  Something about the Newman's
   design kept her from ever shipping water in those conditions, though for
   the first couple years I watched the activity anxiously! 

John.

    Hi. I'm Dave Johnston and I'm new to this notes file, but not new
    to sailing.  Seems like you've received a lot of advice already.
    All I can add is that if you tow (I usually do too) do not use polypro
    line.  Use nylon and don't skimp on diameter or length.  Also, if
    you do not currently have it, put some 3/4 round padding on the
    gun'ls of the dink.  It's available at Bliss as well as other places.
    Having done both, I can say an inflatable has lots of advantages
    over rigid.  The towing harness idea for inflatables mentioned earlier
    not only reduces the strain on the bow eye, but lifts the bow out
    of the water a bit reducing the possibility of submarining.
    
    As for the close quarters drill, just tie the dink up to whatever
    side it will not get in the way.  A stern painter in the dink will
    help to tie it fore and aft.  The gun'l padding should eliminate
    any worry of damage to your hull for the short time you're docking.
    

    I'm too poor right now to buy an inflatable and am just curious enough
    to want to build a dink just for the experience of it. I'd like some
    advice. I'm thinking of a simple design for a dink that would be easy
    to tow and easy to build and am thinking of a flat bottom version with
    the nose raised up (think a flat piece of plywood with one end pulled
    up), a small skeg, and a flat transom to mount a small motor if
    desired.  Questions:
    
    1. Anyone ever used, towed, or rowed something like this? In note 139, 
    someone was building 8'x4' prams. Would this be a good size?
    
    2. What should the freeboard be for something this size?
    
    3. Looking from aft to front which would be a better design A or B:
       A being 90 degree angles and B having hard tapered chines.
    
        |       A       |     |        B        |
        |_______________|      \_______________/
                |                      |
    
    4. Would either of the above hull shapes work with a squared off nose
    	(read box looking) or should it have a pointed nose? Will it
        matter?
    
    5. Does anybody have a good design they like they could share with me
       that would be fairly easy to build or point me to some designs I 
       could review?
    
    
    Thanks for your help!
    
    Robert

    I built a dinghy like you were discussing.  I forget the name of it
    just now, but it was built from plans I bought and came with full-sized
    patterns for the jigs which certainly saved a lot of lofting time.  
    It was built from plywood over steam-bent frames.  It was alot of fun 
    building it and the price was low and satisfaction high.
    It was 8 ft. long and 4 ft. wide and could even be rigged as a sailing
    dinghy if you wanted.  It rowed very well, but had ONE major problem,
    if you tried towing it the flat bottom tended to flip it over in
    anything but calm seas.  Then, it would fill with water and become
    a very effective sea anchor.  
    
    
    Moral of the story:  If you really want a tender, build a tender, not
    a flat-bottomed rowboat better suited for a lake.

FWIW and IMHO: The only reason to build is dinghy is the joy of building a 
dinghy. Minimal materials (ie, non-marine plywood) to build even a humble 
dinghy will cost maybe $100 to $150. Using good materials will cost 
maybe double this. (Nice foam-cored canvas rubrail is around $3.50 
per foot. No proper dinghy would wear anything else.) The time required
to build a dinghy you would not be embarrassed to tie up to Hinckley's
dock is inordinate -- a couple of hundred hours if you've never built a
dinghy wouldn't surprise me. These are the thoughts that have kept me
from building a dinghy lo these many years (I've collected about six
sets of plans -- which have cost me nearly as much as an el cheapo
fiberglass dinghy). I'd suggest buying a used dingly, either an
inflatable or fiberglass. 

But don't let me discourage you ................ a fellow can never have 
too many projects and building a dinghy will probably justify buying all 
sorts of nice new tools (he said with a grin). 

RE: Alan's enthusiastic comments on dinghy-building, 

One construction method that's quick and easy is the so-called 
stitch-and-glue system.  Plywood sheets (1/4 inch, typically) are cut to 
predetermined shapes, then stitched together at the seams with wire or 
some low-stretch filament, and then the edges are taped and everything is
epoxied and painted.  Simple, not fancy, relatively fast, quite cheap.

RE: rubrail options:  The cheapest, and best (most durable) rubrail I ever
had on a dinghy was what I replaced the elegant but too-flimsy foam-cored
canvas one on our Newman tender with -- old 1-1/2" firehose.  The Rockport
Forest Fire Dept gave me a dirty old section (25' or so) which I cut, 
washed and bleached to bring it back to a muddled gray color, and then
fastened more or less like this: 
                                  
                                 / \
                                |  *|---      *--- = fastening into rubrail
                                |   |
                                 \
                                   \
                                   *|---

The best aspect of this system is that you will not cringe when your 
dinghy rail is headed for some momentary abuse.  

An alternative installation I considered was drilling holes through one 
side of the hose, in pairs as it was flattened for this purpose.  After 
lacing light line through the holes, by which I'd lash it to the rail, I 
would have inserted length of old garden hose inside the firehose, to beef 
up the diameter-under-stress and provide greater shock absorption.  Doing it 
again today, I'd use the top fastening system, *with* garden hose inserted. 

Design note 1:  A truly flat-bottomed skiff will have more towing problems
than one with a bit of V to it.  The slight dihedral will improve towing
immensely, though any dinghy will flip in certain conditions.  A small
keel aft will also help.  For the amount of V, I'd suggest following some
plans which have been tested. (Alan might have some available at a good
price. ;-) ;-)) 

Design note 2:  A bit of flare to the sides not only will keep passengers 
dryer, but will feel more secure as it will increase in stability as it 
heels rather than not change or even decrease.  Ditto on bow flare in
terms of dryness.  Good dinghy design is definitely not a trivial thing,
since minor adjustments can be dramatically magnified in use. 

RE:  Ahoy polloy (sorry):  You can go to Hinckley's dock with an inner
tube for your tender; they'll still sell you gas and wipe your windshield.
Alan's suggestion to look for a used fiberglass one is probably the
cheapest and certainly the simplest, if you're patient.  (You may be 
taking on some glassing work once you get it, though.)  

But if the fun and somewhat cheaper investment for a new one seem worth
it, and you have a plan that's been tried and found adequate, I'd consider
going for it. After all, you can modify and beef it up as you wish (and
experience dictates), and you'll have something unique and therefore
perhaps less likely to be stolen, too. 

J.

re -.1:

Well, stitch-and-glue may be easier than traditional methods, but it 
isn't necessarily quick or easy. The stitch-and-glue dinghy I will 
probably build requires two 4x10 foot sheets of plywood. Which leaves 
two options: higher cost (4x10 sheets are substantially more expensive
per sq foot than 4x8 sheets) or learning to scarf plywood. I've opted
for scarfing. 

Getting a fair and symmetrical hull with reasonably well-fitted joints 
is a little tricky. I've seen some rather odd shapes created using 
stitch-and-glue. Even after the hull is glued together, there is
fitting a rubrail, knees, and seats, building the centerboard trunk, 
rudder, tiller and mast (assuming you want a sailing dinghy as I do),
making the sail, laying a layer or two of fiberglass on the outside (if
you want a dinghy that will survive the inevitable abuse), painting and
varnishing, etc. 

If you want a humble dinghy, you can probably build something fairly 
quickly. Anything else will require much time. Why do you think that 
quality custom-built dinghies cost upwards of $2000 (or did at the last 
wooden boat show I went to)?

    You might try to find a copy of "Building the Instant Boats" by H.H.
    "Dynamite" Payson.  I know the Worcester Library has a copy and you can
    get it through the regional library system.  This book lays out some
    designs as well as describing the "tack & tape" building method.  There
    are a couple of dinghys in there that can be got out of two 4x8 sheets
    of 1/4" ply plus some sticks.  (It's all easy for me to say, I havn't
    built _anything_ ... yet.)
    
    Mike H

WOW!! Another sailor in the same "boat" as I was....  I too was having a
problem deciding what to do about the method of getting from the mooring/anchor 
to the shore/dock..  I decided that since I couldn't afford to buy that Avon,
or other such I would get one of thoes 3-4 man inflatables that your see
advertised in the Sunday paper at,,,, ok I'll say it {Bradlees}!!  

With that said all thoes sailors are no longer reading and we wont have to
worry about too many comments on the rest of what I have to say!!!!  8^)

After getting rescued from the briney deep one night with an offshore brease
trying to row to shore and every stroke to shore put me farther away....  I was
picked up by this 8' dink that was very simple and effective.  I studied it all
the way to the dock and that night I drew up the plans to make it.  

I made mine out of two sheets of exterior grade ply 1/4" thick in less than two
weeks at night.  I have no knees and its light enough for me to put it on and
off the car & in the water by myself.  That was the big priority as my wife was
pregnent at the time.  I used the lace together method and the thing works
fine.  True this is not a dink that you would want to tow to England or
somewhere,  but for an allround harbor dink I saw none "better".  It carried 2
adults and 2 1/2 kids back and forth in Salem harbor for several years.  ( the
1/2 kid was that long  8^)  ]  It also towed so well that many people were
impressed.  ME TOO....  I still have the dink in the yard and I use it now to
take the kids fishing in the lake and Concord river.  If you want the exact
measurements Let me know I may still be able to find the template that I made
for my brother to make his.  If not, you are welcome to come take a look....  

I disagree with Alan on the time required and the expense.  I by no means am a
ship builder, I have done a lot of building with wood.  But this was the first
floating vessel I designed and built, and the first time I used fiberglass.  

With the nice paint job, bow line pennent, row locks, and even a small anchor
in the bow, I would not be, AM NOT, ashamed to row this dink up to any dock or
boat in the harbor.  

BTW the rubrail I used was from Sears, the 1 1/2" wide rubber stick on car
molding.  I used some brass screws to attach it and never once did I scratch
another vessel.   

If you would like more info, let me know I will do some measurements if you
like .  

`Charlie'

    

    Thanks for the inputs from everyone. I've never even thought of the
    stitch and glue option before...
    
    Charlie Demoss..Yes, if you don't mind, I'd really appreciate the
    measurements and any other info you could give me. I too can't aford
    the Avon of my dreams, and am really interested in doing this project,
    particularly if it can be done in the general timeframes you discussed.
    I'd love to come by and look, but from Dallas, that's a real trip!
    If you like you can post the info here for others to use, or send it to
    me at DPDMAI::Cleveland or Robert Cleveland @ DLO. My DTN is 486-6496.
    Thanks for your help, and if anyone else has more ideas, I'm open!!!!
    
    Regards,
    Robert
    

    Buy a second hand Avon in the UK and get it shipped?
    
    Pete

    Pete,
    
    Interesting suggestion. Any ideas on what one would cost in US$ ?
    For that matter, aren't the new ones significantly less, even with
    shippage cost to the US than what you can buy here? Alan, didn't you
    say onetime you did this?
    
    Robert

re .18:

I bought a new Avon liferaft from Thomas Foulkes in London. Since dinghy 
prices are much more competitive, the savings may be much less than the 
savings on buying a liferaft. Besides, according to the financial news, 
the pound sterling is up and the dollar down (England is supposedly 
self-sufficent in oil). 

    Alan at the risk of minor offence I hope may I be so bold as to correct
    you (That's the polite British stiff upper lip stuff....) I would be a
    lot happier if you refered to us as either British or UK. In your
    response you risk giving offence to the rest of the country. The
    correct title is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland. The componant parts are England,Wales, Scotland and Northern
    Ireland . We all vote to send members of Parliament to Westminster
    which happens to be in London. Most but not all of our oil comes ashore
    in Scotland hence you risk offence to my Celtic bretheren.........by
    labelling them as English (Not that I mind..........) We are net
    exportors of oil but we still require oil from Saudi Arabia etc. to
    obtain the right blend. hence the pound is strong. I will now return
    the soap box and lecturers batton to their respective boxes........
    
    
    On to more meaningful things................Robert a new Avon Redcrest
    over here currently costs about 600 pounds including VAT (15%) You see
    second hand ones for anything from 300 pounds up. If you Know anyone
    comming over here next spring there is always the Beaulie Boat Jumble
    where I have seen them down as low as 150-200 pounds.......Shipping ?
    
    My neighbour at the marina has had the same Avon for 22 years so if you
    are planning to be sailing for a while and consider the annual payments
    perhaps if you were not to paint the house this year or mis out on the
    odd meal or sell the other half..,.............(I Jest)
    
    If you want the names of some discount UK chandlers drop me a line. It
    could be a good tiome with the Southampton Boat Show just two weeks
    away.
    
    
    cheers.........Pete
    
    PS I hope this note stays here long enough before our moderator gets
    tempted..............

>>>  ...currently costs about 600 pounds including VAT (15%)

If you can prove it left the country, a quite simple matter for an American 
citizen, you can have the VAT returned to you after the item has departed 
British shores.  (Do expect to pay it up front, however, as the dealer must 
satisfy H.M. tax collector regardless of your final intentions.)

That should just about pay for the shipping.

J.

Today's Wall Street Journal quotes the pound sterling at $1.955 US. So,
600 pounds less 15% times 1.9555 is $997. Add to that $100 or more for 
air freight and import duty ..... 

You'd be better off buying a new Avon in stock at a US dealer, at least
for the moment. 

>Today's Wall Street Journal quotes the pound sterling at $1.955 US. So,
>600 pounds less 15% times 1.9555 is $997. Add to that $100 or more for 
>air freight and import duty ..... 

Import duty should be 10% of list so you are at $100 for just
Customs. Then again, I have had stuff sent via US mail for the US leg, and the
local postmaster forgot to bill me for the customs when I went to pick the 
stuff up.

The sharpness of your postmaster may vary...

john

The US mail folks won't handle packages over a certain size and weight. 
An Avon Redcrest exceeds these limits. 

    Sorry for late reply - vacation.
    
    Re:  Stitch and glue dinghy.
    
    I recently built a 17 foot sea kayak using the stitch and glue method,
    and am now preparing to do another.  Very simple, can be done in rela-
    tively short spurts (2-4 hrs), and results occur quickly so one has
    something to show.  Entire build-to-finish cycle approximately 40 hrs.
    
    Resulting product was something even I (a purist) could be proud of.
    
    I have recently heard from my brother that he has obtained a kit for a
    14 foot (I think) dory using 9mm mahogany ply and the stitch and glue
    method.  Total cost for kit, including all materials except transom
    wood (and maybe knees?) seems to be around $450.
    
    If anyone is interested, kit came from Pygmy Boat Co. in Port Townsend,
    Washington.  I can get more info if necessary.
    
    By the way, hull was designed entirely by computer, as are Pygmy's other
    kits, so should be very stable and easily driven.  Also, I used the
    same mahogany ply for kayak, and properly finished product is a
    beautiful sight.                                                                 

    Well folks, 
    
    I purchased a used 12' Avon for $300.00, but it could use
    some patches replaced, some cleaning, and some new red paint. Does
    anyone know where I can get a patch kit, Avon paint to redo the
    pontoons and a cheap pump?
    
    Since it does not have floor boards present, can anyone describe how
    they connect so I can make some. Would 1/4" marine plywood suffice???
    
    Also, what do you think would be the minimum horsepower outboard 
    motor I should buy for this. All I want is to use it to ferry folks and
    carry gear; nothing like waterskiing behind it or anything!
    
    Thanks,
    Robert

Avon sell patch kits. See most any discount catalog. Hypalon paint is 
expensive and has a limited shelf life (as I vaguely recall). Why bother 
repainting it? Disreputable looking dinghies tend not to be stolen. A 
motor? Er, ah, would you like an exciting new challenge in your life? 
Buy oars and try rowing the critter. Less expensive, non-polluting, and
contributes to your physical well-being. 

    Alan,
    
    This Avon lacks oar-locks of any kind, so unless I can glue them on,
    I'm off to paddling, and not rowing. Also, this puppy is not narrow, so
    unless I have to have some serious length to the oars. With a battering
    ram up front I could do my imitation of a Viking longboat!
    
    The hypalon paint would be used for filling in mild cuts in the outer
    rubber and general looks. I never thought about the theft issue though,
    good point! Need I worry about areas that have been scuffed down to the
    fabric on the outside, but clearly are not leaking (yet)?

re .28:

No oarlocks???? May I humbly suggest that you do NOT leave solid land 
without them? Outboard engines do stop running unexpectedly, and
inflatable dinghies drift very fast in even light wind (at least my Avon
Redcrest does). Not being able to row could be fatal (literally).
Inflatables do not row easily, and I would imagine that they'd be quite
impossible to paddle in anything other than a dead, flat calm. Avon
oarlocks are big rubber things that glue to the hull. Beg, cajole,
whine, bribe, do whatever you must do to get some from an Avon dealer
and stick 'em on. 

I think that the fabric in Avons is nylon. If it is showing through, I'd 
do something to protect it from the elements. Once the fabric is 
weakened by sunlight, ozone, and other nasties you might as well look 
for another dinghy. I'd slap a patch over any exposed fabric.

IMTRA Corporation handles AVON on the east coast.  They are down in New 
Bedford (tel 508-990-2700).

They can direct you to a dealer that will help.  I just picked up a new 
AVON 315 from them.  The salesman I spoke to was named Chip.  The outfit 
that set things up for me was Marine Exchange in Peabody (very helpful 
folks).

Imtra can also advise you about engines...they handle the Nissan line.  I 
have a 2.5 HP that pushes the 315 along quite nicely.  If you want to put 
it on plane you need something around 8 HP.

Hope this helps,

Carl