Conference unifix::sailing

    Long ago in a kingdom far away I had an O'Day Mariner.  Slapped
    a used 3 h.p. Seagull on the transom and had myself a stinkpot.
    A few suggestions from the experience.
    
    1.  Your freeboard is so low that you don't need a transom mount.
    As long as the engine you buy can tilt far enough forward to come
    completely out of the water when you're sailing it should be fine.
    Also, you can reach the engine controls better with it on the transom.
    
    2.  No matter where you mount the engine, be sure to mount it on
    an anti-vibration pad of some sort.  I found an old typewriter pad
    in the trash that I was able to cut to size.  It really helped reduce
    the vibration that small engines are notorious for.
    
    3.  Look for an engine that will accept a remote fuel tank.  The
    seagull didn't and I was constantly filling it.  Also, whenever
    I tilted it forward when sailing it tended to leak into the cockpit.
                                                         
    4.  3-4.5 h.p. seems about right unless your guests like to water
    ski.  In that case, a pair of 110 h.p. Mercury Black Widows would
    be interesting.
    
    5.  Think about getting an outboard with a long shaft.  Standard
    length I believe is 20".  The long shaft is 5" longer.  The advantage
    is when you get out in the waves your prop won't pop out of the
    water as often.
    
    6.  Honda outboards seem to have a bad corrosion problem when used
    in salt water.  I'd shy away from them.
    
    7.  Watch how close you place the engine to your rudder.  Believe
    me when I tell you that the prop and rudder can't share the same
    space at the same time.  Whew, talk about delamination!!!!!!!!!!!

    .. and a point I'd add :
    
    If you're going off-shore any distance, and to me that's more than
    a  mile, then get a twin cylinder job (Johnson for example)
    as singles are fine in rivers, but if one cylinder fails out at
    sea ......     And DONT forget to carry essential spares - spark
    plugs and shear pin are musts, plus of course the tools to change
    them with!
        
    By the way, my 19 footer has a 4hp on the back and is fine in all
    except conditions I shouldn't be out in anyway - and the problem
    is the shaft coming out of the water on the waves (as in -.1).
    
    Brian

    I'm confused.
    
    The original note was something like "I'm going ocean sailing" then
    a question about an engine. Are you going sailing or motoring?
     
    Why would you want to hang an extra 75 lbs off the back of the boat,
    carry a stinky, oily can in the boat, and listen to the damn thing?
    
    If you have a decent sailboat, learn to sail it well and forget
    the engine. If you have a lousy sailboat that wont sail well and
    needs an engine change boats!
    
    .2 suggests their is some safety in a 2 cylinder engine over a 1.
    Almost any problem that will stop an engine will stop 2 cylinders
    as well as 1. Carburetion, ignition, foul fuel, all will get stop
    both cylinders equally well, and even if only 1 plug fouls first,
    it will only be a matter of minutes until the second one goes- and
    that will be just about when you have dumped your sail and are headed
    straight for some obstacle.
    
    I am convinced most small boat sailors get into trouble more because
    of their engines than they are helped. When a problem occurs the
    first reaction is to try to 'start the engine' instead of sailing
    their way out of it. While they fool with lowering the engine and
    getting it started, they invariably drift closer to the rock or
    whatever.
    
    Leave the engine off, SAIL!
    
    Ron 
    

    re .3
    
    Ron,
    
    I know you're a purist and I respect that.  But did you ever try
    to SAIL out of Duxbury channel in a SW wind?
    
    Adam
    
    S.S. Frozen Snot

    Re: 715.3
    
    I take exception to the sentiments expressed by Ron Ginger in the
    previous note. I sail in the North Shore, NH, Southern Maine region.
    There are very few harbors that one can sail into reliably. Newburyport
    where I moor has a current that runs up to 3-4 kts in the mouth. Unless
    the wind is running quite right, you won't be able to return under
    sail. The motor is absolutely required. We do leave the main up when we
    cross the mouth, in case the motor fails (as it has thanks to being
    swamped by a 60 foot party coming in at full bore). This gives us some
    steerage. 
    
    The same is true of most of the harbors that are in the area, most of
    them are river inlets (i.e. Portsmouth, Parker River, Annisquam,
    Kenneybunkport, ...). About the only harbors you can get into without a
    motor is Salem, Marblehead, and Gloucester, and I wouldn't want to try
    to navigate a crowded harbor like Marblehead under sail alone. 
    
    One thing a motor gives you is near hull speed to run from danger, when
    a T-storm is coming and you are 5-6 miles off shore. Another thing is
    gives you is manueverability in crowded harbors. 
    
    I will have to agree that a 2 cylinder engine is in my experience no
    more reliable than a one lunger. Most of my motor failures have been
    due to carbueration problems (generally the engine sucking too much
    water from passing waves/wakes). You should absolutely know how to
    drain and blow out the carb while at sea.
    
    I also have to agree that many times one tends to to try rely on the
    engine when sailing would be the safer course. Waves are taken much
    better when under sail, than under motor. In general the boat is
    more sea worthy under sail than under motor. 
    
    Outboard motors are a mixed blessing, but are an absolute neccesity
    if you are going to do any sailing off the coast of New England.
    
    /jim

    
    	re: .5
    	That's my rationale.  I don't want to be stuck just outside
    the river, etc. with the tide/current running out while becalmed
    (rare).  The other point is that after launching (someday I'll be
    sitting aboard something too large to trailer) it seems that you
    can clear the ramp area more quickly under power, thus helping out
    the already crowded ramp/launch situation.
    
    	Does anyone know of a reasonable source for "good" used motors
    without having to pour through the want ad pages?
    
    	What's the rule regarding registration of craft with a motor?
    Is it any motor, or ,motors greater than x hp?
    
    
    Steve
    

    I had an O'Day daysailor that I used to regularly sail into her slip.
    Despite what you read in SAIL magazine, or in Cruising World article,
    it is a b**ch to do.  If I could have afforded a motor at the time
    I would have gladly bought one. You had to jibe at the right moment,
    tiller between your legs, and drop sails at exactly the right second.
                                                                         
    Sailing is meant to be enjoyed, and there is nothing more infuriating 
    than paddling in, or trying to sail against a current of 3 or 4 knots
    in a small boat.  In many cases, its just hopeless.  Even in a good
    breeze, heeled sharply, you can actually sail backwards in a strong current.
    
    Although its a bit more motor handling than some like (oops..splash),
    the transom is low enough on that boat so that you may just want
    to stow the engine somewhere else while sailing.  3-4 horse should
    be enough for 3-4 people on board.
                                                            
    Rick
        
    * I can remember paddling in from Warwick point to Aponaug Harbor (never
      again...) while my wife-then-girlfriend complained that I was not
      singing to her at the same time.  Right.  Get the motor unless
      you want to be a gondoleer.

    Last year I had my Seagul ripped off. I found a practically new
    Johnson Sailmaster 4hp at a local pawn shop for $100. BOught it
    and went to th local Johnson dealer for a manual. They told me they
    needed ths serial number and showed me where the plate was located.
    When I went to my boat to get the number I discovered the plate
    was missing...Hmmmmm....The people at the pawn shop said it came
    in that way.
    
    Anyway, it has worked quite well, one sheared pin with no
    provocation(running over a stump, etc.). Someone mentioned carburation
    problems: A suggestion you might try. I always run my engine dry,
    i.e. remove the fuel line, put it in neutral, and let it run down
    while I clear the decks. It makes it hard to start sometimes. You
    really have to pump up the tank pressure, but the carb stays clean
    and this is important for any engine running on a oil/gas mixture.
    The gas evaporates and the oil attracts contaminates. I too recommend
    a remote tank as well as the ability to run in reverse. This is
    useful in docking.

    I've got a Daysailer 3 that I bought last year.  It came with a long
    shaft 2.5 hp Tohatsu.  I believe that the documentation that comes with
    the boat specifies that a long shaft be used.
    
    On vacation I motor in and out of a harbor in Maine where the entrance
    to the harbor is about 20 feet wide and 6 feet deep at low tide.  The
    current gets pretty strong through there and I'd really hate to have to
    try and get through against the current without the motor.  The 2.5
    seems to have plenty of power for pushing the Daysailer. 
    
    The other thing that I found the motor was handy for was self bailing.
    At one point last summer, I beached the boat to let some folks off
    and got some breakers over the transom before I could get her turned
    bow into the waves.  I just motored around in circles for a couple
    of minutes prior to anchoring and the water just went right out
    the self bailer.
    
    I mount the motor right on the transom and have never had a problem
    with gas spillage and the like.  According to the manuals, they've
    reinforced the transom so there should be no structural problems. I do
    put a pad between the motor mounts and the transom, just to keep from
    dinging up the Gelcoat.  You do have to take care that it's mounted
    sufficiently far from the rudder, though.
    
    My motor doesn't have a neutral or reverse gear, and I'd agree with the
    prior note, that it sure would be nice to have. Especially the neutral
    gear.  I too like to dry the lines out by running the engine with
    the gas tank valve off, but unless I turn off the valve at just
    the right time, I end up motoring around in circles until the
    motor dies.
    

    First could I suggest a motor with neutral and forward (minimum).
    It a real pain to start and go all in one pull of the coard.  Also
    with neutral it gives you time to warm up the engine a little before
    letting go lines.
    
    As to what happens when you put a motor on a sail boat, it is my
    understanding that you have to register the boat with your local
    state goverment.  Depending on the state, if you have not paid sail
    (oops) sale's tax you must.  RI is 6%, Mass, is 5% plus a yearly
    charge for being rich and owning a boat(thanks to Duke), Maine has
    no sale's tax but you must pay a harbor masters fee and NH no sales
    tax but the registration is not recognized in any other state. 
    I'm not sure about Conn, I think its a 5% sales tax.
    
    As for documentation of the boat, I think your to small.
    
    happy sailing, come on spring,
    
    Tom
    
     

    A number of sailing friends I have are using a Mariner outboard
    motor and are quite happy with it.  I know it comes standard
    with the longer shaft, and I think it has fwd, neutral, and rev.
    It has an internal tank, but may have remote fuel tank capability.
    The ones I've seen are the 4hp model and are used on boats from
    18 - 23 feet.
    
    All of my sailing is freshwater, so I don't know if the Mariner
    would be as applicable in saltwater.  The new 4hp costs about
    $700.00.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Keith

RE: .10

Documentation is limited to vessels 5 tons and up.  Although some people 
in the past have been able to list a vessel as "Under 5 tons" to get a 
smaller boat included, the USCG apparently has recently been discouraging
the practice. 

Besides, it's probably not worth it.  Advantages of documentation include
eliminating the bow numbers and paying the annual registration fee, but
the disadvantages include a lengthy and involved process to document the
vessel; for a used boat or one not documented by the builder, this can
make red tape look like a little Christmas confetti.  Documentation must
be renewed just like state registration, which costs time mostly -- we
spent over two years without our boat's documentation papers aboard thanks
to some bureaucrat's burgeoning in-basket.

The other disadvantage of documentation is that the government can seize 
your vessel for service in time of war.   ;-),
                                               John.

    one more note.
    
    Yes, please. please, everyone with a daysailer who is going to
    use a narrow channel (does that exclude anyone) get an outboard
    or ask for a tow through the channel!!
    
    My boat is moored in Bullock's Cove, Rhode Island, at the north
    end of Narragansett Bay. I have had close calls every year with
    folk who decide to sail out against the tide and wind as I am
    entering or exiting.
    
    Our channel shows 5' on the charts and is perhaps 60 feet wide.
    The channel, though bouyed, shifts and drifts and on neap tides
    you usually take some mud with you. I draw a full 6 ft.
    
    I have seen a number of close calls in that channel and experienced
    two. One daysailer lost control and was blown under my bow. A foot
    further along and I would have rolled him. I did hit him and have
    a black smear on my bow. The guy apologized, I was only able to
     say his timing was bad, adn ask for a tow. The more serious one
    was an S boat which I think is 34 ft and draws at least 5.5, was
    attempting to tack out against the tide and wind. If I had not
    thrown it into reverse I would have struck him with serious
    consequences. He was near hit by other boats. Now backing my 8 ton
    sailboat hull with a 25 HP engine does not reverse directions
    quickly.
    
    So out of respect and for the safety of others, either get a motor
    or ask for a tow!!
    
    Don

Re .13

I'm trying to visualize the situation you describe and perhaps reply again,
but I'm not familiar with Bullocks Cove. Could I ask for a better description
of the cove and entry channel? You say the channel is only 60 foot wide, but
how long is it and what's the maximum current flow? It's hard for me to
visualize a 34 foot S-boat tacking up a 60 foot wide channel unless it's very
short and only one tack is required.

I will say that I am wondering if you might have just waited outside or inside
the cove until the boat under sail cleared the channel? Some problems have to
be anticipated and in this case the needs of the right-of-way boat should be
anticipated. You may have, but in cases like this I would also suggest
maintaining longer distances from the other powered boats in the channel. This
will give the small sailboat the maneuvering room it needs and deserves. 

Perhaps, I'm just more sympathetic and patient with small boat sailors. I sail
a Catalina 22 today (and Sunfish and DN), but I had a Day Sailer for years and 
desperately miss it. My Day Sailer never had an engine on it because the 
weight would hurt the way it sailed and, of course, it's silly to think of an 
engine on Sunfish and other smaller boats. 

- Bob

    re:Bullocks cove

> I'm trying to visualize the situation you describe and perhaps reply again,
> but I'm not familiar with Bullocks Cove. Could I ask for a better description
> of the cove and entry channel? You say the channel is only 60 foot wide, but
> how long is it and what's the maximum current flow? It's hard for me to
> visualize a 34 foot S-boat tacking up a 60 foot wide channel unless it's very
> short and only one tack is required.

Having a chart of Narragansett Bay on my wall, the channel into Bullocks
Cove is about a half a nautical mile long.  I would guess the current
peaks at a knot (or less)(having motered in *ONCE*), and that only at the
entrance.  The tide range is 4.5 feet.

I would be impressed by a crew that could do 30 or so *perfect* tacks
needed to take an S-boat up such a channel,  including keeping the sails
trimmed while the boat wasn't tacking.  Great practice for racing!


Phil

    re .14
    
    Think again about that right of way situation.  I believe vesseles
    (or vessels if you prefer) constrained by their draft have right
    of way.  Not being a sea lawyer, I can't say with conviction, but
    I would tend to believe that a deep-draft sailboat (or powerboat)
    would be considered to be constrained by their draft in this situation
    and would probably have right of way.  Any other opinions? (he asks
    knowingly).
    
    

    I believe sailing to windward in a narrow channel where significant
    motor traffic exists is inconsiderate of the sailor regardless of
    who would win in court.
    
    If the vessel is short enough to motor around as it crosses the
    channel (as in your typical daysailor), and if the motor traffic
    is light, I see no problem.  I have watched engineless skippers
    beat 30-40' boats up Branford (Ct.) River in the midst of hundreds
    of returning boats. Beyond the town pier, this river is no more
    than 200' wide, mostly narrower. I offered one of these skippers 
    a tow to help the traffic jam situation he was causing, but he 
    refused, insisting on his "rights" and "right-of-way" under sail.  
    
    To me, this skipper is as inconsiderate and un-seamanlike as the 
    power boat skipper producing a wake in or near a Marina or anchorage.
    
    The "I am the only one who matters" attitude is the cause of accidents,
    confrontations, and restrictive laws on our ever more crowded water-
    ways.
    
    Walt

re .16

As I read your reply, you seem to be assuming that the small boat is not
equally constrained by it's draft. Consider for example that a 19' Lightning
has a 5 foot draft, a 15' Albacore has a 4' 9" draft, a 505 4' 8", and I could
go on. In other words, centerboard boats may need to be in the channel as much
or more than some keel boats. I know from experience that not all big boat 
skippers understand this.

I did say in my earlier reply that the sailing vessel was the right-of-way 
boat, but in no way did I say it has a right to do anything it pleases. 
Obviously the 6 foot draft sailboat also needs to be in the channel and the 
right of way rules recognize this. Specifically, the sailing vessel can do 
nothing to prevent the power driven yachts from keeping clear. What can the 
power drive boats do to stay clear? I would suggest that they can slow down, 
stay to the side of the channel, maintain reasonable distances, and only pass 
the sailing vessel when the boat is tacking away from their side of the 
channel. 

In some sailing areas big boats are crowding out the smaller boats, and in 
some places the boats are just becoming too big for the location. In some 
cases this is just the bad side of "progress" and prosperity and in other cases 
it's just wrong. Myself, I'm always going to do whatever I can to accomodate 
the small boats, but then I'll always be a small boat sailor at heart.

Regarding Walt having offered to tow smaller sailboats through the channel, I 
complement him and I probably would have accepted. On the other hand, if being 
towed required dropping the main, I probably would have said thanks but no 
thanks. 

- Bob

Re: -.2 (I think)

To complicate matters, in some situations, right-of-way is a function of 
current, as it is under the Cut Bridge at the southern end of the 
Annisquam River in Gloucester:  Traffic with the current has right-of-way; 
traffic against must wait.  

If you've ever been there headed south into Gloucester Harbor on a rapidly 
falling tide, you understand just why!

J.

    
    I think several of the past note writers have a bad sense of
    dimensions! I cant imagine any natural channel or cove entrance
    only 200 feet wide! most LOCKs are that wide. One of the narrowest
    channels I've come thru is the entrance into Cuttyhunk harbor and
    I bet thats eaisly 500' feet or more wide.
    
    I have always liked SAILING my boats, and have sailed most of them
    without engines. Most notably a 26' FOLKBOAT and a 6 meter. Neither
    had engines, I sailed both of them into and out of a marina, through
    channels and even towed Solings in and out under sail from my Folkboat.
    I sailed the Folkboat into Cuttyhunk and damn near got hit by that
    seaplane taking off directly out the channel.
    
    Probably the major distinction is that the boats Im talking about
    are Sailboats, designed to sail well, not some of the plastic campers
    with a mast that most people sail now (hows that for non-biased
    views?)
    
    I do agree that one shouldnt force right of way just to cause power
    boats to have to yield. But when you have a fine sailing boat (
    the S boat previously mentioned would be one) then you ought to
    SAIL the boat. I would never accept a tow just to make way for motor
    boats to rush through a channel. I would also never sail into a
    situtation I wasnt confident my boat could sail through.
    
    OK all you lovers of modern designs made of that frozen snot! Have
    at me!
    

    Re: .20
    
    Ron, I got suspicious about your sense of dimensions too when you
    bet that the entrance to Cuttyhunk was easily 500' wide.
    
    As a frozen-snot owner who just happens to have a copy of chart
    13229 handy I suspect that your memory might just be a teensy-weensy
    bit cloudy. Just to make certain that I had the best accuracy possible
    I expanded my chart to 250%.
    
    The channel is dredged 9' for a width of 75'.
    At it's narrowest point the natural channel (low water) matches
    this 75' width. At this same point the distance across to the high
    water mark is never greater than 225'. The absolutely widest point
    in the whole channel (approx where the man-man jetty begins) is
    300'.
    
    Hope you wern't ready to bet the farm. :^)
    
    JCR
    

    RE .20:  A football field is only 300' wide, and believe me, the
             entrance to cuttyhunk pond is not that big....
    
    	     More like 50 ft at the narrowest, 100 at the widest.
    
    	     Rick
    

    In my reply, the boat I offer tow to (which was refused) was about
    10' longer on deck than the 25' boat I had at the time.
    
    His was a fine sailing boat, wooden hull and spars, etc.   The problem
    is he was sailing up a narrow river (OK somebody sailing out of
    Branford or with a chart handy check the controlled depth and width)
    against the wind (not reaching or running, beating) at the same
    time of day when Branford River resembles 128 at 5PM on Friday.
    
    Walt

    
    
    
    I sail a 14' daysailer (Tallstar14). I started out without a motor.
    Being new at sailing I thought only stinkpots and large sailboats
    needed motors. I was going to be a purist and learn to sail out
    of anywhere. Wrong. I found that being becalmed 2 miles out in
    Vineyard sound for 3 hours was no fun. I eventually drifted onto
    a beach, and considered myself lucky to have made it back.
    
    Launching from the boat ramp dock, I found out that you can't tack
    back and forth between 2 piers 40 ft apart. This was in Green Harbor
    in Falmouth, and had to ask for a tow out to the channel. Getting
    out of the breakwater was impossible when the wind is dead ahead
    and the channel is 40' ft. wide and 100 ft. long.
    
    Last year I bought a 2' hp Johnson and have no problems. Purists
    sometime have very narrow minds, and even less true knowledge.
    
    Buy a motor.
    

Forget not that engines fail. One of the differences between sailors and 
people who own power boats with auxiliary propulsion (sails) is that the 
sailor can sail his/her boat into and out of narrow channels, crowded 
harbors, and so forth. The ability to do this can only be developed by
constant practice. We regularly sail our 32' cutter the length of
Marblehead Harbor even when to do so is a beat. (Doing so is one hell of
a high!) We have long since stopped worrying about engine failure. There
are, of course, times when sailing is inadvisable when power is an
alternative. 

First, understand that I was born and raised in engineless sailboats (a 
sweep was aboard to cope with calms), and have sailed an engineless ketch 
from Florida to Maine -- albeit with an Armstrong auxiliary (a.k.a. oars 
in the hands of our crew of 6 or more.)

However, dyed-in-the-wool engineless sailors are a bit anachronistic, 
don't you think?  Times have changed:  Where 50 -- h*ll, even 25 -- years 
ago you could get around just fine without an engine as long as your 
attitude adjustment was set on "PATIENCE", life's evolved, including 
afloat.  

Marinas aren't designed to sail in and out of.  Harbor anchorage densities
have doubled or more.  Bridges and canals typically require powered
passage.  The sheer number of vessels competing for a limited amount of
coastwise water has increased dramatically.  And (here's where I put a
little gas to the flame) the general nautical knowledge level of most
boaters seems to have fallen to near that of the population living in the
dry parts of Kansas.  (Give me hormones and and a throttle, and I'll show
'em!) 

Some will persist in swimming (and sailing) upstream, and let's wish them 
the best.  But let's also acknowledge that it's a different world on the 
water these days, and recognize the distinction between being *able* to 
sail your way into and out of anything, and proving that you deserve the 
right to under any circumstances.

Sailing engineless and sailing seamanlike together should produce 
different behaviors today than they would have 25 or more years ago.

John.

    
    re. .26
    
    Why did you pick Kansas people to use as an example. I happen to
    be from Kansas. There are a lot of large lakes in Kansas suitable
    for sailing and I'm sure there are some good sailors there.
    
    P.S. And lots of tornadoes. Must be tough to sail in one of those.
    
    Bob Adams
    

    WELL said, John Spencer!! (All sailors who learned to cope with
    tidal currents in a narrow channel in Kansas, have at him...)
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

re: .26

I quite intentionally restricted my reference to those from the *dry
parts* of Kansas.  Obviously, you should exclude yourself from that 
category.

;-),
      J.