Conference unifix::sailing

    I dont know about the CNG vs. Propane thing Frank (we are real
    happy with our Hillerange Alcohol stove/oven), but congratulations
    on the boat.  I visited a 32 that preceded me into Cuttyhunk a
    few weeks ago.  Very nicely done indeed. 
    
    Walt

Why rule out alcohol?  It doesn't HAVE to be pressurized. The first thing
I changed on my boat when I bought it was to remove the pressurized stove
and replace it with an Origo alcohol unit. Origo makes 1 and 2 burner stoves
AND ovens!

The Origo units all work like giant Sterno cans - a 2.5 pint metal container
holds an absorbant sponge. Pour the alcohol (on the dock) into the container
and that's it. No pre-heating. No checking for / worrying about leaks. Flame
height is controlled with an air shutter (looks like a wheel [or was it
a tiller?] on end).

A child can safely light either the oven or stovetop with a butane lighter
(I use a Magma refillable). You never get flare-ups and the system is silent
- no hissing or sputtering. As far as I know, you should be able to specify
Origo cooking units in your boat and have it built that way.

A completely sold and happy customer,
Carl

re .1 and .2:

My contrary view is that alcohol stoves are one of the worst possible
pieces of equipment you can have on your boat. Alcohol flames are not
very hot -- bringing a large pot of water to a boil on an alcohol stove
is an exercise in patience. The lobsters will die of old age before the
water boils. Stove alcohol is expensive, and the fumes make me (and
other) quickly seasick. Moreover, water vapor is a byproduct of burning
alcohol, and more water vaper inside the cabin on a chilly, rainy day is
not what you want for comfort. 

A properly designed and installed propane stove is quite safe. By Coast 
Guard regulations, the tanks must be in a separate compartment that is 
vented overboard. With a solenoid shutoff at the tanks, there is 
insufficient propane in the lines to cause an explosion even if it all 
leaks into the cabin. It is also easy to check for leaks. We have a 
propane stove and oven, and would have nothing else. A 10 lb propane 
bottle lasts all summer (including a three week cruise) and we cook two 
or three meals almost every weekend. Ten pounds of propane is about $5 
as I recall. Our first boat had a pressurized alcohol stove, and we were 
delighted to pay extra for the propane stove/oven we now have.

As was pointed out, the problem with CNG is the limited amount of gas in 
the tanks, and the difficulty of finding a place to refill them. If CNG 
leaks, the gas rises. If your overhead isn't well ventilated, you could 
have an explosion from CNG, I would think.

If you don't want either propane or CNG, consider kerosene. The burners 
are a mite hard to light (but easy once you've learned how), the flame 
is hot, and no water vapor.

Alan

    Actually, water vapor is a byproduct of ALL conventional combustion
    processes, together with carbon dioxide; for most boat stove fuels,
    these should be virtually the only combustion byproducts. Fuels
    like propane apparently produce much less water vapor than alcohol
    because they produce proportionately more carbon dioxide, and because
    the water vapor is at a higher temperature - less of it condenses
    in the immediate vicinity of the stove.
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    RE: .1, .3
    
    I am not actually promoting Alcohol stoves.  My first boat had the
    typical Kenyon 2 burner. A pain in the butt if there ever was one.
    
    When we bought our Tartan, it had already been built and as such
    was offered at reduced price from the factory. The dealer was
    willing to make changes once the boat arrived, such as replacing
    the alcohol with another type. We were even given a season to make
    up our minds. Since we wanted to avoid spending unnecessarily at
    purchase time (and thereafter) we decided to take advantage of the
    grace period.  After using the Hillerange for a season, we were
    delighted at the improvement over the Kenyon (all the hassle was
    gone) and the conversion seemed unnecessary.  Yes, alcohol produces
    less heat, so a pot of water takes forever to boil, and alcohol
    costs are significant (I buy it in RI for $5.99 a gallon) compared
    to the gasses. If there were no price difference (or it wasnt an
    issue with us at the time), or I hadnt had the grace period, I 
    would have gone with the Propane. I will probably do so on the next
    boat, but I have no complaints with the Hillerange system and have
    no desire to change on this one.

    Walt

    I've had all three systems and I'd go with  propane for a different
    reason than the others stated. 
    
    The CNG system you would most likely consider is made by Gas Systems
    Inc. The quality of their stove is not the best - prone to rusting.
    
    If Ericson was willing to install GSI tanks, and regulator, along with
    a Shipmate CNG stove, and there was no significant price differential
    you might lean slightly to CNG for the safety margin of the lighter
    gas.  
    
    Short tank life and availability seem to be a problem with CNG even
    though I haven't personally experienced either. I know others who have.
    Maybe having a spare tank guarantees that the first one never runs out. 
    
    I've got CNG now, could have had propane but price was a issue. Sabre's
    installation for either is the same, a vented cockpit locker, solenoid
    shutoff, etc. but they wanted a couple of hundred dollars more for the
    propane system due to their claim of significantly higher product
    liability costs. I don't understand the insurance industry bias against
    propane. Somewhere I read that alcohol accounts for almost all (95
    percent) boat stove fires. 
    
    JR

re insurance:

Do not expect logic when negotiating with insurance underwriters.

                                my insurance agent

    I have CNG and have been on the same bottle all season.  That includes
    using the oven as a heater in April and early May.  The pressure
    guage is under 500 pounds now, so I don't know how long she'll go,
    but 5 days certainly seems unreasonable.  
    
    Availability of replacement tanks is no problem for my cruising
    area (out of Narragansset Bay).  Unlike propane, you simply swap
    your empty tank for a full one.  The cost is $8.
    
    Practical Sailor (which I love to quote) prefers propane.  They've
    written some great comparisons which I could dig up and copy if
    you're interested.
    
    Encore

If you fancy a trip to the Bahamas or some other farther away spot anytime 
in the future, propane should be your choice.  CNG is apparently not 
available many places; propane is a major fuel almost everywhere it seems.

For me, the one big potential advantage of CNg has to do indirectly with 
its safety:  Some boat designs (generally smaller ones than an Ericson 32) 
give up a lot of otherwise needed space for a propane locker.  With a CNG 
bottle, you can stick it in a variety of other locations that won't vent 
from the bottom, as long as attention is paid providing some ventilation 
at the top.

J.

    Thanks for all the responces.  I have decided to leave the order
    alone and keep the propane.  Again thanks for the help.
    
    Frank (REALLY waiting for spring)