Conference unifix::sailing

    My first boat was a Blue Jay.  Other than a 5' difference in length,
    they are identical.  Mine was also glassed wood. It was built in
    the '50s as close as I could determine.
    
    Frank Pascucci owned this one just after I did, maybe he would like
    to also comment.
    
    It is a forgiving design. I thought it was a perfect learning boat.
    We sailed it for 2 seasons. In that time we never dumped it once,
    and remember I was just learning to sail (I had about 10 years
    experience with large motor boats and ships however).
    
    If I had a choice, looking back, I would have preferred a Lightning
    for the extra speed, space, and ability to carry my 200+ pounds.
    I also would have preferred a wood only vs. the glass over wood,
    which I felt contributed to some rot problems and caused maintenance
    problems (wood shrinks and swells, the glass responded by cracking).
    Of course I kept the boat in the water all season. Maybe trailering
    and dry storage would make the glass-over-wood less of a problem. I saw
    some glass only 'Jays and felt they lacked the small yacht class
    that my wood boat had, but they were probably less work and weighed
    less than mine did after a week in the water.

    I think a Lightning is a sound first sailboat choice. You should
    think about having someone experienced with wood boats give you
    an opinion on the soundness of the hull before buying - unless you
    already have experience with wood boats and can identify fastening
    and rot problems.
    
    Good luck,
    Walt

    Let me second Walt's advice about having the wood portions of the
    hull checked out. The fiberglass over wood can be a killer for wood
    because once moisture gets in, there's no place for it to go.
    
    I've sailed on a friend's Lightning several times and you'll enjoy
    her!! 
    
    Ed 

You don't say where you plan to sail the boat. I strongly urge you to buy a 
popular boat in your area and try to meet some of the other owners. Sailing 
together as a group, whether racing or daysailing, is the best way to learn 
and adds to the fun.

In Maine, N.H., and Vermont there a number of Lightning fleets to sail with.
In the other N.E. states, there may also be Lightning fleets; but you may find
more Flying Scots and/or Day Sailers in your area. I think both of these boats
would also meet your need and both are more forgiving than the Lightning. Both
are also all fibreglass designs, so you won't have a problem checking out wood
hulls. There are some previous discussions of Day Sailers and Flying Scots in
this file. 

I used to own a Day Sailer and active in the Class Association. I'd be happy 
to provide you fleet names if you wish.

- Bob

    Glass over wood is often a misguided and/or last ditch attempt to
    avoid necessary hull repairs.  It also tends to make any subsequent
    proper repair attempts nearly impossible.  
    
    Go all wood or all glass on the hull.  While the glass over wood
    may be less expensive, you are likely giving up a lot for that initial
    saving.  
    
    If you are interested in fleet sailing/racing your glass on wood
    will not be to the class specification and with the additional weight
    will not be competitive.
    
    

    Everyone's right about the potential for disaster that putting 'glass
    over wood can lead to.  However, it is possible that on the boat you're
    looking at it was better done than is often the case.  If you want
    to learn more than race right now, and the price is good in comparison
    to other Lightnings, a "hybrid" hull may be just fine.  (It'll
    certainly be heavier than either a glass or wood hull alone.)
    
    If you have no boating friends whose knowledge of these things you are 
    fully confident in, look up "Surveyors--Marine" in the Yellow Pages
    and call several.  Pick one you like in terms of experience (ask),
    willingness (this is a tiny job to them) and price, then swallow hard
    and hire them.  A hundred bucks or so for an opinion may be mighty cheap
    insurance, and if the boat needs work but CAN be fixed, you've got
    some mighty powerful bargaining material in hand.  You could easily
    save the cost of the survey.
    
    If the price of the boat doesn't justify spending a hundred on a
    survey, then probably its value doesn't either.
    
    John.
    
    BTW, if you do hire a surveyor, plan to stick close by as they do
    their survey (ask before hiring -- some don't like that).  You could
    well gain your money's worth in education even if the hull's junk.
    
                             

    I decided against the LIGHTNING, it would require to much work to
    keep it up. Also I have been convinced that it is probably to much
    boat for me. 
    
    Can anyone out there recommend a good size day sailer that I could
    learn to sail with and go out with my family and a few others for
    a day of fun. I am looking for something in the 19' range under
    $2000.

    How much is 17' O DAY day sailer worth? The one I am thinking about
    is 1972 vintage. Is this worth $2500?

    Just talked to Fernalds yesterday and they have a 1968 ODAY DAY
    SAILER I, NO trrailer and NO outboard, $2495.  
    
    If class racing are a posibility the the 'I' reather than the "II"
    is the accepted one. Precisson is no making the 'I' and it sells
    for $3895.
    
    Fernalds also had a 'II', also $2495 but with trailer.
    
    Big diff as I understand it is that the 'II' is self rescuing and
    the 'I' is not. That also means that the 'I' is probably more
    comfortable since the cockpit is deeper.
    
    Fred 223-3935
    

    Well I never did buy that Day Sailer back nearly two years ago.
    I have yet to purchase that first sail boat that I was so excited
    about back then. But it looks like 1989 might be the year that I
    finally sail.
    
    I am considering making an offer on an 1967 BRISTOL SAILSTAR that
    my wife and I have looked at. The boat seems to be in very good
    condition, the hull and deck are very clean with no fractures except
    for a few hairlike at sharp angles in the fiber glass. It's a heavy
    boat at 5900lbs with a full keel and attached rudder. The engine
    is a 1980 Johnson 9.9 with an alternator. The Main and the Jib are
    1967 Hood and are in good condition. It also has a 150 Genoa.
    
    Other equipment are, Electric and manual bilge pumps, fire ext.,
    windex, corsar-compass, batt, 12gal built in gass tank, 20 gal water
    tank, roller reefing Main sail, barient winches, 25lb Yatchsman
    anchor, assorted dishes, boat hook and sterno stove.
    
    This boat appears to have been cared for with TLC, the wood is
    Mahoganey and it all looks bright and newly varnished. The running
    lights and fixtures have been kept polished and clean. The cabin
    is also very clean and nice.
    
    I would like comments on this boat both pro and con.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob                         
    

    
    can 1967 Hood sails *really* be in good condition??

    The checks in the mail. I have made an offer on the Bristol Sailstar
    from reply .9. The asking price is $9,750. I have offered somewhat
    less than that and im hopping.
    
    Would still like comments on the Bristol Sailstar 24'.
    
    Haven't any of you out there owned one of these?
    
    Is there no one who has had hands on experience with this boat?
    
    I didn't think it was a rare breed.

    She's mine, or should I say the Banks, and I will be going to Rochport
    next saturday to begin work on her. I had a marine survey done on
    her and the results were good. There are a few minor fixes to be
    made that I hope to be able to handle myself. One of these is filling
    voids found between the gelcoat and the glass. The surveyor said
    that these were probably there since the boat was built. He said
    I should use a bondo like material to fill these after I have doug
    them out. 
    
    I would like some advice on what bottom paint I should use. The
    boat will be kept at Rockland Maine and will probably be in the
    water from the begining of May to the end of september. There are
    so many different types of paint to chose from and I don't know
    one from an other. I would appreciate your inputs.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob

re .12:

Voids between the gelcoat and the fiberglass? Are these above or below 
the waterline? (I assume the latter.) I'd fill them with epoxy (eg, 
West) mixed with collodial silica (available at many marine 
chandleries). Epoxy is stronger and adheres better.

Bottom paint? What is on the boat now? Some types of bottom paint cannot 
be applied over other types. In the cold waters of Maine most anything 
(except no paint at all) should be satisfactory.

    re .12
    I have a wood cruising hull, not meant these days for racing. I
    still want her to go as fast as she can witin reasonable costs.
    I was paying big bucks for heavily copperd paints, I recall about
    64%. At the advice of a friend, I switched to Woolsey Tradewinds
    at about 48 bucks a gallon. I was at a slip in upper Narragansette
    Bay and found no difference in slime or barnacle build up between
    the 64% copper and the 29% copper paints. I would think that it would
    be more than adequate for Maine waters.
    Don

    The voids are above and below the waterline. How do I fill the voids
    above the waterline?

Er, um, well, topside voids are a bigger problem. No matter how you fill 
them, the patches will show (unless you repaint the topsides). If 
they've been there since the boat was built, I'd ignore them.

        
        I, like Bob, have been looking for years. (see .8) 
        
        I, unlike Bob, have decided to stay with the boat on a trailer
        idea.

        After many phone calls, and many Sunday rides all over eastern
        New England, I have found 'MY' boat. It is, as is often the case,
        a compromise. 
        
        I wanted:
                Mobility
                Fresh water and Coastal
                The ability to store 'gear' on board
                To be able to tow with out changing cars.(1k lb limit)
                'Reasonable' sailing performance
                Moderate to minimal maintenance (ie. not wood)
                Etc.
                3 to 3.5K$
        
        I found:
                1978 SIREN (17'2", a down sized O'Day Mariner)
                Built by Vandesteadt and McGruer of Ont. Canada
                        (Phone not currently in service)
                Hull shape looks much like an O'Day Day Sailer
                165lb center board / swing keel - draws 8"-4'3"
                Has a lockable cuddy with 'berths' for 4? (Ha)
                        2 maybe. But a least storage and place
                        for a 'covered bucket'
                Bow pulpit
                It even has a 'roller furling genny'.
        
        Although the boat is 11 years old, it has not had much use.
        But, neither has it had much care. Ie, not sailed for possibly 5
        years. Complete Boston Globe on cabin sole date 1-Jul-1984.
        Outboard left laying in cabin with fuel, halyards still on mast 
        and main sheet laying in cockpit. But, it had been covered with a
        tarp.
        
        The deal includes:
                Lady Bea 1200#gw tilt trailer
                1978 Sea Gull outboard of unknown power
                        ID # starts 'WSL' (any help?)
                        Fuel remaining in tank was really gross
                        Flushed tank with 100% gas(no oil mixed) 
                        Installed spare spark plug
                        Using fuel with no oil she fired up on second
                                pull of a very short rope immediately 
                                shut it down until I obtain specified 
                                two stroke oil
                Danforth Anchor, Chain and rode
                Assorted Fenders ( 2 large 2 small)
                Boat hook
                Etc.
        
        Boat listed in 1975 SAIL Directory, $2500+ for Boat and Sails
                
        Asking $3k, offer of $2.5k accepted. Its in my drive way.
        
        The Centerboard winch is rusted solid but it appears to be
        nothing more than an 800lb trailer winch.
        
        Rigging missing a pin or two. Most important part missing was the
        3/4" square 1.5" long aluminum block that connected boom to
        mast. Shop manager where my wife works made one up last night.
        
        I would appreciate any comments, suggestions regarding:
                Sea Gull outboards in genereal and size if ID # WSL
                Centerboard winch with removable handle
                Cleaning hull (really not very dull just want to restore 
                        original color [red] as much as possible and    
                        remove as many scratches as i can)
                AND boat ramps from Kittery to Block Island for 
                        day/weekend sailing access from a home 
                        'port' of Lexington, MA.
        
        Fred The-not-too-excited-first-time-owner-of-something-
             with-a-sail-that's-longer-than-ten-feet-who-promises-
             to-not-be-so-long-winded-in-the-future.

    re 537.17
    
    Give me the details of your Seagull (as best as you can) and I will
    contact the makers for you and see what they come up with.
    
    Mike

        Thanks for the offer. A call to IMTRA, the importers, now of New
        Bedford, reveals that the WSL indicates a 'Silver Century' 4hp
        Longshaft (25in).
        
        Since .17, I have had the boat out and decided that the Seagull
        is not what my First Mate had in mind for a moon light cruise.
        
        See listing in For Sale note 263.310.
        
        Have picked up a Tanaka 5.5 with 40watt lighting/charging
        generator. Much quieter and no dead battery.
        
        Thanks,   Fred. 
        

    She's in the water, their are still a few things to be done but
    we launched her last wensday in Rockport Maine and sailed her to
    Rockland where she will spend the summer. It was quite an eventfull
    trip, we were boarded by the coast guard as we approched the entrance
    to Rockland harbor. They did a safety check and were very nice about
    it all. I had trouble with the engine, a 9.9hp Johnson, which i've
    since pulled and taken in to be serviced. I'm looking forward to
    having every thing working well so that I can go for a sail. I am
    amazed at the good condition the sails appear to be in. I am looking
    for someone in Rockland who will be willing to go out with me
    and help me in the learning process. I can't beleive it, I've got
    my own sail boat, her name is PROMISE.

    It's been a while since I last wrote in this note. I have put my
    Bristol up for sale and I am looking forward to upgrading to a larger
    boat. I went out for a test sail on a 1967 ISLANDER 37 yesterday and
    have fallen in love with her. She is a beautiful boat. The hull has
    been gelcoated and the topside has also been totally redone within
    the last two years. She was repowered in 1987 with a new atomic 4. Her
    condition inside and out is imaculate. She sails like a dream. She has
    wheel steering and is equiped with Profurl roller reefing. The jib is a
    fairly new 140% genoa and the main looks old but in good shape.
    
    
    This would be quite a jump from a 24' to a 37' but could very well be
    the last boat I would ever want to own. We had been thinking about a
    Catalina 30' for our next boat but could get this Islander 37' for
    about the same price. 
    
    I would like comments, pro and/con from you out there who have done
    something like this. Also what do you know about these Islanders.
    

re .21:

I'd suggest that you look carefully at more than just the initial cost 
of buying the boat. Every part of a boat eventually wears out (fatigue, 
corrosion, etc) and needs replacement. It sounds as if some parts of the
Islander you looked at have been replaced (eg, the engine), but there is
likely many that have not been. A few exampleS: Is the standing rigging 
(turnbuckles, mast tangs, wire, clevis pins) original? When were the
steering cables last replaced? How corroded is the electrical wiring?
How old are the lifelines? When was the deck hardware last rebedded? How
old are the cabin cushions? Have the seacocks been replaced? Etc, etc, etc. 

I am finding that our now 13 year old boat is requiring more and more 
maintenance and repair. This is becoming increasingly time consuming and 
expensive. I would expect that, without a complete overhaul, with a 25 
year old boat you'd have an ongoing series of small and perhaps major
problems which will require time and money to fix. Repair/replacement
can be surprisingly expensive. Also, what would need upgrading? New
winches? Electronics? Icebox insulation? Etc, etc, etc again. 

And as has been said many times before, bigger is more expensive -- 
mooring/slip fees, winter storage, bottom paint, and so forth. We've also 
found that bigger is less fun is some ways -- simply handling the boat 
and sails is more work, enough so that we've found that a brief day sail 
isn't worth the effort (which may be an early sign of old age -- mine, 
not the boat's). Handling ground tackle for a 37' boat can be a real 
chore, too. 

Depending on what you want to do with the boat, a newer design with 
more interior living space and storage in less overall length may be a 
better idea.

Alan

    I second Alan's remarks. My wife and I went from a 23' to a 36'on deck
    (45ft loa). The jump wasn't bad, it was *wonderful*! Right up to the
    point of all the extra work and expense of a bigger boat. I wouldn't
    trade it for the world and if I had to do it again, I would. But do
    think long and hard about Alan's remarks. Our boat was 10yrs old when
    we purchased her and the age does add to cost after the purchase.
    
    Have fun! It's an exciting and emotional process. Keep as logical as
    possible, you'll do what your heart wants anyway!
    
    Robert

    We have done it again. My wife and I have bought another boat and we
    haven't even sold the BRISTOL yet. After falling in love with the 37'
    ISLANDER and then spending the next 2 and 1/2 months looking at one
    boat after another it happened. We came upon a boat that we both love
    that has all that we think we require and is at a price that we can
    handle if I keep working. We never considered a Pearson because we
    figured a late module would be beyond our means. 
    We have just bought a 1986 PEARSON 303, she is in excellent condition
    has just had a favorable survey and was in our price range. We closed
    on her last friday and I can't wait until spring. This is both scarry
    and excitting but you only come this way once and I dont want to die
    saying I only wish I had done it. 
    Im thankful for the comments I got in the last few notes, they realy
    got me thinking. I think this 30' boat is more reasonable for us and
    were both realy excited about it. 
    So MR Moderator if you would please change the listing of boats to
    reflect PROMISE is now a PEARSON 303.
    
    I sure hope I can sell the BRISTOL 24 in the spring.
    
    Think spring. 

I am looking for a good lake boat for Burlington.
Could you tell me a bit about your Bristol 24?

			Georgia

    The Bristol 24 is a great little boat. It sleeps 4 has fresh water
    system has a marine head has a two burner alchohol stove. Includes VHF
    radio depth finder compass  and is fully equiped to cruise. Has 4 life
    jackets, fenders, cockpit cushions, Ice box, dishes. For more info see
    note 4.388. The price is nogotiable. Give me a call at dtn 271-6579
    if interested.
    
    		Bob P

    I'm interested in a "long-term charter" to try out living aboard before
    actually taking the plunge with a purchased boat.  My plan is to get a
    slip at Constitution Marina and leave it tied up - I've got a
    membership at the Boston Harbor Sailing Club and use their boats for
    cruising.  If the owner of such a boat trusted me - I'd be willing to
    do the typical maintenance tasks (short of overhauling engines and
    such).
    
    I'll be leaving Digital soon (I picked up a new contract) so the most
    reliable email address is 76662,[email protected] or call me at
    617/536-0434.  Try the EPS::GIESE address first though.
    <mark>
    

    Well I'm a one boat owner again, we finalized the sale of our Bristol
    24 last night and out Pearson 303 is at Rockland at our mooring. I can
    hardly wait to get to her this afternoon. I've got lots of work to do
    to get all her systems in good shape but hope to get some sailing in this
    weekend.
    
    If any of you are in Rockland this summer, come on over for a cool one.
    
    Our new boat is a Pearson 303 and her name is PROMISE.
    
    Great sailing to all.

    I thought I would use this note which I started in 1987 to say my good
    byes. Tommorow is my last day working for DEC. I will not be leaving
    but DEC will be. The Augusta plant (ASO) has been sold to SCI systems
    from Huntsville Alabama. We will still be building product for DEC but
    as a contract manufacturer. 
    
    I will realy mis reading and writing in this Notes file. This has been
    a great source of information and learning for me. When I first wrote
    in this file I was getting ready to buy my first Sail Boat and had next
    to no idea what I was getting into. Now I'm getting ready to begin my
    seventh season of sailing. Thanks to many of you who participate in 
    the file and some who have left DEC before now I have safely sailed 
    the coast of Maine and learned to love Sailing more than anything in 
    else my life. I hope to continue for a very long time.
    
    Special thanks to our moderator, Allen Berens, for making this Notes File
    as good as it is. Allen If you would like someone to help Sail (Toward
    Morning) to Rockland this spring I would love the opertunity to Sail
    with you. Anyways I hope to see you in Rockland this summer.
    
    If any of you are ever in the Penobscot Bay area, come on bye to
    Rockland Harbor and visit with me and my wife on PROMISE. We will
    always have a cold one to share with you. We would love to see you.
    
    	 	Bob Pomerleau
    			
    		PROMISE	 (Pearson 303)	Sail #/Documentation #69336
    		Home Phone (207) 622-9635
    		Work Phone (207) 623-6579

    So long, Bob.
    
    	May the wind be at your back, and the seas calm.
    
    	I am on CompuServ, who knows what my account number is there. 
    	Anyway as long as I am contracting for Digital, I will pass through 
    	requests for help etc.  Of course, this must be compliant with
    	Digital's and Sailing Notes' policies and procedures.
    
    Doug Claflin
    wk 719 592-4787
    hm 719 596-7485
    Colorado - long famous for serious voyaging