Conference unifix::sailing

    I like my wheel.  My 25 had a tiller and that was OK.
    
    I like the alternative positions one can assume when wheel steering:
    leeward side and windward side seated on the combing, facing forward
    seated either centered on a U shaped seat or either side of that,
    standing, proped in a corner steering with my toes either side of
    a wheel spoke, seated sideways forward of the wheel (ala tiller
    position).  In any one day I will likely assume all of these. I
    recall being uncomfortable in any tiller steering position except
    seated sideways in the windward cockpit seat.
    
    I dont know of anyone who hasnt got their wheel marked for zero
    rudder, since most wheels are less than 2 turns lock to lock,
    there isnt much chance for confusion unless you are new to the boat.
    
    The mechanical advantage of the wheel over a tiller, means my wife
    can steer when there is helm pressure, for more than 5 minutes.
    
    Walt

    I dispute par. 10.  A wheel is infinitely less obtrusive than a
    tiller under almost all circumstances.  The only exception that
    comes to mind may occurr when the boat is at anchor and the tiller
    tied up out of the way.  I've never left my tiller that way for
    long because the rudder wants to waft about in the wind and current
    and I worry about my 18 year old rudder bearing.
    
    Also, for sailing down wind with the chute up, the cockpit full
    of bodies trying pull strings, and the boat wanting very much to
    brouch, the wheel is the only civilized way to go.  Otherwise your
    spinnaker winch grinders better wear kidney belts.
    
    But, going upwind, no wheel can compare with the responsiveness or
    visibility available with a tiller.  There's just no way you can
    get high enough or foward enough with a wheel to steer comfortably.
    I've found this to be especially true in waves when you have to
    steer quickly.  One trick I've tried with no success is to put my
    hiking stick on the vertical wheel spoke.  It works until a wave
    knocks the bow off enough to require more than a quarter turn to
    get back on course.  This was with a 2 turns lock-to-lock wheel.
    It might work better on a wheel that requires fewer turns.
    
    If I were confronted with the choice, I'd decide based on the intended
    use for the boat.  Serious racing - go  with the tiller if I could
    get the right set up for winches ( get 'em forward ).  Otherwise
    the wheel, especially if I were going to take non sailing friends
    out.  Whenever I've said "steer it just like a car", they have no
    problem.  The reverse mental transcription needed for the tiller
    drives non sailors crazy.
                      
                             

    I converted my Columbia 29 from a tiller to a wheel 2 years ago
    and love it.  I agree with some of your list of shortcomings, but
    in general it has proven its worth.  
    
    If you install a brake on the wheel you can set the direction and
    do a lot of things on deck that just couldn't be done without going
    through the gyrations of tying off the tiller.
    
    You are correct about the adapter for the wind vane.  I installed
    a drum on my wheel for my Fleming.  It does stick out from the wheel,
    but the advantage of leaving the vane lines rigged and only pulling
    the pin on the drum to disconnect it is nice.
    
    I also have the problem of room in the cockpit.  I have a narrow
    cockpit and find getting around the wheel difficult (note my offer
    in #263 of exchanging my 24" wheel for a 20").  On our trip to bermuda
    the wheel performed beautifully.  With the brake set snugly the
    boat steered itself most of the time and slight adjustments were
    just a tweak of the wheel.  That was after the wind vane was damaged
    but being hit by a boat at the mooring in Bermuda.
    
    If you haven't sailed a boat with a wheel I'd suggest you do it
    before you think of converting.  You'll find it less exciting, but
    more relaxing for long journeys.
    
    If you want to buy a wheel steerer, I would suggest you wait until
    next fall.  Edson, in New Bedford, has a sale of equipment on the
    day after Thanksgiving.  Discounts of up to 50% can be realized.
    My steerer, complete, listed for $1200 and BOAT/US could only get
    a 15% discount.  I was able to put together a system at the Edson
    sale for $750.  A substantial savings.
    
    Good Luck!
    

If I may be serious now ...

For me one of the most fascinating and frustrating aspects of sailing is
the need for design compromises -- what works well in one set of
circumstances man not work well in another set. 

Yes, I've sailed some on three wheel steered boats, one of them in a 
near gale. I found steering that boat wetter (even with a dodger) and 
much, much more tiring than steering my own boat (heavier, no dodger, 
tiller) in similar conditions. The cockpit on this particular (quite
popular) boat was simply very poorly designed for wheel steering, I 
thought. The narrow cockpit of our boat, designed for a tiller, provides
a variety of comfortable steering positions, and it is easy for the
helmsperson to brace him or herself in the cockpit in rough weather. 

With the placement of the winches, etc, on our boat, the helmsperson can 
steer and trim main, staysail, and genoa without the aid of an autopilot 
or another crewperson. Since the halyard and main and staysail sheet 
winches are at the aft end of the coachroof, the helmsperson can also 
steer and handle sheets, halyards, topping lift, downhauls, etc, while a 
second crewperson tends to the deck work of reefing or headsail 
changing. Really, with the tiller two people can sail our 32' boat in 
any conditions without self-steering. Replacing the tiller with a wheel 
would make a third crewperson necessary in many circumstances. I 
wouldn't convert to wheel steering on our boat no matter how little it 
cost.

Yes, a wheel may be less obtrusive than a tiller, especially if you have 
a large crew cluttering the cockpit. I found getting around the wheels 
I've used awkward and difficult, even with a T-shaped cockpit. I find 
getting over and around my tiller easy, but then there are usually only 
two people in the cockpit. 

And yes, a wheel may require less steering effort, but a well designed 
and tuned boat shouldn't require much steering effort. 

What we are all saying is that there are times wheels are better and 
times when tillers are better. We each make our own choice after some 
weighing of the relative advantages and disadvantages. 

Chuckle, chuckle, this rabble rousing can be fun.

    As long as we're on the subject of opinions:
    
    Advantages wheel:
    
    1.  You can sit directly behind the wheel so you don't get a stiff
    neck from always craning your head 90 degrees to the bow.
    
    2.  Engine controls are at your fingertips, not on the opposite
    side of the cockpit.
    
    3.  Instruments can be hung on the pedistal so you don't have to
    bother the first mate who is snoozing with her back against the
    bulkhead.
    
    4.  You can lock the wheel for short periods with the flip of a
    lever.  No need to tie it like a tiller.
    
    5.  More useable room in cockpit, especially when coming about.
     People don't have to trip over the tiller when going to the high
    side.
    
    6.  Autopilot can be mounted below deck, out of weather.
    
    7.  Can mount swim/boarding ladder on stern for those places where
    you have to back in to dock and tie up between pilings.  (I know,
    I know.  This is only an advantage if you're comparing against
    outboard-hung rudders).
    
    8.  Ability to assume a macho stance for photographs.
    
    Advantages of tiller:
    
    1.  Ability to hike out.
    
    2.  Much cheaper autopilots available.
    
    3.  More responsive on the wind.
    

    As a charterer, I'v sailed with both frequently.
    
    I'm now building a 36' boat with tiller steering. The designer sailed
    a tiller boat from England to Vancouver, so I trust his layout.
    Main advantage is ease of fitting self-steering (transom-hung rudder).
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

I'm mostly replying so my node name will indicate my preference.

Most of the goods and bads of both steering techniques have been mentioned,
except that sheet to wheel cheapo self steering is much more dificult than
sheet to tiller. With a tiller all you need to implement sheet-to-tiller self
steering (and to turn your cockpit into spagetti) is a piece of surgical
tubing, a little rope and a few blocks. 

Having sailed with both on many size boats, i think a tiller up to 32-35
(maybe 36) feet is better because of the ability to feel the boat
while sailing, and enjoy the roomier cockpit while not. Past 36 feet, a tiller 
gets pretty tough to hold when one has "postponed" reduction of sail area.

Last week I had the pleasure of sailing a Bristol 35.5 in Maine for
three days. This was the first time I had sailed a wheel-steered boat in
quite some time. Once again I found that I don't much like wheel 
steering systems, and while drifting in a calm the second day I found 
myself thinking the following (only not so neatly):

Steering a boat requires turning the rudder. This is the same as saying 
that torque must be applied to the rudder shaft. 

For a tiller steered boat, the applied torque equals the force applied
to the tiller (push or pull) times the length of the tiller.
Mathematically, T = Ft x Lt where Ft is the force applied to a tiller of
length Lt. 

A wheel steering system is equivalent to a very long tiller of, say,
length Lw > Lt. 

Thus to apply the same torque to the rudder shaft implies that 

     T = Ft x Lt
       = Fw x Lw             (Fw is the force applied to the wheel)

Since Lw is greater than Lt, Fw is less than Ft:

     Fw = Ft x (Lt/Lw)       (no friction in wheel system)
     Fw > Ft x (Lt/Lw)       (friction in wheel system)

Since there is always friction in a wheel steering system, Fw is always 
greater than Ft x (Lt/Lw) -- 10% is maybe a reasonable assumption. 

Actually steering the boat requires moving the tiller or wheel some
distance. In physics, work done equals force x distance. For a given
angular rotation of the rudder, the work done is (approximately) 

     Wt = Ft x Lt x angle                    (tiller)
     Ww = Fw x Lw x angle                    (wheel)

Thus, inescapably, due to friction, the work that must be done to steer
a wheel-steered boat is greater than the work required for the same boat
with a tiller since Fw is greater than Ft x (Lt/Lw). 

So why the popularity of wheel steering? Well, the above reasoning is
valid for actually turning the rudder. When simply holding the rudder
position constant (eg, to overcome weather helm), less force must be
applied to a wheel than to a tiller, and hence wheel steering is
perceived to be less tiring. In this case, by the way, in the sense of
physics, no work is being done. 

Real life is a combination of moving the rudder and keeping the rudder 
position constant and it seems to me that the answer to the question of 
whether wheel steering or tiller steering is less tiring is not entirely 
clear. As the weather becomes worse (larger waves, stonger winds), 
relatively less time is spent holding the rudder position constant and 
more time is spent adjusting the rudder position. 

On our 32' boat, I can brace my feet on the leeward cockpit seat and
pull on the tiller with whatever force is needed. I have steered for
extended periods in rough weather without excessive fatigue. 

I found on the Bristol that I was sailing that standing behind the wheel
with the boat heeled in a brisk breeze and chop was quite uncomfortable
and tiring, even for a short time. Sitting on the windward cockpit seat
meant pushing the wheel away from me with a very awkward bend in my
wrist. Very tiring and actually painful after a while. My arms are much
stronger pulling (especially with my feet braced) than pushing. Sitting
to leeward I couldn't see where I was going. Steering still required
uncomfortable arm and wrist positions. Of course, there may be cockpit
designs for which wheel steering is less uncomfortable and tiring. There
was no way to sit behind the wheel on the Bristol I was sailing. 

However, all this aside, the fact that wheel steering requires more work 
(in the physics meaning) has an interesting implication for autopilots. 
Simply, an above deck autopilot that operates on a wheel (eq, an 
Autohelm 3000) will require more electrical power than an autopilot that 
operates on a tiller (eg, an Autohelm 2000). There is likely more friction 
as well in the Autohelm 3000 than the 2000. This too increases the 
electrical power consumed. 

Moreover, a tiller autopilot will probably be able to apply a given
steering correction faster than a wheel autopilot, and hence the tiller
autopilot will steer more accurately. 

    re .8	You lost me toward the end.  Yes, a wheel driving auto
    pilot will take more power (than a tiller driving auto pilot) to
    turn the rudder;  but no, it will take less to maintain its position,
    since the friction is in its favor.
    
    	There's also some confusion between efficiency and response speed.
    Although less efficient I have to believe that a wheel driving auto
    pilot "could" be built to turn the rudder as fast as anyone would
    ever need/want it turned.  Power efficiency of rudder turning devices
    does not map directly to course accuracy.

    	Reg
    

    RE: .8

    Geeez.  You really think about stuff like that while sailing?

        As I understand it, a number of autopilots for wheel
        steering boats actually connect below decks directly
        to the rudder.  In effect, this is really tiller steering
        as far as the autopilot is concerned.
        
        Of course, the wheel is turned in the process...

    Alan, made a comment about no work being done (at least the physics)
    when the wheel or tiller is not being moved.
    
    Thats like saying that a hovering helicopter is not doing work just
    because its not moving.
    
    Unless one is moving on dead flat water in a boat with no helm bias
    at all there are dynamic forces which the helmsperson must counter
    just to hold that wheel or tiller in place (there is also the brake).
    
    
    Of course none of this proves one is better than the other. Fact
    is either can be inappropriate, either can be the best choice depending
    on the boat design. Naturally, someone who dislikes wheels as much
    as Alan seems to, will not likely favor a boat with a T shaped cockpit,
    no matter how well designed the perches for a helmsperson. The wheel 
    keeps getting in the way.

    By the way, according to the Autohelm literature, the rudder midships
    to rudder locked times for the 2000 and 3000 are about the same,
    with a wheel that does this in 1 turn or less (common on boats under
    40'). 

    
    Walt

re .12:

Sorry, the helmsperson does no work when holding the rudder position
constant (in the physics sense). Your helicopter is doing a lot of work
-- its rotor blades are moving a considerable mass of air. 

According to my Autohelm data sheets, the minimum time for the Autohelm 
3000 to turn the wheel one full turn is 20 seconds and the Autohelm 2000 
applies maximum steering in just under 4 seconds (these are for light 
loads and for the older models).

Speed of response is important in rough weather. It is interesting to 
watch our Monitor windvane steer upwind. It applies maximum steering 
correction very fast -- probably under a second -- and it reacts to 
even small changes in course so quickly that rarely is the tiller moved 
more than a little. It takes intense concentration by a human 
helmsperson to steer as well.

I've sailed one boat with a T-shaped cockpit. Yup, the wheel was awkward
to get around. The seating positions possible were much more comfortable
than the Bristol but still less comfortable than those for my tiller.
The wheel was also positioned at the very aft end of the cockpit. I was
very glad I wasn't sailing downwind in a big sea -- the thought of a
wave filling the cockpit and slamming me against the wheel and pedestal
wasn't pleasant. The aft position of the wheel would probably allow 
spray and water coming over the companionway dodger to hit the 
helmsperson.  

To be sure, past a certain boat size the mechanical advantage of a wheel 
becomes essential. I would argue, though, that a tiller can be used on 
a well-balanced boat over 40'. Francis Stokes used a tiller on his 
Valiant 40 in the OSTAR and other singlehanded offshore races. 

Alan

    Now let's see if I got this straight.
    
    Advantages of a tiller:
    
      1. The macho feeling of power and command that grasping a
         tiller creates.
    
    or maybe,
    no,
    wait, I'm soooo confused,
    lets see..........

    How does that go again Alan? :^) :^) :^)

    JR

    Don't downplay the socio-economic value of the wheel.  The wheel
    rates right up there with roller furling, duct tape and squeeze
    Parkay to sailors in particular and mankind as a whole.  In fact,
    the invention of the wheel marked the beginning of some significant
    historical event like The Dark Ages or The Gettysburg Address. 
    And could you imagine Vanna White doing "Tiller of Fortune?"
    
    There is also significant religious evidence surrounding the
    superiority of the wheel.  As we all know, tillers are straight
    and wheels are curved.  Now, hold your hand out straight!  Do you
    think you could pick up a beer like that?  Of course not. First
    you have to curve your hand like a wheel.  Now what do you think God
    is trying to tell you about the relative merits of wheels vs. tillers?
    
    

In the "physics" sense of the word, i think work is defined as effort expended
over time. For example, a 25 watt light burning for 1 hour uses 25 watt-hours,
a measure of work. Thus if you exert 20 lbs of force on a tiller over 5 sec to
turn the boat and 15 lbs of force on a wheel over 10 sec, you have done more 
work but exerted less effort. If this affect was not perceived as being easier 
(that is less effort over more time) we would all be riding 1 speed bikes up 
steep hills, rather that the friction-prone 10-speeds!

Tillers are fine up to the point where your usual crew says "The wheel 
steering we tried on the xxx-33 seemed easier...".

    There's something else that I haven't seen mentioned yet and that's
    teaching a neophyte how to steer.  My better half is *extremely* left
    handed, to the point that if you offer a suggestion which contains
    the terms 'Left' or 'Right', she'll inevitably make a Left-handed to
    Right-handed correction and wind up doing the wrong thing.
    
    She was acutely miserable the first couple of years we chartered, all
    boats with tillers.  I tried every memory trick I could think of but
    my suggestions only served to confuse her more.  And it always seemed
    that when she *did* do the right thing, a big wave or gust would spin
    the boat the wrong direction, which would cause her to try to
    correct, etc., etc.
    
    Finally we moved up to a Bristol 35.5 with a wheel and for the first
    time she actually enjoyed sailing.  She could steer the boat like an
    automobile and, because she could do it standing up, she could even
    see over the cabin top.  This not only made her feel like she was
    contributing but it freed me up to do all the really fun things like
    getting the anchor aboard and cleaning off the scuzz-encrusted chain.
    
    Tillers may be the answer for you purists - seems to me that the
    Swede's built an America's Cup challenger in the early 70's that had
    a tiller "for it's greater sensitivity" - but for keeping an
    inexperienced (and highly skeptical) crew in line, I'll take a wheel.

RE:.17 by BCSE::SUITS

> How about for beginners? 
> There's something else that I haven't seen mentioned yet and that's
> teaching a neophyte how to steer.  

Having taught six (or more people),  I can give what I think is the
best method.  On a moderate day,  with no waves, on a reach (or under 
power),  give them the helm.  First,  you show them doing a slow s-turn 
(10 degrees or so), by pushing the tiller,  holding for a few seconds, 
then pulling the tiller, and holding for a few seconds.  Then, you let 
them do s-turns.  Everyone so far has got it good enough one session to 
steer in moderate conditions.  Of course,  waves,  lots of wind,  close 
quarters, backing up, close hauled, low winds, and doing anything else 
at the same time complicate matters a lot.... And a lot of these are 
harder to do with a wheel.


> My better half is *extremely* left handed
    
Mine too.


Phil

	This sounds like a religious issue! 

	I'm new (again) to sailing (having been out of it since 1960 or so), 
	but have sailed with both (mostly as a guest gopher) 
	and see the issue as 

	a) if the helmsman position is set up right for the type of
	   steering, so the person can sit/stand comfortably then its
	   religion of the owner

	b) if the helm position is set up wrong its HELL!

	c) if your alternate helmsman doesn't feel natural with a tiller 
	   but can drive a car well, then you OUGHT to have a wheel cause
	   it's no fun sailing alone with someone else sitting there.

        I've been amazed at some of the LOUSY cockpit layouts around! My
	two least favorites were a 'T' with a wheel and all the sit/lean
	areas a full arms length from the wheel, and a straight cockpit
	with a tiller where you either sat and steered with your feet
	(the owner had never heard of a tiller extension, and didn't believe
	in adding anything he hacked up),or stood and steered with your 
	hands/arm-pits. (both were in my other life, thank GOD)
		
        The best I've ever used was with a wheel, but extensively modified
	by the owner to provide maximum comfort/control. 
	I also like the O'day DS with an extension (its a tiller). 

	(My wife always said I was an agnostic anyway....) ;-)

	<gjm>

	

>>>	b) if the helm position is set up wrong its HELL!

>>>	c) if your alternate helmsman doesn't feel natural with a tiller 
	   but can drive a car well, then you OUGHT to have a wheel cause
	   it's no fun sailing alone with someone else sitting there.

But what if both are true?        :-)

But you're right -- some of us worship at the alter of the great god 
TILLER and some worship at the alter of the great god WHEEL. 

Have you seen a 'Mini-12'?  It is a scale copy of a 12 meter that holds
one person.  It is steered with foot pedals, as hands are busy with 
sail lines, and there is no space for a wheel or a tiller.
 

My answer is to use what works best for the size boat and conditions
sailed in.

A tiller on a 12-meter sounds out of scale as much a wheel on a hobie
cat.

Phil

>  re .12:
>
>  Sorry, the helmsperson does no work when holding the rudder position
>  constant (in the physics sense). Your helicopter is doing a lot of work
>  -- its rotor blades are moving a considerable mass of air. 

By that argument, couldn't one also say that a sailboat moves a rather 
large mass of air by changing its speed and direction, as evidenced by the
heeling forces and forward motion?  (Consider close-hauled upwind as an
extreme example.)  One of the main ways in which that system is held in
straight-line equilibrium is by the substantial force of water past the
rudder, which the helm of either a tiller- or wheel-steering boat must
match/overcome.  Holding the helm steady in order to maintain sailing a
straight line is essentially doing work by redirecting a large airmass
hitting the sails. 

For me, the choices usually boil down not to amount of force required vs.
speed of steering (which has as much to do with hull and sail design as
size,) but rather 1) on the sensitivity and feel, which can be designed
into either tiller or wheel, and 2) getting around the cockpit.   In both
cases there are dumb designs and nifty ones.  Rarely today if you pick a
boat you like in every other way do you have a clear choice of either. 

Ya pays yer money an' ya takes yer choice.
                                            J.

re .22:

Actually, the wind is doing work by moving the sailboat. The energy in 
the wind is transferred to the sailboat through the complex interaction 
of wind, sails, hull, and water.

However, again, in physics, work = force applied times the distance
whatever the force is applied to is moved. When steering, the
helmsperson applies force to the tiller (or wheel). When the tiller (or
wheel) is held in a fixed position, there is no movement, and hence the
helmsperson does no work. This is true regardless of the work being done 
by other forces (the wind, for example). 

Alan

    Since this is one of those fun topics that's going nowhere I thought
    that those of you who don't subscribe to Practical Sailor might
    like to see what they said on the subject:
    
    <Reprinted without permission>
    
                            Tiller or Wheel?
    
    It is all well and good to talk about the quality of wheel steering
    systems. However, the basic question is whether your boat should
    have a wheel system at all. The purists insist that the tiller is
    the only way to go, but the truth remains that when God prompted
    man to invent the wheel, He didn't do it simply to make a stick
    obsolete.
    
    Quite simply a properly designed and installed steering system should
    make a boat steer easier than with a tiller; the larger the boat
    the greater the improvement. True, as the racing sailor knows, a
    wheel is not as sensitive or responsive as a tiller. At the same
    time, big boats and cruising boats do not want or need ultimate
    sensitivity. What is desirable in a racing boat becomes a source
    of effort on a cruising boat.
    
    Then there are some often overlooked benefits from wheel steering.
    A wheel lets a boat be steered like the familiar automobile or bicycle:
    turn the way you want to go, not the opposite as with a tiller.
    A novice behind the wheel does not have to unlearn anything; at a
    tiller there is much to unlearn. A 15,000 pound boat with a wheel
    can be steered by a child; the same boat with a tiller will steer
    the child.
    
    There is the argument that the pedestal and wheel obstruct the cockpit.
    They do. (For that matter, a mast obstructs the deck.) So does a
    tiller, especially when it needs to be swung in an arc. And the
    point is, in this world of compromise, which is more important to
    the basic function of a boat, the convenience of an unobstructed
    cockpit or the necessity of an efficient way to steer her?
    
    There is rarely justification for the typical wheel steering system
    in small production boats, say those under 27' or so. The cost is
    high relative to the benefits. Similarly, even the light, high
    performance boats are likely to be better off with a tiller.
    
    The purists may scoff at the alternatives to a tiller, but the chances
    are they are either hotshot racing types or they have docile, balanced
    boats that do not dislocate the shoulder on a broad reach in a breeze.

    re .24	The (original) author lost credibility with me at the
    mention of turning a bicycle's wheel (musta meant handlebars ?) in
    the intended direction.  Anyone care to guess which way a bicycle
    will in fact turn when the bars are turned left ?
    
    	Reg
    

R .16
    
    Work is force * distance. It is measured in units like Joule (newton
       meters) or foot pounds.
    
    power is work per unit time. it is measured in units like watts
      (joule/second) horsepower

    
    It takes less power to move a wheel on a big boat, that's why a child
    can pilot a large boat with a wheel.  
    
    It all boils down to:
    
       o  what you religious convictions are.
       o  who is doing the piloting.
       o  What size boat you have.
    
    
    :-)

>>  ..... that's why a child can pilot a large boat with a wheel.  
    
But SHOULD a child pilot a large boat?    :-)

Hey, he's from california, out there some children OWN large boats!

And why not, I'd rather see a child with a large boat than a large gun
like I've seen in Texas and Oklahoma.....

(this ought to set some knickers in an uproar.....;-) )

    I once heard 'purist' defined as "someone who has made one less
    compromise than you".

    Thus, since I own a fiberglass boat with a wheel, a purist is
    someone with a fiberglass boat and a tiller.
    
    To him, a purist is someone with a wood boat and tiller.
    
    And to him, a purist is someone with a wood boat, wheel, and
    three masts.
    
    I'm sure, eventually we'll find that the only _real_ purist
    has got this raft made out of papyrus reeds...... and tiller?

    JR  :^)

    re: .-2
    
    You mean Texas "equalizers"?? Ya gotta admit they do tend to keep
    off the "stinkpots" ;-).
    
    [Actually I'm not a native Texan, just learned to tolerate them
    from an early age......from Louisiana]
    

    Hate to jump in so late.  Likely no one will read this
    unless your just purusing.
    
    At any rate, regarding those notes about "work in the physics
    sense," Mr. Clark was accurate when he drew the analogy between 
    holding a tiller in a static position and a helicopter hovering.  
    Mr. Berens dismissed the analogy out of hand, saying that the 
    whirring rotors of the 'copter are displacing a large volume of air, 
    but could someone please tell me what it is that the rudder is 
    displacing when it's held static.  
    
    Or did I miss something?

You missed something. Again, in the physics sense, work equals force 
applied times the distance whatever that force is applied to moves. If 
you push very hard against a large rock (you apply force) and the rock 
doesn't move, you've done no work. If you apply a force to a tiller or 
wheel without moving it (ie, keep the rudder position constant), you as 
the helmsman have done no work. In the helicopter, the blades are moving 
and displacing air, ie, the blades are doing work. The water moving past 
a rudder applies a force on the rudder and the boat changes direction. 
The water has done work on the boat.

Alan

    And here I always thought that the rudder was used -- in conjunction 
    with the water -- to offset the wind's tendancy to make the boat 
    round up.  Although the helmsman isn't moving, he provides the effort
    whereby water is deflected -- is moved -- to offset that
    tendancy.  That is the critical difference between holding the
    helm and pushing on a rock.  No?

No. Concentrate on the helmsman. He does no work when holding the tiller 
or wheel position constant. Imagine a well-balanced boat sailing on a 
constant course with the tiller lashed. Would you argue that the lashing 
lines are doing work? A sailing sailboat is an extremely complex system in 
which the energy in the wind does all the work (neglecting the crew) 
of moving the boat.

    The work done by a rudder is equal to the delta energy of the water
    whose velocity is changed as a result of the action of the rudder
    foil. As usual in hydrodynamic flow, both lift and drag components
    contribute. We were all confounded in elementary statics by the
    notion that someone who was holding up a weight without moving it
    was doing no work. But that is not analogous to someone resisting
    the thrust of the tiller; a LOT of work is going into changing the
    velocity of a lot of water the boat moves through. The exact analogy
    is the work required to hold the rudder at a fixed angle when the
    boat is motionless.
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

Right, a lot of work is being done, but not by the helmsman. The 
helmsman holding the tiller/wheel motionless is a static situation from 
the viewpoint of the helmsman. To argue that the helmsman is doing work 
in this situation is to argue that the crewman sitting on the rail is 
doing work. The helmsman is exerting force (no question), but that force 
is not moving anything, so by definition (used in physics) the helmsman 
is doing no work. Again, if the helmsman is replaced by a lashed tiller, 
are the lashing doing work?

Alan

    RE .34, .35, with apologies to Walt.
    
    Well, I've never lashed a rudder because conditions were perfect
    -- in the physics sense -- but if you remove any motion on the 
    part of the helmsman, then I guess you do indeed have a complex 
    static system in which the helmsman funtions like the rotor blades'
    pitch -- which I'll assume is fixed when a 'copter is hovering -- 
    and the engine is the wind.  IF, as in Alan's strict usage of the 
    "physics sense" of work, motion is REQUIRED to constitute work, then it
    would seem the helmsman doesn't do any work under the condiditions
    defined, but the calories consumed would certainly contribute to 
    the entropy of the Universe.  
    
                   "Yeah, and the helmsman might get tired even."
                                 -- Gilligan ;)
    
    Ross, are you being sarcastic?  If so, please jab a few times
    before you deliver the knock-out -- morons like me need to be
    tenderized.  ;)  If not, please elucidate on your concluding analogy
    vis-a-vis Alan's definition of work, ie explain how holding a rudder
    when the boat is motionless constitutes work.
    
    Sorry Walt.  :(
      ;)
    
    Has anyone ever suggested a "Sailing Notes Rendezvous?"  Might be
    interesting -- certainly challenging. :)
    
    Cheers,
    Dean Fachon

As one who has shed some heat (maybe a little light?) several replies 
back, let me rephrase my concern in selecting tiller vs. wheel:

Speed, feel, simplicity, cost -->  tiller  (mostly on smaller boats.)

*Force*, cockpit space, autohelm set-up  -->  wheel  (larger boats.)

Whether it's work or force, I know what's hard to do and what's easy. 
And there are times when helm position and weather/sea conditions combined
with a particular hull shape conspire to make a wheel ideal. 

J.

    Actually, my real engineering days are too far behind me to remember
    the proper analysis of this situation. As I recall, the important
    part of the definition of work is that is measures change in energy,
    conventionally with a + sign (an agent does work if it adds energy
    to a system).
    
    For simple static systems, work is force times distance; thus as
    Alan correctly states, no motion = no work.
    
    A boat beating to windward is a dynamic system with (hopefully)
    a stable energy balance. The energy supplied to the system by the
    wind is balanced by the energy lost to the water in friction,
    generated wave trains, and turbulence. Since the chemical energy
    required by your body to generate a constant force doesn't appear
    in this balance, you are doing no work as you sit at the helm, just
    as a lashing doesn't.
    
    Sorry for the confusion; I'll remember the boundary of the system
    next time...
    
    Ross Faneuf