Conference unifix::sailing

    "Old Salts" tend to have similar opinions of everything that wasnt
    there before them.   They also say old salts dont die they just
    get a little dingy.  There is a smidgen of truth in most "sayings"
    and other old salt quotes.
    
    Walt 8^) 

    Let me add my recent "Old Salt" experience: This past Sunday at
    Bend Boat Basin I was doing commissioning work on my new boat when
    the epitome of what Hollywood would describe as an "Old Salt" strolled
    by. He would have been perfect casting for the 'Popeye' role. Cap,
    pipe, beard, squinty eyes, horizontal stripe tee shirt with bulging
    muscles, bow legged swagger, etc., etc. For all I could tell it
    look like he'd just returned from a year of rounding all the world
    Cape's
    
    Unfortunately he blew the image when he stopped and said, "Excuse
    me, but can you tell me what kind of boat this is? I'm thinking about
    getting into sailing but I can't tell the boats apart with all their
    funny little symbols."
    
    John

    (Legitimate "Old Salts" such as Tristan Jones seem to adjust quite
    nicely to modern contraptions. Witness his furling equipped trimaran.)

    Roller furlling 'taint new. Its been around for >50 years... The
    'problem' I have seen is the move away from bronze 'overbuilt'(you
    can't overbuild as far as I am concerned) to various plastic/poorly
    engineered/light weight copies. I have seen the results of overstressed
    gear which, aside from added cost, can cause one to be left with
    a large genny hanging out in a blow with no way to get under control
    without taking down the whole shebang. A friend had this happen
    several years ago and almost lost his boat and crew while trying
    to get the solid-rod down and curled up/down the open hatch while
    off P-town one night. I know: he should of done this all before
    night-fall/storm...
    
    Jones/Street et al seem to stay with the bronze oldies. Me? Still
    use a down haul. 
    Ed

    Tristan ain't staying with the bronze oldies. If you read the sailing
    rags you'll see his face plastered all over the place hawking the
    latest in 'high tech'.

    Alan brought up the desirability/problems with roller furling in
    note 420.6.  Since this note was started by him and addresses
    roller furling in the title, I thought it appropriate to re-open
    the note and solicit opinions from those with and without roller
    furling.   Specific make/model of gear, sails, problems, endorsements,
    and usage from your first hand experience would be most useful to
    those who are considering new headsails/headsail systems.
    
    Mr. Moderator.  Could we add a KEYWORD like FURLING or ROLLER_FURLING
    to the list (and this basenote) ?
    
    Walt

    I have used a HOOD Seafurl 25-35 on our Tartan 33 since commissioning
    in 1984.  We have a 125% genoa of traditional cut and medium weight
    cloth that measures 300 square feet.  The sail is cut slightly flat
    compared with a similar hanked on sail of similar weight.
    
    We have NEVER experienced a single snag using the sail.  We have
    sailed with it rolled down to about 95% with acceptable close
    reach performance in winds up to about 40Kts.  Closer to the wind
    or with higher wind it is best rolled up. This is where a second
    headstay for a hank-on 90% jib would be handy.  Speaking of high
    winds and rolling things up, we sailed back to home base during
    that big blow a month or so back when the wind peaked somewhere
    around 50kts (for moments) and was >35 sustained. We went from full
    to 95% and then 0% headsail as the wind built that day without any
    problems.   When rolled to 95% the draft is quite deep forward
    which limits pointing (unless we could stand to sail with the luff
    flapping) to a close reach. Maybe this would be better with a radial
    cut sail, I dont know.
    
    A negative note or 2.  My particular version of the Seafurl (they
    ECO these thing a lot I hear) cannot be removed for maintenance
    with out removing the Norseman fitting at the bottom of the headstay.
    That is a royal pain.  MY lower end (drum and reef line guide) were
    painted instead of anodized. Last season the nicks in the paint caused
    some salting of the aluminum and required me to chip the loose paint
    (actually a wire wheel), sand and repaint the drum. I had to do
    this with the unit in place. I understand that HOOD changed the
    system in '84 to a removable drum. I dont know whether they are
    anodizing all the new ones or not.
    
    A dockmate experienced a major failure in his Hood system (the latest
    one with the round foil and continuous line drive) due to an
    installation error.   The foil is held up and from turning by a
    single bolt (machine screw) thru a sleeve attached to the drum and
    into the foil. The screw goes thru the foil at the luff groove into
    a hole which captures the foil. The yard that put the system in,
    used too short a screw, which one day allowed the foil to slide down
    inside the sleeve on the drum. The swivel at the top came off the
    foil and when the owner tried to furl, the halyard wrapped around
    the headstay. Since the swivel was now above the foil, he could
    not lower the sail either (untill he went aloft and released the
    sail from the swivel). Unfortunately the short screw problem was
    not visable and did not manifest itself untill it was howling.
    Fortunately, the owner did manage to secure the sail before it
    self destructed, and correcting the problem involved simply selecting
    a proper screw (and 3 people to hold everything while it was put
    in). This was first hand experience (as opposed to second or third
    hand recounting over drinks). I was there to help recover and correct 
    the problem. 

    In summary, I think the roller headsail is one of the best things
    we chose for the boat (the cockpit dodger is another), and I would
    recommend the concept to anyone (and the Seafurl 25-35 if the finish
    and drum removal are truely improved).  I would suggest you go over any 
    system you plan buy, to thoroughly understand exactly how it goes 
    together and comes apart, what its made of and how finished before 
    purchase. If a yard installs it, you should go over every inch 
    (taking out screws an checking for proper size and installation) 
    THEN locktite the screws to prevent accidents.

    Walt

    I have real reservations about installing roller furling on the
    boat I am building (36' double headsail sloop). I have had about
    10 years of charetering experience; about 1/2 of the boats had roller
    furling. NONE were satisfactory; the worst (which is indelibly etched
    in my memory) was a C&C 36 with HOOD Seafurl; it had been either
    improperly installed or poorly maintained. The bail at the top of
    the luff rod which is supposed to keep the halliard properly aligned
    was bent or in the wrong place, and at unpredictable interval the
    halliard would wrap and jam the gear. This could happen either setting
    or furling the sail. Freeing it again required every expedient you
    can imagine - alternately hauling the sheet and furling line, manually
    untwisting, etc.
    
    Other boats I've sailed don't stand out so vividly, but jamming
    was just too frequent. My observations on these rigs, and reading,
    (see e.g. "Blue Water Green Skipper") convince me that furling gear
    is OK if:
    	1. It is properly installed (VERY exacting, somewhat unlikely)
    	2. It is properly maintained (ditto)
    	3. It is robust and well designed (a few are; see Practical
    	   Sailor).
    
    That's just too much for me to hope for. Roller furling just violates
    Occam's razor too much for comfort in a seagoing vessel; it's not
    simple enough, and it's too highly stressed. As for mainsail furling
    systems - same comments doubled.
    
    No, no. I'll keep on going to the bow and wrestling with piston
    hanks (I don't even like luff rod systems all that much; I've had
    a couple of genoas blow out of them). After all, I've spent as much
    time on the damn foredeck with roller furling as I ever did with
    old-fashioned systems...
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    The problem expressed in .7 with the gear on the C&C 36 is a very
    common one.  It is almost always caused by improper location of
    the swivel when a sail is raised.  If the swivel is too low on the
    foil, the angle between the foil and halyard is too small which
    allows a wrap of the halyard (and the jam).  This is usually corrected
    by attaching a wire pendant between the sail and swivel to raise
    it, increasing the angle between foil and halyard.  The HOOD
    installation manual is very specific on this, but since many yards
    dont seem to uses the parts that come with the gear (remember the
    short screw?) it may be too much to expect them to follow instructions.
    
    There is also a possible situation which almost precludes correcting
    a problem like this. If the jib halyard block is very close to the
    point where the headstay attaches, it might be impossible to get
    the necessary angle.
    
    Walt

Well, as should be clear by now, I am not enchanted with the wonders of 
roller furling. However, I must admit to a certain amount of sneaking 
envy of those who have roller furling as I struggle to fold two or three 
headsails in a brisk evening breeze. Not enough envy, mind you, to stop 
folding and start rolling.

We have a 32' foot cutter of more or less modern cruising design -- long 
fin keel and skeg-hung rudder. Actually, a cutter rig is a mixed 
blessing. The disadvantages are:

  The forestay (staysail stay) makes tacking the jib on the 
  headstay a slow process -- we have to wait for the jib to blow around 
  the forestay. As long as we are not racing, this is not a major 
  problem. 

  A cutter's mast is located about midships. This means that the 
  headsails are rather large. Our yankee (working) jib is 315 sq ft, 
  slightly larger than a 125% genoa on a Tartan 33. Our 133% genoa is 
  420 sq ft. Our spinnaker pole is 15 feet long with a diameter of 3.5 
  inches. Needless to say, we don't end-for-end jibe it. 

  Every time we tack or the wind shifts, we have to (re)trim two 
  headsails. This is one of the reasons we have all self-tailing winches. 
  Another reason is sheer sloth.

The advantages are:

  The mast is well-stayed. The intermediate backstays and the forestay 
  keep the mast from pumping, may keep the mast up if either the headstay 
  or backstay fail, and, with the double lower shrouds, make tuning the 
  mast easy. 

  The forestay allows hoisting the storm jib well aft so that balance is 
  better.

  The major advantage lies in the possible sail combinations. Full main,
  staysail, and yankee jib are fine (for cruising) in winds of 5 to 15
  knots or so. Next we single reef the main and, if the wind builds
  further, drop the staysail (176 sq ft). At 25 to 35  knots we second reef
  the main. With more wind we lower the yankee and raise the staysail
  again. With still more wind we third reef the main. Fortunately, we've 
  yet to be in weather requiring further sail reduction. However, our
  sailmaker claims that we should be able to bash to weather in 60 knots
  with storm job and trysail. We've rigged downhauls for the staysail 
  and yankee and the headsail halyards are led aft to the cockpit. This 
  makes it possible for us to raise and lower the yankee and staysail 
  without having to go to the foredeck, at least as long as waves aren't 
  coming aboard. Since are headsails are hanked on, when they are lowered, 
  they are still firmly attached to the boat. One person could get the yankee 
  below if necessary, even in 30 to 40 knots. From the tales I've heard, 
  changing roller furled headsails is extremely difficult once the wind 
  makes a change necessary. We are able to control the shape of whatever 
  headsail(s) we have up regardless of wind speed and don't have to 
  worry about fluttering leeches or too much camber. Admittedly our boat 
  is stiff, but by flattening the yankee, we have gone to weather in 35 
  knots (main double reefed) with the lee rail out of the water. Being 
  able to keep sail up forward reduces weather helm also. For our boat, 
  hanking the staysail on the headstay and the storm jib on the forestay 
  makes an excellent heavy weather combination.

Obviously, with a sloop one must journey to the foredeck for frequent
sail changes, which is not a great pleasure. This certainly makes roller
reefing attractive. Most of the stories I've heard about roller reefing
failure have an element of neglect of regular maintenance in them. The
consequences of failure can be dreadful to contemplate. Certainly, Phil
Weld's, Dodge Morgan's and Phillipe Jeantot's successes are powerful
arguments in favor of roller furling. Jeantot's first (and third) Credit
Agricole was a cutter and if I recall correctly he didn't have roller
furling on the staysail. For coastal sailing with sufficient crew (at
least three or two and good self-steering) roller reefing on a sloop is
probably not a bad idea, especially if there is an inner forestay for a
storm jib. This assumes, of course, good maintenance and proper
installation. 

Our experience has shown that sailing is more comfortable than motoring, 
especially to weather. We have also found that at times rather more sail 
area is better than less. The first time we tried sailing to weather in 
35 knots, we thought a double reefed main and the staysail would be 
about right. It wasn't. The boat pitched badly without making much 
progress. With the yankee there was enough power to go through the 6 
to 8 foot seas at over 6 and a half knots with very little pitching. It 
was actually rather comfortable. 

Our next boat, should we ever have another boat, will be a cutter with 
hanked-on headsails.

Alan

    re .9
    
    Alan, your note about the slight difficulty in getting the genoa
    around the babystay, or whatever you call it in a cutter... to speed
    or tacks a bit when racing, we use bodies to pull the headsail forward
    of the baby stay (and then one to run the clew to the fairlead,
    when you have lots of warm bodies racing you can do those things).
    But a way of using the same principal, which we use when shorthanded
    (defined as any less than eight ;-) ), is to use a small block at the tack
    with a light line attached to the clew, after releasing the "old"
    lee sheet, pull the line (which runs the clew forward of the babystay),
    and then sheet in. It works rather well for us, but we don't have
    the same problem as you with a cutter.
                 

re .10

Steve, thanks for the comments. We've tried both of your suggestions
when we've had extra crew. However, since most of our sailing is single
or doublehanded, waiting for the outer headsail to blow between the
forestay and headstay is the only practical way to tack. With two
headsails to trim, the minimum crew for (non-spinnaker) racing is four.
My feeling is that a cutter rig is excellent for shorthanded cruising.
For racing I'd prefer a sloop. And yes, I have considered making the
forestay removable. I might even get around to it someday. 

    Since Walt reopened this note with a request for opinions and
    questions,lets get it back on track.
    
    Three seperate non-related statements.
    
    1.  I added a Hood Sea Furl LD last year to my boat after Gloria
        destroyed my grooved headfoil.  I had some bad experiences 
        with Cruising Design, and Profurl systems on charter boats,
        with thin lines that tear your hands, drums that take riding 
        turns, and the need to literally winch in a sail.   I read 
        the Practical Sailor evaluations on roller furling systems
        and they liked the LD, but it hadn't been out long enough to
        give their recommendation to.   
                                      
        The system was inexpensive (about $100.00 more than replacing the
        foil, about $900.00 installed), and quite simple.  It fits over
        your existi headstay and is a continuous line system.  There is no
        reel to tangle, just a toothed drum upon which a closed loop operates.
                                      
        You get a nice thick line (ours is run through double sheeved
        blocks and is 1/2" fuzzy braid).  Not much to do to it but
        flush it with water every so often.  The sail furls quickly, and 
        to set it even faster, you can let the loop go slack on the
        drum and it'll spin free.  Its about what I expected and I
        really can't see a $2000.00 Harken system doing anything better.
    
        On the bad side, or unknown side, I've only had the system for
        a short while, so durability is not really known.  The black
        covering has gotten chipped from my anchor and doesn't seem
        as tough as I'd like.  The closed loop puts a hell of a strain
        on an end-to-end splice, and they flatten out eventually (at
        least mine do).                                                 
    
    2.  Norths new "Aeroluff" design for roller reefing was shown to
        me the other day.  Interesting.  The problem with roller reefing
        has always been the baggy middle you got for a sail shape. 
        What they did was only put the bolt rope in the middle of the
        sail and have what look like cloth hanks at the top and bottom.
        When you start to roll up, the middle (with the bolt) catches
        while the top and bottom let the extrusions spin inside of their
        cloth loops.  The result is a headsail which rolls up middle
        first, supposedly giving a flatter sail shape.  It makes sense
        on paper, but I'd like to see it work..  Ill make copies of
        the glossy I got if anyone wants one.
                                                                         
    3.  Some of the newer Hunter's have recessed roller furling drums
        in their bow.  It seemed to make a lot of sense, since the drum
        actually reduces the luff length by about 10" (at least) and
        you could probably get more cloth in.   It also would protect
        it from the drag-the-anchor past the drum attacks that happen
        to those without anchor rollers.  Wonder if it'll catch on?
    
    Rick
    
    
    

    My thanks to Alan for sharing his experiences with cutter rig. That's
    just the rig the boat I'm building (36') will have, all this good
    advice is worth plenty.
    
    Maybe I'd better not get too enthused, or Alan will be computing
    consulting fees. Say a 6pack of Portland Lager??
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    
    I will second walts comments on the Hood Seafurl installation
    requirements, for the need to pay attention to detail in the
    instructions.
    
    I have the Hood 3250 on my 36 ft. catamaran. It was originally
    installed by Mr. Fouler in the sail loft at Handy Boat Falmouth,ME.
    He relocated the halyard block to a cheek block on the mast.
    He also add a pendant. The whole thing worked well for me with
    one exception.
    
    A year later I the top extrustion seperate and rotate. This locked
    the sail in the luff grove until it was slipped back together.
    As it turns out, the Delron inserts that space the spline couplers
    between sections, were too short, by about 2" each. The accumulated
    shift allowed the top section to slip off the coupler and separate.
    
    Other than that I can't see living without it.
    
    The Genoa is 175% - 500 sq. ft. the working jib is 100%
    

    
    re: .6  (Walt Clark)
    
    	"... closer to the wind ... it is best rolled up"
    
        why is that?  I'd think you'd want the center of effort as far
    back as you can get it with a 125% genoa in order to help point
    higher.
    
        i have a question about setting a roller furling headsail for
    downwind sailing, especially when you're singlehanded.  i have the
    Hood Sea Furl with a 130% headsail, and i'm having trouble getting
    good downwind performance.
    
        since i'm usually single-handing or worse (fretting non-sailors
    aboard), i'd rarely go forward to adjust halyard tension to adjust
    the draft in the headsail, and i don't think it has much effect
    anyway, the way the luff tape holds it to the forestay.  i normally
    set it tight and leave it there.  poling out the headsail helps
    if i'm sailing down about as far as 150 degrees off the wind, but
    below that performance drops very significantly.
    
        since i don't race i'm usually content to just sail on a reach,
    but i'm located between Newport and Block Island which means that
    i usually want to sail directly upwind or directly downwind, and
    sailing 'flyers' just to get downwind is irritating, especially
    if it's because i'm just not setting my sails properly.
    
        any advice on setting roller furling headsails downwind?
    
        - Jim  (Irish Mist)
    

    When I said it was best rolled up, I meant as compared to reefed
    to say 90%.  The draft moves forward as the sail is furled and this
    results in a bag at the luff which is not good upwind. Up to about
    60 degrees apparent the shape is OK but closer than that to the
    wind and the leading edge backwinds and stalls.
    
    In high winds (past where I can sail with reefed main and full
    genoa) I just sail upwind under main alone. I lose some pointing
    ability, but the boat balances OK under main alone.
     
    I have also sailed upwind under full genoa alone. Although I think
    I point lower than under main alone, sometimes it is more convienent
    for a short trip.  Also I dont get much weather helm when the wind
    is up as with the full main alone. As a matter of fact it is easy
    to trim the genoa for weather-neutral-lee helm as desired in about
    any wind. Depending on the desired point of sail and the increase 
    in wind, my next move downward from reefed main/full genoa might be 
    genoa alone. 
    
    Off the wind I sometimes ease halyard tension on the jib, but with
    a fractional sail the big drive is from the main. If I plan to sail
    more than a few minutes off wind, I ease the halyard tension on
    both main and jib.  On my boat a pole isnt really needed for the
    125% genoa. If I am far enough off the wind for the main to blanket the
    jib, I go wing and wing, setting the jib fairlead block out to the 
    rail.  I also try to stay at least 20 degrees away from dead down-
    wind.

    Walt

    
    re .-1  (baggy entry when furled beyond 90%)
    
    I called Hood last month after the Practical Sailor article appeared,
    and they said that they have some kind of a backing which they can
    sew to your genoa which greatly improves sail shape when partially
    furled.
    
    It is made of some kind of foam material, and is sewn to the middle
    of the sail so that it causes the center (baggy) part of the genoa
    to have a fair shape when partially furled.  Depending on how heavy
    it is, it may cause the sail to collapse in light air (conjecture),
    but it sounds like a good idea.
    
    Does anyone have any experience with this?  Know anyone who does?
    
    re .-1 (downwind sailing)
    
    I'll try slackening the halyard & see if that helps, thanks.
    
       Jim (Irish Mist)
    

    I have recently purchased a used boat that came with Schaeffer roller
    furling on it.   This is an old (rugged) system but it has a few
    problems which I could use some suggestions on.
    
    First the upper swivel....  The block above the swivel was taking
    a  twist, once loaded, that pulled the sail towards the headstay
    causing the sail to wrap the stay and jam.  I fixed this by rotating
    the block ninety degrees but I suspect this block once had a swivel.
    Anybody know if this is true?
    
    Secondly, the drum......  Underneath the drum is a bracket that
    on one end is mounted to the shaft while the other end extends out
    to hold a fairlead for the furling line.  This bracket/fairlead
    causes the line to lead from the drum roughly at its top edge.
    This makes the furling line alternately cone/collapse (as sail is
    released) and ultimately jam with a riding turn (as sail is furled).
    The angle seems wrong but I don't know what the correct angle should
    be.  Should the fairlead be centered?

    Lastly......  What is the correct line to use for the drum; three
    strand, braid, dacron, poly etc......????  I'm assuming here that
    the type of line has a lot to do with carefree operation.

The Schaefer headsail furling system is an old, not very satisfactory 
design. There is, as you note, a swivel bearing at the top of the jib. 
The Schaefer design depends solely on luff tension to keep the luff of
the jib from falling to leeward when sailing. To maximize the luff
tension, the halyard deadends at the masthead, goes down to a block just
above the swivel bearing, goes back to the masthead halyard sheave, and
finally down to the deck. This arrangement (approximately) doubles the luff
tension. There is a little wire keeper at the swivel bearing to prevent 
the block from rotating. 

It rather sounds like your swivel bearing has more or less failed, which 
would result in the block rotating. Depending on the model you have, 
replacement swivel bearings are $46 to $323 (list price). 

I'd suggest calling Schaefer (1-800-528-2266 outside MA, 617 or 
508-995-9511 in MA). You might ask the boat fairy (who listens about as 
well as the tooth fairy) for a new furling system. If you're really 
lucky, you might get a handful of sail hanks.

    re:.19
    
    I don't think I was clear enough.....  The assembly at the head
    of the sail is a wire bail arrangement that sort of hangs from the
    headstay.  At its bottom end is a swivel and this swivel is fine.
    The top end is attached to a block as you describe and this is where
    I am questioning the need of a swivel.  
    
    Without a swivel here you have to make sure that the plane of this
    block is the same plane that exists at the masthead.  If not you
    get a lot of torque that tries to place them in the same plane
    anyway.  This torque is what can cause a jam.   For now I have simply
    rotated this block but it is still rigidly attached to the head
    assembly.  Is this adequate?  It works on my mooring but then, most
    things do.
    
    My main 'pro' for this gear is to provide painless tacking as I
    have a jibstay about a foot aft of the genoa mount.  I have
    reservations about tensioning as you note but convenience wins...

The purpose of the swivel you have is to allow the jib to roll around 
its luff without any twisting of the halyard block -- thus the block 
shouldn't need its own swivel. Your roller furling swivel may well 
rotate freely when not under load but not rotate freely when the halyard 
is tensioned. After all, the load on the swivel is likely to be a couple 
of thousand pounds. It takes very little degradation of the bearings 
before there will be excessive friction under heavy load.

Under the heading of the same only different -- the sealed bearings in
our windspeed transducer have a life of about a year. The bearings feel 
fine when rotated by hand, but there is enough internal corrosion that 
the anemometer cups won't spin in a breeze under 5 knots or so. Bearing 
replacement is an annual event now.

    I'd like to reopen this note and ask for some advice/opinions now of
    current roller furling equipment. I have an Alden 36 that displaces
    24,000 lbs, cutter rig with a J of 19 feet and an I of 46.5 feet.
    I have a yankee jib right now and am seriously thinking of going to a
    roller furling unit for convenience and the ability to carry a larger
    headsail without fear that my wife and I could not douse it in a
    serious blow. I am currently looking at a 122%-125% sail. That gives me
    a 23-24ft length on the jib.
    
    The kind folks at North Sails are suggesting a 7 oz sailcloth (their
    4800 variety) in a cross cut sail and Aeroluff tape to put on a Harken
    Unit 2 Model C roller furling unit.
    
    Does anyone have any experience with this particular Harken unit? Those
    of you who have roller furling gear of any brand, Would you buy your
    unit over again?
    
    The "Boatshow" prices for the sail are $1854 for the base sail,
    Aeroluff, UV stripe, Furling patches and Spreader patches add another
    $600 for a price of $2454.00. The Harken unit is "Boatshow" priced at
    $1934.00. Are these reasonable? Anyone have experience with North Sales
    over say, C&C? I have Lee sails on the boat now.
    
    A friend of mine is recommending I go with a roller furling unit that
    takes Hank on sails. He's shown it to me and in theory, it looks good.
    He is going to find a couple of boats to show me with it on them
    because I have a concern about how it would roll up. Since I'm talking
    about a whole lot of money from my meager cruising kitty, I really
    don't want to make this expensive of a mistake. ALL INPUT WELCOME!
    
    Thanks!
    Robert

    
    	I like both Harken and North products. But you WILL pay for those
    	names.
    	Practical Sailor usually rates the Harken units high. I have the
    	Model 1 on my 32 footer (I=42, J=12) and have no complaints. It
    	gets excercized not only with the sail, but I race without furling
    	sails, so a 5 minute conversion happens (more like 15 if I pull the
    	drum) every time I switch her from `cruise' to `race'.
    	Anyway, with just my wife and I aboard, it's a lot nicer to roll
    	the jib from the cockpit, especially this (windy) time of the
    	season. 
    	On the subject of roller REEFING (compared to only furling) I'm
    	still not convinced that a 160 can be rolled down to a 130 and
    	still point. If I was, I'd put in an order. Better to have 2 sails
    	available, I think.
    	North is the biggest loft in the country, I think. They're pretty
    	conservative in cloth and cuts. The times I've gotten quotes at 
    	shows, they've been in competition with Doyle for highest quotes.
    	But I pay the extra cuz I've been happy with the product and the 
    	service. Consider what will have to happen if you need repairs and
    	recutting- is there a local loft?
    	Also as far as prices, the whole sailing industry (except for the
    	post-Bob repair segment) is pretty depressed, and many lofts were
    	willing to negotiate more than in years past. Get quotes from many
    	lofts, see what you get from who.
    
    	I think you'll like having the roller. Also, if your old sails are
    	still usable, sewing luff tape on is not a huge investment...
    
    	Scott 

    I have a "pro-furl" unit called the "Reefer" on my boat, it is an older 
    unit that has a plastic drum, internal halyard with cunningham.
    
    The plastic drum has 2 problems, the drum itself is not really robust
    enough to withstand the strain/wear and tear etc. and the bearing
    mechanism is not the best .... a plastic bushing arrangment that has a
    fair amount of friction.
    
    I had thought to re-build the drum myself out of aluminum over the
    winter but I thought I would ask to see if any one out there knows
    this unit and has any thoughts (by the way the manufacturer has the
    same plastic drums - he did not change to aluminium or Stainless.)
    Graham

re .22:

Based on the equipment reports from the last BOC, I'd get a ProFurl. It 
seemed to be more reliable and rugged. If you're planning extended 
sailing far from repair facilities (eg, a circumnavigation), 
reliability is, in my view, more important than low(er) cost, but then I 
am not fond of fixing problems. With a cutter, I'd also not worry too 
much about roller reefing. I'd get a 120% to 130% genoa for light winds 
and change to a yankee when it looks like to blow. Our cutter sails 
nicely with various combinations of (full and reefed) main, yankee, and
staysail in winds from 10 to at least 50 knots. We normally don't even
have our 133% genoa aboard when cruising. 

    Re: -.1
    
    I agree.  Every review of the BOC race gear raved about the Harken
    roller furling gear.  No better test of gear under load for long
    periods of time.
    
    I'd NEVER go to a furling main.  We actually had this discussion on the
    boat recently.  What if the furling gear fails during a squall or
    storm?  How do you get your main down?  Also, the stowaway style masts
    wistle something awful!  A reefed main takes tremendous loads.  For a
    main I'd go with a traditional style, no battens (saves wear and tear
    with a small decrease in performance) with heavy track and slides.
    
    I believe there is work to be done yet on furling/reefing mains.
    
    If I was planning to go offshore, I'd make sure my budget had enough
    for the very best of sail handling gear even if it meant sacrificing a
    little on the size of the boat I could afford.  Getting this stuff
    fixed is never easy and always expensive.  
    
    Dave  

    I appreciate the input. Looks like the Harken units get good reviews!
    The 7oz cloth that North has is touted to be the same strength as the
    "old" 8-10 oz cloth. Any ideas on this?

re .-1:

Strength when new is not (should not) be the sole factor here. UV will
cause an eventual reduction in the strength of the cloth. Thicker cloth
will be less affected than thinner cloth as the UV is (I think) mostly
absorbed near the surface of the material. (I once made a flag for our
mooring pickup whip from 1.5 oz spinnanker nylon. In four months it had
no strength left and could be easily torn.) If the sails are overly
strong when new, they'll have a better chance of being strong enough
after N years and NN miles of sailing.