Conference turris::cooks

	If the cutting edge trails, then the fine edge you have created tends
to get relativly long, fine, and weak.  This is called a "wire edge".  It will
give you razor sharpness until you try to cut something with it at which time
it rolls over (no strength) and your knife is now incredibly dull.  If you let
the sharp edge lead, then the "wire edge" is sheared off giving you a short,
fine, strong edge which will last much longer.

				Al

    I have recently gotten married, and am not sure on the proper way
    of holding the knife or sharpener.  Or of what you mean by cutting
    edge trailing?  I'm sure I'm doing it wrong!
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Corine

    Assuming you are right handed, hold the steel (long round things
    with a protected handle you'd expect to find on a sword - to keep
    the blade from hitting your left hand) in your left hand, and the
    knife, with the edge facing your body, in the right hand.  Draw the
    knife blade from the tip of the steel towards your left hand, keeping
    the blade at about a 15 degree angle with the steel.  Give it about
    three strokes on each side of the blade.  If you hold the blade
    so that the edge is facing away from you, you are whetting the knife
    with the edge trailing, and will get a weak edge.  What the steel
    basically does is straighten out the thin edge of the blade if it
    has gotten curled over from use; it doesn't remove enough metal
    to sharpen a really dull knife (you wouldn't want it to, or you'd
    have to buy new knives often).
       
    I think you can do the same thing if you have a ceramic knife-sharpener
    blade instead of a steel.  Steels are for keeping knives sharp;
    they won't help much if the blade needs to be sharpened because
    it is new, very dull, or damaged.  The ceramic things (which I don't
    have one of) can actually sharpen a dull knife.  I sometimes use
    a whetstone (block of hard ceramic stuff; you either wet it or put
    mineral oil on it, and then sharpen the knife blade like you would
    sharpen a hatchet blade), but it is usually just easier to get really
    dull or damaged knives professionally sharpened.  You pretty much
    have to do that if you have managed to nick the blade badly somehow.
    
    Trying to sharpen a serrated-edge knife seems to be hopeless.  I
    don't use that kind of knife very often anyhow (cutting citrus fruits
    and cutting bread), and am still using 15-year-old knives with no
    problem.  I don't know what you do if you dull one, but you can't
    do anything for it with a steel, or a whetstone.  (I guess you could
    sharpen it with a file, but it wouldn't be a fun job.)

  Re .-1, good short course. I usually "push" the knife away from my
  left hand, to minimize the chances of slicing the knuckle of my left
  thumb. The important points are:

  - keep the blade at a steady angle against the steel, and
  - move the knife so that the sharp edge moves forward.


                        .
                        |\
                        | \
                        | |  <- knife
               |        | |
           oooo|========| |===========   <- steel
               |        | |
                        | |
                        | |     ---->
                        +-'   direction
                        II    of stroke (starts at handle of
                        II     knife and finishes at tip)
                        II

    re .4 - Have you considered illustrating notes files for a living??
    Great drawing!!
    
    I think that you are tradtionally supposed to sharpen the knife
    towards you so that you can see the edge while you are doing the
    job, but I don't see why you can't do it the other way if you are
    worried about cutting yourself.

>    Have you considered illustrating notes files for a living??

  You mean they don't pay me for this? :-)
    
>    I think that you are tradtionally supposed to sharpen the knife
>    towards you so that you can see the edge while you are doing the
>    job, 

  Also, if you've tried it my way, you know that your way is much easier
  on the wrist, since it's a more natural position.

    While we're on the subject, it has been my observation that the crossed
ceramic sticks type sharpener/hone is almost foolproof.  The material does a
great job and the angles of the ceramic sticks are such that you always get a
good cutting edge.  You hold the knife being sharpened so the cutting edge is
parallel to the floor (it's tough to describe 3 dimensional positions with 2
dimensional words;^) You keep the flat of the blade perpendicular to the base
of the sharpener and move the knife so the heel of the knife starts at the top
of one of the ceramic sticks and finishes with the tip at the bottom of that
ceramic stick. You now start again, but use the other stick; thereby working on
the other side of the cutting edge.  The only drawback I see to these
technilogical wonders is the space they take up when not in use. 

    Also does anyone else have comments on the crossed-tip tungsten sharpeners
similar to what the Wiltshire knives use? (you know the one which sharpens
itself each time you take the knife out of its holder).  I think this type does
a good job, but it takes off too much metal each time it's used, thereby
reducing the life expectency of the blade.  Also the edge appears somewhat
irregular after use (like serrated edges almost) making the use of a honing
steel ineffective.

			Al
				it_aint_sharp_enough_til_I_can_shave_with_it

    
    
     For Christmas last year I recieved a very good knife sharpener
    called "The Chief's Choice". This sharpener has three stations each
    with it's own diamond grinding wheel and the sides of the sharpining
    wells have magnetic plates that grab your knife and keep it at the
    proper angle while it is being drawn through the wells.. When used
    according to the directions it has set and kept a razor edge on any
    knife I have thrown at it. After I recieved it I did see it in the
    dept stores selling from $65-$79. It seems like a lot but to tell 
    you the truth after having used it for a while now it would have been
    worth the bucks if I had bought it myself.
    
    
    					Joe
    

    Re: .8
    
    We have a set of the self sharpening (I think they are Wilkensen)
    hanging in the kitchen 'cause I could never keep a knife sharp
    all of the time. These things are great! Had them for about 5 years
    and never had a problem with them. They are always very, very sharp.
    
    

When using a sharpening steel, a good trick my dad taught me is to hold the 
steel like a dagger and put the end of it on your cutting board.  Angle it at 
about 15 degrees from the vertical, and hold it there.  Hold your knife with 
the blade on the vertical and draw it down the steel.  Then tilt the steel the 
other way and do the other side of the blade (might be easier to switch 
hands).  This has the advantages of reducing the possibilities of getting cut 
and making sure you have the right angle (it's easier to approximate 15 
degrees this way than it is to do it the traditional way, where the angle is 
hidden under the blade).  This technique is great for beginners!  And it works 
pretty well for experts, too.  Probably the biggest mistake you can make is to 
make the angle too great.  Most people use about a 45 degree angle, which 
gives you a nice 90 degree angle on the finished blade.

If you just can't get the blade sharp, have the knife professionally 
sharpened.  The guy at the Cook's Nook in Lunenburg will do this for you, and 
give you a free demo on how to use your steel.  He'll even tell you what you 
have been doing wrong by looking at the condition of your blade.

						     
							- JP

    My knives are not very old, about 5 years, and they won't even cut a
    piece of paper at this point....  So, does anyone know of a place in
    southern NH that offers knife sharpening?  I know that the meat
    department in Shaws will do this for free (the one in Merrimack used to
    anyway) but I'm wondering if this is doing the knives more harm than
    good.
    
    Does someone have a place that they would recommend please?  Do they
    charge by the inch or per knife?  		Thanks, Cheryl

  The Nashua Yellow Pages lists three places under "Sharpening Service".
  One of them is the Cutlery World at the Pheasant Lane Mall. I don't
  have any experience with any of these places, but the one at the Mall
  is probably the last one I'd try, since I don't really expect that
  sharpening knives is their main business -- retail sales is. The
  others are MTC Grinding and Sta-Sharp Saw Service. Both of these
  places obviously do only sharpening, but it's hard to know how much of
  their expertise is in the area of kitchen knives as opposed to chain
  saw blades. If you feel adventurous, you could try calling a good
  restaurant like Levi Lowell's in Merrimack and ask if they'd be
  willing to tell you where they get their knives done.

  Now some thoughts on professional sharpening: it's a good idea to have
  this done as little as possible, since it takes more metal off the
  knife (and shortens its life) more than just about anything else you
  can do to the knife short of using it as a chisel. Since it obviously
  has to be done occasionally, you want to try to keep the knives as
  sharp as possible to delay the need as long as possible. Here are some
  rules I go by to help keep my knives sharp. In the entire time I've
  owned them (about 12 years), I've only had them professionally
  sharpened once, and only had to take a stone to them two or three
  other times.

  1. NEVER EVER let the blade touch ANYTHING except food or a cutting
     board (which should be either plastic or wood). Any time the blade
     comes in contact with anything harder than that, it will shorten the
     time to the next serious sharpening. This includes other utensils,
     whether in a drawer, dishwasher, or on your counter, and certainly
     includes pots and pans and ESPECIALLY ceramic and glass dishes.

  2. Use a steel to hone the edge with EACH use. I use a steel
     before and after each use, but you can probably get away with just
     steeling the blade once per use. Don't get lazy and do it less than
     that, though. The steel doesn't remove much metal from the blade the
     way a stone does. Its main job is to "line up" the cutting edge to
     restore its cutting ability. If you use a steel often and properly,
     you may actually be able to avoid ever having to have your knives
     professionally sharpened.

  Many people may feel that it's not worth the bother to take this kind
  of care of knives. After all, even if they're moderately expensive,
  you can still get several good years out of them even with
  professional sharpening. I don't argue with that logic at all. For me,
  the main reason for such care is so that I always have a sharp knife
  to work with. Otherwise, a knife will become significantly dull in
  just a few weeks. Then it remains a next-to-useless tool for the next
  several months until you get around to having it sharpened again.

If you want a referral for a good sharpening service, ask a meat cutter.  If 
you have a butcher shop nearby, ask them.  Otherwise ask to talk to a 
meatcutter (or the meat dept. manager) at your favorite grocers.

						     
							- JP

re .12

<    ... I'm wondering if this is doing the knives more harm than
    good.
    
   Knives should be GROUND (i.e. have the edge reshaped) infrequently.  They
should be SHARPENED (remove small nicks etc) as needed. They should be HONED
(with a steel) at least every time you use the knife, and more often if you
are dealing with bones or a cutting board.

   Grinding is destructive in that it removes a significant amount of metal.
Sharpening is less destructive than grinding, but it too removes some metal.
Honing (for the most part) only aligns the cutting edge for maximum efficiency.

  If your knives have been 5 years without grinding then they are probably due.
As was previously mentioned I'd ask my local butcher(s) or chefs for 
recommendations.

Good luck,

Al

    Find a Knife store and purchase a "Tri-Angle" sharpening  system.
    
    You can't go wrong.  I have had mine for 6 years and I can put a razor
    edge on any knife in minutes.  The cost is around $40 but well worth
    the expense.
    
    Steve

Can anyone recommend a place in the greater Maynard area to have a knife
reground and sharpened?  My Henckels are starting to get a little worn.

j.

    Robinson's Hardware, in Hudson, will do it, but they seem to take off
    quite a bit of metal in the process - good if the knife is dented or
    really dull, but a waste otherwise.  I used to take mine to Duck Soup,
    in Sudbury on route 20 in one of those little strip malls, though I
    haven't been over there lately - they did a nicer job.
    
    If you are real patient you can do them yourself on a stone, but you
    are going to have trouble doing as good a job as a pro.  I only bother
    oiling my stone and going after a knife edge if I have nicked one of my
    favorite blades and need it sharp in a hurry.
    
    /Charlotte

Sounds like a good excuse to go to Duck Soup!  

BTW, if I were really patient, I wouldn't be asking ;-).  The knives aren't too
bad, but I'm too lazy to do them right so once every other year or so I like to
get a professional to sharpen them for me.

j.

  After only one time, I stopped taking my knives out for sharpening.
  The shop did a good job, but took off too much metal for my taste. So
  I bought some good stones and practised until I could do it right. It
  didn't take very long.

  With reasonable care and regular honing with a steel, I haven't needed
  to use the stones in over three years (the knives still don't need it,
  and they're razor sharp).

    re .20
    
    I agree with you. Mike!  It's easy to learn how to sharpen kinves
    yourself.  And, as you say, I find I rarely have to;  I always have a 
    steel handy, and I use it every time I use a knife, sometimes even in 
    between cuts, and my knives stay razor sharp.
    
    -ellie

    The Shaw's supermarket in Nashua will sharpen your knives for free at
    the meat department.  I took mine in last week and they are as good as
    new.
    								-Dave-

I've been told that the Shaw's in Hudson will do this, too.

    Good note, I've been telling Hon we need some decent knives. My
    questions is on sharpeners. Are any of those electric thingies
    worth the money. I do use a steel on the few good knives we have.
    
    Also is there any special techinque in using the steel. Sometimes I'm
    pleased with the results other times frustrated.
    
    Thanks-great file BTW

    
    Gee--this is one of those things that is flat easy to demonstrate,
    but a little tough to describe. I'll try:
    
    Let's assume you're right-handed for this lesson. Hold the steel in
    your left hand, with your left thumb "up" and pressed lightly against
    the guard (for support, & to keep it out of harms way if you are
    careless/unexperienced with the next step)
    
    Hold the steel such that the tip is pointed generally toward your
    right shoulder, and the tip is about 12" from your face. 
    
    With the knife-to-be-steeled in your right hand, and the blade pointed
    down, position the base end (end closest to your hand) about 2" from
    the tip--BARELY TOUCHING. Twist your right hand such that the blade
    is actually meeting the steel at about 10-30 DEGREES of angle.
    
    (In simpler terms--you do not want a significant angle where the
    cutting edge touches the steel, since you will negate the effect
    of both the initial sharpening (i.e. with a stone of other device)
    and the removal of the rolled edge/bead you are actually trying to 
    remove by using the steel).
    
    With the absolute minimum friction you can manage (which I highly
    recommend if you are actually using these instructions to steel a
    blade for the first time), gently allow the blade to slide down the
    length of the steel WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY DRAWING THE BASE OF THE
    BLADE AWAY FROM THE STEEL, TOWARD YOUR LOWER RIGHT LEG. (I realize 
    this sounds silly, but it is the easy way to describe the maneuver).
    While doing this, keep your left hand firmly gripping the handle of
    the steel and do not allow the steel to move.
     
    From this point, it gets a little tricky. In general, you want to
    stroke both sides of the cutting edge equally. Do this by moving
    the base of the knife edge back toward the top of the steel but
    positioning the contact ON THE OTHER SIDE of the steel--this simply
    puts the "other side" of the cutting edge against the steel grooves.
    Allow the knife to slide down while you once again draw the handle
    toward your right leg. Keep the angle of edge-to-steel about the
    same.
    
    Important points: Stop the movement of your right hand in drawing
    the cutting edge against the steel at least 2" above the tip of
    your left thumb. Serves two purposes: 1) You get to keep your thumb
    intact and 2) you do not want your cutting edge to contact the
    protection bar close to that thumb. 
    
    And probably the most important point (besides practice makes perfect)
    is to remember that the purpose of the steel is NOT to sharpen the
    knife, but to take a rolled (or ragged) edge off the blade which is
    simply a by-product of the sharpening process (using a stone,etc).
    Removing this rolled/ragged edge will keep your knife sharper,
    longer. (There are other cause/effects involved, but it is pretty
    technical in nature). The bottom line: Practice using the steel;
    Sharpen your knife and THEN use a steel; Wipe a blade carefully before
    using the steel (if you have been cutting food); protect the steel
    from getting banged-up in a drawer (it is a quality forged tool)
    and practice some more. Keep a "loose wrist" on the hand holding
    the knife when downstroking, etc.
    
    I recommend you contact the cutting edge with the steel only on the
    downstroke--do not drag the edge against the steel when moving the
    base of the knife back up toward the top of the steel for the next
    downstroke. 
    
    Others may have strong feelings about this particular rule.
    
    Good luck.
    
    

An easier technique for beginners is to hold the steel point down on a cutting 
board at the desired angle (about 15 degrees).  Then hold the knife and "slice"
down and towards you.  Then angle the steel the other way, and do the other side
of the blade.  It's a lot easier to judge the angle than when you are looking 
at it in the traditional manner, and it gives you a safer feeling than drawing
the knife towards your fingers.

As an aside, I decided to spring for the Henckels sharpener.  It's a ceramic 
disk affair that has a grip off to one side that you must hold in the left hand.
Then you draw the knife thru the slot with your right hand.  I can feel the 
knife get sharper.  I never had knives so sharp with so little effort.  It was
well worth the 20 bucks (ouch...on sale even!).

				-JP

A good knife should NEVER be but into a dishwasher because during the wash cycle
the knives will bang against anything in the utensile basket and destroyu the
edge,  Good knives should always be washed and dried by hand, then run over
with a sharpening steel before storage.

Bob

<...  Good knives should always be washed and dried by hand, then run over
<with a sharpening steel before storage.

Bob,
    Just out of curiosity, why before storage instead of before use?

    I habitually hone a knife just before and, for longer jobs, during use.  Is 
there a particular advantage to doing it before storage?


Al

Thanks, you've all beaten me into getting off my duff and sharpening my own
knives.  What I need to do is bring them backpacking with me.  I keep my
outdoors knives sharp because there's nothing much else to do than lie in a
hammock and sharpen ;-).

�A good knife should NEVER be but into a dishwasher because during the wash cycle
�the knives will bang against anything in the utensile basket and destroyu the
�edge

I hate it when my knives destroy the edge of my utensil basket :-).

j.

    Our butcher block knife rack is filled with an interesting collection
    of dull knives.  I want to buy a simple sharpener.  Lechmere has a
    couple on sale at the moment:

	Wusthof Trident sharpener with 1" ceramic (?) disks mounted in a
	wooden handle.  (The Henckels sharpener described in .29 sounds
	like a similar sharpener.)  $19.95 (including two Wustholf Dreizack
	paring knives).

        Chicago Cutlery "Always Sharp Sharpening Tool" -- two black,
        crossed rods mounted in a 7" square-ish black plastic handle.
	The package claims "Successfully used in the commercial poultry
	processing industry for years -- NOW AVAILABLE TO YOU."  $19.95

    Is either of these a good sharpener?  Is there something else under $40
    that I should get instead?

    -- Ward

The 2 units you describe are basically the same concept.  They provide the
ceramic/steel sharpeners at a specific angle.  You drag the knife across them
and sharpen it.  They make it easy to quickly get a very sharp knife.  The discs
get the knife slightly sharper because they provide a slight hollow grind.  due
to the finer edge, the knives will also loose the edge faster.  I use the disc
variety that I talked about, but stayed away from the wood handled model, in
case I wanted to run it under water for a quick cleaning.  

You will probably be very happy with either model, at least happier than you are
with dull knives.  Make your decision based on the real estate the unit will
occupy on your counter/in the drawer, if that comodity is as valuable as it is
in my kitchen.  

PS I have a professional steel for sharpening.  I have not used it since I got
the Henckels sharpener.

>        Chicago Cutlery "Always Sharp Sharpening Tool" -- two black,
>        crossed rods mounted in a 7" square-ish black plastic handle.
>	The package claims "Successfully used in the commercial poultry
>	processing industry for years -- NOW AVAILABLE TO YOU."  $19.95

This sounds like a gadget I have had for a number of years now.

Mine has 4 of these ceramic pencil sized rods that you can put in
in pairs to a wooden base which has a plastic guard over where you
hold it to the counter with your hand.  You stroke the blade down and
across these V oriented rods and it hones the blade at the correct
angle with no skills required.

I only have had to use the touch up rods rather than the full strength
coarse and fine ones since I have not abused my good knives.  But
it works amazingly well and I now prefer it to the steel.

I got this at an upscale mall like Chestnut Hill or something.

- Jim