Conference turris::cooks

    Arnold
    one way that I know of how to find out about the taste of the herbs
    is to mix some up with cream cheese let sit for while to give the
    flavor of the herbs a chance to flavor the cream cheese then spread
    on crackers this will give an oppurtunity to find out what each
    herb tastes like some will be mild and others stronger
    most any herb book should give you recipes to follow so that
    your meals do not taste the same
    
    you can find out more about herbs thru the herb society thats located
    in concord center they have a wonderful library dedicatedtowards
    the subject and across the street the herb patch can also give you
    more information between the two places they could answer any 
    questions about herbs and spices that you might have
    
                     ED C.

Another quick test for herb and spice flavor (less fattening than cream
cheese) is to boil and mash a potato.  While the potato is warm, add the
spice or herb(s) and let this sit until cool.  You can easily judge
whether the herb is interesting that way.  In my adventures in the
kitchen, I've found a few interesting ideas:

Add dill weed to boiled, buttered new potatoes, or use in a tuna or
other fish casserole.  This herb is especially good with salmon, try
it in a sauce for poached salmon like hollendaise.  Honest!

Tarregon is wonderful stirred into softened butter, chilled overnight,
and then used on croissants for brunch.  Serve with thin sliced
ham.  Also wonderful used to cook scrambled eggs.

     	Good luck with the experiments!!

	There is a little place in Mason, NH called Pickity Place.  It 
	is an herb farm that sells dried and potted herbs, as well as 
	craftsy type things.  They also serve a luncheon that has lots 
	of deliciously herbed foods.  The building that houses the 
	restaurant was used to illustrate the original Little Red Riding
	Hood book.  But enough history.  I can get you their mailing 
	address.  They publish their own cookbook with recipes from the 
	restaurant (I believe they have 2 books out now).  They also
	mailorder herbs, seeds, etc.  For those of you in the area, the
	place is a great Sunday afternoon drive (12-5)...just make sure 
	your car wears its snow tires.  If they are selling some bread in 
	the crafts store, buy it.  Then on your way back to Mass, follow
	the signs (tiny faded ones) to Parker's Barn and pick up some
	really excellent maple syrup.  Between the 2 places is a vista
	that affords a spectacular view...all the way to Boston.  In 
	addition, you go by Uncle Sam's birthplace.

	As for tasting herbs... If you have fresh herbs, try tasting it
	as is.  If they are dried, add a few drops of warm water to a 
	pinch and sample it that way.  For spices, whole seeds are always
	best.  To sampe them, grind a bit in a mortar or one fo those
	Braun Coffee grinders (about $17...if you use lots of whole spices,
	its worth reserving one for the grinding job), and then add a bit of 
	warm water and taste.

	As far as an herb garden goes, I've been developing one over the 
	past 2 years.  The staples are (in deference to S & G): parsley,
	sage, rosemary and thyme, also oregano, dill, tarragon, chives (
	both the regular and the "garlic chives"), basil and then some 
	experiments.  So far, all but the rosemary, dill and basil survive 
	the winter.  The parsley grows great the first year, and goes to seed
	the second year, starting the whole cycle over again.  The dill will
	also go to seed, which you can use for cooking or another generation.
	I try to pot up cuttings in the late summer so I have fresh herbs on 
	the windowsill in my kitchen.  In late fall, I cut back the plants 
	and hang the cuttings to dry upstairs.
   

    Thanks for the encouragement - I like the potato suggestion - not
    that I need another reason to eat new potatoes.
    
    The place in NH sounds interesting, but more than a Sunday drive
    from Ohio!  The Gardening file referred to an herb farm in Athens,
    Ohio, that I plan to check out when the snow melts!
    
    Another question: I have read variously that herbs are added towards
    the end of the cooking time, so their flavor is not cooked out,
    and also to add them at the beginning so their flavor can mellow/blend
    in.  Are theres some general guidelines, eg., seeds and dried at
    teh beginning, leaves and fresh at the end?

Good question....I have generally found it is okay to add most things
before the final simmer to let the taste cook in...however, I tend to
like what happens when I add fresh parsley towards the end of cooking.
I think fresh herbs work better and I use them whenever I can, however,
I have had very good luck using dried dill WEED...not the seed.

More suggestions to perk up food:

Add fresh cilentro (sometimes called 'italian parsley' I think) to
squashed avocado, chopped drained and seeded tomatoes, and chopped
spanish onions for a mild guacamole.  Always add fresh cilentro to salsa.
I like it's flavor in fresh tomato sauce as well.

Make a potato salad of new potatoes peeled and soaked with garlic wine
vinegar while still hot and then cooled, chopped spanish onion,
lots of fresh chopped chive, sliced radish, and chopped sweet
red pepper.  Dress with homemade mayonaise and watch it
disappear.  I sometimes add hard boiled egg to this if it won't
be sitting without refrigeration for any length of time.  You might
also experiment with parsley on this idea.

    Italian (flat-leaf) parsley is not the same stuff as cilantro, though
    the leaves are similar-looking.  Cilantro might be masquerading
    as coriander (I usually reserve that name for the seeds) or "Mexican
    parsley" or "Chinese parsley".  It has a very fragrant aroma that
    doesn't smell anything like parsley.

    In addition to Pickety Place (I heard it closed??) there is a far
    in Coventry, CT where they have a marvelous luncheon on Saturdays,
    tea on Sundays and I believe luncheons during the week as well.
    The owner whose name escapes me right now (Mrs. Simmons!!) is known 
    world-wide and travels frequently to other countries to 
    study native herbs and then comes back and writes yet 
    another cookbook.  (Funny how her cookbooks are written...
    she just rambles on and every once in a while will mention an 
    ingredient that you have no idea what to do with or how much...
    I guess she doesn't proofread her recipes!)
    
    Anyway, she also gives demonstrations on herbs, has a wonderful
    gift shop, a book shop filled to the brim with her books (some 40-50
    I think) and other people's books as well, along with gardening
    books and herb books.  Her herb gardens cover 10 acres and each
    has a theme.  I especially like her saints garden right by the
    bookstore.
    
    When you arrive at the farm, you are greeted and given a cup of
    maywine, or hot spiced cider or whatever, depending on the season.
    The tables which are all over the first floor of the 100+ year old
    house are decorated with dried arrangements and dried plants hang
    from the beams in the ceiling.  All the pictures in the house deal
    with plants so it seems.  Then you are seated all together and lunch
    begins.  First comes crackers/breads with really unusual herb butters,
    spreads, etc.  Then a soup ( my favorite was the harvest soup) and
    then the main course, all of which have herbs dominating so that
    you can really taste the individual herbs/combinations.  Then Mrs.
    Simmons comes out (she's really quite old - in her 80's I think,
    and usually dressed in what I refer to as "old English lady style
    who is about to go walking.)  and tells what was in everything.
    
    Then luncheon is adjourned, and dessert (which hasn't been good
    in my opinion either time I was there) is served along with herbal
    teas in the demonstration area which is convienently located next
    to the gift shop.  However, the food itself is fabulous and I always
    end up buying serveral of her books (which are really just booklets
    in my opinion.)  She has great descriptions of the origin ofthe
    different herbs in folklore and how to combine them. 
    
    It's well worth going to see, only about 2 hrs from Boston and a
    pleasant drive.  There are quite a few historical sites in the area
    as well.
    
    

	Pickety Place is still open year round, and doing very well,
	I might add.  As for Mrs. Simmons' place, it's called 
	Capriland's.  I lived around the corner from the place when 
	I was a grad student at U. of Ct., and, unfortunately, I 
	never went there.  I had heard from some friends that frequent
	the place that IT closed recently, though.  I'll ask them.

	( By the way, Coventry's claim to fame is the "Birthplace of 
	Nathan Hale."  He was born there while his folks were visiting 
	relatives...)

						     
							- JP

    Re .-4  The reason your dill and basil didnt survive the winter
    is because they are annuals....dill will self sow but Ive never
    had this happen to basil....incidentally, I usually plant about
    two packages of basil then transplant it around the yard because
    it is a natural mosqueto repellant.....I also have a herb garden
    of mostly what someone else mentioned but I also have sage which
    can be dried....and I would never plant less than 6 Italian Parsley
    plants....I dont think I could live without Italian Parsley...for
    the first time I dug up three pots of it in the fall and have been
    growing and using it right from the kitchen window....even at that
    I have to buy it because I use it so much....
    
    Rick

    Thanks, .9
    
    Caprilands closes every winter for a couple of months and reopens
    late in the spring.  The only reason I could ever imagine it closing
    is because Mrs. Simmons died.
    
    Love that place though.

    
      All this talk about herbs and no one mentioned FREEZING them.
    That's right, freeze! My wife and I have been doing it for three
    years (freezing herbs) And would never consider drying anymore.
    All you have to do is wash em and shake dry or towel dry.
    We usually throw out last years when we start getting fresh ones
    from the garden. Their almost as good as fresh. I especially like
    to use them in soup stocks this time of year. They have a freshness
    you can't get from dryed herbs. You don't have to thaw em, just
    toss em in. 
                                                             
                                             Rob Burton

	FWIW, this came through USENET about a year ago.

--------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
allspice :: meat (ground),peach,stew,tomatoes
 
anise :: chicken
 
apple :: cinnamon
 
asparagus :: caraway seed
 
basil :: eggs,fish,fish cocktail,lamb,liver,meat (ground),
          salad,sauce,soup,stew
 
bay leaves :: meat,poultry,soup,stew,tomatoes
 
beans (green) :: sage,savory
 
beans (lima) :: rosemary,savory
 
beans (string) :: nutmeg
 
beef :: rosemary
 
biscuits :: sage
 
bread :: caraway seed,cinnamon
 
cabbage :: caraway seed
 
caraway seed :: asparagus,bread,cabbage,meat,noodles,
          salad,soup,stew
 
casseroles :: pimento
 
chicken :: anise,curry powder,ginger,rosemary
 
chives :: eggs,meat dishes,salad,sauces,soup,vegetables
 
cider vinegar :: salad,sauce,vegetables
 
cinnamon :: apple,bread,fruits,pie crust
 
cottage cheese :: nutmeg
 
curry powder :: chicken,fish,lamb,meat,tomato soup,
          tomatoes
 
dill :: fish sauce,macaroni,salad,soup,tomatoes
 
egg dishes :: savory
 
eggs :: basil,chives,thyme,tumeric
 
fish :: basil,basil,curry powder,dill,lemon juice,paprika,
          tumeric
 
fruit :: ginger,nutmeg
 
fruits :: cinnamon
 
garlic :: meat,salad,soup,tomatoes,vegetables
 
ginger :: chicken,fruit
 
lamb :: basil,curry powder
 
lemon juice :: fish,meat,poultry,salad,vegetables
 
liver :: basil
 
macaroni :: dill
 
meat (ground) :: allspice,basil,mustard (dry),savory
 
meat :: bay leaves,caraway seed,chives,curry powder,
          garlic,lemon juice,onion flakes,paprika,rosemary,sage,
          thyme,tumeric
 
mustard (dry) :: meat (ground),salad,sauce
 
noodles :: caraway seed
 
nutmeg :: beans (string),cottage cheese,fruit,pie crust,
          potatoes
 
onion :: thyme
 
onion flakes :: meat,salads,vegetables
 
paprika :: fish,meat,sauce,soup,stew,vegetables
 
peach :: allspice
 
peas :: rosemary,savory,thyme
 
pie crust :: cinnamon,nutmeg
 
pimento :: casseroles,salad,vegetables
 
pork :: rosemary,savory,thyme
 
potatoes :: nutmeg,rosemary
 
poultry :: bay leaves,lemon juice
 
rice,tumeric
 
rosemary :: beans (lima),beef,chicken,meat loaf,peas,
          pork,potatoes,sauce,stuffing,veal
 
sage :: beans (green),biscuits,meat,stew,tomatoes
 
salad :: basil,caraway seed,chives,cider vinegar,dill,
          garlic,lemon juice,mustard (dry),onion flakes,pimento,
          savory,thyme
 
sauce :: basil,chives,cider vinegar,mustard (dry),paprika,
          rosemary,thyme,tumeric
 
savory :: beans (green),beans (lima),egg dishes,meat (ground),
          peas,pork,salad,soup,squash,tomatoes
 
soup :: basil,bay leaves,caraway seed,chives,curry powder,
          dill,garlic,paprika,savory,thyme
 
squash :: savory
 
stew :: allspice,basil,bay leaves,caraway seed,paprika,
          sage
 
stuffing :: rosemary
 
thyme :: eggs,meat,onion,peas,pork,salad,sauce,soup,
          tomatoes,veal
 
tomatoes :: allspice,bay leaves,curry powder,dill,garlic,
          sage,savory,thyme
 
tumeric :: eggs,fish,meat,rice,sauce
 
veal :: rosemary,thyme
 
vegetables :: chives,cider vinegar,garlic,lemon juice,
          onion flakes,paprika,pimento
 
-- 

    You seem to have gotten plenty of advice on what to do with herbs
and spices. So I thought I might pass along some of my experiences at
growing them.
    Plant plenty of Basil. It helps keeps bugs away and is very easy
to grow. Best of all you can make Pesto out of it and Pesto is the
Besto! Pesto freezes well if you leave the cheese out just add it 
after you have thawed it out and are ready to use it.
    Coriander/Cilantro (whatever you want to call it) is also very 
easy to grow. It is used fresh in all kinds of oriental and Latin recipes.
Let some of the plants go to seed and collect the seeds after they turn 
light brown. This is the same coriander seed that you pay a couple bucks
an ounce for in the store. For a Burmese twist to teriyaki sauce add 2
tablespoons of crushed coriander seeds to your favorite recipe for it.
Also at the end of the growing season dig up the plants and cut off the
small carrot like root. Wash them and freeze them. These are a key ingredient
in many Thai and Vietnamese recipes . About the only part of this plant
that has no use is the stem.
    Fresh rosemary is wonderful and the dried version seems lifeless in
comparison. This should be started indoors early so the plant is pretty
well established before transplanting outside. Before the first frost you
can dig up a plant and pot it, then give it a home on a sunny windowsill
and you can have fresh rosemary all winter. Being an evergreen the plants
you leave out will probably survive, but an exceptionally hash winter could
do them in.
    Marjoram makes a nice salad herb and is also great in soups. I found
it required a lot of thinning to keep it from choking itself out. It is
a really underrated herb in my opinion. 
    Try growing a some chives in a pot an a sunny window sill. Someone
else mentioned the garlic variety and I agree with that suggestion. The
flavor is stronger than other types ,but I like that. Add some fresh chopped
garlic chives to a bowl or cup of hot chicken broth and let the aroma and
taste overwhelm your senses.
    If you grow parsley, the flat leaved Italian type has a very nice
flavor. You can also make parsley Pesto instead of basil Pesto. You 
should also save the roots from these and dry them. They give a nice
flavor when used in making chicken soup. I learned this from a neighbor
in Brooklyn who told me this was one of the secrets of "real Jewish
chicken soup". Parsley does not transplant well at all,but can be 
grown inside easily. By all means do so , dried parsley is like
using dried grass.  
    One thing no one else mentioned was growing hot peppers.The variety known
as "Hot Portuguese" produces a nice medium size hot fruit. These can be picked
while green and will turn red as you dry them. These can also be moved indoors 
during the winter. If you take a Q-Tip and pollinate the the plant when it 
blossoms it will set fruit. My wife and I have one pepper plant we have been
moving in and out for 5 years now and its doing just fine.

                                                           Mike  

    Question about growing garlic -
    
    I like the looks of the garlic bulbs braided, and am thinking ahead
    to next Christmas - do the tops get tall and go to seed like onions?
    Should they be dug up when the tops get tall?  Will my neighbors
    still be speaking to me if I plant a load of garlic??  I assume
    they will have to be braided while the tops are still pliable -
    then just let them hang somewhere dry till Christmas time??

    I meant braid and hang the garlic, not my neighbors! :-)

I don't know where you live, but in New England, if you plant garlic cloves, 
at the end of the season, you have these cute little bulbs that look like 
garlic, only real small.  If you replant them again the next year, they'll 
attain a reasonable size.

You can buy braids at some area yuppie stores, I've seen them at about $16 for
a 1 foot braid.  I once had such a braid, and found that the cloves dehydrate
before I can get to them.  (I might add that some of my friends consider me,
from a distance, to be a garlic fiend.)  I've never tried to use the
dehydrated cloves in cooking, but they would probably work in soups.  

The bulbs still looked nice after the cloves "deflated." But by that time, the 
half-used braid looked too ratty to keep.

						     
							- JP

    I've never had a braid myself, I just like the idea of having it
    hanging around the kitchen to use, and hadn't thought about the
    dehydration aspect!  But, at $16 per foot, I'd rather make them
    than buy them if they're gonna shrivel anyway!

    THE "HERB PATCH" IS A GREAT PLACE T0 SHOP.  IT'S NOT VERY BIG, BUT
    ITS FILLED FROM FLOOR TO CEILING.  WHAT I NEED IS THE LOCATION OF
    THE HERB SOCIETY.  IS IT TO THE RIGHT OR LEFT OF BRIGHAMS ICE CREAM,
    AND HOW FAR?  
    
    THANKS
    
      

    

	Where can I find Saffron? I work in the Nashua area and 
	live in the Leominster area, so stores in either area 
	would suffice. I don't know where to start. 


	Rachelle �.    
      

    

        I got mine in Alexander's in Nashua. Don't look for a bottle or
        box. It came in a small aspirin-like tin container. A tiny, tiny
        bit for about $2.

Most of the gourmet shops have a yuppie spice rack, and you'll usually 
find saffron there.  The stuff I've seen (and used) comes in a standard 
size spice bottle, but has a dozen saffron threads looking lonely and 
expensive at the bottom.

For what it's worth, saffron doesn't do much as far as flavor goes --
it's primarily used for color.  With than in mind, you can put tumeric
in your food and get a bright yellow color with only a small change in
flavor.  The cost of an ounce of saffron would probably buy a ton of 
tumeric.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    RE: .20
    
    You can get good Spanish saffron very cheap in the East/West Grocery in
    Lamplighter Square (on Daniel Webster Highway, just across and a bit
    North from Pheasant Lane Mall). 
    
    Re: .22
    
    I beg to differ... try making paella with turmeric and you'll soon
    taste the difference. I agree that saffron doesn't have *much* flavour
    but it seems to have some flavour-enhancing effect on other
    ingredients. I also agree in part about the price but you only need
    about six strands to flavour a whole dish so it goes a long way.
    
    
    Andy

    If you'd like a nice vacation while getting your SAFFRON, go to
    Grenada. I got a 5-ounce jar of it for 35 cents four years ago (right
    after the invasion).
    
    You can get it domestically through some of the cooking mail-order
    catalogs though. As stated in the last message, there is NO substitute
    for a fine ground saffron. It adds the zest but not the unpleasantness
    some people have with curry. I use it extensively for rice and fish
    dishes. Guess I'll have to go to the caribbean again when I run
    out.
    

>    I beg to differ... try making paella with turmeric and you'll soon
>    taste the difference. 

Are you implying that there is ONE recipe for paella?  That's as silly
as saying there is one recipe for Bouillabaisse.  And among the
variations of paella, making it with turmeric doesn't taste the worst by 
a long chalk.

While I agree there are times you'll want to use saffron and not 
substitute tumeric, in most cases the substitution works just fine.

Re: .-1

Ground saffron?  I've only seen it in threads (dried stamen.)  Have you 
ever used the threads?  How do the two compare for the amount used? 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    I have some recipes that call for "ground saffron", and call for
    huge quantities of it (like a teaspoon!  That would be enough saffron
    stamens to color most of the known world yellow!), so my guess is
    that those recipes are asking for some other spice than what I think
    of as saffron, maybe turmeric.  Saffron stamens are red threads.
    In fact, I grow the saffron plants in my garden: they are a
    fall-blooming crocus, and each little bulb makes one little flower
    with five little "threads" (stamens) each fall - you can see why
    the stuff is so expensive.  The plant is native to mountainous areas
    in central and western Asia, so it probably won't grow in places
    like the Caribbean where there is never a cold season, any more
    than tulips will.  So I think there must be two spices that get
    called "saffron".  When I see a recipe that calls for a huge quantity
    of "ground saffron", I use a pinch of saffron threads - works fine
    for me.  Turmeric has a harsher taste, and stains everything orange
    (countertops, pots, pans, spoons, dishes...).  I can't imagine using
    turmeric in something delicate like Indian rice pudding (kheer),
    though, but it might be OK if all you are looking for is to get
    the dish to come out yellow or orange - most bottled "curry powder"
    is mainly turmierc (also usually pretty insipid stuff).

I once found a large bag of saffron in a natural food store for about $1!  It 
contained about 8 oz of the stuff.  It looked just like the stuff my dad used 
to pay dearly for, so I baought it.  Upon trying to use it in cooking we found 
that it required much MUCH more than the expensive stuff.  So, I investigated 
further.  I found out that the stuff was from Central America.  It turns out 
there are 2 kinds of saffron in the world, Spanish Saffron, which comes from 
the hillsides of an area of Spain, and costs about $1000 per pound, and 
saffron from anyplace else, which is significantly cheaper, and is less 
intense in flavor and color.  I have seen the expensive stuff in both powdered 
and thread form.  One small vial, or envelope or whatever is enough to color a 
few pounds of rice.  For the cheaper stuff, you get the same effect with a 
tablespoon.

						     
							- JP

    Yes, saffron is available in both dried stamen and ground. The
    {imitation}saffron, better known as mexican saffron is sort of a
    clone and almost bright yellow. Spanish saffron is red with sometimes
    a purplish tinge. Caribbean Saffron is the same potency as Spanish,
    available both ways, and VERY expensive when imported, but the vendors
    on the beaches don't know that. As a matter of fact they sell "Grenada
    Baskets" with about 20 different 1 oz. bages of spices for $2.00
    and the basket would cost more than that in th U.S.
    
    I use 1/8 tsp for 2 cups of raw rice and it is quite spicy. Mine
    is ground.

    
Re: .25

>    Are you implying that there is ONE recipe for paella?  That's as silly
>as saying there is one recipe for Bouillabaisse.  And among the
>variations of paella, making it with turmeric doesn't taste the worst by 
>a long chalk.

    
    No, I'm not saying there's only one recipe for paella, in fact if
    pushed I'd say that there's NO recipe for it, as it's more of a
    class of dishes. However, the essential ingredient in any paella
    is rice, and in every one I've ever eaten, in whatever region of
    Spain, saffron was used to colour and flavour the rice in the early
    stages. 
    
    I wpuldn't like to bet without more research, but I'm fairly sure
    that turmeric is not well-known in most of Spain, Andalucia being
    a notable exception. I can't find it used in any recipes from any
    other region in any of my Spanish cookbooks and I certainly didn't
    see it in common use during my time there.
    
    Still, I'm willing to try anything once!
    
    Andy

re: .29

I don't want to push it too far into the ground, but paella recipes 
don't even have to come from Spain.  
					>>>==>PStJTT

	 There's a great article on saffron in this month's _Smithsonian_.

	 JJRitz
    

    Yes, I got that magazine on Saturday.  But they only show the saffron
    crocus, not whatever produces the Caribbean saffron.  I've never
    managed to actually harvest saffron from my crocuses (I still think
    they have five stamens each, not three like the article kept saying),
    though - unlike spring crocuses, the flowers are only fresh for
    one day, so I usually miss them.  I really only planted them (along
    with some colchicums, which also have crocus-like flowers) because
    nothing else blooms in late October around here, so people are
    surprised to see crocuses around my house then!  It is fun to have
    "spring" flowers outside at that time of year when everything else
    in my garden is dead for the winter.

    The label on my Saffron bottle says that it is ground from the pistels
    of over 1000 saffron flowers per ounce. I never questioned what
    a saffron flower was. It was bottled in Grenada, by Spices International.

    re: .30

>I don't want to push it too far into the ground, but paella recipes 
>don't even have to come from Spain.  

    
    Before I flee the rathole...
    
    I'll buy it... where else?
    
    (please don't say Mexico or any other Spanish-colonised country
    as the *dish* predates the Conquistadores)
    
    Andy

>    I'll buy it... where else?
>    
>    (please don't say Mexico or any other Spanish-colonised country
>    as the *dish* predates the Conquistadores)
    
Sorry, Mexico is a perfectly legal answer.  As is the Southwest US, and 
for that matter anywhere else (Manitoba?  New South Wales? Sure, why not?) 
The date of origin and the nationality of the cook have no bearing on 
the food.  

If you boil an onion and call it Paella?  A sticky philosophical 
question.  When does a variation become a new recipe?  We all know when 
the line has been crossed, but I doubt a rule can be made for it.

						>>>==>PStJTT

  Paella is made all along the mediterranean coast of France, and in
  much of North Africa. It's the same basic recipe everywhere, and
  always has rice, saffron, and local seafood. There's also usually
  chicken. Even in places outside of Spain where it's been made for
  centuries, people tend to agree that it originated in Spain. Now the
  question is: Who in Spain invented it? There are those who would say
  that the Moslem culture invented and spread it, and its distribution
  around the mediterranean would support that claim.

  - Mike

    

Re: .35    
    
>    Sorry, Mexico is a perfectly legal answer.  As is the Southwest US, and 
>for that matter anywhere else (Manitoba?  New South Wales? Sure, why not?) 
>The date of origin and the nationality of the cook have no bearing on 
>the food.  

    
    I suspect we're not arguing about the same thing. My contention
    was that in order for a dish to be *PROPERLY* called paella, it
    has to contain saffron, and I stand by this. If I understand your
    argument, you are saying that if someone cooks a similar dish but
    uses turmeric, and chooses to call it paella, then it is paella.

    The crux of the argument would seem to be whether the saffron is
    a major or minor ingredient...
    
    Webster's dictionary: 
    
    "Paella, a saffron-flavoured stew containing rice, chicken, seafood
    and various vegetables"
    
>When does a variation become a new recipe?  We all know when 
>the line has been crossed, but I doubt a rule can be made for it.

    In the case of paella, it ceases to be paella when you remove
    the saffron.
    
        
    I rest my case.

    
    Re:-36

    >It's the same basic recipe everywhere, and always has rice, saffron,
    >and local seafood.                                          ^^^^^^^  
    
Thanks for the support!    
    
    
>There's also usually chicken. 
    
    I've also seen (and tasted) rabbit instead of chicken. Good!
    
> Now the question is: Who in Spain invented it? There are those who
> would say that the Moslem culture invented and spread it, and its
> distribution around the mediterranean would support that claim. 
    
    
    I've been wondering about this myself. My first thoughts would tend to
    agree with the Moorish influence but the origin of the name seems to be
    from the Middle-French word 'paelle' which in turn stems from the Latin
    'patella' meaning 'a small pan', so this could indicate that the dish
    was around before the Moors invaded Spain in the 8th century. Not
    conclusive, especially as an old name could have been reapplied
    to a more modern dish.
    
    Some more research required!
    
    
    Andy
    
    
    paelle
    patella 
    

>    Webster's dictionary: 
>    
>    "Paella, a saffron-flavoured stew containing rice, chicken, seafood
>    and various vegetables"

I give up.  Anyone who gets their recipes from Websters is dealing with 
a reality too different from mine.  
					>>>==>PStJTT

  If you were to make the dish in Spain, and use turmeric instead of
  saffron, and serve it to a Spanish person and ask them what it is,
  what would they say? They could answer either 

  "It's paella, but with turmeric instead of saffron",

  or

  "It's not paella, there's no saffron. I don't know what to call it". 

  My bet is they probably wouldn't know what to call it. If that were
  the case, then you could truthfully say, in Spain at least, that if it
  doesn't have saffron, it's not paella. But, honestly, who really
  cares?

  - Mike

Re: -.2
>I give up.  Anyone who gets their recipes from Websters is dealing with 
>a reality too different from mine.  

    No! I get my recipes from cookbooks, my definitions from dictionaries,
    and my fun from pointless arguments in NOTES.  ;-)
    
    But seriously, I believe that a dish which has been around for in
    excess of 1000 years deserves to be treated with respect, and cooked
    using the authentic ingredients. Just my opinion, but 300 generations
    of Spaniards can't be wrong, can they?

    
Re: -.1 
        
>  If you were to make the dish in Spain, and use turmeric instead of
>  saffron, and serve it to a Spanish person and ask them what it is,
>  what would they say? They could answer either 
>
>  "It's paella, but with turmeric instead of saffron",
>
>  or
>
>  "It's not paella, there's no saffron. I don't know what to call it". 

    
    My guess is that they'd say noting at all, be extremely polite 
    and comment to each other on the way home:
    
    "That paella-stuff had a strange flavour, they must cook it differently
    where she/he comes from"
    
    
   'Nuff said.
    
    
    Andy

I thought it was paella because it was cooked in a traditional paella pan.  
Otherwise, it would be a saffron flavored stew...

However, I have a question to pose to all you philosophic gourmet linguists:

    If I add saffron to my Jambalaya recipe, does that make it a paella?

    Re: .41
    
  > If I add saffron to my Jambalaya recipe, does that make it a paella?

    
    Now we're into the question of necessary and sufficient conditions!
    
    My view:
    
    It is necessary for a paella to contain saffron, but containing saffron
    is not sufficient to make something a paella (as can be clearly seen by
    considering the paper bag in which you bring the saffron home -
    is this a paella?)
    
    Therefore, your jambalaya does not become a paella... but...
    
    Does it remain a jambalaya????
    
    As someone not a million miles from this note once said:
    
    "who cares anyway?"
    
    Does anyone know whether there's a philosophy conference to which
    we might transplant this rathole? ;-)
    
    Andy
    
    
    
     

< Note 497.20 by CSSE32::BELLETETE "the Duke makes me Puke" >
                            -< Looking for Saffron >-
 
Geez!! All I asked is where can I find saffron......this is a perfect 
example of digressions in action....or follow me into this rathole.....

Actually it has been fun reading all these replies about saffron.

;^) what question can I ask now....

Rachelle �.      

    

    Back to the subject of herbs and spices.  
    
    Like the originator of this note (some two years ago!) I too have 
    wanted to know more about the various herbs and spices.  The first 
    thing that I found was that in most cases a dab will do ya'. It is 
    easy to overpower a dish by using too much of a particular seasoning.  
    (For example, I made rice in beef broth the other night.  I thought
    I'd try something different and add little tarragon.... I can now
    tell you from experience that over � tsp is not a little tarragon.)
    
    Secondly different seasonings are used in different quantities.  If 
    you are making a cream sauce for pasta you would not want to add as 
    much cayenne pepper as you would parsley, for example. Then again I 
    have a couple of friends from So. Korea who tend to like things on 
    the "warm" side :^)           
    
    I would like to know what seasonings are more pungent than others.
    Also, do you adjust the amout if you are using fresh as opposed
    to dried?
    
    			Eric " The Bumbling 'Gourmet' "

A partial reply, at least:

fresh herbs are less concentrated than dried herbs.  Always double the
amount of fresh (at least) if the recipe specifies dried herbs measurments.

More pungent - well, in some ways, this is opinion.....I am most circumspect
when adding herbs like tarragon and dill...a little goes a long way.  However,
I really LOVE parsley, chives, and garlic - so I've never added too much...
at least I didn't think so 8^}.  I am careful with oregano, but generous
with bay leaves...

As for spices (not herbs, but still important):

I recommend being real careful with allspice, ginger, sage, any pepper, and
nutmeg.  I am very generous with cinnamon and have never had any problems.
A rule of thumb to me is if the dish I am seasoning is very bland without
seasoning, it will display "too much" symptoms very fast...if the dish has
more flavor, it is more forgiving....hence, spaghetti sauce is rarely
"over seasoned" even though vastly different quantities of seasonings are
applied by different cooks...

    
    Any good herbal tea recipes out there?  
    
    Randy

    
    	This may or maynot be a good herbal tea recipe but I thought it
     was unusual. I was at a plant store and I bought some seed packets.
     One of these seed packets was for catnip. According to the back of the
     packaging catnip can be used as....
    
    	A treat for cats, who love to smell and rub against its leaves. Or
    dry and sew into cat toys. Steep the dried leaves in boiling water to
    make tea.
    
    						jim

    I never thought of making tea for my cats.
    
    :-)
    
    ed

    
    Ed, have you ever thought about making tea FROM your cats?
    
    Just an idea. 8-).
    Diane
    
    

    Can someone tell me how to make "fines herbs"? (not sure of the
    spelling)... I believe it's an Arcadian recipe.  A co-worker made me a
    batch a long time ago and I have not been able to find a recipe....Any
    Maine-iacs out there know what I'm talking about?
    
    Thnx!
    -Dotti.

>    Can someone tell me how to make "fines herbs"? (not sure of the
>    spelling)... I believe it's an Arcadian recipe.  A co-worker made me a
>    batch a long time ago and I have not been able to find a recipe....Any
>    Maine-iacs out there know what I'm talking about?
    
Traditional herb mixture used in continental cuisine - any good cookbook
should be able to direct you...or you should be able to buy them (Shillings
carries a mix, I believe).  I know Julia Child has this in a cookbook - if
all else fails, hie thee to a library and get the recipe....

				D

    Actually, this particular mixture is not your usual herb mixture.  It
    looks like scallions in a jar of salted water, which in fact, it just
    might be.   The mixture is used to season soups, stews, etc.
    
    The person who gave me the mixture has since left DEC and she said her
    family, way up Maine, has used this for generations!!  Anyone know how
    to make this?
    
    Thnx.
    
    -Dotti.

    According to my 'The World of Herbs & Spices', fines herbes is:
    
    "The classic herb mix of French haute cuisine is known as fines herbes.
    This is a delicate combination of three or four herbs, preferably
    fresh, used to flavor many dishes.  The usual portions are equal parts
    parsley, chervil, chives and tarragon.  Other mild herbs may be
    substituted."
    
    Hope this helps.
    Judy
    

    On the other hand, Dotti, the person who originally gave you
    this mixture may have called it that as a family name for their
    mixture. It may have little to do with the better known version
    of this.
    In which case its time to hunt that person down! 8-)
    
    
    Monica

    
    
    I think what you are looking for is called 'Herbes Salees' or Salted
    Herbs.  I haven't seen this since I worked in a supermarket in a
    predominately French-speaking part of Maine.  It was made by a local
    woman and was sold in mason jars. 
    
    

    re:  .55 by ASDG::Harris
    
    Brian,
    
    That's it!  Thank you.  Now that I know what it's called, where do I
    get it??
    
    -Dotti.

 You can buy salted herbs at Soucy's market in Nashua.

 It's a must for flavoring soups. :-)

 From rt 3 south, take exit 5E. Go down Kinsley street, and take a left at
the lights at St. Joseph's hospital. At the next light, go right. You'll be
able to see Soucy's across the street to the right.

    Anybody know where I could find some angelica root? I've checked the
    local spice racks and natural-food stores to no avail... (If I'd known
    I would want some I'd have planted some angelica last year, but noooo.)
    
    thx,
    -b

	B, if Concord Spice and Grain, in Concord, MA isn't too far
	for you - they carry it in bulk.

	Diane

    Thanks - forgot to mention I'm in the southern NH area, but I do get as
    far as Concord sometimes. ;-) [I don't need much, though; does Spice
    and Grain sell small quantities, too?]
    
    -b

>>    far as Concord sometimes. ;-) [I don't need much, though; does Spice
>>    and Grain sell small quantities, too?]

	Yes, you can get as little as you want.  Be aware that they have
	a 25 cent minimum though.  8^)


	Di

  Does anyone have the ingredients for "Herbs de Provence" (sp?)

                                         Bud

    
    
    Herbes de Provence is a popular herb blend from the south of France
    which reflects the historical influence of the Romans.  It usually
    contains the following:   French rosemary, thyme, tarragon, basil,
    savory, cracked fennel, lavendar and marjoram.
    
    
    				

     Thanks for the input
    
                              Bud

    I don't know what to do--some bug is eating my Basil.  I've tried that
    garden dust stuff, but it doesn't seem to be working.  My pineapple
    Sage is also getting eaten.  Is there anything you can recommend?
    
    Karima

    Another great way to use herbs is to flavor olive oil or vinegar.  My
    husband and I went to this great Italian restaurant in Worcester
    (Tiano's) and they served fresh bread with olive oil.  In the bottle of
    olive oil was rosemary (it might have had garlic too).  I know it sounds 
    gross to dip your bread in oil, but it was really great! (I'm sure it's not 
    good for your health though...)
    
    I also saw terragon flavored white wine vinegar in the supermarket.
    
    Karima
    

    re: .66
     Actually, olive oil IS good for your health. Of course, if you eat too
    much of it it isn't good for your weight!
    
    Debbie
    

    rep .65
    
    What do these bugs look like?  You can try using Ortho Insectacidal
    soap.  1/2 Gal. jug w/sprayer at Home Depot is $10.97, I believe.  At
    least this may deter them from eating your basil, and it isn't harmful
    to humans.  It states that you can use this up to the day of harvest. 
    So just wash your herbs off in cold water before eating and you're
    fine.  I've been using this on my eatables to keep Japanese Beetles
    from eating up my garden.  
    
    	Good luck.
    
    	-VT

Is it Japanese Beetle time already? If so, you have my sympathy. They
devour basil mercilessly, and they're almost impossible to get rid of.
The insecticidal soap is probably the best remedy, but it's not totally
effective, and you have to do it often, making it inconvenient. If you
use the soap and have a fairly large amount of basil, you'll be able to
recover enough for kitchen use. If you only have a couple of plants,
you may not get much.

Another alternative is to grow a different variety of basil. The
beetles are much less interested in the "Green Ruffles" and especially
"Purple Ruffles" varieties, though these have much less flavor than the
traditional sweet basil, and are usually grown mainly as ornamentals.

    You might want to check out the gardening conference.  There is lots
    of discussion in there about insects and japanese beetles.
    
    FDCV14::garden
    
    Judie
    
    

    Can anyone tell me anything about Curry Leaves and if they have another
    more common name etc. I can't seem to find them anywhere in Bristol,
    England, but I have many recipies that call for their use.
    
    Rich
    

Curry leaves are a spice that consists of the leaf of some plant 
(just like bay leaves are the leaf of the laurel bush). I don't think 
they have any common name in English.  Here in the US, I've only seen 
them in oriental markets.  In England, I'd try an Indian or Pakistani 
market.

--PSW

    re curry leaves:
    
    I've bought them in Asian grocery shops (in the Reading area but
    I'm sure they'll exist in Bristol too). I've also seen them in the
    herbs & spices section of some large supermarkets, though i can't
    remember which ones - I'm sure they're in the Schwartz (sp?) range of
    spices.
    
    Jim
    

    
    Anyone know where I can score a good bunch of fresh thyme near
    the HLO site?
    
    Regards,
    Kev --
    

    You might want to try Applefield farm stand on RT 117 in Stow. If
    you're heading toward RT 495 on 117, it's on your left just before the
    turn-off to the Stow (OGO) Digital facility.
    
    ****andrea****

    
    RE: .1
    
    Thanks.
    
    Kev --