Conference trucks::football;1

    Yesterday Ruud Gullit left the Training Camp of the Dutch team. He was
    dissappointed but didn't want to comment untill after the Tournament. I
    think we just lost that tiny chance to be the new World Champion.....
    
    pffff.....John

>>> Yesterday Ruud Gullit left the Training Camp of the Dutch team. He was
>>> dissappointed but didn't want to comment untill after the Tournament. I
>>> think we just lost that tiny chance to be the new World Champion.....
    
>>> pffff.....John
    
    
    John, you're not just trying to lull the world into a false sense of
    security, are you???? ;*)  If Gullit's heart isn't in it then Holland
    are better off without him....good luck anyway....
    
    Ray....

    
    Ruud is nothing but a big ponce. I would tell him to pish off and never
    come back. In fact, I would hand him a colour 14" remote control TV and
    tell him that will be the only place he'l be watching Dutch
    internationals in future.
    
    Tony
    
     

    re-2 (Ray)  
    Ray,
    if you found out my secret psychological warfare about telling that we
    are lost now......don't tell it public...;-)
    
    No, it was more an outlet of my frustration that the national team
    always have some riot before a big tournament......The rest of the team
    picked the leaving of Ruud good, though ; they beat Hungary with 7-1 !
    
    John

    Yeah, John.
    And Marco Van Basten will probably join the dutch team.
    Did you notice in yesterday's game that Advocaat started with all Ajax-
    or ex-Ajax-players, except for Edje de Goeij?
    Advocaat said it was purely co�ncedental. But in the meantime...  :)
    
    Marcel

    re -1  Logically Advocaat has to play with (ex)-Ajaxplayers to get
           any result........
    Well, look at note 15 for my opinion about Marco. I don't think it is
    wise for him to let him play.....In such a decision you have to
    remember that you have to walk on that leg, the rest of your life. One
    kick against it now, and it could be all over. Examples of that are
    numerous.......I wished I could see him play in the US but.....
    
    John

    Marco is not coming along!  :(
    Milan didn't give himpermission.
    Too bad. Another good player not playing for us.
    
    Marcel

  Marcel , Van der Best stated on TV that he would only come on for the last
10-15 mins if required that their was no way he could last even 45 mins.. So
not really a big loss, but overall a fit Van Basten is a loss for the WC.

                                                                  -dave-

    RE.-1
    >>Marcel , Van der Best stated on TV that he would only come on for the
    Who is Van der Best? You can't mean Van Basten, cause later in the
    reply you do name him Van Basten. Or do you?
    
    Marcel

  I called him Van der Best because to me he has been one of the "best"
consistent strikers in the world over the past six or seven years excluding last
year where he has been injured.

                                                    mystery solved....

                                                          -dave-

    Okay, I agree. I am an Ajax-fan, and (as we all know) Marco became
    *big* at Ajax. I loved to see him play in our team, and was sad when he
    left for Milan. Well, you certainly have my permission to call him
    that.  :)
    
    Marcel

    Does anyone have any info on the likely starting line up for Belgium ?
    
    Terry

Ok, here's the line up of Belgium. 
Btw , here's a message for our Dutch friends:

	Watch out, underdogs do byte...


===============================================================================

			       Michel Preudhomme

				Michel De Wolf			

Lorenzo Staelens		Phillipe Albert			Rudy Smidts
			
			      Franky Van der Elst
Marc Degryze							Danny Boffin
				Enzo Scifo				

		  Luc Nilis			    Joske Weber

===============================================================================
    

    
    Well I recognised 3 of those names, can you give us their clubs too.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Andy 'desperately trying to get interested in the world cup'.

Sorry , I probably forgot Georges Grun, the team should look more like this:

===============================================================================

			       Michel Preudhomme 
			(KV Mechelen - next year Benfica)

				Michel De Wolf 
				(Anderlecht)

Lorenzo Staelens 		Georges Grun			Phillipe Albert
(F.C. Bruges)		(Parma, next year Anderlecht)   	 (Anderlecht)

			      Franky Van der Elst
				(F.C. Bruges)
Marc Degryze							Danny Boffin
(Anderlecht)							(Anderlecht)
				Enzo Scifo
				(Monaco)				

		  Luc Nilis			    Joske Weber
      (Anderlecht , next year PSV)	(C.S. Bruges, next year Anderlecht)
===============================================================================
    

    RE.-3
    
    Well, I guess we will just have to put them to sleep then!  :)
    No, seriously: who says that you are the underdogs?
    I am dutch, and I even predicted that you Belgians would be the number
    one of group F.
    
    Marcel
    
    P.S. I predicted Holland - Belgi� : 1-1  (of 2-2 ?) Ik weet het niet
    meer zeker, maar het was een gelijkspel.

    Belgium Vs. Morocco   1:0
    
    But I think Morocco's performance is also good.
    
    Another strong African team..mygod...

                      P  W  D  L  GF  GA Pts
    Belgium           1  1  0  0   1   0   3
    Holland           0  0  0  0   0   0   0
    Saudi Arabia      0  0  0  0   0   0   0
    Morocco           1  0  0  1   0   1   0
    
    
    19th June '94
    Orlando             Belgium        1-0      Morocco
    
    20th June '94
    Washington          Holland         v       Saudi Arabia
    
    25th June '94
    Orlando             Belgium         v       Holland
    East Rutherford     Morocco         v       Saudi Arabia
    
    29th June '94
    Orlando             Morocco         v       Holland
    Washington          Belgium         v       Saudi Arabia

Well I'd have to say that I've never seen so many missed chances in a football
game as there were in the Belgium v Morocco match.
A draw would have been a fair result but there you go. I predict the the Ductch
are upset by this very attractive African team.

Peter.

    Well, Peter, we will first have to play the Saudis tonight.
    I might just watch it, although it is at 1:30!  :(
    Too big a time-difference.
    
    I haven't seen the Belgian game, but I was told, that the Africans
    looked great and a draw would be deserved.
    
    Marcel

    
    
     Didn't see the whole game, but Morocco looked very very weak at the
    back. They are quite good going forward and have some players who
    strike the ball very well but I would expect the Dutch to beat them
    by 3 or 4 goals. Belgium were a bit disappointing as well, although
    Scifo was pretty impressive.
    
     Danny.

    
    Have to agree with Danny, Morocco were very impressive up front, but
    they have no defence. Holland are tough at the back, but might conceed
    one goal against these guys, and probably a spectacular one at that,
    but that shouldn't stop the dutch from sticking at least three past 
    Morocco. Thank God my sisters boyfriend can't see this, I've told him I
    thought Morroco had a good chance, but that was only to make him feel
    good. Oh, he's from Morocco by the way :-).
    
    Se�n

    Lucky, lucky Dutch!!  One goalkeeping error (pity - he had kept 
    well up to that point) and they squeak in.  One of the most 
    exciting games from a non-aligned point-of-view. Non-stop hammer 
    on the Saudi goal for periods interspersed by break-away chances 
    for the Saudis.  They are no walk-over.

    Gerry

    P.S Best supporter's uniform I've seen so far - an Arab Guttra
    (headgear - long white head scarf that hangs down over the
    shoulders with a black band around the head).  This one was over a
    great Donald Duck hat!  Having worked in Saudi for 4 years I 
    appreciated that!

    Could anybody please tell me who scored the goals for the Dutch. The
    game was a little bit to late for me last night.
    
    Frank

    Re. -1
     
    Netherlands - Saudi Arab.
    
    0 - 1  an Arab
    
    Half-time
    
    1 - 1  Wim Jonk (Inter Milan)
    2 - 1  Gaston Taument (Feyenoord)
    
    Jeroen.

    Frank, the dutch goals were scored by Jonk (57th minute) from about 25
    metres from the goal, just like in his Ajax-days. The winning goal was
    scored by Taument, from Feijenoord, after a big mistake of the Saudi
    goal-keeper. Even I could have scored it, but I'm glad he did. :)
    
    As for the game: The Saudis started very optimistic and kinda
    overwhelmed the dutch. They scored the first goal after 19 minutes.
    They made it to halftime, after being attacked the entire half by a
    willing, but unable dutch team.
    
    The second half went on where the first had stopped: the dutch
    attacking and the Saudis countering with some good chances. Jonk
    decided to tie the score his own well known way. 25 metres and one of
    the best goals in this tournament so far, IMHO.
    Everyone in Holland thought: Now they are gonna go on and make it 4-1
    or so. But again it wouldn't work as we wanted it to.
    
    Five minutes before the end, the Saudi keeper, who played a good game,
    made one of his few mistakes. Frank de Boer crossed the ball, swerving
    away from the goal. The keeper went for it, but went underneath it.
    Behind him was Taument, who headed it in. His first goal with the head
    since the junior league.
    
    I think the game was very good to watch for an impartial viewer. We
    dutch would have wanted it a little different, but were all very happy
    to win it after all. This must have been one of the worst games we've
    ever played.
    
    Marcel, glad I didn't stay up till 3:45 am for nothing.  :)

    By the way, has anyone seen that Nike commercial?
    I think it's pretty cool!

    
    I'll take a stab....
    
    Cantona, Maldini, Bebeto, Romario and the Mexican goalkeeper...
    
    Great ad....

    Well I stayed up late to watch the match and I thought that the Dutch
    defense were awful. The full back, De Boer was rubbish, Van Gobbel
    obviously isn't international class and Koeman doesn't seem to have the
    appetite for it. I was impressed by Jonk and, at times, Bergkamp. Apart
    from those two players I can't say that I was impressed. The Dutch will
    need to improve 200% to get a result against the Belgians....
    
    Ray....

    Well, don't be *too* hard on us.
    The Belgians first game was no picnic either.
    And games against Belgium, aswell as against Germany, always have that
    extra bit to it. That will be a completely different game, believe me.
    
    Marcel 

    What a games....I think that SA and Marocco deserved to equalize..
    And again, the dutch defense was terrible. How long does Advocaat wants
    to wait to put in Danny Blind. He is at least a real defender, where
    van Gobbel is just a runner.......Koeman never impressed on this
    position as defender, but his passes and shooting is great...But where
    was that, last night ? I saw a similar goal as the Irish against Italy
    When Ireland had the ball, there were always enough possibilities to
    give the ball to another teammate. When Italy had the ball, the rest
    was just waiting for it. The same yesterday.....I put on the TV at
    Three a'clock and I thought I was still sleeping and had a bad
    dream....the arabs had lots of possibilities where the dutch could get
    near the goal.....horrible !
    On the other hand, this was the first victory for the dutch in a World
    Cup after 16 years ( WC Argentina, against Italy 2-1)!!!! And the start
    of the dutch is always terrible, because everyone expects them to be
    without troubles in the final ! Hopefully the Arabs have awaked them,
    yesterday !
    Oh, Ruud, why did you leave...........
    
    John

>Marcel, glad I didn't stay up till 3:45 am for nothing.  :)

 So, Marcel, did you stay up or what?????

Kevin.

    RE.33
    
    Yes, I did, Kevin. I decided I didn't wanna miss our first game after
    all. What's this ?     -< The defender was Blind >-
    
    What do you mean?
    
    Marcel

>       <<< Note 383.34 by ELIS::BOEREN "I aim to please. Then I fire!" >>>
>                           -< No way, he could see! >-
>
>    RE.33
>    
>    Yes, I did, Kevin. I decided I didn't wanna miss our first game after
>    all. What's this ?

I'm glad, I thought it a bit presumptious to assume that your team would
win. No-one in Ireland would miss a WC match, even if it was against
someone like San Marino and starting at 3:00 AM.

I must say that I wasn't going to watch it all, intending to retire
after about 20 mins and tape the rest. So what do SA do, score in the
18th minute!!! I then said I'd watch till half time, to give the Dutch a
chance to equalize, but you didn't, so I ended up watching the whole
game. Great entertainment, very fast paced match, I bet there are a few
tired Dutch players today.

I'll bet the Morocco and Saudi match will be an entertaining cracker
also.



-< The defender was Blind >-

Refers to John's .32 and Danny Blind. I can just see the Tabloids if he
makes a mistake and causes a goal... 
    

Regards,

Kevin.

    Yeah, Kevin, I would have wanted you to get your sleep. I just wished
    that we would have been in front by 3-0 at halftime, but we weren't.
    So you enjoyed the match, right? Not a display of great soccer, but at
    least it was 'spannend', how do you call it, exciting, no, that's not
    it. I mean that it was gonna be a close one, would Holland be able to
    win after all. BTW, we were the first team that won, after having been
    behind, *and* it was our first win in a WC since *16* years.
    
    About Blind causing a goal, maybe on the Belgian side! Blind has to be
    the most constant, reliable soccer player I know. A soccer-magazine in
    Holland always gives players a rating, after every league game that is
    played. I think Blind hasn't gotten a grade lower than an 8 (out of a
    possible 10 ) in the last 3 years. He *always* plays good.
    
    Just another thought: Why does Advocaat put Koeman on the team?
    He's slow, he can't defend properly, he always makes at least one
    mistake, due to his slowness, or another reason.
    For the defending? No, just put Blind in.
    For the pass? Maybe, but Jonk's pass is at least as good as Koeman's.
    For the shot? Maybe, but again Jonk's shot is no less than Koeman's.
    So I say: Koeman out, Blind in. Blind always plays the Koeman spot with
    Ajax, and gets straight 8's.
    
    Marcel

As it's my last day of the week, I would like to give my preds for the cracker on 
saturday. Even if I know that we are better than the Dutch, and even I've to say 
it with a lot of pain in my heart, I wish that the Dutch team will win. Why?

Probably the first of group F has to face in  next round Italy and thereafter 
Brasil to go to the semi's, as for the second of group F will get a easier (at 
least on paper) draw to the semi's. I think it's first the second of group B 
(Sweden or Cameroun) and then winner of Roumenia - Bulgaria (??).

So for the first time I will cheer for the Orange team



Paddy

Jonk seems to be a player who rises to the big occasion, but never gets any
'superstar' publicity.

I don't know much about him, but didn't he:

	- Score the winner for Ajax in their European final in 1989?
	- Score the winner for Inter-Milan in this year's UEFA Cup second leg?

He seems to be able to turn thing around when the rest of his team are not
playing that well?

Stephen Simpson

    re-2 Paddy...Everything all right ? I thought that winning from the
    dutch is more then getting the cup........;-)
    re-1 Jonk is one of the best but also one of the most underestimated (
    what a word) players in this world....When he was with Ajax only the
    last two or three years he got a chance to play. Why, I don't know but
    the same happened this year at Inter Milan.
    He is a great player who indeed scored on essential moments. His goal
    last Monday was the turnaround in the game.........
    re Marcel...van Gobbel out, Blind in ! Let Koeman stay....
    
    John

    RE.-1,-2,-3
    I agree, Jonk is one of the most underestimated (dutch) players. I'm
    glad that Advocaat put him in, even though Wouters is in too.
    John, why let Koeman stay?
    Van Gobbel adds something to the team. Not all positive, but certainly
    his speed must be considered positive.
    What does Koeman add? Read my last reply and tell me what Koeman can
    do, that noone else can.
    Paddy, so you'd rather lose to the dutch, beat an 'easy' team and then
    loose in the quarter finals, than beat the dutch and lose to the
    Italians? If you're looking for a high place, nothing counts but first.
    Look at '74 and '78. Who ever mentions that (besides the dutch)?
    Noone, only the winner is remembered. So, whether you play tough or
    easy teams, you will always end up playing another good team, so it
    might as well be soon. Once you've played against (and beaten) Italy
    and Brasil, what can stop you from becoming the next World Champion?
    On the other hand, when you only play weak teams, as you seem to
    consider them, you will have a hard time playing against a tough team
    all of a sudden.
    What about the chance of loosing to one of the 'lesser' teams?
    Wouldn't you look silly? It's better to lose against a good team, then
    to lose against a lesser team.
    
    I say: Go Holland, be nr. 1 and beat Italy and Brasil. That way, noone
    can complain afterwards that we didn't meet any of the good teams on
    our way to our first WC title!
    
    Marcel

    RE -1
    
    I think Koeman is a bit on the slow side to be playing 
    at the heart of the Dutch defence. It's a pity Gullit
    didn't travel, any news on why so ?
    
    You'd be surprised how many non-Dutch people remember
    their teams of 74 and 78 (especially 74). I still 
    recall Cryuff's (spell) super volley against Brazil, 
    a great player he was, one of the best... (and he smoked 
    20 cigarettes a day!)
    
    Then there was that famous 40 meter goal by Arie Haan
    in 78... incredible!!
    
    Jim. 

    Belgium - Holland 1-0
    
    I could have predicted it ; the dutch as best side having the best of
    the match but not scoring. And the luck they missed used Albert to make
    his lucky goal. After that we were lucky that it remained 1-0. And
    after that Belgium was lucky that it ended up with 1-0. But it was our
    own fault, we just couldn't score.......and if we fired on the goal
    there was always de Wolf ( even with his hands !) and last but not
    least "long trouser" Proudhon....man, did he have a day.....!
    Disturbing detail ; there was that nasty joker walking on that field,
    making sure that the dutch won't meet to fast his countrymen.....that
    Brazilian referee......I suggest that he reads a book about basic rules
    of football or so....
    But believe me, it was not the referee that made the dutch loose !
    Congrats Paddy, unfortunately your strategy of getting second in the
    group is smashed by us ! ;-)  Thanks for the tip, anyway !
    
    John
    
    Marcel I hope you saw why Koeman has to stay in ; his passes from
    distance are marvellous and he always is a danger for the opponent when
    he is able to shoot. He has his reputation, you know ? But now he took
    van Gobbel out and put Valkx in. Did he never heard of Blind ????? 
    

rep -1

John,

for the first time in ages I completely agree with you :-))) but on the matter
of Blind I don't think he will get a minute of playing time in this WC tour-
nament. Advocaat doesn't seem to like him as a back so they only change he
has is Koeman getting injured so he can take over the middle in defence.


T_

You Dutch people will never change, are you?
How can you say that Holland deserve to win? Belgium got more chances than the 
Orange team. As for the keeping of Preud'homme, I admit he had a great game (BTW 
so did Ed De Goey) but that's a goalie's job.
As for the referee, I do not want to discuss this because I've problems with any 
sportsreferee, but the cards he gived were mostly deserved. And what about the red 
card not given to De Goey?
Another thing for you Dutch, De Wolf never touched the ball with his hands, as the 
replay has shown.

So to the next round. I hope we'll drawn Italy (if they qualify!) or Norway. 
Please not Mexico or Ireland. And then the clash with Brasil.

As for Holland, I know your Dutch are always thinking you will become 
worldchampion, but if you loose to the Maroccons, you're OUT!!


Paddy

    
    Eh...I think Preud'homme may be in top spot for the Yashin Cup ....
    
    Ah....if only Holland had Van Basten....
    
    Dezzz.

    So, a totally unbiased 'Engelsman' (Brit) living in Holland enters the
    foray!
    
    I watched Saturday's match in a superb atmosphere, at my Father In
    Law's birthday party with the Grolsch flowing! 
    
    What a game, the best of the championship yet I must say. For my guilders 
    worth, I feel the Belgians deserved to win. It was a most unexepected 
    strategy. Belgium could have played what they're best at, defending and 
    going for a draw, but they didn't. Their attacking play was superb, as 
    was the defending when it was needed - last 15 minutes or so.
    
    In a way, Holland are in a slightly better position now as they will
    probably qualify second and hence with an easier second round draw.
    
    What was marvellous was that I heard Belgian and Dutch supporters were
    parting all-night together after the match in Orlando.
    
    Still, looking forward to Wednesday. (and Tuesday of course for our
    Irish cousins!!)
    
    Dave
     

rep .44

Never seen so much cr*p in one entry in all these years, keep up the good
work menneke!


T_

    RE.John
    Okee, I agree on the ref thing.
    I also agree on the Loeman thing, now.  :)
    Blind vs Valckx seems obvious to you, me and the rest of the world,
    except Advocaat. Too bad.
    
    RE.Paddy and so
    How can you say that Belgium deserved to win?
    Holland played great, had a lot of chances. I you would have had
    another goalie, we would have humiliated you. What a game, the best
    yet, no doubt about that!
    
    I think Wouters was to blame for the goal. He didn't cover the corner
    right, and then he used his right foot instead of his left, to try to
    kick away a ball that came to his left.  :(
    Too bad. Who knows, might be better this way, *if* we beat Morocco.
    BTW, I think the Belgians will have a tough game against the Saudis.
    
    About the partying: That was also the case over here. All people were
    partying like on a normal saturday night. Worst thing I heard: Too bad,
    now we will have to beat the Morroco team. Nobody seemed too much
    disappointed, maybe in the ref, but not in the team. Nobody angry, no
    fights, only positive feelings, which is a little new to me over here.
    
    Marcel.
    
    P.S. We could still finish first, and Belgium could still be third.
    If we beat Morocco, and the Belgians lose to Saudi Arabia, which is
    very possible, since they played good games so far, then all 3 teams
    will have 6 points. Wouldn't that be surprising?

    This was a very entertaining game. I thought a draw might
    have been a fairer result, although for me Belgium always 
    looked like they would win the game. Outstanding display
    by Preud-Homme and also by De Goey at the other end. He
    should have been sent off for the handball.
    
    Schifo looked dangerous in the first half but less so when
    Wittsge (sp ?) marked him after halftime.
    
    Wouters definitely used his wrong foot to clear the ball,
    I don't know what he was trying to do (Belgium goal).
    
    Any one of these teams could make it to the semis with a 
    bit of luck, though I think Rijkaard should play in defence,
    
    Jim.

    re Ton ; you made my day ! ;-) Blind for Valkx !
    re Paddy ; and you always say you will loose ! And when did the Goey
    made hands ????? De Wolf handball was clearer ( even German TV said
    it!)
    re others : Yes, equal would be the right one !
    
    John
    
    Not to worried !
    

    Before the wc started my money was on Holland as a surprise winner. Now     
    after watching a team that did not seem to have the spirit to win, my
    money is on Argentina or Brazil.
    
    m
    

    >  after watching a team that did not seem to have the spirit to win
    
    What game did you watch?
    Bolivia - South Korea, the rerun?
    Both teams wanted to win in the best game of the tournament yet.
    'Did not seem to have the spirit to win', huh, what a crap!
    
    Marcel

    Funny enough I watched the belgiums troche a unspirited dutch team.

    You sure you watched the uncensored version?  :)
    Well, even if you *did* think they were uninspired, you must admit that
    we were playing better than against the Saudis!
    
    Marcel

    re uncensored version ....
    
    I guess that must have been it.
    
    Marcel, as I said earlier. I wanted Holland to win the WC, and thought
    they could. But at the moment, they seem not to have the spirit to win.
    They don't seem to have to believe they can really beat teams like
    Brazil, Germany etc without the help of Van bastan, gullet etc. 
    
    Still, it's early day still.
    
    m
    

Well, as an Englishman, I can be neutral in all games - and Saturday's match 
was myfavourite so far. I disagree with .-1, I thought it was european 
football at its best. Two fine sides playing great stuff (apart from the 
shooting of course).

Don't blame Wouters - who was supposed to be marking Albert?

You'll both qualify - I hope!

grahame

      <<< Note 383.56 by FORTY2::ASH "Mail Interchange Group, Reading" >>>

>>Well, as an Englishman, I can be neutral in all games - and Saturday's match 
>>was myfavourite so far. I disagree with .-1, I thought it was european 
>>football at its best. Two fine sides playing great stuff (apart from the 
>>shooting of course).
>>
>>Don't blame Wouters - who was supposed to be marking Albert?
>>
>>You'll both qualify - I hope!
>>
>>grahame

Grahame,

you hit the nail on the head, Rijkaard should have marked Albert and I
believe de Boer was too far out of the box for a defender. A well it
happened and whatever everybody says we lost and the Belgiums won, as
simple as that.

T_

ps do you still have that walking stick????

    
    re .42
    
    You're right . The Brazilian referee was bad . Without him it would
    have been 3-0 instead of 1-0 . references : Red card for De Goej , all 
    the typical Holland so called "professional",dirty,sneaking faults
    ( compare the high number of official faults from Holland vs Belgium) .
    Holland digged their own grave , they should have played football (or
    is/was it soccer ).
    
    Sorry for our goal keeper Preud'homme , but a goal keeper so far is
    still part of a team . Didn't Jongbloed and Van Breukelen saved Holland
    a couple of times in the glorie days of Holland .
    
    Ok , one more game to go for Holland and then they can pack their bags
    and go KLM .  
    
    BTW . After looking more than twenty times to the "De Wolf handball" ,
    I came to the conclusion that it was NOT a handball . So , I think it's
    a cheap excuse to hide the weaknesses of their own team .
    
    Bye , bye 
    
    Rik  

    Re: .58
    
>    Ok , one more game to go for Holland and then they can pack their bags
>    and go KLM .  
    
    
    This will certainly not be the case !
    
    
    The Dutch team are flying SABENA ;-())))
    
    
    Jerry.

re	.48

	...IF...Preudhomme didn't have this great game and
	...IF...Wouters used his right foot to clear the ball and
	...IF...The referree wasn't that bad
	...IF...
		we would have...

	that is probably a "fantasy" version of the match !

	Sure the Dutch had very good periods and they really hurt us after we
	scored but don't forget that ...IF... the Dutch would have scored we
	WOULD have seen a totally different game: Belgium attacking and Holland
	defending.

	Let's be realistic here: although the quality of the Dutch players is
	probably better (BTW that is why we are the underdog), the Belgians 
	played an intelligent game which was much more a team effort than a 
	one man show !

	Anyway, I sincerely hope the Dutch will go through and who knows,
	maybe you'll get your revenge in the final ?

re	.50
	De Goey admitted handball in a television interview after the match!!!

	Rik
    

RE: Holland qualifying.

	I've seen both Moroccan games and they were unlucky both times. They 
deserved at least a draw against Belgium and only let the Saudi's win through 
a stupid penalty, a horrendous keeping error, and even worse finishing.
	If Holland do win it will only be by the odd goal. Any way I still 
haven't forgiven Wouters for rearranging Gascoigne's face. (Although I'm sure 
lots of others would like to do it)

Andy

    RE.58
    About taking KLM: Why, where's the second round match?
    If we will meet Belgium again this WC, we're gonna get our revenge.
    
    RE.60
    Belgium attacking and Holland defending? Are you kidding? We got at
    least as many good chances as you did.
    
    About the excuse to hide their own weaknesses: Bull!
    What weaknesses? We played great. Only thing might be the scoring.
    We should have put away at least 2 chances. But then again, against
    another goalie we would have. Preud'homme is just a very good goalie,
    probably the best around. And I'm not just saying that because we lost.
    
    Marcel

>      <<< Note 383.57 by UTROP1::JANSEN "Reading Blondes have more fun" >>>
>
>
>ps do you still have that walking stick????

Hi Ton,

What walking stick? What ARE you talking about?!

g

rep -1

Grahame,

why regret?? the notes tournament was great wasn't it?!?!?!?!? we should
have something simular again before everybody is gone.

I would be more than happy to arrange something in Holland so maybe we can
get other countries as well, so far it has only be the Dutch and the Brittish.


T_

    There could be a team from Germany also ... but they may be mostly
    scumbag contractors.
    

    for all who don't know the Dutch way of supporting a team:
    
    if the team wins: WE hebben gewonnen   (WE win!)
    
    if not:           ZE hebben verloren   (THEY lost!)

Hi Ton,

Brilliant idea - I'll come. Though by then I'd probably need a wheelchair 
instead of a stick.

But be careful about organising 5-a-sides - you'll get all those whingeing 
'Swiss' coming in here moaning about not being invited, or it's too far to 
travel etc.

grahame (Taking cover . . .)

    Grahame,
    
    We whining "Swiss" would love to come along. We never miss an opportunity
    to whine with our fellow "Europeans". In fact, just last weekend some of 
    us whiners were involved in a 6-a-side tournament near Bern. Among the
    opposition were a team called "The Welsh Wizards" from Cardiff, and 
    another team made up of guys from London and Brimingham. It was nice to
    have another team of English-speakers there. Luckily JBG was at hand to
    translate for the Cardiff boys ! (Otherwise, they would have had
    problems, not speaking German or English ;-)).
    
    So Ton, if you can get something organised, I'm sure we could come
    along and join in the drinking, errrr, I mean football !
    
    Jerry.
    
    P.S. Don't forget your shin-pads Grahame, we don't want you whining
    about your cuts and bruises ;-))))
    

                                                                          
>              -< Way of thinking of the average Dutch supporter >-
>
>    for all who don't know the Dutch way of supporting a team:
>    
>    if the team wins: WE hebben gewonnen   (WE win!)
>    
>    if not:           ZE hebben verloren   (THEY lost!)
    
    I'm told that the heartbreaks of the Dutch and the attitudes of their
    players (re: the defection of Gullit) and fans make them the Boston Red
    Sox of football.  If that's the case, and in deference to my heritage,
    they _must_ be my adopted side!  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

I can't believe my eyes never new that there were so many Belgium people
in Digital, they probably are all crwaling out of their closets where they
will return after the WC.

Grahame and other,

You are on. I'll check with big man Jan M. 'cause he's the man here who's
nows everyone needed to get this thing off.


T_

I've just heard that Ruud Gullit will hold a pressconference on thursday. 

    >>> I can't believe my eyes never new that there were so many Belgium
    >>> people in Digital, they probably are all crwaling out of their closets 
    >>> where they will return after the WC.
    
    That's right , we like to keep a low profile, maybe you should take
    some lessons...
    

    .72: Good one.

rep -1

Don't think so I'm here and I'm here to stay I don't crawl back after Holland
looses or when the WC is over, you and most of you countrymen will!

T_

    RE.a few back
    It's always 'we'. WE won, WE lost.
    About Gullit not coming along, that doesn't only happen in out country:
    What about the 5 Russian players, or the goalie from Kameroen?
    Or Laudrup in '92?
    
    You Belgians always put yourself in the underdog role, cause that way,
    if you win, you are the 'hero's', and if you lose, you were the
    underdogs, right? WRONG!!
    
    I'd love to see the Belgium team play Ireland in the next round, and
    Brasil after that. Might be good for your underdog feelings. :)
    
    Marcel

    Holland beat Morroco 2-1.
    
    Saudi Arabia was beating Belgium 1-0. (Can anyone comfirm if this is
    the final).
    
    If Saudi Arabia wins then Holland wins the group, Saudi takes second
    and Belgium takes third.  
    
    What a twist!!!
    
    Carlos

>    If Saudi Arabia wins then Holland wins the group, Saudi takes second
>    and Belgium takes third.  
    
    Yes, it's official as those scores held up.  Holland gets Ireland, 
    Saudi gets Sweden, and Belgium most likely gets Argentina, as it's 
    now looking good for Russia (over Bulgaria).
    
    
    glenn
    

I will enter a note before our 'friends' the Dutchies start their remarks. Yes, we 
were beaten. Yes, we didn't play that good. But my personnal opinion is that we've 
more chance now to go further in the WC. We're better of against the Germans or 
the Argentines. Now we discarted the Irish and the Brasilians. We've still a lousy 
feeling from what happened in Italy against the other islanders.

And Holland, remember the game in Eindhoven a couple of weeks ago. You're warned!


Paddy

    
    I dont think Ive seen a team miss as many chances as Belgium have in
    this competititon, their finishing in the game against the Saudi's was
    pathetic.
    
    Brilliant goal, the player picked the ball up about 10 yards outside
    his own penalty area and just ran at them.
    
    Great game...
    
    Dave...

    I'm a Brit in Utrecht, the Netherlands and I just want to publicise the
    scenes of jubilation here last nite.
    
    I've been in Sheffield when my team Wednesday won the League Cup a couple 
    of years ago and I've been in Stuttgart when VfB won the Bundesliga, and 
    I've seen things on telly. IMHO the Number 1 mad supporters are the Turks. 
    However, the Dutch must be a close second. There was shouting, singing, 
    hooting, laghing, color, milling throngs, etc, etc. What struck me was how
    fervent it all was AND how long it lasted.
    
    What will happen if Holland reach the final!?
    
    Simon

rep .78

Eindhoven game? Oh yeah we beat Hungary there with 6 or 7 goals!

I was already in here this morning but decided not to enter anything. I didn't
see the Belgium game so I can't comment on that, only saw the SA goal and that
was brilliant. Ofcourse I watched the Holland - Marocco game and it was
horrible, we played even worst than against the Saoudies.

Conclusion:

Holland played two crap games and won both, played one good game and lost,
ironicly wouldn't you think.

Now the Irish on Monday, will be a very hard game and a score-line of 1-0
or 0-1. Everyone in Holland likes the Irish so if they win probably most
of the country will root for them in the quarters.

T_

    
    	Belgium v Saudi Arabia was a great game, real end-to-end stuff,
    but, as someone already mentioned, the Belgium finishing was
    appaulling. Even Jerry would have scored given all those simple
    chances! 8-)
    
    JBG
    
    Ps. looking forward to Saudi vs Sweden.

>>Now the Irish on Monday, will be a very hard game and a score-line of 1-0
>>or 0-1.

Have to agree with this assessment

>> Everyone in Holland likes the Irish so if they win probably most
>>of the country will root for them in the quarters.

You'll be glad to hear that the sentiment is reciprocated! Nearly everyone
here will cheer for Holland if we go out (and hopefully we won't). This
happened in Euro '88. The best post-match atmosphere I ever experienced was
in Italia '90 after the 1-1 draw between Ireland and Holland, which qualified
us both.

Great crack, great teams, and supporters who can take a beating as well as
enjoy winning.

Michael.

Only saw the extended highlights of the Saudi v Belguim game... but great
entertainment - could quite easily have been 7-6, instead of 1-0. The Saudi's
are great going forward, but defend way too deep (centre backs on the 6 yard 
box) and that gives the opposition loads of chances. Belguim missed loads of 
chances but played better against the Saudi's than the Dutch - I don't think 
they'll miss those chances in the next game. Oh, yeah... what a brilliant goal,
what if that had been a Brazillian!?

Norman 

    
    The loss off Belgium against Saudi Arabia is a typical punishment that
    all teams who play defensive (=boring) football should get (like Norway
    flying home). Football is about scoring goals, thus offensive by
    nature, comprende ?
    
    Gerrit

    
    Wait a minute: Belgium did not play defensively versus S. Arabia
    
    Moreover the goal they got was a counter attack goal, more likely to
    be scored by a defensive side.
    
    PYB

    Belgium had 25 shots on goal... according to the commentator,
    
    no too bad for a defensive team!
    
    Jim.

    
    >>Belgium did not play defensive.....(maybe not so much against Saudi,
    but overall they are)
    
    Why was the manager afraid to put in an extra offensive player, when
    they got 1-0 behind...?
    
    Gerrit 

                     <<< Note 383.87 by XSTACY::JDUGGAN >>>
                                -< 0 out of 25 >-

>    Belgium had 25 shots on goal... according to the commentator,
 

  Which of course is 7 more than England managed when they beat West Germany
  in the 1966 World Cup Final.


  J Motson

    
    ....what...over 120 minutes...
    
     

Whoever suggested Belguim played defensively against Saudi is talking
nonsense (IMO). They certainly had enough forwards on the pitch, and attacked,
which is why the Saudi's kept catching them on the break... if they had been
more defensive they probably would have got at least a draw, and won the group..
all credit to both teams for an entertaining game.

Norman

    
    Any money the criticiser(sp?) is from that tulip fatherland, Holland.
    They don't those chocolate makers you know.
    
    Tony
    
    

    re WAY back
    
    we may be scumbag contractors, but we can't play football either.
    
    Can we come ?
    
    Heiko (and others)
          (presumably)

    
    What about the next coming game in the 1/8 final : BELGIUM - GERMANY 
    Maybe a change for the frustrated Weber to show what he's really good
    in ... scoring . Could be a fine , normal European game in more normal
    weather conditions . Anyway Degryse won't play (injured) . Also rumours
    about a fight between Degryse and Weber , because Degryse doesn't like
    to play with Weber in the same team (what will he do next season when
    they become teammates at Anderlecht ?) .
    
    And what about MARADONNA . I heard on the radio that he claims NOT
    GUILTY . They should know better ...
    
    Rik 

    I'd fancy Belgium to win this one. I think Weber will
    eventually find the net and I think the Belgian's will
    be even more determined after their bad result against
    Saudi Arabia. 
    
    3-1 to Belgium,
    
    Jim.

    
    	Maradonna claims that one of the barmen in the Dallas Hilton must
    have spiked his drinks. The head barman, one P. Shilton says this is
    rubbish - it must have been the hand of God! 8-)
    
    JBG

    
    I don't see more than two goals scored in total. 
    I don't even see one team scoring two goals. 
    Heiko
    
    

Reuter report

SAUDIS SET FOR $267,000 BONUS FOR CUP WINS

RIYADH, June 30 (Reuter) - Saudi Arabia, whose 1-0 victory over Belgium made
them the first Arab side to reach the last 16 of the World Cup, are to
receive nearly $267,000 in bonuses from a businessman.

Soccer sources said rich Saudi businessman Mahmoud Saeed was to give the team
500,000 Saudi riyals ($133,000) for Wednesday's stunning victory over the
experienced Belgians and the same amount for beating Morocco 2-1.

The amount is for the whole team. Reports in the United States have said the
Saudi players reputedly earned themselves up to $100,000, plus a Mercedes
each, for qualifying for the finals.

The official Saudi Press Agency said Prince Faisal Bin Fahd Bin Abdel-Aziz,
who heads the Saudi Football Federation, had ordered that the players'
victory bonuses be doubled.

But it did not say what the bonuses were for the victory, which brought
thousands of jubilant Saudi fans onto the streets of Riyadh, celebrating
throughout Wednesday night and blocking the traffic in the desert kingdom's
capital city.

"This triumph crowns the efforts of our team. The Saudi side has set an
example for Arab football even though it is playing (in the World Cup finals)
for the first time," said Youssef Mohammad, an Egyptian in his mid-30s
working as a salesman.

"I was expecting a draw but with the last few minutes it became clear we were
going to win," said Mohammad Dursuri, a student.

London bookmakers, who quoted the Saudis at 500-1 before the tournament, cut
them to 40-1 after Wednesday's win. Betting is banned in Saudi Arabia, which
applies strict Islamic law.

    >Maradonna claims that one of the barmen in the Dallas Hilton must have
    >spiked his drinks. The head barman, one P. Shilton says this is rubbish
    >- it must have been the hand of God! 8-)
    
    While I'm sorry the whole thing happened, I have to say that this
    brought a smile to my lips...