Conference trucks::football;1

    I read something very similar in the Standard a few weeks back. 
    Very depressing to find that ideas such as the "percentage game"
    and the minimal move attack are given creedence by certain members
    of the FA and clubs in this country. But this is'nt exactly new is 
    it? 
    
    What is, is the fact that the FA is now recognising that the future 
    does'nt appear to be too bright for English/British football as the 
    amount of flair players we're producing is on the wane. Which is 
    understandable given the "success at the expense of flair approach"
    adopted by some. I think it'd be fair to say that as football produces
    less of the Greaves, Charltons, Bests etc then that's obviously going 
    to be reflected in future football generations. I mean, did'nt you
    used to run out after "The Big Match" and try and put what you'd seen 
    in to practice? I remember being at pains trying to perfect a decent
    banana kick after I'd seen the Brazillians doing this on "On the Ball".
    There's always going to be the gifted ones, the Gazza's and the Giggs'
    but as far as I can see from my regular doses of "The Match" the skill
    standards are being mugged by general athleticism and playing to a plan
    the team way. 
    
    That classic "Times, they are a changin" allusion was dug up in the form 
    of kids not playing footy on street corners as much as they used to. 
    Quite. But there's a host of reasons for that, it being too bl**dy 
    dangerous for a start, and the emergence of the computer or games console 
    as an alternative home entertainment. Could go on about changing social
    values but this is'nt exactly "The New Statesman" is it?
    
    Anyway, the Standard article did imply that within a matter of years
    English football at European and International level would be reduced
    to that of a second class footballing nation. I think we're there
    already. 
    
    Barry.

	30+ years since Hungary took England apart, and we still haven't
	got the point.

	If you can get hold of the book "The Game" by Ken Dryden, which is
	about North American ice hockey,you will find some interesting
	parallels.

	The ice hockey equivalent of the big hoof upfield is "dump and rush".
	This compensates for the diluted level of talent available.
	However, when a team of NHL players came up against a Soviet team
	which played the passing game, they were unpleasantly surprised.

	In both cases, the belief that "if it always worked before we just
	have to do it better" and a shortage of skilled players is a common
	factor.

	Tony

    I wonder if the current style of play is as a result of what we, the
    fans, will tolerate.  Could we really stand/sit on a freezing January
    afternoon and watch the style of football employed in, for example,
    Italy, with lots of people standing in line short passing to each
    other, while the opposition blockade their goal. Italian League
    football is littered with 0-0 draws, or 1-0 wins... did we really enjoy
    the style of football used by bayern Munich during their domination of
    Europe in the 70's ??.
    
    We can still produce good players and games, but the strength of the
    tactics seem to stifle them. The big decision we have to make is
    whether we want continued success in Europe at club level and at international
    level by being technically and tactically better, or continuing the way
    we are ie technically and tactically inferior, but a hell of a lot
    better and exciting to watch.
    I personally am interested to see how France perform in Sweden 92, as I
    hope they can prove that good exciting attacking football can also be
    successful.
    
    Cheers
    Paul 

  
    The problem with the Brasilian style football is that we, the fans,
    miss out on great goals such as the one scored by Daley (SP?) for 
    Villa, against Man City I think it was, 2 weeks ago. Goals like that 
    only happen in the English league.
    
    As I recall, the great Liverpool teams of the past dominated European
    football because they had players with the skill to make the short
    pass as well as the long ball and the brains to known which to use in
    a given situation.
    
    JC
    
    
    

	The latest issue of "When Saturday Comes" contains a letter, which
expounds the theory that if Glenn Hoddle or ( insert player from "Big 5" club )
hits a 60 yard pass, its "artistry", if however, a "smaller" team does its
"Route One".


	Funny old world innit?


        Stuart

    Re-1
    
        It comes down to how many times teams hit 60 yard Passes(or Punts
    in some cases) during a game.
     In some cases,its the only way teams know how to play,the ball is
    punted in the general direction of the opposing penalty area hoping the 
    6ft+ striker will get on the end of it.Other teams pass it when the
    ball is on,depending on how your team plays you can read what you like
    into it.
    
    Dave...

    There is a difference between a Glenda "60 yard pass" and the
    percentage tactics of say Becks' Cambridge or any other "route
    one" merchants. If I remember rightly Glenda's long balls (excuse
    me) were usually intelligently placed and not just a thump up
    the field and hope for the best exercise. Brady was also a dab
    hand at the "beautiful" long ball. So there.
    
    Barry. 

	I agree with Barry (re -1). There is a difference between a long pass a 
donkey hoof. The problem could be that a flat back four gets caught out (
sometimes ) by the big kick and rush, especially if one of the attackers has 
real pace. 

Jim

    
    	Anyone who has seen Hoddle or some such hit one of those majestic
    	60 yard passes *knows* it wasn't a hopeful punt. The likes of
    	Hoddle seldom appear and thrive in the English league simply 
    	because of the pressures put on them to "work" and "tackle". If
    	Glen had gone to the continent � la Brady he would have been
    	equally appreciated for those passes and his style of play.
    
    	The route 1 approach often brings results in the lower leagues
    	because defences are not skilled enough to deal with this line
    	of attack. The likes of Milan, Real, Barca, Red Star etc. would
    	still cope with Cambridge and the like because of the abilities
    	of their players to adapt. In the English 3rd division two huge
    	forwards and a route 1 approach wins games and hence keeps fans
    	and more importantly Chairmen happy, thus keeping managers in
    	gameful employment. Rarely is this technique successful at a high
    	level for very long, as Wimbledon have discovered.
    
    	There has to be a place in the game for many styles and tactics,
    	some more pretty to watch than others. True class will shine
    	through in the end, but may take the odd set-back on the way.
    
    	Andy.

    Humph!
    
    Yes, Glen Hoddle played 3 or 4 seasons for Monaco where his name is
    still remembered with tears, such an artist. And yes, his 60-yards
    attempts were passes, not punts. Platini was another of those who could
    change from short to long passing when needed, but only when needed.
    
    Re a few back and the scoreless draws in Italy: I think you went to
    sleep 10 years ago when catenaccio was the Sunday religion in Italy.
    The game has changed a lot since the foreigners have swarmed that
    country. Ever watched a Milan, Napoli or Samp game on TV or, even better,
    live at a ground? The skills are incredible.
    
    Before hammering worn-out clich�s you'd better check your facts.
    
    As for myself I am a great believer of cultural differences. Afternoon
    tea, Yorkshire pudding and the long ball belong to Britain as much as
    back-heel passing belongs to Brazil. So what? I have been witness to
    fantastic English League games and crappy ones, same in France, in
    Italy or anywhere else in the world.
    
    Back to more "technical" speech. I seriously believe that the weather
    conditions prevalent in Britain explain the long ball tactics to a
    point. On a muddy pitch, short passing is not easy, dribbling ditto,
    one-twos are risky etc. A high ball is more convenient.
    
    On the dry pitches of Southern Europe it's the contrary. Short play is
    efficient because the green is fast. Also, the physical ability of a
    British (Danish, Icelandic, etc.) is different. Taller players, not so
    much at ease close to earth and better in the air. In the South,
    shorter people, lower centre of gravity etc. make it easier for the
    short-passing game.
    
    When physical ability and technique are combined you get the best.
    Liverpool of more successful years, Ajax, today's France, Milan a couple
    years ago, etc. When only physique prevails you get Wimbledon and when
    it's only technique you get Columbia.
    
    Ciao amici
    �JF?                        

    
    	re .11..
    
    	Excellent note JF..
    
    	Andy.

    re .11
    Some good points JC.
    
    What about Cameroon....physically strong, good skill, but tactically
    incredibly poor...result good entertaining football (with too many rash
    tackles), poor defending and they wont win anything.
    Tactics seem to be winning things more and more these days....which is
    why I want to see an exciting attacking team like France do well in
    Sweden92.  I see that if UEFA decide that USSR cannot compete in
    Sweden, then Italy will sneak their way in..look out for some
    spectacular diving, and incredible acting as they suffer terrible
    injuries, only to recover miraculously in 10 seconds, a la Klinnsman,
    who plays in Italy I believe.
    Paul
    
    ps Scotland will never win anything cos our managers thinks tactics are
    little white mints that come in a plastic box. 

    
    Liam Brady is making a brave attempt to bring back `real' football
    skills to Parkhead (remember the '67 European cup winning team ?)
    If only other Scottish managers would do likewise !
    

    If our style of football is that of the 'long ball' then why are we the
    most successful european country in club football?
    Only a handful of top flight clubs actually do play the long ball game,
    teams such as Liverpool and Nottingham Forest are renowned for their
    Brazilian like 'slow-build up play' and their pass and move attitude,
    just look at Liverpools success rate in domestic and european
    competitions over the past few years. Whilst we were not in european
    competitions the Italians dominated but just look at what happened in
    Rotterdam earlier this year!!!!!
    
    Enough of this bore, ENGLAND FOR THE '92 EURO' CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!!! 
    

    Re last.
    
    The way England played while qualifying, I would say that they have as
    much chance of winning it as Scotland have.  I assume that the
    Rotterdam incident you refer to was Man U winning the Cup winners Cup,
    against Barcelona who are Spanish, not Italian. I think the dominance
    of English clubs was when the English game was very physical and
    skillful.  I think the topic of this note was to discuss the decline in
    standards of skill in players, and the emergence of teams employing the
    long ball technique eg Cambridge and Wimbledon (although Im lead to
    believe the Dons have been changing their 'style' recently).  There are
    certainly fewer 'world class' players playing in the UK now, than at
    any time I can remember.
    
    Re a few back..JJ, Liam may be trying to resurrect 'real' football as
    you say, but one of the key reasons as to why Celtic were so succesful
    for a decade was that they had a particularly strong defence..unheard
    of from a Scottish team until Alex Ferguson whipped Aberdeen into
    shape, and onto Euro success.  If Liam is to suceed, and I sincerely
    hope he does, he has to look at his defence first.  The loss of Paul
    Elliot did not help of course, and Gary Gillespie is the fittest man in
    the hospital for most of the season. Liams track record of singings
    made so far have not been impresseive..nearly �2 million for GG and
    Cascarino is �2 million wasted on a lame duck and a carthorse.  There
    was no carthorse in the Celtic team playing real football ala 67..
    Simpson, Craig, Gemmell, Murdoch, McNeill and Clark, Johnstone,
    Wallace, Chalmers, Lennox and Auld....so it looks like Liam has a way
    to go yet.
    Orrabestfurranewyear.
    Paul
    

    Good Point, but I disagree, english clubs are still as physical if not
    more. The Italian league(Serie A) has players of great skill and
    tactical awareness, British players seem to want to compete with
    eachother more than foreign players, I think in this country everything
    in football is based around winning but in countries such as Spain and
    Italy football is seen as a form of entertainment rather than a sport
    so the players want to please the crowds with stylish football.
     

    
    I dunno, I think that in all countries where professional football is
    played, that all players want to win...its just that they go about it
    in different ways.  The pressure on teams and players in Italy for
    example are huge.  There are 3 daily papers in Italy totally dedicated
    to sports coverage, and they  have to fill the pages with sport and
    related topics. All the players there live under a microscope with
    their every move watched and documented....a bit like the English press
    whem Gazzamania was at its height.  I think perhaps the differentiator
    between countries is attitude, which may be a social thing, I dunno.
    JC stated in an earlier note that the climatic conditions may have
    something to do with it, warmer climates give playing surfaces for the
    passing game, ankle deep in mud does not.  Both Spanish and Italian
    football has made a welcome move back towards entertaining football
    but Im sure that their motive is to win first, entertain second, just
    as it is ours..with a few exceptions like West Ham and Swindon perhaps.
    
    Best Wishes for Christmas and the New Year
    
    Paul

    Compared with English players Italian professionals are under alot of
    pressure which is all part and parcel of being a footballer, I can
    understand why they get in trouble in nightclubs etc, people are
    getting at them all the time but sometimes the players bring trouble on
    themselves (JUST LOOK AT GAZZA). Alot of the best players seem to be in
    trouble alot (George Best etc), I think that to be a pro in the top
    flight nowadays you have to handle these kind of things.
    
    (WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH THE LONG BALL GAME!!!!!)
    
    

    
      Resurecting a old topic here, but
    
    I watched the U15 Schoolboys International on saturday, England v
    Germany. Although the result was a 0-0 draw, the game was very
    heartening to watch.
    
    England played well, with some style, flair and imagination. All of the
    players were comfortable with the ball ( even our centre backs, one of
    who could have been a young Paul McGrath), and were activly looking for
    it. English players were running at the German players, and sometimes
    beating them. They were ALL passing the ball confidently and
    competantly. Now, it wasn't quite Brazil out there, and the passing was
    at times, wayward and naive, but at least it appears that we are on the 
    right road forward.
    
    At half time there was a display by the youngest at this school of
    excellance doing ball control routines. Each youngster has a ball
    at his (or her) feet and were dribbling through set routines. I heard
    a reference to a 'Dutch Coach' who came over and instigated these
    routines.
    
    So, it appears the Lilleshalls route one approach is dead. I, for one,
    am glad.
    
    Wayne
    
    P.S. Blinder of a game played by Ray Clemence's son (left side midfield)
    

    >Now, it wasn't quite Brazil out there, and the passing was
    >at times, wayward and naive, but at least it appears that we are on the 
    >right road forward.   
    
    Well, let's hope so. 
    
    I certainly miss seeing those old schoolboy games
    on TV - even the 0-0 draws were far more entertaining than what the
    seniors  usually had to offer. Tactically, they seem naive, i.e. flat
    back, little midfield cover, gaping holes down the middle, but I always
    saw it as an indication of their desire to get forward; one of
    the first things that coaches seem to want to drum out of them.
    
    > Blinder of a game played by Ray Clemence's son (left side midfield)
    
    You should be wary of writing things like that in this notesfile - 
    guaranteed to rile the Oirish, you know.
    
    Unless the lad's name was Dermott, Fergus or Seamus, but I rather doubt 
    it... 
    
    Dom

    
    Schoolboy level teams always seem to hold a promise for the future.
    It's when they become seniors that coaches and managers reduce them to
    chess pieces. 
    I attended a couple of the U16 World Cup games when they were played in
    Scotland a couple of years ago. All the teams looked great and were
    very entertaining - even Scotland, who made it to the final to be
    beaten by a very old looking U16 Saudi Arabia team. While the Africans
    and S Americans seem to be able to retain that natural style of play,
    our (British) teams seem to get it knocked out of them.
    
    Archie
    

    The thing about England schoolboy international players is that they 
    very rarely become senior internationals - I think that Terry Venables
    was the last player to play at all levels for England.
    
    Why is this ?
    
    Is it because :-
    
    a) anyone who spends too long at Lilleshall has all the skill knocked 
    out of them so that they are less likely to land a league club place - I 
    think that the number of "graduates" from Lilleshall who land places in 
    league clubs is very small.
    
    b) league clubs want young players who commit to their club early, so
    that they can teach them what they want to.
    
    c) boys who mature early enough at 15/16 to be schoolboy internationals
    are passed physically by boys who mature later.
    
    d) boys who make it at schoolboy level think they have made it and stop
    trying.
    
    e) all of the above
    
    f) none of the above
    
    Terry

     re: 134.24
    
    >The thing about England schoolboy international players is that they 
    >very rarely become senior internationals - I think that Terry Venables
    >was the last player to play at all levels for England.
    
    This is a very interesting point. I remember a 16-year old Paul Rideout 
    scoring a hat-trick at Wembley against either Scotland or West Germany (I 
    forget which). No one could say that his career has lived up to
    expectations. 
    
    I also recall someone saying that the most "successful" product (so
    far) of the F.A. School of Excellence has been John Ebrell of Everton.
    The last time I saw him on TV (some time ago, admittedly), he looked to
    be a competent player - but nothing more. And the Everton supporters in
    this conference don't seem to be over-enthusiastic either. 
    
    Of the 6 explanations that you offered, I'd plump for c) more than any
    other, although I don't see Italy (where I'm based) as baing any better
    off in this respect. That said, they could (and often do!) offer the
    excuse that the numerous foreign imports suffocate the youngsters
    coming into the game.
    
    Dom

     re: last
        
    
    >This is a very interesting point. I remember a 16-year old Paul Rideout 
    >scoring a hat-trick at Wembley against either Scotland or West Germany (I 
    >forget which). No one could say that his career has lived up to
    >expectations. 
     
    Rideout scored a hat-trick against Scotland at Wembley at under-15
    level and his career has went down hill ever since (even had a spell
    with the huns).
    
    However that game finished up 5 - 4 to Scotland with a certain Paul
    McStay scoring 2 goals. McStay captained the side and has gone on to do
    so at every other international level.
    
    He has now played for his country over 60 times and looks set to become
    the most capped Scottish player of all time.
    
    Quite a good advert for schoolboy international football me thinks.
    
    Martin SQFCSC.....
    
       

    re. 25
    
    Paul Rideout played for Swindon then went to Aston Villa. from there he
    spent several years in Italy - Bari I believe. He's also played for
    Glasgow Rangers. I'm not sure where he is at the moment.
    
    The above is not a list of trivial clubs - well you may spot one.
    
    jbb

    re-1
    
     Isn't he at Everton nowadays???
    
      John
    

    re: .27
    
    Rideout's also played for Southampton, incidentally. Rideout wasn't a
    great success in Italy, although I recall both he and Cowans being
    unfortunate with injuries.
    
    I take your point that all the clubs you listed are (more or less) in the 
    top flight. Still, I would argue that a youngster who scores a hat-trick 
    for England U.15s at Wembley would surely entertain ideas about one day
    getting a full cap. His overall career is certain respectable in
    absolute terms - but I'm sure that both Rideout and those around him
    will be a trifle disappointed, especially when compared with someone
    like Ian Wright who came into the game very late, after being written
    off at schoolboy level. 
    
    Still, there's time for him (Rideout) yet (isn't there?).
    
    Dom
    
    P.S. Fascinating topic, but I've suddenly realised it's got nowt to do
    with the base note. Apologies! 
    off
    
    

    ..just to drag it out further.
    
    Paul Rideout - He also spent three wonderful months at Notts County ;-)
    
    At least we made a quarter of a million profit on him !
    
    Rob

    
    He played centre half for Rangers in a couple of games and looked better
    there than up front.

 Forget about Paul Rideout, after last night, I think that the sooner the

 long ball strategy is dropped, the better. It's not that it's ineffective, it's

 just that surely premier league players have more ability and imagination

 than just to thump a ball forward and hope for the best. 

	Watching the game last night ( ROI vs NI), I was disgusted. The amount

 of long balls, in windy conditions, was ridiculous. How the hell do you 

 expect to pick out a player with a long ball in gale force winds. Surely 

 shorter, more precise passes were the order of the day. 

	Being a ROI supporter, it was fine at the start of the Charlton era

 to win anyway possible, but now that he has an establised squad, I do wish

 he would change his tactics. I think it was the Brazillians that aptly named

 the long ball, " Football for Angels ". So now that it's futility has been

 seen, not only in ROI but also in UK, I do hope that a lesson has been learned

 and that Long ball tactics will go the way of the dodo.


		Tim.....   

    
    I've just realised I had my note in 134.29 set hidden.
    
    At last, some recognition of my amazing command of the English
    language....
    
    Thanks
    
    Paul