Conference thebay::joyoflex

    ... and of the same stripe as the objects which are sold by the Guinea,
    STILL...
    
    Inextinguishable snobbery, sez I.  Whoops, I meant "sez The I."
    

    Re .0 - matter of style.  Imagine a market-maker on his soapbox trying
    to make himself distinctive above all the hubbub in an open outcry
    trading pit.
    
    	"pork bellies...., cocoa...., and GOLD - $394 the ounce!"
    
    Sort of a definitive, no-nonsense finish.  You find the same style in
    other British running commentary such as that employed by auctioneers
    or racing broadcasters.
    

    Is this so hard?  "The" is a definite article.  "$400 the ounce" is one
    of the ways provided in English to say what is being said.  "$400 per
    ounce" is another. "The" is slightly idiomatic; "per" is slightly
    precise.
    
    As for guinea, I have never bought anything from a posh British store,
    but isn't charging by the guinea not only a way of sounding fancy, but
    also a way of tacking an extra shilling per pound into the price?
     

    Ayup, that was my impression...  Never having actually shopped in Bond
    Street, I can only cite Charles Dickens and Ian Fleming as authorities...
    

    If they charge by the guinea, pay with pigs.

    I knew that this conversation would converge.  As stated earlier, the
    style is very "market-like".  Also, the practice of charging guineas
    for objects is still carried out at auctions where the shilling premium
    on THE pound gives a very handy 5% auctioneer's commission (on the 
    seller's base price). - Nobody feels cheated that way.  Seller expects
    n-pounds, buyer expects n-guineas, auctioneer n-shillings.  
    

    .5
    
    Norman, you really should get out of the railway freight business.

    As a Brit, I am trying to maintain a stiff upper lip whilst seeking
    clarification on the intent of previous strings.....
    
    Are we saying that Americans (and presumably others) whoch wish to
    sound `posh' imitate what they (mistakenly IMHO) believe to be a
    British trait and say "$nnn THE ounce" or charge/pay guineas?
    
    Or are we saying that Brits are snobs :*)
    
    Jon
    
    p.s. Britain went to a decimal coinage system in the seventies and the
    shilling ceased to be legal tender shortly thereafter, though this
    still doesn't prevent auctioneers from charging guineas  :*)

    >shilling ceased to be legal tender shortly thereafter,
    
    I visited Britain in 1987 and still occasionally received shillings and
    two-shilling pieces in change.  I thought nothing of it because they
    mapped onto the values that they were used for.  Were they not legal?
    
    -- Norman Diamond
    (former owner of the personal name "This note is illegal tender" :-)

    The shilling qua shilling disappeared shortly after decimalisation. 
    The shilling, florin and half crown coins continued to be legal tender,
    with an implied overstrike value in decimal money.
    
    In fact there was a transition period (I forget how long) when both
    forms of money were fully legal tender.  Question - how much 'new'
    money do you use for something priced as 8 old pence?  ISTR that all
    the prices ended up rounded up to the next half new penny (which was
    equal to 1.2 old pence).
    
    	Ian

    	It was a legal requirement that all prices should be rounded down
    where there was any difference, but many shopkeepers didn't know this.
    
    	When I was born my grandfather decided that 3 guineas was the
    correct amount for a birthday present, and would send me a cheque for
    that amount each birthday. After a number of years the bank persuaded
    him that they *really* didn't like cheques written in guineas, so he
    would write "Three pounds and three shillings". Years later again they
    pointed out to him that shillings were no longer a standard part of the
    British currency system, and he took to writing cheques for "Three
    pounds and fifteen pence", but I am sure he always thought of it as
    "Three guineas".
    
    	In France the habit is even more persistant. It must be about 30
    years ago that the French changed from the "old Franc" to the "new Franc"
    but for anything over about 100.000 FF (lottery winnings, house prices)
    they still tend to quote values in old Francs.

    Re .11:
>    	In France the habit is even more persistant. It must be about 30
>    years ago that the French changed from the "old Franc" to the "new Franc"
    
    	Make that 36. If I remember well the change occurred in 58 (and
    yes, I was old enough to notice; well, barely old enough...).
    			Denis.

	Re les "francs anciens".  - Just yesterday I was having
	a discussion with a carpenter (who was a good deal younger
	than me and hence most unlikely to have ever seen an old franc),

	We were discussing the replacement value of a piece of
	furniture which I once paid a lot of money for.  He questioned
	me whether I meant "francs anciens".  I detected from
	his tone that he thought that I was ;

EITHER	a) grossly exaggerating the price and his "francs anciens"
	   comment was an idiomatic quip to bring me back to earth.

OR	b) A foreigner and probably confused (and possibly even OLD!)
	   and had made a genuine mistake.

	I figured that it was option b) but given that the
	scale of conversion was 100:1, how could there ever have
	been that much scope for confusion?   

	Is there some clearly understood idiomatic meaning to the 
	use of "franc ancien" among (non-aged) French speakers? 

    Re .13: Some say specifically "centimes" rather than "anciens francs",
    but they are a minority. Otherwise, I'm not aware that there is a way
    to tell except that the 100:1 scale makes most errors unlikely.
    			Denis.