Conference thebay::joyoflex

    What - you mean to say that you don't take walnuts with your after
    dinner port?  How standards are slipping in the colonies these days!
    
    ;-)
    
    Jon

    Okay, for those of us who have never seen a seven course meal,
    what are the courses?
    
    					andrew

    I didn't know there was a limit. We all know what the Romans did to
    keep making space. The people of Normandy have a more civilized
    solution to the problem of making space (a hole, or `trou'). `Le
    trou normand' is a very small glass of Calvados drunk ever so slowly
    between courses.
    
    Re standards in the colonies:
    I hear they even pass the port anti-clockwise in some places, or - worse 
    still - to anyone who wants it, wherever they're sitting.
    [If xe = he or she and xir = his or her, what's the contracted form of h/she
    is?]
    
    b

    1	Canapes
    2	Hors d'oeuvres
    3	Soup
    4	Fish
    5	Sorbet
    6	Entree
    7	Dessert
    8	Cheese
    9	Fruit
    10	Nuts
    11	Coffee

    I've read about seven course dinners, but I've never read what those
    courses comprise.  I'm sure we could construct a meal with any number
    of courses we wish.  What I'm interested in are the components of
    what was called the seven course dinner.  I'm asking for information,
    not speculation.  If you don't know, don't guess.
    
    					andrew

.4 must be omitting something - there's no "main course" (which
is, naturally enough, after the "entree").


Also, there needs to be a sweet course,  as well as a dessert;
these are different although I can't quite recall the difference
now.

And then there's the "savoury" course which comes somewhere
around the tail end of the meal, but I think that's only
if you're male - the womenfolk have by then withdrawn.

    Re .3:
>    solution to the problem of making space (a hole, or `trou'). `Le
>    trou normand' is a very small glass of Calvados drunk ever so slowly
>    between courses.
    	Just one small nit here: the "trou normand" is indeed a small glass
    of Calvados, but you're supposed to drink it straight. Its purpose is
    for the alcohol in it to dissolve the fat in your stomach, so that you
    feel ready for the next course. If you drink it slowly, the alcohol
    will evaporate before reaching your belly...
    			Denis.

    re: .2
    
    Andrew, my vote would be:
    
    	1	Hors d'oeuvres
    	2	Soup
    	3	Fish
	4	Sorbet
	5	Entree
    	6	Dessert
    	7	Cheese (normally fruit is available here)
    
    I would not count pre- or post-prandial confections or beverages as a
    course.  I don't know if this is technically correct, but then I don't
    know what the culinary equivalent is of the Academie Francaise!
    
    Jon

    Re the last few: "Entr�e" litterally means "entrance" or "input" and
    should therefore be placed just after the "Hors d'�uvre" which is
    supposed to be the first dish (its name implies, although it's no
    longer the case, that it is not yet part of the meal). The soup comes
    just after the "Hors d'�uvre" or, more often, simply replaces it when
    it's a souper (= supper and implies evening) rather than a diner
    (=dinner and used to imply midday meal, but now that soup is not as
    often present as it once was, it usually implies evening in France -
    not in Quebec, though -). Then comes the "entr�e", sometimes followed
    by an "entremet" (kind of like a dessert, but between two of the main
    courses, it has all but disappeared nowadays, the name means it's a
    pause between two dishes). Afterward comes the main course, followed by
    salad, then cheese, then dessert. I did not count if that makes seven
    courses. I don't know where the notion of seven rather than any other
    number comes from, anyway.
    			Denis.

    In the UK, generally, 'dinner' is the main meal of the day.
    
    If 'dinner' is eaten in the middle of the day, then 'supper' is eaten
    in the evening.
    
    If 'dinner' is eaten in the evening then 'lunch', or 'luncheon', is
    eaten in the middle of the day -- 'supper' may also be eaten, in which
    case it is taken just before bedtime.
    
    Nick

    Re order of courses:
    There's a lot of variation between countries. For example, whatever's
    `correct' in France for the order cheese/dessert or dessert/cheese,
    the reverse is `correct' in England.
    
    Re: le trou normand
    I bow to local knowledge. I've been to Normandy but could never afford
    one of the menus that involved a trou normand. For the manner of
    drinking I was recounting the childhood reminiscence of someone on the
    radio - and either I heard wrong or she remembered wrong.
    
    Re: dessert/fruit
    In the one formal/celebratory/dj etc dinner I've had, dessert _was_
    fruit. There was also a sweet course, called `pudding' (not necessarily
    puddingy).
    
    b

  What a string of notes.  Just in time for our celebration of Thanksgiving.

  Don't over eat. 8^)

    Perfect timing...
    
    I'm reading JOYOFLEX in local time, and we're in the final stages of
    preparation for our Thanksgiving meal.  Thank GOODNESS the liquor
    stores are still open here in San Francisco, so I can go out and get
    some Calvados... :-)
    
    Trou story!
    
    Thanks all!!  Great string.
    

For the ancient Romans it was "From eggs to apples".

___Pete

    I couldn't find anything on a "seven-course dinner," but Mrs. Beeton's
    Book of Household Management included a number of suggested menus with
    lots and lots of courses. [For bonus points: describe the difference
    between a course and a remove.] Here's one recommended for a November
    dinner for 12:
    
    		Hare soup.	Julienne soup.
        Baked cod.		    Soles a la Normandie.
    
    			******
    
    	Riz de Veau aux Tomates. 	Lobster patties.
    Mutton cutlets & soubise sauce. Cro�tades of marrow aux fines herbes.
    
    			******
    
    Roast sirloin of beef. Braised goose. Boiled fowls & celery sauce.
    		Bacon-cheek, garnished with sprouts.
    
    			******
    
    		Wild ducks.	Partridges.
    Apples � la Portugaise. Bavarian cream. Apricot jam sandwiches.
    	Cheesecakes. Charlotte � la Vanille. Plum-pudding.
    
    			******
    
    		Dessert & ices. ("dessert," according to the book,
    meant a variety of fruits (fresh and dried) and nuts).
    
    Miss Manners, aka Judith Martin, was asked by a Gentle Reader to name
    *all* the courses for a full formal dinner. She reported a minimum
    number of courses as:
    
    	1. Oysters or clams on the half shell.
    	2. Soup (each diner gets a choice of clear or thick)
    	3. Radishes/celery/olives/almonds
    	4. Fish.
    	5. Sweetbreads or mushrooms.
    	6. Artichokes, asparagus, spinach...
    	7. A roast (or joint) with a green vegetable.
    	8. Frozen Roman punch.
    	9. Game, w/salad.
    	10. Heavy pudding or a creamed sweet.
    	11. Frozen sweet.
    	12. Cheeses.
    	13. Fruits (fresh, crystallized, or dried).
    	14. Coffee, liqeuers, sparkling waters.
    
    So according to her, it should be "oysters to coffee" instead of "soup
    to nuts", give or take a course... ;-)
    
    -b

One of the courses that pleased me the most when participating in 
the occasional "degustation" at grand restaurants in France were
those wonderful tiny little things served between courses.  e.g.
a small spoon of homemade sorbet de bananes between soup and fish.

I think the gastronomes call this sort of culinary diversion an 
"amuse-geule".

    This is more like it -- these are some of the courses I had heard
    about (by the bye, sorbets, designed to cleanse the palate between
    courses, are obviously not considered courses themselves.)

	Soup (each diner gets a choice of clear or thick).
	Fish.
	A roast (or joint) with a green vegetable.
	Game, w/salad.
	Heavy pudding or a creamed sweet.
	Frozen sweet.
	Cheeses & Fruits (fresh, crystallized, or dried).
    
    The other thing I could never understand -- how could anyone have a
    different wine with each course and not get completely pie-eyed?
    
    					andrew
    

    Re .17: Pie-eyed-ness is relative, of course, but I've found that if
    one dines in an appropriately leisurely manner - taking, say, 2 1/2
    hours to complete the aforementioned courses - and if one doesn't
    drain every glass of wine to the dregs, it's possible to get through
    such a meal without falling down. (On the other hand, even if one isn't
    legally intoxicated by the end of such a repast, it's probably not a
    good idea to do any driving; just being so replete tends to make me
    very, very sleepy...)
    
    Ideally, one would enjoy such a feast at a friend's country house, or
    at a hotel where one had booked a room for the night, so that after
    dinner one could simply be poured into bed. ;-)
    
    -b

    "Ideally, one would enjoy such a feast at a friend's country house, or
    at a hotel where one had booked a room for the night, so that after
    dinner one could simply be poured into bed. ;-)"
    
    Sounds good; let's do it!  ;-)
    
    							Ann B.

    I read a reprinted ad last week wherein one was instructed to smoke a
    Camel after every single course.

    Sheesh, I heard that today was the beginning of deer season in MA, but
    I would have thought that Camels were more protected because of their
    value as desert transport.
    
    Wossamata U., all out of skeet?
    
    :-)
    

No thanks, they're too strong for me.  I only smoke monkeys.