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1055.1 | | MU::PORTER | datapanik | Tue Jul 06 1993 07:30 | 18 |
| There's an excellent book in the US called "Technobabble", which I'd
advise you to read. I'll try and remember to look up the ISBN for you.
--
There's one fairly obvious point about jargon, and that is that
some of it is necessary, and some of it isn't! As an example
of the former, consider trying to say "floating-point" without
being a jargonaut. You can supply your own examples of the latter!
--
With respect to "functionality" -- well, even better: some VMS
releases are described as "functional", and the others presumably
are not functional. This is commendably honest of the engineers,
don't you think? Somehow, though, I don't think that's what they
meant.
|
1055.2 | | SMURF::BINDER | Deus tuus tibi sed deus meus mihi | Tue Jul 06 1993 07:54 | 54 |
| Sometimes jargon is necessary because no word exists to describe
something; this is the way of all language. One example is the word
`glitch.' It originally meant an extremely short pulse of electrical
current or voltage; in a computer, a glitch is basically an event that
is too short in duration to elicit a proper response from a circuit
into whose input it is fed. Glitches cause flip-flops to fail to
switch or to switch at the wrong time. But the word `glitch' has been
adopted by the wider speaking public to mean something's going wrong, a
hitch in the progress of things. This sort of linguistic evolution is
normal and reasonable.
The use of words like `functionality' often comes about through a
speaker's lack of knowledge of proper usage; `function' or `feature' or
even `feature set' would work as well, but someone, sometime, didn't
know English well enough to know that, and the bastard word caught on.
This, too, while less acceptable to the linguistic purist, is also a
normal occurrence. Legal documents and government reports are well-
known users of big words that mean little or nothing; by this means
they gain the weight of legitimacy by impressing the reader with the
fact that there must be words the reader doesn't know. In order to
appear well-informed, people pick up these words, and the rest, as they
say, is history. Similarly, government reports often use circumocution
to gain points in the quest of ponderousness, and that as well is
picked up. One example is "at this point in time," which could quite
well be replaced with "now" or, to be more precise, "at this moment."
The US government is famous for such tricks, which were dubbed
"gobbledygook" by a commentator who was not amused. One of the most
asinine instances of gobbledygook appears in a report on human rights,
in which the phrase "unlawful deprivation of life" is used to mean
"killing."
The use of acronyms (and of much other jargon) is the natural result of
people's wish to expend as little effort as possible in communication.
(We are not living in classical Rome, where the highest skill to which
a man could aspire was to be a great orator, although there are a great
number of preachers who appear to think they are there.) It takes less
effort to say or write "DEC" than to say or write "Digital," so people
use the TLA (three-letter acronym). It has a side effect of being
apparently snappier, and often this kind of thing is picked up by
advertisers and marketers for that reason.
Another reason for the use of jargon is to form a group of insiders, a
clique; those not in the know can't understand what is being said and
are thereby excluded. As the Curmudgeon's Dictionary says:
jargon, n. A pseudo-language pertinent to a particular specialized
field of endeavor. Usually sadistically cryptic to the uninitiated.
I believe this sort of thing is relatively rare in industry, but it is
rampant among teenagers throughout the world.
I realize that this meandering reply has strayed from the specific area
of computerese (itself a made-up word), but the same trends and reasons
are behind all language change, regardless of its environment.
|
1055.3 | VV replies | RDGENG::OBRIENS | | Tue Jul 06 1993 08:57 | 39 |
| re .1 & .2
Thank you datapanik and Smurf for that. It's hopefully the start of
loads of info.
If that book Technobabble is written by one John A Barry, then I have a
copy beside me as I type. I recommend it to any cynic of the computer
lexicon.
On that point, I must agree that some jargon, slang or whatever you
like to call it, is relevent and useful within certain circles and
groups. What interests me is how this was introduced. Where do words
come from ?
There's an interesting conversation I had about a computer `bug'
recently. One theory is that bug originated from the word "buggered" -
I think that this suggests that it is of UK origin as I have never
heard the word bugger off an American tongue (correct me if I'm wrong)
Another more logical theory is that at one time in history, insects
used to get into the massive room-sized computers and screw up the
system - rather like a spanner in the works .
Any advance on two theories ?
Whatever, like glitch, bug and thousands of other words (half of the
English language) is an adaptation or branch off from another word.
I'm not against progress, but aren't there enough words now. Do we need
more ? Never mind the utilizationary kinds of words but at the last
count there were over 500.000 official (recognised words) and the
average person knows about 12.000 (UK figures).
What gets on my wick is the amount of junk flying about in the
language. I'm no purist, but people who deliberately think up verbose
words annoy me. There are a lot of these in this industry .
Keep writing
Regs, Sean
|
1055.4 | | CALS::DESELMS | A closed mouth gathers no feet. | Tue Jul 06 1993 09:16 | 5 |
| Speaking of "feature set", am I the only one who hates the term
"skill set" (often spelled "skillset".) I don't know why but it makes
me cringe every time I hear it.
- Jim
|
1055.5 | Don't call me Smurf. Please! :-) | SMURF::BINDER | Deus tuus tibi sed deus meus mihi | Tue Jul 06 1993 09:17 | 16 |
| When computers used relays for switching devices, it was a very real
phenomenon that an insect could cause a malfunction by dying between
the contacts of a relay. Hence the term.
These kinds of words come from wherever any word comes from. Someone
said or wrote it, someone else liked it. As for language's being
anything "sacrosanct," to be reserved for only utilizationary (egad!)
words, codswallop. Words communicate, and in the closed circles that
use jargons, their jargons communicate more effectively (efficiently,
perhaps?) than older, less precise or less directed language. I care
not one whit that there are 500,000 words, or a million, or however
many there really are. If a neologism is better (more meaningful or
more precise or, sometimes, more subtle in character) than the word or
phrase it replaces, then that's good. I object only to the creation or
adoption of words that are *not* better than those they shoulder out of
the mainstream, such as the aforementioned "functionality."
|
1055.6 | | PASTIS::MONAHAN | humanity is a trojan horse | Tue Jul 06 1993 09:20 | 23 |
| The original bug is reputed to have been found by Capt. Grace Hopper,
and was a beetle that was jammed against the read heads of a drum
memory, preventing correct reading. This was in the days when almost
the only application for computers was cryptography, and the president
of IBM was predicting that the world would never need more than 3
computers.
You can also find interesting comparisons in other languages. "bit"
is reputed to be a contraction of "binary digit", and French has "eb"
as a contraction of "element binaire". The only explanation I have seen
for "byte" is as a pun on "bit", and the French use "octet". This
latter gets quite interesting when you have to translate something
referring to 9-bit bytes into French ;-)
The French, of course, don't like to borrow words from other
languages, and while most languages use "computer" with minor
variations of spelling and accent, the French use "ordinateur".
A Swede told me that there was an attempt make Swedish as
independant, and the proposed Swedish for "volatile memory",
"non-volatile memory" became "chicken memory" and "horse memory"
when translated literally back into English. He said it didn't catch
on.
|
1055.7 | | VMSMKT::KENAH | Escapes,Lies,Truth,Passion,Miracles | Tue Jul 06 1993 09:21 | 23 |
| The English language is the most extensive language in history.
There are, as you said, somewhere in the neighborhood of half a
million words currently recognized and used in English. English
is the most powerful and flexible language ever.
Do we have enough words? That depends -- for what?
Do we need more? Perhaps? Sometimes we redefine old words
to have new meanings ("Gay," for example). Sometimes we adopt
words from other languages (In a recent US spelling contest, the
final two words were "enchilada" and "kamikaze"). Sometimes we
create new words ("laser," "morph," "lepton," "quark," and so on).
Is jargon necessary? Of course -- if it weren't, it wouldn't be used.
Do people "misuse" language? Of course -- all the time. However, I
have learned that I can't do anything about it, and if I try, I come
off as an arrogant snob.
What can I do? Use language wisely and well, and not worry about how
others use the language. English will survive them -- and me as well.
andrew
|
1055.8 | A bit, a byte, a munch | SMURF::BINDER | Deus tuus tibi sed deus meus mihi | Tue Jul 06 1993 09:36 | 15 |
| The French "ordinateur" is an eminently satisfactory word for the
machine. French, being a child of Latin, uses the very proper French
form of "ordinator," a Latin word meaning "one who sets things in
order." This is IMHO especially applicable because in most computer
applications today the operation of the machine, insofar as the actual
information presented to the user is concerned, is one of organizing
(numbers in a report, words in a WP document, messages in a mail file,
images on a screen).
In 1980 I designed a disk controller for the US Air Force. The system
manipulated 9-bit pieces of data arranged in 9-piece groups. We called
the 9-bit piece a munch and the 9-munch group a lunch. These words are
now official, as they were written into the specification. This, in
direct response to .0, is one way some computer jargon words have come
about: because someone had a sense of humor.
|
1055.9 | ordinateur | RDGENG::OBRIENS | | Tue Jul 06 1993 10:34 | 10 |
| re.8
I see the point in having a sense of humour; I've always wanted one.
Don't you think that words should be meaningful and reflect the action
or object that they are `describing'. I know that the track record for
this in English isn't great . Like new architecture, new words should
be clean and precise, uncluttered. How about taking a tip from the
French.
Sorry for calling you smurf......
|
1055.10 | | SMURF::BINDER | Deus tuus tibi sed deus meus mihi | Tue Jul 06 1993 11:13 | 32 |
| Re .9
> words should be meaningful and reflect the action or object that they
> are `describing'.
Not necessarily, not always. "Her azure eyes were twin limpid pools,
and he imagined them as windows upon her soul."
Would this be better rendered, "Her eyes, the blue of the clear sky at
noon, apeared to him as if they were two pools of water, clear and
simple, and he imagined that he could look through them into her soul."
Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on the poetic vision of the writer and
of the reader. The same concern applies to new architecture. Why
should it be clean and precise? There is equal beauty in the arches
and gargoyles and grotesques of a Gothic cathedral and in the
Guggenheim Museum; each appeals do different sensibilities.
If I call a particular piece of computer code spaghetti code, you know
what I mean. Why should I refer to it as "disorganized code full of
instructions that allow branching in no orderly manner?" If I call it
a hack or a kluge�, you know what I mean. Why should I call it "code
that has been thrown together or written just to get the job done
without regard to system or efficiency"?
Jargon serves a purpose. The phrase "spaghetti code" is particularly
descriptive, although it certainly is imprecise, and "hack" and "kluge"
are similarly imprecise. None of these is "clean and precise." But
they communicate. Q.E.D.
� Commonly misspelt "kludge," which anyone can see must rhyme with
"nudge," "budge,' "fudge," and "sludge."
|
1055.11 | Relax, the battle is over -- and the purists have been routed | VMSMKT::KENAH | Escapes,Lies,Truth,Passion,Miracles | Tue Jul 06 1993 11:13 | 17 |
| >Don't you think that words should be meaningful and reflect the action
>or object that they are `describing'.
To paraphrase Humpty Dumpty in "Through the Looking Glass...":
"Words mean exactly what I want them to mean." Lewis Carroll
made the humorous but telling point that there is NO connection
between a word and its meaning. All connections between word and
meaning are made by people who use the words.
The English langugae grows because it not only accepts new words and
new meanings, it -- actually, the people who speak it -- they embrace
new words: some good, some clumsy, many indifferent. English is a
mishmash of new and old words -- it is not, nor has it ever been clean,
precise, or uncluttered. That is its strength, and that is its glory.
The French are anal retentive when it comes to their language.
The language suffers as a result.
|
1055.12 | | SMURF::BINDER | Deus tuus tibi sed deus meus mihi | Tue Jul 06 1993 11:23 | 14 |
| > The French are anal retentive...
They are not alone. L'Acad�mie Anglaise has arrived, and its name is
BBC. :-)
As Andrew says, English's glory and strength lie in its myriad ways of
expression and in its mutability. Its weakness also lies therein,
because learning English is the bane of virtually all native speakers
of other languages. Its subtleties are often difficult to comprehend
if they are not second nature. Well, say I, that's too bad. You take
the good with the bad, and I think we're the better for English. Even
though I do from time to time rail at gross abuse of the language, yet
I revel in its freedom to grow. And in a sense, what is language
abuse, anyway, if not one of the mechanisms of evolution?
|
1055.13 | %^} | VMSMKT::KENAH | Escapes,Lies,Truth,Passion,Miracles | Tue Jul 06 1993 11:53 | 6 |
| >They are not alone. L'Acad�mie Anglaise has arrived, and its name is
>BBC. :-)
Is that why they insist on calling the capital of the PRC Peking?
andrew
|
1055.14 | | JIT081::DIAMOND | Pardon me? Or must I be a criminal? | Tue Jul 06 1993 20:53 | 10 |
| Rathole re .-a_few
The moth that was caught between two relay contacts by members of
Grace Hopper's team was duly entered into the log book for her
inspection, with a joking comment to their catching the "'bug'".
The word "bug" was quoted in the log book, which is why I quote
its quotation. And the entry made it quite clear that the word
"bug" was already jargon and that the literal occurence was funny.
-- Norman Diamond
|
1055.15 | | PRSSOS::MAILLARD | Denis MAILLARD | Wed Jul 07 1993 01:45 | 59 |
| Re .11, .12: About the French being anal retentive about their
language. I probably should take exception about that, but for me it
only shows how poorly informed you are... The French Academy is a never
complete body of old farts (there should be 40 of them but, given their
average age, one of their main activity is to elect new members to
replace the dead ones) who can only try to cooperate with the
inevitable by registering, with an average 50 years time delay, words
that people are using without bothering to ask for their permission.
Usually when they admit a word, the meaning they accept is already
obsolete and has fallen in disuse. What's more, they really aren't very
competent or outstanding persons. The academy is over 350 years old,
and in all that time I think that less than 10 writers of really great
stature (I mean, writers whose works are known internationally and have
survived the trials of time, the most well known being probably Victor
Hugo, who sought mermbership for political reasons, because at the time
he wasn't rich enough to be elected, and membership of the academy
included automatically a seat in the house of peers - that was under
Louis-Philippe -) have been members of it. Most French speaking people
usually mention the academy only to make fun about it (although I
wouldn't mind being elected, given the perks that go with it...). All
the documents from the academy or the French administration about the
use of French language and specific terms are dead letters before the
ink is dry (ever heard anyone use "monade" instead of "bit"?).
About English being unique in power and flexibility, and the most
extensive language in the world (.7), pardon me Andrew, there's nothing
personal in it, but I think this is pure bullshit. Voltaire was already
in the 18th century making the same point about French against English,
and I feel the same about Voltaire's opinion. About the half million
words in English, I've seen estimations of about 750,000-800,000 words
in French. So what? In the first place, I'd be very interested in
finding how the count was taken. Second, it means nothing as the number
of words in a language is fluctuating. A language is (very likely, I'm
not sure it can be proven, one way or the other) not a well defined set
(in the mathematical meaning of the term). This is one of the many
reasons why the efforts toward automatic translation of languages have
produced so few results so far. I'm not sure, but I've heard that this
was one of the reasons behind the work on the theory of "fuzzy sets"
(is that how you call them in English? In French we call them
"ensembles flous"). The argument of power and flexibility comes only
from the number of different cultural or technical backgrounds of the
people using the language and the same would most probably be true
about Zulu or Qarluk if these languages were spoken by as many people
as English is today. Chinese could also be a candidate but, while the
number of Chinese speakers is probably comparable to the number of
English speakers, they come from a much smaller number of cultural
origins (I've also heard that, while written Chinese is common to all
Chinese people, spoken Chinese varies greatly from one area to the next
one, but I'm not competent to discuss that). In short, the flexibility
is introduced in the language by the people who use it. The greater the
number of different uses the greater the flexibility, simply because
people are bound to adapt the language to their needs and ideas. There
are probably, as was noted about Humpty Dumpty, about as many
definitions of a word as there are speakers who know and use this word.
Mutual comprehension comes from the relative compatibility of these
definitions, and drifts of meaning are one of the causes for the
evolution of languages. I'm not sure I've been able to make myself
clear, as English is a second language for me, but I hope that readers
will be able to grasp my point.
Denis.
|
1055.16 | | PASTIS::MONAHAN | humanity is a trojan horse | Wed Jul 07 1993 02:22 | 3 |
| Now "monade" for "bit" is new to me. I mentioned "eb", which I
failed to find in a French-English dictionary 25 years ago when I was
working on modem design and trying to read a French text.
|
1055.17 | Pure as pig iron | RDGENG::OBRIENS | | Wed Jul 07 1993 03:39 | 39 |
| Interesting...
Re.10 Maybe I didn't elaborate enough on my point that was commented
on. I should have added ..in context.. somewhere in that note.
I am a technical writer (or will be) and my work revolves around
written communication; instructional material, user guides etc..
When writing this material, I am required to be concise, accurate,
relevent and all the rest... Once I thought that a light hearted
and easy to use instruction guide is what the world needs. Experience
now shows me that I'm wrong. Throw a jest into a short and accurate
document and it becomes longer, more confusing to the reader and
irrelevent. It's out of context.
There is a manner which must be adapted when writing in this way.
Problem is that `windows to the soul' is now replaced with `..windows that
allow the user to select the file that is required simply by quickly
clicking on its icon twice with the mouse.'
Same window, different context.
I enjoy prose, poetry and flowing descriptive text. I sometimes find it
hard to write in the way that my job requires me to. It doesn't help
matters when the information that I'm required to write into simple
easy to read understandable instructional text is full of words that I
don't understand and the person who thought of them for a new concept
cannot explain it accurately. How am I supposed to explain to a dumb
user when I'm a dumb writer ?
Times such as these are the times that I wish that people would be
relevent and sensible when they are in control of naming a new concept.
One more thing re.15 "automatic translation of languages".
That's someting I didn't consider. I asked in my initial note if
technology (computers) could (are) influencing this language. What
language translation packages are available and how good are they. When
computers are programmed to speak (if they can't already) will they be
able to understand the concept of similar words in different contexts?
If they can't will more words need to be devised to facilitate them?
Just a thought....
Sean
|
1055.18 | | PRSSOS::MAILLARD | Denis MAILLARD | Wed Jul 07 1993 04:03 | 8 |
| Re .16: Dave, "monade" for "bit" was one of the most ridiculous
recommendations in a French government report about the use of French
terms rather than English ones in computer science (computer science is
"informatique" in French; now, this term has gained recognition by all
French speakers and is the only one used, probably because it is shorter
than the English one). The report is at least 10 to 15 years old, but
it had probably not been yet released 25 years ago.
Denis.
|
1055.19 | &(official jargon file) | BBIV02::SAISREE | | Wed Jul 07 1993 04:34 | 7 |
| Jargon is generally generated by computer programmers. This is not a
DEC phenomenon. If you want insight into jargon look up the file at
decwrl::/pub/GNU. It is a 'gunzipped' file called jargon2910.ascii.gz.
Hope you have plenty of disk space.
Have fun.
Sai
|
1055.20 | Tech writing need not be dry. | SMURF::BINDER | Deus tuus tibi sed deus meus mihi | Wed Jul 07 1993 08:01 | 54 |
| Re .17
Technical communication should be concise and clear, yes, but there is
still room in that apparently restrictive framework for jest or humor.
Better, perhaps, that I should refer to what I mean as whimsy. A good
example among Digital technical publications is _The Big Gray Book: The
Nex Step with ULTRIX_, a user-friendly tutorial on several useful
ULTRIX�/UNIX� commands and utilities. Several readers of the book have
remarked that they liked it, and learned from it, because of the
whimsical nature of the examples provided. The footnotes in the book
identify them as coming from these sources:
Universal Cyclopedia and Atlas, D. Appleton and Company, 1903 (a
list of Japanese naval vessels)
100 Ways of Cooking Eggs, by Filippini, Charles L. Webster & co,
1892 (a recipe)
The Coming Race, by Edward Bulwer-Lytton, 1871 (a text fragment)
A Book of Nonsense, by Edward Lear, reprinted by Dover
Publications, 1951 (a limerick - a *clean* one!)
Rubiyat of Omar Khayyam, Empire State Book Company, 1924 (several
quatrains)
The Big Gray Book also uses a shopping list and many off-the cuff
examples describing the Bible, the boxer John L. Sullivan, and more.
Examples of this kind serve just as well as, and perhaps even better
than, dry code listings or similar soporific text. Of course, if
you're discussing the code for some piece of software, you needs must
use the code, but there are times when whimsy is the better part of
teaching.
Again, one footnote in the book, talking about a convention used with
an interactive communication utility, says this:
Another common protocol uses "o" to signal "Over" and "oo" to
signal "Over and out." This protocol is often used for radio
conversation in war movies and police dramas, but it's actually
pretty silly. "Over" means "It's your turn now," and "Out" means
"Goodbye," so when you say, "Over and out," you're really saying,
"You can talk now, but I just hung up."
While you wouldn't want to lard your discourse with this kind of
superfluous material, it adds interest, and people *will* read it. And
they'll learn what you're telling them better by virtue of liking the
book.
--------
� ULTRIX is a trademarl of Digital Equipment Corporation.
� UNIX is a registered trademark of UNIX Systems Laboratories.
|
1055.21 | | MU::PORTER | another fine mess | Wed Jul 07 1993 08:44 | 13 |
| >(computer science is
> "informatique" in French; now, this term has gained recognition by all
> French speakers and is the only one used, probably because it is shorter
> than the English one).
"Informatics" is a recognised English word now, and I for one
prefer it to "computer science": I've never been entirely convinced
that what I do is a science, even though I have a degree certificate
which says it is.
("English" in the above refers to the lanaguage spoken by the English;
I don't think I've heard it used much in American, except for
those whose speech has a heavy ISO accent).
|
1055.22 | | KRAUT::LASHER | Working... | Wed Jul 07 1993 10:49 | 13 |
| Re: .18
"'monade' for 'bit' was one of the most ridiculous recommendations in
a French government report about the use of French terms rather than
English ones in computer science (computer science is 'informatique'
in French; now, this term has gained recognition by all French
speakers and is the only one used, probably because it is shorter than
the English one)"
Who came up with "le logiciel"? That appears to be the most successful
of the French coinages in this area.
Lew Lasher
|
1055.23 | | PRSSOS::MAILLARD | Denis MAILLARD | Thu Jul 08 1993 00:40 | 13 |
| Re .22: Sorry, Lew, I've no idea about it. "Logiciel" is much more
often used in French than "software", although "software" is used and
understood by everybody (same way, "mat�riel" is used for "hardware"),
and I've seen them in use for over 20 years, but I don't know the
origin. I'd say that terms like logiciel, mat�riel, informatique,
ordinateur, octet, pile (for stack), periph�rique (for external
device), compilateur (for compiler), station de travail (for
workstation) and a few others are among the few successes of
terminology adaptation to the language. "Bit" and "bus" are the most
well-known cases of repeated failure to find a French equivallent that
would stick. Now what are the reasons why people accept one term and
reject another, I've no idea.
Denis.
|
1055.24 | | JIT081::DIAMOND | Pardon me? Or must I be a criminal? | Thu Jul 08 1993 00:54 | 7 |
| >"Bit" and "bus" are the most well-known cases of repeated failure to
>find a French equivallent that would stick.
Huh? Isn't "bus" a French word that was copied into English because
there's no English equivalent?
-- Norman Diamond
|
1055.25 | | PASTIS::MONAHAN | humanity is a trojan horse | Thu Jul 08 1993 01:17 | 6 |
| 19th. century London had the omnibus "for all" people movement. The
PDP-8E had the Omnibus(TM) "for all" data movement. In both cases it was
often abbreviated to 'bus.
I suspect that French usage is from the Latin via English, rather
than the other way round.
|
1055.26 | | PRSSOS::MAILLARD | Denis MAILLARD | Thu Jul 08 1993 06:35 | 4 |
| Re .25, .24: I'm not sure of the origin of the French word "bus". It
may come from Latin or from English, but the French word "omnibus" does
not mean a bus for all, but a bus that stops at all stations.
Denis.
|
1055.27 | Machine Translation | ULYSSE::MILDER | Nihil obstat | Thu Jul 08 1993 08:49 | 34 |
| RE: .17
> What language translation packages are available and how good are they.
The current Machine Translation or MT systems don't translate in the
literal sense of the word. They are based on text recognition and
retrieval: they compare new text against a database of previously
translated and stored strings, and they're good (and fast) at that.
The result of this high-speed search-and-replace operation is a rough
translation - you still need an editor or translator to fill in the
blanks and proofread/edit the whole text.
MT can be a solution in a highly standardized environment where the new
or updated documentation re-uses major chunks of the previous versions.
Assuming that the previous translations have been correctly "fed" into
the string database, MT will speed up the translation process.
Note that you need to build a separate database for each language pair.
There have been attempts to use an intermediate layer or "interlingua"
to facilitate the process, but most (if not all) of the current systems
are built on search-and-replace operations by language pair. BTW - the
interlingua procedure is based on the theory that human translation
uses an intermediate or kernel language to translate from one language
into another.
So to come back to the question: how good are they? It depends on what
you use them for. Asking a random MT system to translate a random text
is likely to produce surrealistic prose. It does work for Siemens in
Germany and for the aviation industry, it will probably not (yet) work
for DEC as our level of documentation standardization is insufficient
to make MT profitable.
-maarten.
|
1055.28 | Mostly jargon just identifies the in-crowd | LEZAH::HIGGINS | | Mon Dec 06 1993 14:29 | 20 |
|
This is where jargon comes from....
To describe the condition in which a customer cannot change or even
upgrade an application because it affects too many other applications,
the marketing guy uses the term INTEGRATION GRIDLOCK. Fine. Then, he
has to give a presentation on this in Munich, and being a 90's global
kind of guy, he wonders if perhaps "gridlock" can convery what he
means. The night before the presentation he is having supper with two
native French-speakers. He describes "gridlock" and asks for the
equivalent term, if any. The Frenchmen confer between them and then
tell him, "Yes, French has the equivalent. It is <something>." This
French phase, which my marketing guy can't remember, translates back
into English as "German_in_the_head". Apparently, gridlock is what it
feels like to be a French-speaker who is hearing/translating German --
you are kind of stuck until the verb shows up.
I predict that "gridlock" will become a loan-word in French and German.
BTW, so what *is* the French word for "gridlock"?
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1055.29 | | PADNOM::MAILLARD | Denis MAILLARD | Mon Dec 06 1993 23:39 | 8 |
| Re .28: As a native French speaker, I can't on the spot find a French
equivallent of Integration Gridlock, although I'm pretty sure there
must be one, but where I'm really puzzled is what French expression
could possibly translate back into English as "German_in_the_head"?
Could you possibly find it back and post it here, please? I'm fairly
sure I don't know it and would like to be enlightened (Note: I'm merely
curious, not sarcastic).
Denis.
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1055.30 | | ATYISB::HILL | Come on lemmings, let's go! | Tue Dec 07 1993 00:39 | 7 |
| French for 'gridlock'?
I've just looked it up in a big E-F,F-E dictionary -- there's no entry.
Looks like the word 'gridlock' will be used, but will need explanation.
Nick
|
1055.31 | | PASTIS::MONAHAN | humanity is a trojan horse | Tue Dec 07 1993 00:55 | 2 |
| My wife has been told that she speaks French like a Spanish cow,
but I don't remember any specifically German insults.
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1055.32 | | SMURF::BINDER | Cum dignitate otium | Tue Dec 07 1993 05:56 | 2 |
| I predict that "gridlock" will not be absorbed into French. The
Acad�mie Fran�aise would first expire en masse of heart failure.
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1055.33 | | MU::PORTER | bah, humbug! | Tue Dec 07 1993 06:05 | 2 |
| What's 'gridlock' in English? It's not listed in my 6th ed. (1976)
Concise Oxford, which is all I have available in my office.
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1055.34 | Uk English 'gridlock' | ATYISB::HILL | Come on lemmings, let's go! | Tue Dec 07 1993 06:25 | 4 |
| TNOESD:-
'gridlock' a traffic jam affecting a network of streets caused by
continuous queues of intersecting traffic.
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1055.35 | Roadworks | LINGO::PETERS | | Tue Dec 07 1993 06:33 | 12 |
| The closest we get to 'gridlock' is 'traffic jam', but then we don't have
street maps that look like graph paper, we are still using quaint
cobbled streets designed for hand-pulled carts and the like :-)
Gridlock is one of those graphically expressive "new" American terms
that are so instantly understandable that they wheedle their way into
the language despite infuriating almost everyone who hears them. Other
examples anyone?
Steve
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1055.36 | Verrily vomit-worthy | KERNEL::MORRIS | Which universe did you dial? | Tue Dec 07 1993 07:29 | 7 |
| I constantly baulk at "interoperability", a word _so_ user-unfriendly
that we have already had to transmute it to I14Y.
Having said which, I can not come up with a suitable, user-friendly,
alternative. Offers?
Jon
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1055.37 | You don't need right angles to have gridlock | LEZAH::HIGGINS | | Tue Dec 07 1993 07:33 | 14 |
|
RE: .29
I pleaded with the marketing guy to remember, but as he does not know
French, the phrase was just sound to him. He immediately asked his
companions what the phrase meant and they said "German in the head"
which is what he remembered. He thought that it might be derogatory and
he also thought that maybe his companions were setting him up for a
joke, so he didn't use any phrase at all. He used "traffic jam" which
is quite the same thing but seemed the safest choice.
RE. 35
"WEEKEND", at least in industrial cultures
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1055.38 | | JIT081::DIAMOND | $ SET MIDNIGHT | Tue Dec 07 1993 17:56 | 11 |
| Re .36
>I constantly baulk at "interoperability", a word _so_ user-unfriendly
>that we have already had to transmute it to I14Y.
>Having said which, I can not come up with a suitable, user-friendly,
>alternative. Offers?
Maybe just "balk", without the "u"?
(How's that for cooperation?)
-- Norman Diamond
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1055.39 | Pedantry to the fore | KERNEL::MORRIS | Which universe did you dial? | Wed Dec 08 1993 02:06 | 20 |
| Norman,
Not that I'm offended, but my dictionary (admittedly merely the
Chamber's Twentieth Century and not the Shorter Oxford English on the
shelves at home) gives:
bauk, baulk. Same as balk.
And it offers
balk, baulk, .....
indicating that, although balk is the more common usage, baulk is not
incorrect. Or were you trying to say something else?
Jon
p.s. I note with interest that Spell Checker (Houghton Mifflin British
dictionary engaged) doesn't recognise baulk as a word. But then it
wouldn't have recognised recognize either so "pah" to it!
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1055.40 | behind the dimpled ball | RAGMOP::T_PARMENTER | Here's to you, Dr. Heimlich! | Wed Dec 08 1993 05:49 | 2 |
| How aout stymie, then?
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1055.41 | | SMURF::BINDER | Cum dignitate otium | Wed Dec 08 1993 12:55 | 7 |
| Re .36
Unfortunately for you, "interoperability" is a really good word,
concise and specific in its meaning. To replace it would require a
phrase such as "ability to operate together"; I prefer i14y to a25r.
:-)
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1055.42 | | JIT081::DIAMOND | $ SET MIDNIGHT | Wed Dec 08 1993 18:38 | 7 |
| OK, sorry, I'll take your word for it that "baulk" is in some
dictionaries. (There's no English-language dictionary near my
office now and I won't remember to look at home.)
So now, how's *this* for cooperation?
-- Norman Diamond
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1055.43 | Hrmph | NRSTA2::KALIKOW | RTFW | Wed Dec 08 1993 20:39 | 7 |
|
So now, where's the �mlaut/dia�resis in co�peration???
:-)
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1055.44 | | JIT081::DIAMOND | $ SET MIDNIGHT | Wed Dec 08 1993 22:29 | 7 |
| �٣�������������������塡�������������塡���
��������졡���������������������ģ������ǣ�
�����������䡡��������졡����������
����������������������������塡������
������
�ݡݡ��Σ�����ģ������
|
1055.45 | terminal case | HLDE01::STEENWINKEL | Mostly Harmless | Thu Dec 09 1993 00:14 | 13 |
| >�٣�������������������塡�������������塡���
>��������졡���������������������ģ������ǣ�
>�����������䡡��������졡����������
>����������������������������塡������
>������
>
>�ݡݡ��Σ�����ģ������
Looks like someone vomited over my screen, but it's impossible to tell
(for me at least) if there are any verbs in it :-)
- Rik -
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1055.46 | | NRSTA2::KALIKOW | RTFW | Thu Dec 09 1993 04:35 | 5 |
| Too true, Rik. Around these parts, whatever Norman entered has slopped
out of my laptop's screen, past the keyboard, and down onto the
terminal case on the floor. I shudder to think what it sez!!?
D
|
1055.47 | 16-bit | REGENT::BROOMHEAD | Don't panic -- yet. | Thu Dec 09 1993 09:14 | 3 |
| Probably something very ordinary -- in Japanese.
Ann B.
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1055.48 | | JIT081::DIAMOND | $ SET MIDNIGHT | Thu Dec 09 1993 20:58 | 10 |
| Actually it was very ordinary and in English. But since some of the
other regulars in this conference make full use of some of Digital's
uncooperative character sets, I did the same. Each of your dieresized
or accented characters plus following character (ordinary or not)
turns into a square on Digital's uncooperative terminals and terminal
emulators. Each of my double-width Roman characters turns into two
pieces of garbage on Digital's uncooperative terminals and terminal
emulators. (How's this for ininteroperability?)
-- Norman Diamond
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1055.49 | In answer to Hrmph | KERNEL::MORRIS | Which universe did you dial? | Fri Dec 10 1993 09:38 | 11 |
| re: .43
> So now, where's the �mlaut/dia�resis in co�peration???
According to my dictionary, you can place one in between the two letter
os as long as the two dots which form the dia�resis are joined.
Hope my co-operation helps ;-)
Jon
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