Conference thebay::joyoflex

    
    	I'll venture a guess from 18-19th century nautical tradition:
   The instruction to a helmsman on a sailing ship to steer "by and large"
   means to steer fairly close to the wind, but keep the sails full.  How 
   this came to mean "in general" is left to the student as an exercise.
		Dave (8^))

Hmmm,

	I think the instructions to your hypothetical helmsman would be 
	something like:

	"Make your course north north-west, by and large",

	i.e., head NNW, but sail close to the wind and keep the sails full
	(presumably tacking as required).


	This phrase could easily evolve to mean "head generally in the
	direction of NNW"

	Close enough?


Ian S.

    Quantity pricing makes it profitable to pay wholesale and charge retail.
    General stores would buy in large.

    According to Commander Peter Kent, writing in The Oxford Companion
    to Ships and the Sea, .1 is right.
    
    b

    G'day,
    
     ... and I think you may find that the 'by' part refers to the 'by'
    points of a compass N, N�E, N�E, N3/4E NbyE..... thus by and large
    means that direction and away from it as far as the next 'by' point....
    It was one of the few things that a sailor got to choose or use his
    initiative about.
    
    
    Other nautical expressions...           [I think..]
    
    between the devil and the deep blue sea
    Picking Oakum
    splicing the mainbrace
    'tween decks lawyer
    
    keelhauling
    jury rigged
    figurehead
    
    
    
    derek

    
    
    	RE: Other nautical expressions
    
    	Don't forget "three sheets to the wind" and "caught in
    	the doldrums."

	More originally-nautical expressions often used in other 
	contexts are:

		to the bitter end
		at the helm
		sailing close to the wind
		on one's beam ends
		spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar
		a fair wind			
		on a collision course

	and, more sophisticatedly ...




		"Life's a reach and then you gybe!"

    Another nautical expression, allied with "between the devil and the
    deep blue sea," is "there'll be the devil to pay."
    
    Both refer to the crack where the deck of a wooden ship meets the side. 
    "Between the devil and the deep blue sea" means, basically, outboard of
    the devil and likely to fall into the water, hence in a dangerous
    situation.  "...The devil to pay" refers to the act of stuffing the
    devil full of oakum and pitch, called "paying the devil."
    
    -d

    "splice the main brace"

    and the final line of the limerick:

    	"... lift up the top sheet and spanker."

    Please post the full limerick.  Surely the first four lines are
    tamer than the fifth?

    	One of my anthologies gives :-
    
    There was a young lady called Banker
    Who slept while her ship lay at anchor.
    	She awoke in dismay
    	When she heard the mate say:
    "Hi! Hoist up the top sheet and spanker!"

    A couple more: `clear the decks' and `nipper' (a child - one of the
    powder-monkeys on a fighting ship - whose job it was to tie [`nip']
    a thin rope [I've forgotten what its proper name was] to the main
    hawser when dropping anchor). Oh, and `loose cannon'.
    
    When you start thinking about nautical expressions that found their
    way into current English, you keep stumbling on other languages too.
    I'll cite only one - Lat. gubernator [rudder] from which we get
    `governor'. I wonder if the first user of the expression `ship of
    state' had this in mind.
    
    It's interesting, and not unrelated, to note that Portuguese (a
    language with quite a history of sea-faring and exploring) has two 
    words for losing your bearings [is that another one?] - `desorientar'
    [not knowing where east is] and `desnortear' [not knowing where
    north is].
    
    b
    

    Ship shape and Bristol fashion
    
       Ships from Bristol were renowned for their smart turn out.
    
    Get your finger out!
    
       Once the cannon had been loaded a gunner put his finger in the 
       depression of the touch hole to stop the powder getting wet from 
       the sea sparay.  When the order to fire was given he had to remove 
       his finger, or it was burnt away as the light was applied.

    G'day,
    
     I understood the devil was the strake directly along the waterline...
    and indeed caulking it put you between the devil and the deep blue
    sea..
    
    and then there's
    
    landlubber
    and sea legs
    two sheets to the wind
    sailors have more fun....
    
    the captain's table
    
    battening down the hatches
    
    POSH  (Port Out, Starboard Home)
    
    a spanking pace
    
    two six heave 
    
    swinging the lead (it's _supposed to go in the water regularly, not
    just swing)
    
    Mark Twain
    
    Davey Jones' locker
    
    on your beam ends
    
    keelhaul
    
    heave to
    
    pieces of eight
    
    run before the wind
    
    in irons
    
    in the doldrums
    
    shiver me timbers (with literary allusions)
    
    full fathom five
    
    fathom it out
    
    a safe berth
    
    
    
    Like a ship in the night
    
    and some doggerel... advice to sailors from the Manual of Seamanship,
    Vol 1, 1937 edition, (without permission, just from memory) 
    
    
    If both lights you see ahead,
    starboard wheel and show your red  (ships pass left (port) side to
    left)
    
    If to your port side is seen
    another ships light of green
    there's not much for you to do,
    cos green to port keeps clear of you... (shipd give way to the right)
    
    if to your starboard red appear
    'tis your duty to keep clear
    to do what is right and proper
    slow right down, or even stop 'er
    
    
    

    Re: the devil's location
    
    I thought I got that out of a C.S. Forester novel, but I could be
    wrong.  So I checked the OED, which says (after you follow the chain of
    definitions through) that the devil is the seam between the keel and
    the garboard strake, which is the first strake laid next to the keel.
    
    Live and learn.  :-)
    
    -d

    Here are two more. I wouldn't swear to them, but they're quite
    interesting:
    
    Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey
    	Supposedly, cannon-balls were kept on a rack called a `monkey'.
    	If there was a big enough difference in the coefficients of
    	expansion of the balls and the rack, in extremely cold weather 
    	the balls could fall off.
    
    Son of a gun
    	Something to do with prostitutes and lying on the weather deck
    	beside a cannon. (I wasn't at all persuaded by this one when I
    	first heard it - I can't imagine an 8mths+ pregnant woman negotiating 
    	a gang-plank. Has anyone got a more plausible story involving bastard 
    	children and cannon?)
    
    
    b

Re: son of a gun

Bob, the presence of the prostitutes wasn't at the time of birth but
rather at the time of conception.  In many navies, including the Royal
Navy, it was common practice to invite women of all sorts on deck when
in port.  Bumboat women didn't stay on their boats, you know.  Wives and
lovers and "professional ladies" mingled with the men - and that
mingling cound (and often did) lead to a closer mingling.  200 years ago
the lower classes, from which most Bitish sailors were impressed, didn't
care as much about privacy for coition as most of us do now, and it
really wasn't an uncommon thing to see a sex-starved sailor and a woman
enjoying each other's services.  The choldren conceived therein were
known as sons of guns.

-d

    You live and learn; thanks - I _thought_ there might be some
    interesting etymology somewhere there.
    
    This naval derivations thing is never-ending.  The latest that has
    occurred to me is `show a leg' - the leg in question being that of
    the potential mother of a son of a gun, shown over the side of a
    hammock to prove that the inhabitant thereof wasn't a lead-swinging
    sailor.
    
    b

    G'day,
    
    Re .19 'show a leg'
    
    This was to ensure that the hammock contained _only_ jolly jack tars...
    
    Wakey wakey!
     rise and shine
    hands off ******
    on with your socks
    and show a leg.....
    
    
    It is also bad form to whistle on board ship, in case you whistle up a
    wind.. on the other hand, the cook must be heard to be whistling, then
    he obviously has not got extra food in it....
    
    re the sons of guns.. HMS Victory has a small cabin way down at the
    after end of on one of the lower decks where women were carried for,
    dare I say it, use at sea. It is called 'the women's hole'. 
    
    I would suspect that the terms after and before might have nautical
    derivations too... though abaft  and astern don't seem to be in common
    parlance(ie out of a nautical usage).
    
    how about 'a tight ship', and of course, a ship is referred to as she
    because...
    
    It takes a man to control her, and when she comes into harbour, she
    hugs the bouys....
    
    
    ;-)
    derek

	Ref .21
>>    It is also bad form to whistle on board ship, in case you whistle up a
>>    wind... 

	Right.  And in France, you don't mention rabbits aboard - that's
	really bad luck.

    	BTW: in the UK ,the three most useless things aboard a boat 
	are said to be a suitcase, an umbrella and a Naval officer!

>>	"women's hole"  

	As an innocent schoolboy, visiting the Victory,	I was told it 
	is called that because only one man could enter at a time.
	Anyway, once at sea, there *were* no women, so it would have 
	been called the "cabin boys' hole", surely   :-)

	Jim

    Hey, speaking of words and phrases that are not supposed to mentioned
    onboard ship, I came across one yesterday in a book I'm reading.  One
    of the characters mentions something about "Macbeth" and the other says
    that to mention anything about this play, or its characters, or
    especially the name, is traditionally considered to bring on bad luck.
    Anyone ever heard this?  Or did the author just make it up...
    
    -e

    It's unlucky to mention it in a theater (among the acters, that is),
    not on a ship, unless the ship has a theater....
    
    		-John Bishop

    re .-1
    
    Unlucky to mention "Macbeth" in a theater, huh?  Wonder how that came
    about.  Must make it difficult if the current production is *that*
    play.  IN the book I'm reading, there is no theater on the ship
    (boat?).  Maybe the author is confused.  There have been other signs of
    it....
    
    -e

    First Witch: A sailors wife had chestnuts in her lap,
    and munch'd and munch'd and munch'd :- "Give me", quoth I:
    "Aroint thee witch!" the rump-fed ronyon cries.
    Her husband's to Aleppo gone, master o' the Tiger:
    But in a sieve I'll thither sail
    And like a rat without a tail
    I'll do, I'll do, I'll do.
    
    --------------------
    The following lines give details of her revenge that would be enough to
    make any superstitious sailor feel a little uneasy.
    
    I have no idea if there is any such tradition, but I can't imagine that
    part of the play being too popular on board ship.

		Thespians (at least in Britain) refer to Macbeth 
		as "The Scottish Play".  To call it by its real
		name is considered as unlucky as saying "good 
		luck" (instead of the correct "break a leg").

		Jim

    Re a few back and the mention of rabbits...
    
       Don't talk about rabbits on Portland Bill (Dorset, UK).
    
       Legend tells that just before a major quarry accident on Portlan 
       Bill, which caused several fatalities, all the rabbits left the 
       Bill and ran across the causeway.
    
    Nick