Conference thebay::joyoflex

    Several is a few more than a few.

    
    Yes, when someone says SEVERAL to me, I usually think 5-10...
    
    How about:
    
    	single		1
    	couple		2
    	few		3,4
    	several		5-10
    	dozen		11-13 ...
    
    ???

>>    	few		3,4
>>    	several		5-10

Ah yes, but the connotation? For me there is an implied expected quantity,
which the adjective is discounting. That is, if someone says 'a few' it means
there is a small number, perhaps only 2 or 3, but you might have expected many
more, whereas 'several' implies for there are a larger number perhaps 3 to 5
when you might have expected only one or two.

The numerical limits all depend on context, I'm sure the few referred to by
Winston were more than 3 pilots, but the above concept still holds good.

	Steve
	

    The connotation depends on usage and context.  Your examples are valid,
    but they're not the only ones -- other examples may give a different
    weight to "few" and "several."
    
    					andrew

    I can see situations in which few and several would have the
    connotations you suggest, but in the abstract the only meaning
    that comes up in my feeble overholidayed brain is that few is
    fewer than several.
    
    --bonnie

    I once got into an argument with a high school teacher regarding
    "several."  She gave a true-or-false test, and one of the questions was
    of the form "There are several A's which meet condition B."
    	Now, the number of A's which met condition B was three, which I did
    not believe was "several", so I answered "false."  It turns out that
    "three" satisfied the dictionary definition of "several", which was
    defined as "being more than two, but not many" (how vague can you
    get?).  Even though I was able to explain to her that the number of A's
    in question was three, and that I thought "several" was too vague a
    term in this instance, she wouldn't give me credit for the answer.
    	By the way, if this was an English test, I might not have minded,
    since the point of the question might have been establish the
    definition of "several," but the this was a history test.  For this and
    other reasons, I didn't get along well with this particular teacher.
    
    -Tom

    (.. and let's hope it's not one of _several_    :-) 
    
    Several years ago (and that's a lot more than 3 or 4), as a grad
    student at UNC, I attended a Physics Department seminar in which the
    guest lecturer referred to 'several' experiments that proved the theory
    that he was discussing.  At that, one of the professors literally lept
    to his feet, proclaiming, "You say 'several', but I know of only two
    such experiments!"
    
    Whereupon, the lecturer calmly rejoined, "Dr. Stewart, I won't digress
    into a mathematical debate on whether '2' is a large number!"
    
    (Oh, well. Maybe it's funny if you're a mathematician.)
    
    /Bob

                             Corollary question:
    
                  Does few plus few ALWAYS equal SEVERAL?
    
                               Methinks YES

    
    There have been several replies to the the base note.
    
    A few of them have been anecdotes.
    
    Quite a few have been on the topic.
    
    Is 'quite a few' equal to 'all' minus ' a few'?
    
    Roger

For me, the issue is entirely context driven. 

In some contexts, "several" can imply two or three:

     "Boy, that's a big garage you've had built. Do  you need it?"

     "Yes, I have several cars."

Here you might expect the garage owner to have two, perhaps three cars. You'd 
probably be surprised if he has five or six.


If "few" were substituted for "several," the implication could be that the
garage owner has a bunch of cars -- especially if the irony was indicated:

      "Do you have many cars?"

       "Oh, a few," he said with a grin. (In fact, he has seven.)

"Few" might indicate more than "several" even if irony wasn't implied:

       "Hey, Bob. I'm a bit short today, can I borrow a several bucks for lunch?"

        "Hi, mom. I've got to get new brakes for my car. Can I borrow a
         few bucks until I get my tax refund. 

In the following sentences, the tone of voice and the word on which the speaker
places the emphasis would be major indicators of who had the harder life:

        "I'm not perfect. I've made several mistakes in my life.

        "I've had a few heartaches. But I'm a survivor."

- Craig
    

    re: .8 (anecdotes) and .10 (cars), someone I know believes she needs an
    appropriate car for each type of social occasion, plus one for the
    butler to use for shopping. There is no point in asking her whether she
    has a few or several cars since she does not speak English.

    I've heard of sidelining, but I've never seen the noun rathole verbed.
    
    b

    I've never seen "rathole" verbed in writing, but I've heard it
    verbed in conversation several times.
    
    --bonnie

    You realize, of course, that you are also verbing the noun verb.
    
    Bernie

>    You realize, of course, that you are also verbing the noun verb.
    
When I first read this, I thought that you had adjectivized the noun "noun".

Clay

    
    I would NEVER adjectivize the noun noun.  Whereas you have just verbed
    the noun adjective.
    
    Bernie

>>    I would NEVER adjectivize the noun noun.  Whereas you have just verbed
>>    the noun adjective.
    
    Not really.  If the word for "to create a verb from another part of
    speech" is defined as "to verb", then the word for "to create an
    adjective from another part of speech" would be "to adjective". 
    
    Wouldn't it?
    
    -Tom

You all realize, of course, that we've just ratholized the topic of
'several' vs. 'few' by enverbifying, ennounifying, and enadjectivifying.
Personally, I like enverbification of nouns and adjectives, but I don't
usually like to enadjectivify verbs.

Dave C.

    ... to Diginymify this ratholeization, if only to save disk space!
    
    :-)

    I agree that the last several replies seem to have been off the topic,
    but then it was I that started it the idea of ratholification of the
    topic ;-)

    The whole idea of the fusing the most recent replies onto the earlier
    ones rates as a severe disservice, and a holistic adjudication would be
    to sever them.  To verbalize my opinion, Phew.

    "The Marines need a few good men."

    Few -- a small number compared to the group from which it is selected,
    	emphasis is on the smallness of the number compared to the
    	speaker's or hearer's expectations.
    
    	"...so much owed to so few."
    	"Few of the conifers are decidious, but..."
    	"There are a few modern novels in my library."
    
    	Sometimes used to imply more than expected, as a joke:
    
    	"I have a few cars/houses/wives"
    
    Several -- a significant number compared to the group from which it is
    	selected.
    
    	"Several companies have child-care plans."
    	"Many are called and several are chosen." (cf. "few")
    
    			-John Bishop
    

    Re: .17
    
    Adjectivized the noun noun verbs the noun adjective, since adjective is
    a noun and adjectivized is a verb, as would be adjected.  Can't see
    anywhere where you adjected the noun noun, noun verb, or noun
    adjective.  Or have I missed something (besides the inverted commas).
    
    
    Re: .18 through .21
    
    We certainly are ratholing (and LOVING it), but you are guilty of a far
    greater sin - metaratholing.  Of course, that means I'm now
    metametaratholing (RMM in DEC parlance), which is not a sin at all.
    
    
    Re: the topic (more or less)
    
    Has anyone noticed that the title AS STATED:
    
    	How many is 'several'?
    
    could have a straightforward answer, like 1 or 7?
    
    Bernie

John:

I don't mean to engage in R14N, but did you run the following line 
through SPELLCHECK?

>    	"Few of the conifers are decidious, but..."

Orthographically yours,

	-- Cliff

    >Has anyone noticed that the title AS STATED:
    >    How many is 'several'?
    >could have a straightforward answer, like 1 or 7?
    
    Don't you mean it could have several straightforward answers?

Shouldn't the title be "How many ARE 'several'"?

Dave C.

    > Don't you mean it could have several straightforward answers?
    
    No.  I meant less than several, more than a few, a lot fewer than many;
    somewhere between a little and a lot.
    
    Bernie

    If it had a straightforward answer, or even several
    straightforward answers, it wouldn't be in this notes conference.
    
    --bonnie

    
    >Shouldn't the title be "How many ARE 'several'"?
    
    In English yes; in American no.
    
    Do you say one-half of 100 is 50, or one-half of 100 are 50?
    I'll bet even English speak American this time.

    Re .26, .28 and .30
    
    The question doesn't have several answers; it has two - 1 [how many
    words?] and 7 [how many letters?]. That's only a couple of answers.
    
    b

re .30

I say "One half of a hundred is fifty."  (Notice that there is no
hyphen.)  The subject is 'half', not 'one-half', therefore it is
singular and requires a singular verb.

Similarly, one quarter of a hundred is twenty-five, but three quarters
of a hundred are seventy-five.

Dave C.

    Twenty-five is one quarter of a hundred,
    twenty-five lemons is one quarter of a hundred lemons?

Re .33

These two cases are different:

>     Twenty-five is one quarter of a hundred,

The subject is twenty-five.  There is only one twenty-five.  This is singular.

>     twenty-five lemons is one quarter of a hundred lemons?

The subject is lemons.  There are multiple lemons.  (Twenty-five to be exact.) 
This is plural so the 'is' should be an 'are'.

I don't know if there is a difference between British and American English on 
this but, just in case, I'd better state that I'm on the right hand side of the
Atlantic (looking from the South pole).

Jon

re .34

>>     twenty-five lemons is one quarter of a hundred lemons?
>
>The subject is lemons.  There are multiple lemons.  (Twenty-five to be exact.) 
>This is plural so the 'is' should be an 'are'.

Not necessarily.  If the subject is 'lemons', then 'quarter' must be a
predicate nominative.  A predicate nominative agrees with the subject in
case and number, doesn't it?  Would someone expert in English grammar
care to comment on that?  The sentence could be rewritten as

       One quarter of a hundred lemons is twenty-five lemons.

Now, we could say that the subject is 'quarter' and 'lemons' is a
predicate nominative.  I don't believe that the number of the verb
should change when you interchange the subject and predicate nominative.
I think the correct interpretation of this sentence is to take
'twenty-five lemons' as a quantity, hence singular, in the same way
an amount of money is taken to be a single quantity.  We say,
"Twenty-five dollars is sufficient to be buy enough gasoline."  We don't
say "Twenty-five dollars are."  Why should dollars be treated
differently from lemons?

Hmm.  Did I just contradict myself?

Dave C.

    > Why should dollars be treated differently from lemons?
    
    Well, for one thing, it's much more difficult to, uh.. squeeze a lemon
    into a dollar bill changer.
    
    
    > A predicate nominative agrees with the subject in ... number, doesn't
    > it?
    
    Subject and verb must agree in number, of course, but there is no
    corresponding rule about predicate complements.  Here's what Fowler has
    to say:
    
    	When the subject is a straightforward singular (not a noun of 
    	multitude, such as 'party' etc.), or a straightforward plural
    	(not used in a virtually singular sense like 'wages') and does
    	not consist of separate items (as in 'he and she'), the verb
    	follows the number of the subject, whatever that of the complement
    	may be.  That it is not as needless as it might be thought to set
    	this down will be plain from the following extracts, some of the
    	simplest form, all violating the rule: 'Our only guide were the
    	stars./ Its strongest point are the diagrams....  The only comment
    	necessary on these is that when, as in the first two examples, it
    	makes no difference to the meaning which of two words ('stars' or
    	'guide', 'point' or 'diagrams', is made the subject and which the
    	complement, the one that is placed first must (except in questions)
    	be regarded as subject and have the verb suited to its number: 
    	'Our only guide was the stars' or 'The stars were our only guide'.
    	Such apparent exceptions as 'Six months was the time allowed for
    	completion' ... are not true ones, for here the complement makes
    	it clear that the subject, though plural in form, is singular in
    	sense ('a period of ---').
    
    Although the subject determines the number of the verb and the
    complement does not, Fowler seems to be saying that, in the case of the
    lemons, 'is' is the correct verb form because the sense of the subject
    is singular:
    
    	[A quantity of] twenty-five lemons is...
    
    Bernie

Here's the lead sentence from an AP story: For the first time, fewer than one
American in four lives in the countryside, the Census Bureau said yesterday.

It sounds wrong to me.  Comments?

    Sounds OK to me in spite of the subject-verb number disagreement.
    It should say,
    
    	...fewer ... live  in the countryside...
    		         ^
    			 ^no "s"

    Ah, but it's fewer than one.
    If it's zero, then some pedantics say that "none lives" is correct.
    If it's one-third, then singular; but if it's two-thirds, then plural.
    And if it's one-half, then singular; but if it's five-tenths, then plural.
    There's one advantage of languages that don't distinguish singularities
    from pluralities....