Conference thebay::joyoflex

Perhaps buttons are both contained within and belong to a particular
window.  If you want to convey both of these concepts, you can use
the compound preposition "in and of".   Perhaps the button is not IN the
window; perhaps it is ON the window.  Real physical buttons are usually
ON some object, not IN them.  (They are OF them, though.)

Again, relating to the real physical world, something IN a window is
usually BEHIND it.  Now, say you've got a text window.  I would say
that there is text IN the window, but a button is ON it.  Do you need
to distinguish between the kind of containment that a window has to
its contents (like text) and the kind of containment that it has to
its buttons?

Dave C.

    In the grammar conference, I liked "in", and I still like it. It sounds
    right. For a "literary" reference, I used the 1950's song title, "How
    much is that doggy in the window?"

Re .2

"How Much is that Doggy in the Window?" uses 'in' in the sense of
'behind' or 'beyond'.  

As far sounding right, didn't your high school English teacher ever
tell you that sounding right is not a good criterion for deciding
whether something IS right?  It sounds right because you use it that
way, and you hear other people use it that way often.  "Ain't I?" sounds
right to many people, too.   So does "aren't I?".   Neither is "correct"
as standard English.

'In' sounds right to me, too.  But a button isn't IN a window in the
sense that text is IN a window.   Okay, the word 'in' has at least
two meanings.  If it's important to differentiate between these two
kinds of "in-ness", then I still recommend 'on' for buttons.  

Dave C.

The problem with this expression "in the window" is the fact that there is a
missing word ....

The doggie in the window is in fact a part of a window display ...

"How much is that doggie in the window display ?"

    
    
 "How much is that doggie in the window display?" prompts the response:
    
    "The window display is not for sale, only the doggie."

Customer: "How much is that doggie in the window display?"

Doggie:   "Ruff!"

Clerk:    "$13.95.  Next time, ask me."




Well, ok, put a comma after "that".

    How much is that doggie in the window
    With the basketball nose on his face
    You know what a basketball nose is
    It dribbles all over the place.
    

    Montana -- The land of "go cups" and fractured children's songs.  Sigh.
    After .6, I thought that the topic had digressed to its lowest level. 
    I guess not. :?)
    
    As for this fascinating topic, I think I'll wander around and quiz some
    colleagues.  I'll point at the screen and let them describe what I'm
    pointing at.  It should be educational and good for a few laughs.
    
    Eric  

RE .3

>>                                But a button isn't IN a window in the
>> sense that text is IN a window.


I don't see the distinction. Could you elaborate, please?

Ian

    re: .8
    
    Beg pardon?  What's a "go cup"?
    
    --bonnie
    

    In the old days, when my wife was a kid (and she's only 32 now), bars
    would have a last call right at closing time.  Patrons would order, and
    they would receive their beverage and a cup to go.  The cup was called
    a "go cup."  Ever since I heard this, I have always referred to Montana
    as the land of the "go cup."
    
    And now, back to our regularly scheduled program...
    
    Eric (who travels to Great Falls, Billings, and Missoula regularly)

    Yow! Montana has go cups? I thought only civilized places like N'awlins
    had go cups!
    
    	Jon

    Montana didn't have go cups when I was growing up -- not legal
    ones, anyway.  Unless the law has changed in the past few years,
    any bar that offered this "service" was in violation of state
    liquor laws.
    
    And I don't see what the state's liquor laws, or my being from 
    Montana, had to do with the fact that I pulled a joke that
    apparently flopped.  The song's not from Montana.  We heard it on
    the Grand Ole Opry, which is in Nashville, Tennessee.  Yes, it was
    a digression.  It's not the first one in this file.  Or are people
    from Montana not allowed to make digressive jokes?
    
    --bonnie

    Bonnie,
    
    No harm intended.  I've noticed that you often make reference to your
    Montana roots, so I thought that I would pop in a response to make you,
    and other noters, smile.  I guess it didn't have that effect.  So,
    let's all smile at my goof and return to the topic.
    
    Eric  :?)

    'Saright.
    
    --bonnie

Re .9 (re .3)

Perhaps I'm weird.  To me, a window is something you look through to 
see an object, or part of an object.  That object is said to be in the
window.  (I think a better preposition would be 'behind'.)  A button is
associated with the window in a different way than the object being
viewed through the window.  It is part of the window.  I think it would
be better to use the preposition 'on'.

Now, if you take the point of view that a window is just a region of
2-D space, then, yes, both buttons and text can be said to be in the
window.   But then a small window whose extents are entirely within
the extents of a larger window should also be said to be in that
larger window.  Is that right?

This probably doesn't help; it probably makes it worse.

Dave C.

    Re: .16
    
    I think it just helps show that we won't be able to describe all this
    structure complexity merely by choosing the "right" preposition.

    I don't think .16 makes it worse. It clarified for me the reason for
    the confusion; previously I hadn't been able to see why anyone would
    want to use any preposition other than `on'.
    
    I don't think I've ever tried to think of on-line `windows' (2D)
    as anything like real world windows (beyond which there are 3D
    objects). I thought the term `window' was just a convenient way
    of referring to something on the screen having four edges.
    
    Still, now that I understand the confusion, I shall stick to my 2D
    sense of (on-line) `windows'.  If I looked through them I would
    see either the code or the back of a CRT, and I'd rather not
    think about either.
    
    b

    We had a fly within the window this weekend --
    
    It got caught between the window and the storm window.  
    
    I'm not sure if a button in a 3D windowing system could find
    itself in this situation or not.
    
    --bonnie

For 3D windows, the only things technically in the window (for me anyway) are
things embedded in the glass.  Anything on the surface is on the window.  Things
beyond the window are either outside if I'm looking out or inside if I'm looking
in.  This applies to 3D windows only.  So, for me, the doggie is in the pet 
store.  I just happen to see it through the window.

In the 2D case, anything within the boundaries of a "window" are inside and
anything not within the boundaries of a window are outside.  Don't ask me what
I call things which are partially inside and partially outside.  I haven't
figured that out yet. :-)

Wook

    I vote we take this discussion, kick it in the button, and chuck
    it out the window.

    Re: .21
    
    Should that be "in the button" or "on the button"?

    May I be so bold as to interject (I already wear glasses from
    interjecting so much in life.) my ideas on this subject?
    
    I too liked reply .16 as an explanation.
    It helps to define some of the terms being used here.
    
    a. Let's say "in" means "totally contained within the limits of..."
    b. Now define a "window"  2D 3D or whatever.
    c. Now define the dreaded "object" or button
    
    Now if "c" in all it's dimensions, conforms to the definition  "a"
    in it's relationship to "b" and it's dimensions; then IN is obviously
    the correct preposition to use in describing it's relationship to the
    window.
    
    E.G. text is IN a window on your terminal...hopefully
         
    To me, a window...as in a house window...is the entire casing which is
    sold by dealers and lumber yards etc..not just the glass itself.
    Therefore the glass is IN the window and so may be buttons, spiders,
    and various other objects.
    
    I feel it is all in the definitions used for "window", "in" and
    "button".
    
    P.S.  The song should've been titled "What is the cost of that dog-like
    creature within the confines of the show case."  So there, Patti
    Page...ponder on that for awhile.
    
    Terry

    re: .22
    
    I think it's "kick the button in and enjoy the sound of shattering
    glass."
    
    --bonnie

    You're dealing with colloquisms derived from abbreviating words
    and word sets.
    
    A window is defined as an opening in a wall; therefore you're looking
    in(to) an opening or out (of) an opening.  The thickness of the wall 
    defines the size of an object said to be "in the window".  In the
    case of the fictitious "doggie", one can assume it is a small dog
    (or puppy) which is being displayed in the window (opening).  The
    depth of a "window" can also be defined by the window frame, as
    "The cat is sleeping in the (bay) window (opening)."  (Either that or 
    the cat didn't realize there was window glass present and is lying 
    imbedded in the glass, unconcious.  Stupid cat.)
                                   
    The Hollies, incidentally, chose to "look through any window (yeah)".
    Much more satisfying to the Gramatically Correct.  However, in most
    states it is illegal, and using Grammer as a defense won't be of
    much use (unless she swears you were at her house at the time, and
    she does not wear her orthopedic hat into the courtroom.        
    
    Similarly, one doesn't walk thru a door, but rather walks thru the
    doorway.  Further, one doesn't open a door, but rather pivots it
    out of the way.  (If one is very strong and in a hurry, the door
    might be pivoted right *out* of the doorway.)
    
    There has been some progress, BTW.  We used to say, "throw up the
    sash."; now we say "open the window.", which seems more correct,
    especially since that item is no longer served in most resturants.
    
    [Aside:  A number of our ancestors used to say "Throw up your hands!"
    but the Pinkertons got most of 'em.]
    
    (The beanerys have adapted, however; they offer hash.  Fortunately
    for this topic, their hash is typically undefinable, and we can
    cease this course of investigation.  (As Ambrose Bierce so aptly
    put it in his DEVIL'S DICTIONARY: "There is no definition for this
    word--nobody knows what hash is.") 
                                      
    Now, some of the uses of "window" work out O.K.:
    Window washer--self-explanatory, merely difficult to locate.
    Window dresser--a specialized field; window dressing requires artistic 
    talent. The lady who lived in our house before we bought it was a
    window dresser, much to the delight of the adolescent neighborhood boys.
    Window sill--flat portion of window opening (is that now reduntant?)
    on which window rests.  *This* is confusing.
    window box--box for growing plants outside window.  (So if you have
    a window box *in* the window, please remove it or write the current
    editor of Webster's Dictionary explaining why not so next year your
    flowering plants will be grammatically correct.
    Window display--see "window dresser" (or write me for directions;
    I know where she's living now.)  ;-)
    Window shade--a screen used to regulate the amount of light passing
    through a window, especially useful if you've first covered the
    window opening with glass.  Not to be confused with Window Shade,
    which is another topic (and file).
    Window treatment--see "window display".
                                           
    Well, that's it for now; I'm mentally drained, so this is a good
    time to get back to work.  Next time I'll work on "button" (sorry)
    and its other variations (Off Button, Buttonhole, Button hole,
    Buttonman, Button Hook, Button-button, and etc.). 
                              
    							Don

    There is, by the way, some disagreement on the origins of the word
    "window."  It's believed to be derived from the Old Norse, but the
    exact path is a bit up in the air. 
    
    Webster's will tell you it's probably from words meaning "wind"
    and "eye," but some scholars of Old Norse think it's from the Old
    Norse words for "wind" and "hole."  The windhole's purpose was to
    let the wind in and thus blow the smoke out, but before long the
    coincident function of letting light in took priority, and the
    more adventurous (and wealthier) took to covering their wind holes
    with greased parchment to let light in but keep wind out. 
    
    The word appears to have travelled with the Vikings to Ireland,
    where they beat up on the natives.  Then, having discovered their
    common interests, they all said, "Hey, this is fun!  Let's go out
    and beat up on the British together."  So the Vikings moved to
    Dublin, bringing their windholes with them, and the Vikings and
    the Irish proceeded to raid and pillage and occasionally settle
    all along the coasts of Britain, and soon British houses had
    windholes, too.  
    
    --bonnie

Further re `window'
    
    �    Webster's will tell you it's probably from words meaning "wind"
    �    and "eye," but some scholars of Old Norse think it's from the Old
    �    Norse words for "wind" and "hole."  
    But everyone seems to be agreed that `wind' comes into it somewhere.
    I am fascinated by the Spanish word `ventana', which has the Latin
    root `ventum' - `wind'. French and Italian fenetre and finestra are
    cognate with German Fenster, but Spanish (and Pg) seem to have got
    the Teutonic `wind' idea from somewhere and translated it. Maybe
    some barbarian invasion (of which there were several in Iberia before
    the Romans came along) brought it with them?
    
    b
    

    Isn't the German "Fenster" a Classical-era borrowing from Latin,
    as "Strasse" is?
    			-John Bishop

    Sounds possible to me. I had a feeling I shouldn't say it was cognate.
    
    b

    After reading .27 I began to wonder if wind-holes were Celtic. 
    Most Old Norse words also appear in some form in Old German, and
    if the German word is derived from the Latin, it would imply the
    northern Germans acquired their word somewhere else.  And  the
    area of northern Spain was settled by the same people as settled
    Britain, so they could have acquired the word and probably the
    concept when they started moving into the area, and then spread
    it. 
    
    But if, as John says, the present German word is a classical
    import, it doesn't say anything about the Old German word.  Does
    anyone know what it might have been?
    
    --bonnie

Re .28

"Strasse" comes from Latin? Hmm, I'd always thought it was a Germanic word,
cf "street", "straat" (Dutch), although the Italians have "strada".

I'll have to look in my Herkunftswoerterbuch for that, and "Fenster".

Ian

    Wonderful--someone has a German etymological dictionary!
    
    		-John Bishop

Fenster:
	MHG venster
	OHG fenstar
	Lat. fenestra

Strasse:
	MHG straze
	OHG straz[z]a
	LL strata
	Lat. sternere (stratum) to strew

Arsch:
	MHG ars
	OHG ars
	IDG *orso-s

Loch:
	MHG luhha, previous derivation unclear

    Now that we know about OHG and MHG windows, I'm inclined to think
    Bonnie's right to suspect some kind of Celtic influence. This would
    be quite like the derivation of French `copain'/`compagnon' [the
    Accusative, originally, but that's another rathole] from a translation 
    of the Celtic *GA HLAIBA [my Celtic spelling's not up to much, but you 
    get the idea] - which is yet another rathole.
    
    Is the vitality of a topic in inverse proportion to the number of
    ratholes it produces?
    
    b

    GA HLAIBA's Gothic, not Celtic (I looked it up: Elcock, The Romance
    Languages, pub'n dets in another note somewhere) - no reflection on 
    Bonnie's surmise, it's just that the details of my analogy were wrong; 
    if it happened in one language, the same sort of thing may have
    happened in another.
    
    b

	re .27

>    But everyone seems to be agreed that `wind' comes into it somewhere.
>    I am fascinated by the Spanish word `ventana', which has the Latin
>    root `ventum' - `wind'. French and Italian fenetre and finestra are
>    cognate with German Fenster, but Spanish (and Pg) seem to have got
>    the Teutonic `wind' idea from somewhere and translated it. 


	Yes, they got it from their common Indo-European root. 
	English window and Spanish ventana are cousins:


   	WENT(Indo-Eur) > Germanic, OHG, OS...> Wind(German)
			         	     > Wind(English) > Window (Engl)
          |
          |
	  _______      > Ventus (Latin) > Ventana (Sp)
				        > Vent (Fr)
				        > etc...

	
	I'm not sure how Latin fenestra (origin of Fr. fen�tre and German
	Fenster) relates to this picture, as I don't have a dictionary
	of Latin etymology these days. 
		
	roger						

    I suspected Proto Indo-European (as witness the title of .27) 
    though I didn't know the details - thanks Roger. But the reason
    for the fascination I mentioned was not that the words were
    cognate but that the window-making technology was mature enough
    to have a common word assigned to it before the languages diverged
    from their common root.
    
    b

    >But the reason for the fascination I mentioned was not that the words
    >were cognate but that the window-making technology was mature enough to
    >have a common word assigned to it before the languages diverged from
    >their common root.
    
    	Well, considering that window making consisted of knocking a hole
    	in the wall, having the technology is not that surprising.
    
    					andrew