Conference thebay::joyoflex

< Note 667.0 by IOSG::GARDNER "Eugene Gardner" >
                                   -< PP ? >-

    
    When the author of a letter is not able to sign in person, another
    could sign it 'PP' the author.
    
    What does PP stand for ?
    

    pp = per pro. Latin for something like "on behalf of"
    
    John

   		 Per procurationem - by the agency of

.3�< Note 667.3 by IOSG::GARDNER "Eugene Gardner" >
.3�
.3�
.3�   		 Per procurationem - by the agency of

    Well I never, I had always guessed that pp stood for persona proxima,
    Looks like I guessed wrong !

    re .3. Well waddaya know.
    
    I thought it was just per pro; when A signs pp B, the document is
    signed _per_ [by] A _pro_ [on behalf of] B. Still, I'll believe
    .3 from now on (except that `procuratio' is a rather active sort
    of agency - rather more active than a lot of pp notes I've signed).
    
    b

    
    As it happens, I had a perplexing moment with pp just the other day.
    I'm buying a house jointly with my wife, so most legal bits and pieces
    require both signatures. But as my wife wasn't with me, the solicitor
    told me to sign the contract 'pp' her full name. So my signature was
    supposed to stand for both myself, and 'me-in-place-of' my wife. 
    
    Surely it can't be both at once?
    
    
    	Richard.

    
    A bit of a rathole methinks, but I see no reason why you can't sign for
    both.  However as you would be the agent and your wife the principal,
    you would not be signing 'PP' her.  
    
    Your node is in the UK where the laws tend to favour men - although 
    wives are no longer counted as one of their husband's chattels I 
    beleive :-(
     

    re .6
    
    I tend to agree that one signature strictly speaking should not
    be used to represent you and your wife when it is just signed
    per pro.  I have been in this situation too and have either signed
    twice, or signed once with the subscript  "and per pro". The
    difference being the "and".
    
    Stuart
    
     

    Another thought along these lines of legality and all...
    
    Have you ever had a chance to really study some of those supposedly
    error-free legal documents ?
    
    I studied our last lot of contracts for our last housing transaction
    and strictly speaking, it was so full of loopholes because of errors
    I wouldn't want to take it to court if anyone protested.  It wouldn't
    hold water.  Obviously it was done "in the spirit of the transaction"
    and not the letter!
    
    Scary!
    
    

    
    Yep -- I get the impression that much of the legal paraphernalia
    is not designed to be read by a lay-person. That's just not done.
    Leagal professionals write to each other, and tend to abide by
    the unwritten rule whereby each can assume the other isn't slipping
    in anything tricky.
    
    This practice fell over in the U.K. recently, when an unscrupulous
    solicitor wrote contracts for some sort of leasehold on fish and chip
    shops with a vicious clause whereby the landlord could effectively
    raise rents whenver and by whatever amount he liked (for it was he).
    
    Many solicitors fell foul of these contracts, apparently because they
    didn't read them closely enough.
    
    Richard.

>    Leagal professionals write to each other, and tend to abide by
>    the unwritten rule whereby each can assume the other isn't slipping
>    in anything tricky.


    Very true ... but considering it is the very fact that we pay them
    (and pay them incredibly well thank you!) to look out for our interests
    this is pretty despicable really.  Not to mention the fact that
    they can be so  v e r y  s l o w  to do many of these things that
    it turns out they aren't really doing anyway!
    
    Here in Canada, the offer to puchase a house is called the Agreement of
    Purchase and Sale and forms the actual contract.  It is drawn up
    by the sales people and clients based on standard forms, and rarely
    is a lawyer involved until the committment is made.  There are certain
    standard "get-out" clauses in the agreement, but these can only
    be invoked if the problem causing the get-out can't be removed!
    So it is considerably more like Scotland!  Once the offer is made,
    that's it!  Some people insert a clause stating that the offer is
    subject to the inspection by a lawyer.
    
    

    Well I think it comes down to the fact that there is an anticorrelation
    between lawyers and semantic ability (just as I have observed that
    there is anticorrelation between doctors (General Practioner types)
    and diagnostic ability). The latter is a good argument for private
    medicine in the UK (DEC gives it you free (less tax) or you can
    take the money).

    > and diagnostic ability). The latter is a good argument for private 
    > medicine in the UK (DEC gives it you free (less tax) or you can    
    > take the money).                                                   
    
    I just knew there must be one argument in favour of private medicine --
    I just couldn't for the life of me think of it.
    
    Richard.

    Re .14  
    
    I've no idea where the term Rathole originates, but I recently
    encountered the term Minkhole.
    
    A Minkhole is either:
    
    A more luxurious i.e. intellectually challenging and/or fun, digression
    
    or:
    
    A digression which takes excessive or extravagant amounts of resource
    
    Nick

    
    The perpetrator of either of these holes is often referred to
    (particularly by those West of the pond) as a third variety.
    
    Richard.

    I heard a Minkhole defined as 
    
    "The same as a Rathole, but gives you a warm. comfortable feeling."
    
    IP
    

    Is not a minkhole a thing you get at a minastery?
    
    Good afterneen,
    
    Richard.

    This is a guess.
    
    I always assumed that the term `rathole' referred to a narrow argument
    or issue, that only a few people could participate in - on the analogy
    of a long narrow tunnel.
    
    I know almost nothing about rats, but it wouldn't surprise me if they
    didn't burrow (which seems to me to be what human rathole merchants
    do).
    
    b

    Back in Yorkshire, I heard that 'rathole' came from an old hunting
    term.. While waddling through fields with one's hunting dogs, in search
    of rabbits (for the eating thereof..), 'twas real damn annoying to the
    'poor' hunters to see their prize woofer hurtle off down a hole that no
    self-respecting rabbit would care to be seen in (!). Well, mr/ms rat
    therein received a hearty shock and decides to take a brisk walk, away
    from the dog....
    
    Anyway, the hunters, by now well miffed that their morning's hunt has
    been bu**ered by a dim-witted mutt, decide to waddle homewards, without
    any food... When they got back, to tirades of abuse coz of lack of
    victuals, and impending divorce.... these chaps could silently ruminate
    on how useful and completely wholesome it was for their dog to wander
    off down a rathole....
    
    And if you believe that, do you want to buy an allegro?
    
    R|tch^d 

    A rathole in an arguement or a series of notes is something that
    veres off the main subject of discussion.
    
    Rats do indeed tunnel and make long interconnecting tunnels where
    ever they can find food. 
    
    Bonnie
    
    (who had real ratholes in her chicken coop some years ago)

    If this note started out talking about X and ends up talking
    about ratholes, does this make the last few replies a meta-rathole?

    On the occasions when the rathole turns out to be very constructive,
    then it's called a gold mine.

a possible interpretation:

"He can't sign it himself right now, because he's in the bathroom."