Conference thebay::joyoflex

    Re .0 (Paul):
    
    >One of the questions brought up was how Buffalo got its name.
    >The answer given by the professor was that nobody really knows 
    >for sure.
     
    In the early days when the English colonies were getting started,
    there wwere a few, brave and lonely French-colonial fur trappers
    who set up their camps on the shores of Lake Erie.  They had only
    each other to see, so when a stranger arrived, they would greet
    him with cries of greeting, simultaneously presenting him with a
    jacket of buff leather.  Naturally, the greeting was called a "buff
    'allo."  From thence came the name.
    
    In the unlikely event it was a lady traveler, the lonely trappers
    would expose themselves to her.  That action was given the same
    name, as it happened.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

re: .0
    
    Um, not to cast aspersions on anyone's authority, but can you cite
    an authority for your assertion that there were never buffalo in
    the area of Buffalo? 
    
    The journals of various trappers and explorers in the 1820's and
    1830's indicate that said trappers and explorers believed that
    there were, or had once been, buffalo covering the entire midwest,
    from the foothills of the Appalachians all the way to the Rockies
    and as far north as the tundra.  
    
    Now it's possible these trappers and explorers were mistaken; folk
    etymology is not a new thing. However, I'm not giving in without a
    good authority. 
    
    --bonnie, who read a lot of those journals of said trappers and
    explorers for her American Literature course 

    Maybe it's from the French "buffe � l'eau".  Sounds feasible.
    
    Jeff.

     Maybe they where buffaloed into using the name?

>   The journals of various trappers and explorers in the 1820's and
>   1830's indicate that said trappers and explorers believed that
>   there were, or had once been, buffalo covering the entire midwest,
>   from the foothills of the Appalachians all the way to the Rockies
>   and as far north as the tundra.  
                          
>   However, I'm not giving in without a good authority.               
    
    Re: .2  ( Bonnie )
    
    I don't have a reference for you on my claim that there were never
    any buffalo in Buffalo.  
        
    As for the trappers and explorers, Buffalo is not in the midwest
    or in the foothills of the Appalachians.  It is a very unique city
    geographically as well as demographically.  ( I know I'm going to
    get a response to that claim.)  My definition of the midwest is any
    area that has rivers and streams that drain into the Mississippi
    or any other river that eventually drains into the Missiissippi.
    If you go about 50-60 miles south of Buffalo, there are some creeks
    ( or cricks ) (e.g. Conewango ) that drain into the Allegheny River.
    I think that the midwest edge and the foothills that you read about
    were the areas around eastern Ohio and NW Pa.  I don't think that
    the buffalo would go over "the hump" of the Appalachians.  Unless
    they wanted to see Niagara Falls.
    
    The theory I believe have to do with trappers though, the French
    variety.  The French term for "beautiful river" is "beau fleuve".
    It is believed that the French called what is now the Buffalo River
    "Beau fleuve".  And what has happened with so many French and Indian
    terms happened to Buffalo.
    
    
    - Paul
    
    

    By your definition, then, Chicago isn't in the Midwest, since it's
    on Lake Michigan, which connects to the St. Laurence eventually.
    But buffalo lived in Chicago once. Buffalo are also known to have
    lived north of the Great Lakes, in the basins of rivers that drain
    into Hudson's bay.  Buffalo have little or no difficulty with
    mountainous terrain.  They prefer plains, but if a need for food
    or water pushed them, crossing the hump that divides Buffalo from
    the rest of the world wouldn't be much of a trick. 
    
    [An aside -- though heavy hunting is normally blamed for the
    decline of the buffalo, there is considerable archaeological
    evidence that the number and range of the buffalo herds had
    already declined drastically before the arrival of the horse.
    There are remains of buffalo jumps in places in northern Ontario.] 

    This doesn't prove there were buffalo in Buffalo, however, only
    that they could have been. 
    
    "Buffalo" might well be the corruption of a French phrase. But
    "belle fleuve" isn't the greatest candidate -- most French words
    changed into English receive English pronunciation and lose
    unaccented syllables.  "Belle fleuve" would be more likely to
    become "bellflow" than "buffalo".  But since bellflow sounds
    similar to buffalo, and the trappers of all nationalities believed
    there were buffalo in Buffalo, the change might be reasonable. 

    I'm going to have to go back into my notes and see what I can
    come up with.     

    --bonnie 

    
    John J

    I think we might be able to turn this into a hit muscial comedy:
    
    There were buffalo in Buffalo
    Antelope on the range
    The bison in the basin
    Thought it very strange
    .
    .
    .
    
    
    
    Et cetera.
    
    --bonnie

    Re .6 (bonnie):
    
    > .. An aside -- though heavy hunting is normally blamed for the
    >decline of the buffalo, ...
     
    Will Cuppy suggested that people interested in the American Bison
    visit one at a zoo.  As he put it, "The hunters didn't make them
    nearly extinct.  The moths got them."
    
    But who reads Will Cuppy these days?  Alas ...
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

>       By your definition, then, Chicago isn't in the Midwest, since it's
>   on Lake Michigan, which connects to the St. Laurence eventually.
>   But buffalo lived in Chicago once.                             
      
    RE: .6
    
    By my "geographical" definition, Chicago isn't in the Midwest.
    Chicago and Buffalo are in the Great Lakes region.  Demographically,
    Chicago is midwestern and Buffalo has strong midwestern leanings.
    But that reaaly doesn't have much to do with buffalo.

        
    I wasn't trying to say that if a city wasn't in my definition of
    the Midwest then buffalo never existed there.  What I was trying
    to say was that the buffalo that these trappers and explorers observed
    were probably located only as far east as western PA.
    
    The French term for beautiful river that I was referring to was
    "Beau fleuve".  Which would make a better candidate for Buffalo
    than "Belle fleuve".
    
    
    -Paul "Glad I'm not from Intercourse, PA" Mazur
    

    Judging from the specimens I've seen in the Museum of Natural
    History, the moths may have gotten to the lions and the musk
    oxen, too.
    
    --bonnie 

    re: .10
    
    Oh, my, we're going thick and fast here . . .
    
    I am apparently not making my point very clear.
    
    Buffalo didn't restrict themselves to the Mississippi drainage.
    
    They are known to have lived in the St. Laurence valley and
    in the areas that drain into Hudson's bay as well.   Their
    range was not restricted by obvious geographic features.
    
    --bonnie

    I think we have a lot of related questions that are making this
    monumental question more difficult to answer.
    
    1) Is Buffalo in the Midwest ?  
          Not by my definition.
    2) Did buffalo ever exist in what is now Buffalo? 
          Maybe.  Bonnie sure has an arsenal of flea-bitten trivia that
          can't be ignored.
    3) Did buffalo exist in what is now Buffalo in the late 1700's 
       when Buffalo first settled ?
          Probably, not.  The buffalo mentioned in the travelers and
          explorers stories probably were located west of PA. 
    4) Did buffalo strictly exist in the midwest.
           No.
    5) Is this all a cruel hoax played by the founders of the city?
          It has to be.
                                              
     
    
    -Paul

    Re: .5
    
    Is Buffalo a "very unique" city?
    
    Or is it just unique?
    
    -bs

    
    Let's get our thoughts organized.
    
    Relative to the original question:
    	1) We don't care whether buffalos restricted themselves to the
    Mississippi and its tributaries or not.  We do care whether or not
    they were found East of them before or around the time that Buffalo
    was named.
                                             
    	2) It is pointless to argue on and on about what is "midwest."
    We only need to know what was the common understanding of "midwest"
    at the time that trappers or whoever said that they "ranged in the
    midwest."  (Assuming that is how it is actually put in specific
    texts).  And not only at the time of the trappers, but also at the
    time of the individuals who wrote and/or edited these historical
    treatises/documents.  Remember that "midwest" might mean something
    different to someone writing before this country stretched from
    one ocean to the other.
    
    	3)Are we assuming that the city had this name first, or the
    animal?  
    
    	4)If we visit our local library after 5:00 today, which I don't
    think anyone here actually has yet, it will probably be relatively
    easy to find some information about this.
    
    Just trying not to lose sight of the subject.
    
    Brian W.

    re: .15  (Brian)
    
    Boy oh boy, you are losing sight of a hidden topic in ALL notes
    files.   Geometry !!    If you notice, tangents abound, obtuseness 
    is a prerequisite, everbody has a new angle. and most statements
    are based on a set of fundamental "truths" that are assumed to be
    true.  ( Kind of like how I assumed people believed that there were
    never any buffalo in Buffalo. ) 
                                   
    
    -Paul "sometimes square but never complementary" Mazur
    

    Re .13 (Paul):
    
    >1) Is Buffalo in the Midwest ?  
    >      Not by my definition.
     
    Well, when I lived in Buffalo, there was a nearby fort (Fort Niagara?)
    that was called something like "the Western Frontier" fort.  When
    the Big 13 started the United States going, the least easternmost
    part of New York was on the Western Frontier of its day.  So yopu're
    right: Buffalo isn't a Midwestern city; it's a Western one!  [Hear
    that, Tombstone?]
    
    >3) Did buffalo exist in what is now Buffalo in the late 1700's 
    >   when Buffalo first settled ?
    >      Probably, not.
    
    Well, make up your mind. ;-) 
    
    >4) Did buffalo strictly exist in the midwest.
    >       No.
     
    Their existence, I gather, was rather permissive. :-)
    
    Re .14 (Bruce):
    
    >Is Buffalo a "very unique" city?
    
    Actually, that's a typo.  Buffalo's "unque," which is short for
    "unqueue."  Try to catch a bus there, and you'll appreciate it's
    _very_ unqueue. :-P
    
    Re .15 (Brian W.):
    
    >	3)Are we assuming that the city had this name first, or the
    >animal?  
     
    Probably the animal had the name before the city.  But the city
    had the name first before it acquired any of the animal, at least
    officially.  [Is there today an official Buffaslo for the City of
    Buffalo?  Inquiring minds couldn't care less. ;-)]
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Re: .17
    
    Thankqueue.

    re: .17, the western frontier
    
    The western frontier always begins twenty miles west of the
    last gas station :) :) :) 

    --bonnie, still Montanan in her heart

    A thought from afar....
    If this BUFFALO place was named by someone who claimed to be an
    American, then there's every chance it actually is an acronym!
    								Guy

I thought it is derived from Buffa-LOO, Buffa being short for "Opera buffa",

you know, that musical style that tended to become longer and longer, people
forcing to listen to it longer and longer, with perfectly natural consequences.

The style is extinct now.... 

Arie
(by the way, I live in a city called "Alphen"; anyone wants to give *that a
try?) 

    Re .20 (Guy):
    
    > ... then there's every chance it actually is an acronym!
    	      
    Such as Bison United For Foraging Aside Lake Ontario? 
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    According to the Buffalo and Erie County Historical Society, buffalo
    never existed in Buffalo.  Also, they claim that nobody knows for
    sure how Buffalo got its name but the leading theory is the 
    "Beau fleuve" theory.           
    
    I think that a little known theory will become more popular soon.
    An developer of the young city wanted this new town to be a
    manufacturing center, so they sent out brochures to the presidents
    of all the big companies. It stated:
    
    WANTED: Build Unlimited Factories.  Free American Land Opportunity
                                                   
    
    As for Alphen, I think that it was named after a Swiss chicken,
    but that theory has holes in it.
    
    
    -Paul

>  (by the way, I live in a city called "Alphen"; anyone wants to give
>  *that a try?) 

That's the place where all the women drive Alphen Romeos, isn't it?

					>>>==>PStJTT

-2
>......named after a Swiss chicken.
-1
>......where all the women drive Alphen Romeos, isn't it?

Or the place where only Swiss chickens are allowed to drive Romeo (crazy, that
is...)

I believe Alphen is developing a rich history here! ^-)

But I will give you a clue: calculate the distance from Alphen to Buffalo (in
femtoparsecs), compare it to the sum of the ASCII values of each letter in both
names, and you will see that Alphen and Buffalo are more related than you might
have guessed as first sight! 

Arie

    Re: .25                                 
    
    Is Buffalo between Alphen and Gambia ?  I really can't understand
    your clue.  It's all Greek to me.
           
    
    - Paul Mazuropolous

>  But I will give you a clue: calculate the distance from Alphen to
>  Buffalo (in femtoparsecs), compare it to the sum of the ASCII values of
>  each letter in both names, and you will see that Alphen and Buffalo are
>  more related than you might have guessed as first sight! 

Ah, I get it.  Alphen is the town where the Swiss make Vodka out of 
chickens and drink it while driving their buffalo to Alpine Rodeos.

						>>>==>PStJTT

    I thought Alphen was the plural of Alph.  (As in Ox -> Oxen, 
    VAX --> VAXen, etc.)

    While we're talking about Buffalo and other cities, I was wondering
    if anybody out there heard about the "Theory of Cities Whose Names
    End in Vowels ( esp. O )" ?
              
    Somewhere, a while ago, I heard that cities whose names end in vowels,
    especially O, have a smaller chance of having championship teams.
    Until recently, there were few sports teams that contadicted this
    theory.  There have been very few if any championship teams from
    Buffalo, Atlanta, Toronto (except the Leafs), San Diego, Chicago 
    (Yes there may have been SOME but that was over a long period of time)
                                                    
    I may not really believe this theory, but as a BuffalOnian, I need
    to know if there is any truth to this so that I can give up on the
    Bills and Sabres and move on to the Whalers and Patriots.
    
    
    Paul Mazur

    Yes, I suppose vowel preoccupation may limit the time available
    to become good at sport.                .......................Guy

I suppose there's something to that.  Take the Nashua Pirates --please. 
(ta-dum--rimshot)

Actually, if it worked, then I'd petition that Boston be renamed Bosto. 
At least then we wouldn't have these teams that take us right to the 
wire then flub it.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Better than never having been in it . . .
    
    --bonnie, whose first beloved sports team was the Seattle Pilots 
     

    re .30 et alia - sounds like something a good vowel movement could
    fix.
    
    len.
    

Re: .12

Buffalo in Europe, Bonnie?  Er, ahm, might you not have been thinking of 
the now-extinct aurochs, which obviously was the target of too many 
well-guided missiles?

"Hey, what are you hunting with today?"

"Aw, rocks."

And are you really a Montanan?  In that case, all is forgiven.  Mother 
says you can come home.  Ever been in Bozeman?  Let's see the Lexers 
produce a derivation for *that* one!  If anybody comes up with the story
about the Sioux archer who had three arms I'll personally attend to it. 

- Dick

    Europe had both wild cattle and bison.  The names are
    "aurochs" and "wisent".
    
    The former are woodland animals, the latter plains animals.
    
    Small populations of both exist today.  In the case of the
    aurochs, the animal has been "bred back" by crossings of
    domesticated cattle, as the aurochs was extinct in the wild,
    though there were half-breeds around.
    
    			-John Bishop    

    re: .34
    
    I'm FROM Bozeman.  Want to make something of it?
    
    Bozeman is named for John Bozeman, an early scout and explorer. As
    I recall, he guided the first wagon train to the area. And from
    what I've heard of the guy, he probably named it for himself.
    
    --bonnie 

RE .34
>......  Ever been in Bozeman?  Let's see the Lexers 
>produce a derivation for *that* one!

This is an easy one! It is Dutch, and it means "angry man".
Any specialities in the city? ;-)

Arie

    re: several ago
    
    If memory serves me, doesn't the Chicago River drain into the
    Mississippi basin?  I know, it's unnatural drainage :^).  So, is
    Chicago in the mid-West, or the Great Lakes Region?
    
    Bill

    
    re buffalo jumps
    
    I assume they competed in the buff...
    
    re where the West begins
    
    I have it on good authority that the West actually starts at a line
    running between Ft Wayne, Indiana, and the Tarrant County line
    between Dallas and Ft Worth.

	As no buffalo existed in that area, the first immigrant
    	decided to name the place: 

    	"How_come_there_is_no_buffalo_around_here"
    
	This initial name was later abbreviated in "Buffalo" as we know
    	it today.    	
    
    	roger

Re .-2
>    I have it on good authority that the West actually starts at a line
>    running between Ft Wayne, Indiana, and the Tarrant County line
>    between Dallas and Ft Worth.

     Does it really? I thought West started to the left of a line drawn from
     the North pole to the South Pole, passing through Greenwich, meantime.
     As it were.
     
     	Steve

>     Does it really? I thought West started to the left of a line drawn from
>     the North pole to the South Pole, passing through Greenwich, meantime.
>     As it were.
     
Your left or mine?

Gavin

PS My train of thought then ran:

You left a mine?
You left some wine?
Who left some wine?
Who laughed some time?

I wonder if there's a topic there, somewhere... No? Ho hum.

    Have all the buffalo gone west?

    The East is anything on the east side of Route 128.
    
    The Mid-West is anything between 128 and I-495.
    
    The West starts at 495 and ends at the Rockies.
    
    Beyond the Rockies is the Mythic Far West.
    
    --- jerry

    Re .22
    
>   Such as Bison United For Foraging Aside Lake Ontario?
    
    Surely that's:  Buffalo United For Foraging Aside Lake Ontario.
    Why omit any opportunity for recursion?
    
    The problem, of course, is that Buffalo is aside Lake Erie.
    
    However, it is the world's most Uncute City.
    Uh, maybe not the world's most.  The New World's most, anyway.

a late, tangential nit:
re .38 and others around .10 about Chicago and the Mississippi basin.

The Chicago river now drains into the Mississippi basin.
It originally drained into Lake Michigan, which is still the source of
drinking water for Chicago and many other towns, but the natives wanted to
use the river as a sewer, so they diverted it to join most of the other
flowing water in the area.  The Sanitary and Ship Canal connects the
revised Chicago River to the DesPlaines River. It still carried a fair
amount of barge traffic the last time I saw it.  Trust Chicago to have
a profitable open sewer.

The DesPlaines River flows within 1/2 mile 
of Chicago and through many of the city's suburbs and without
any assist joins the Illinois and ultimately the Mississippi.

The North Branch of the Chicago River and the DesPlaines River are about 3 
miles apart, a reasonable walk, even with a canoe and other gear.
Chicago was a popular portage area between the Great Lakes and the 
Misssissippi basin, but not the most popular one.  That is why
there is Portage, Indiana.

Now to return to this notes file, already in progress:
There are occasional debates in Chicagoland about DesPlaines vs Des Plaines
vs Desplaines.  It is still an unimaginative name.

    I guess it's obvious what Des Plaines, IL and Las Vegas, NV have in
    common...
    
    Roy