Conference thebay::joyoflex

    Six of one, and half dozen of another.

    or is it

    Six and one half dozen of another.

    or is it

    six mumble half dozen mumble

    Re: .0
    
    'By and large' is a nautical metaphor.  I read (but forgot most
    of) a piece in Cdr Peter Kemp's _Oxford_Companion_to_Ships_and_the
    _Sea_. As I remember it, 'by' is some kind of measurement in one
    direction (perhaps fore and aft) and 'large' is some kind of
    measurement in the direction at right-angles to 'by'.  So 'by
    and large' means 'every which way'.
    
    Misheard phrases
    ================
    
    This is one that doesn't quite qualify (because my problem was
    with meaning rather than spelling):
    
    'Give us this day our daily braird'.  I spent ages, before I
    could read a prayer book, wondering what a 'braird' was and
    why I should want one _every_ day.
    
    b

For all intensive purposes ...

    "your" for "you're"
    

    "If far were you" for "If I were you"

    I heard a story about someone who moved to Long Island and was charmed
    by the expression "a nominal egg".  ("It cost a nominal egg.")
    It was several years before she discovered that, without the accent,
    the phrase was "an arm and a leg".

    Re: .2 (By and large)

    The expression comes from the orders given to helmsmen on sailing
    ships.  It was important to keep both the correct course and the wind
    in the sails.  Experienced helmsmen could be given the order to "sail
    close and short course zero-three-five", meaning steer ten degrees
    either side of 035 to keep the wind in the sails. Inexperienced
    helmsmen would be given the order "sail by and large zero-three-five",
    meaning thirty degrees either side of base course.

    re: .2
    
    	There are lots of classic religious ones.
    
    "Gladly the cross-eyed bear"
    
    "Pity mice in Plicity" (where is Plicity?)

<    	There are lots of classic religious ones.
<	"Gladly the cross-eyed bear"
<	"Pity mice in Plicity" (where is Plicity?)

Or how about the fat man in the nativity scene, Round John Virgin.

My son kept asking me who Effison Frank was. He'd heard about him in a comedy
routine about a telephone operator. Of course, that was "F", as in Frank.

Dave

Speaking of

	"six of one, a half dozen of another"

try saying this instead, it throws the opponent for a loop:

	"half of one, six dozen of another"

/Eric

    Re .7: actually its "Gladly my cross-eye bear". If anybody wants
    the whole joke, I'll supply it.

    'Off one's own bat' [a reference to cricket, I reckon] often
    comes out as 'off one's own back'.
    
    In cricket, there's a certain value in 'keeping your end up'
    while the other batsman does all the scoring 'off his own bat'.
    I suppose 'backs' came into it because someone doing all the
    work 'puts their back into it' and everything is 'on their shoulders'.
    
    b

    
    "Crap of Dawn" for Crack of Dawn
    

    What I don't understand is why all the local radio stations assume
    that I'd want to hear a weather forecast from a meaty urologist.
    
Lew Lasher

       My favorite:  "Do you see what I'm saying?"
       (I did'nt know you could see spoken words)
    
       Or when you answer the phone and someone says "is that you?"
       Heck no I'm just a figment of your immagination!
    
       In jolly old England the expression "Will you knock me up" has
       a different meaning than it does here in th US.
    
    Ray

< In jolly old England the expression "Will you knock me up" has
< a different meaning than it does here in th US.

Speaking of British expressions, would somebody care to explain the phrase
spoken by the defendant in Gilbert & Sullivan's "Trial by Jury"...

	"Be firm, be firm my pecker."

Dave

re .-1:

>Speaking of British expressions, would somebody care to explain the phrase
>spoken by the defendant in Gilbert & Sullivan's "Trial by Jury"...
>
>	"Be firm, be firm my pecker."
>


Sure.  He's talking about his heart.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

Larry

    Re .16, .17:
    
    I'd always heard that in British English, "pecker" = "heart," on
    the basis that it had a regular beat.
    
    In American English, it means, of course, the penis.  I'm told that
    in Brisish English, a "willy" is an euphemism for that organ, while
    "having the willies," in American English means "being frightened"
    or "feeling creepy."  What a fascinating series of misunderstandings
    could come out of mixups on those words....
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    I've not heard "pecker" used for "heart", but "ticker" yes.
    You're right about the "euphemism" (sic - why a euphemism?), but
    we also have the phrase "having the willies" with exactly the same
    meaning as you.  We also have a phrase "keep your pecker up" meaning
    "don't be disheartened" - now there's one to play with! :-)
    
    Jeff

You know, I may have been wrong in .16.  The office copy of the American 
Heritage (grimace!) has three definitions for "pecker".  The second is "Pluck, 
Courage (chiefly British)".

I'll leave the other two definitions for those of you who get off by looking 
up dirty words in dictionaries.  :-)

Larry

Meanwhile, back at the base note and early replies. For:

	 "six and a half of one ...." or whatever
try:
         "six and two threes"
         
its much easier to say, and spell.

And another thing. 

	"One foul swoop"  instead of "One fell swoop"
	
I hate when that happens.

	Steve

<	"One foul swoop"  instead of "One fell swoop"
	
Pardon the digression, but... when a hawk attacks a chicken, could that be
described as "one fowl stoop"?

Dave

    Re .16, .17, 18:
    
<    In American English, it means, of course, the penis.  I'm told that
<    in Brisish English, a "willy" is an euphemism for that organ, while
<    "having the willies," in American English means "being frightened"
<    or "feeling creepy."  What a fascinating series of misunderstandings
<    could come out of mixups on those words....
    
In my youth, we used the word "willy" as a euphemism for W.C. which is itself
a euphemism for the "John" which is...(is it true that that one derives from...
never mind). Therefore, "willy" can be used in lieu of the "loo", which is a
British euphem....

Dave

    re: .21 & .22   
    
    if 
       "one fell swoop" &
       "one foul swoop" &
       "one fowl stoop" 
    then wouldn't a warped individual attempting copulation with a chicken
    be "one fowl shtupp"?
    
    
    howzat?
    
    rgdz,
       

    The phrase isn't "one fell swoop," but "at one fell swoop."  The
    word 'fell' in this case means a deadly blow and 'swoop' refers
    to the action of a bird descending on its prey.  The phrase means
    to accomplish a great deal with one good effort.
    
    It is often spoonerized as "at one swell foop."
    
    Bernie

One that annoys me:

     "Message Router"  where "Route" is pronounced to rhyme with "Trout"

I will be prepared to accept that pronunciation only when I hear Chuck Berry
singing "Get your kicks on Rowt (pr.) 66"


p.s   Over in Australia the natives get paranoid about this: they tend to
      avoid the use of "route" in daily conversation - the verb is used as
      a euphemism for the act of sexual intercourse !  Hence the "Digital"
      style of pronunciation of "Message Router" is readily accepted.

p.p.s.     Pity the poor inhabitants of one of the Western Suburbs. It was
      obviously named in a more innocent time. Its name ? "Rooty Hill" 8-))

p.p.p.s.   I've never tried buying any since I got here, so I can't vouch
      for the accuracy of the information, but I was told that self -
      adhesive tape; usually known as "Sellotape" or "Cellotape" or "Scotch
      Tape"; is known over here as "Durex".  If so I shall never be able to
      buy a roll with a straight face.  Back in England "Durex" is used as
      a generic term for a condom  8-))

               Re.25
               You're right.
               To fell was also used meaning to slaughter animals
               and a feller was a killer of animals in a slaughterhouse
               in Victorian England.
    
                                           Max

    re: .26
    
    Yes, and yesterday I was Routing for the Redskins!
    
    Jeez!!  This is the deepest tap-route I've ever pulled!
    
    I'm goin' down to the route cellar to get me some corn-sqeezin's.
    
    
    howzat?
    
    rgdz,

    I suppose that "At one fell swoop" could also be the wording of
    a military dispatch:
    
    			At one o'clock this morning, General Swoop
    			was defeated and his headquarters occupied by
    			the enemy.
    
    Bernie

    Re: .25
    
    So did Shakespeare have it wrong? When MacDuff refers to his
    family (who he speaks of as `all my little chickens' - hence 'swoop')
    as having been killed `at one fell swoop' I don't think he means
    that their killer `accomplished a great deal with one good effort' ;-}
    I never studied the text of MacBeth; but I'm surprised that in
    this context Shakespeare meant `fell' in any sense other than
    the one derived from Middle English `fel' - defined in
    Webster's as `fierce, cruel'.
    
    Bob

    It seems to me exactly what Shakespeare meant.  Isn't MacDuff saying
    that much (evil, in this case) was done at one time.  And isn't
    a deadly blow often a fierce or cruel blow.  [Incidentally, an older
    meaning for _fel_ is deadly or death-causing.]
    
    Bernie

    I'm happy with `deadly or death-causing'. My point, very unclearly
    made, was that in that quote `fell' is an adjective (unlike `deadly
    blow')
    
    ps
    
    It should be Lay on, Macknowles! My typo - Macbeth and Macduff
    both have no cap. in all editions I've seen.

    Malice aforethought
    ===================
    
    I often see this as `malice of forethought'; I have a feeling
    some people interpret the phrase that way, regardless of how it's
    spelt.
    
    Bob

    I thought this note was for phrases you say all the time but never
    write.  When, by chance, you write them down, they look really weird.
    What about:  "From here on out..."?
    
    Spd

    even Steven
    
    or is it
    
    even steven
    
    or is it
    
    even Stephen
    
    or is it   
    
    Evan Stephan

Even Stephen doesn't know that one, but I suspect that it is
"even Steven" for the sake of alliteration and repetitive spelling

		Stephen.

    I've always been told that it's "Even-Steven."
    
    Problem here's that I _think_ "Steven" was once "Stephen" (even
    as _this_ Stephen spells his first name) but evolved for easir
    spelling.
    
    Maybe it once was the first two names of a Russian, Ivan Stefan
    ("Ivan" is pronounced in Eastern Europe often as "E-von").
    
    Nobody may ever know....
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Maybe its "deep and crisp and EVEN" as in "on the feast of SPEPHEN"?

    I had an aunt (kinda tetched in the head) who had a brother named
    Steven - spelled S-T-E-V-E-N.  When asked why her family hadn't
    used the original spelling, she replied that if one pronounced it
    as spelled, the person's name was STEP-HEN.
    
    

Re: .39

So when asked how he spelt his name, he could reply, "I'm an `even' 
Steven," yes?
					>>>==>PStJTT

re .39

>    I had an aunt (kinda tetched in the head) who had a brother named
>    Steven - spelled S-T-E-V-E-N.  When asked why her family hadn't
>    used the original spelling, she replied that if one pronounced it
>    as spelled, the person's name was STEP-HEN.
    
Dangerous way to treat English. It doesn't take long to discover that
pronunciation and spelling have very little to do with each other in this
language. Just look at note 428.0 for a few examples.

		Stephen		(spelt with a PH, unless shortened to Steve,
				 and pronounced as if it had a V, which
				 it doesn't! Thank you very much)

    a friend of mine here taught english as a second language to
    spanish-speaking people.  Every time she said something like "I
    before E except after C", they would ask excitedly, "is this a rule,
    teacher, is this a rule?".  She would then be forced to dash their
    hopes by saying, "yes, but there are exceptions".  
    
    Oh the trials and tribulations faced by those learning one of the
    most confusing languages on Earth (let along all the slang that's
    used these days...)
    
    -Jody
    

    How about:
    
    	It's a doggy dog world
    
       		for
    
         ...dog-eat-dog...

    
    It's "six of one , half a dozen of the other"
                                       ^^^^^
    
    
    Snuff to make you sick !   :^)(^:
    
    
    John J
    
    

    How about
    
    A whole nother

    In the Chronicles of Narnia (The Magician's Nephew, specifically)
    they go back to the beginning of Narnia, and someone brings an evil
    into the world.  Someone says as much, and all the other creatures
    wonder what kind of a creature "a neevil" is.
    
    

    As in, "If you're talking VAXstations, that's a whole nother ballgame."
    
    Spd

    Re .46, .48:
    
    Well, "an apple" started out as "a napple," I've heard.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    "A norse , a norse , my kingdom for a norse"
    
    "Will a nelephant do ?"
    
    "Abso flamin' lutely"
    
    
    John J
    

    This reminds me of a bus trip I once took.  I went from Decatur,
    IL to Macomb, IL by way of Springfield - and back.   The whole time
    I referred to Decatur as Catur, as in, "Is this the bus that goes
    to Catur?", just to see if anyone noticed.  Nobody missed a beat.
    I wouldn't be surprised to hear they'd changed the name of the city
    by now.  (This from a city in which the main drag is a street called,
    Eldorado, pronounced  El-dor-AY-doe, while the car by the same name
    warrants the conventional pronunciation.  Go figure.)
    
    Spd

The "Decatur" thing reminds me of a trooo story:

	A young pregnant couple have the misfortune of being in
	a terrible automobile accident on the way to the hospital.

	Both parents are in a coma when the baby arrives, so the
	doctors call in the next of kin, the husband's brother,
	to name the baby.

	When the parents awake from their coma, and are told of
	the naming by the father's brother, they almost simultaneously
	shriek in horror, "OH NO, HE'S AN IDIOT, I WONDER WHAT
	HE NAMED IT ?".

	The doctor explains that actually the baby was twins, a boy and
	a girl, and the brother named both of them.

	"OH NO, HE'S AN IDIOT, WHAT DID HE NAME THEM".

	"Well", says the Doctor, "he named the girl Denise".

	"Thank God", sighs Dad, "a reasonable name, and what did
	he name the boy ?"


	"The boy ?", asks the doctor, stalling.  "Oh, he named
	him Denephew".


	badah bum


/Eric

    `Hole-and-corner' is a good old English word (SOED dates it back to
    1835).  People who use it nowadays (meaning, correctly, `secretive -
    such as might be conducted in a hole or a corner') tend to be
    politicians (who are usually claiming that what they've been up to
    wasn't). But I've noticed, especially in the last 10 years or so, that
    they often say `hole in the corner'. 
    
    I think this may be related to a tendency to garble groups of words
    linked by a nasal sound; `ifs, ands or buts' is very common, and
    probably widely accepted, and wiseguys often `correct' it to `ifs and
    buts' - but as I remember the phrase started out as `ifs, ans or buts'
    (in which `ans' isn't a typo ;-) 
    
    b
    b

    Re: .53
    
    > 'ifs, ans or buts'
    
    I believe that your were right the first time with 'ifs, ands, or
    buts'.
    
    The connotation is that someone is issuing an unqualified untimatum
    and will accept no compromise propositions (ifs), no additional
    arguments (ands), or further protestations (buts).
    
    Something along the lines of Judge Wapner when a plaintiff tries
    to get in some additional testimony while the judge is giving his
    decision.

    
    	RE: .52
    
    	Reminded me of a story I heard when Idi Amin was running Uganda.
    
    	The reporter said "What will you do about defense?"
    
    	Amin said "De man wid de nails i�
     is coming in the morning to fix it!"
    
    I hope this will come out alright, my modem hung up in the middle
    of entering my reply!
    

    Saw a good one in another conference today (don't know whether the
    author really thought it was spelled this way or was the victim of a
    typo). Paraphrased, "If I'd known how sad the show was going to be, I'd
    have been balling my eyes out."
    
    I suppose that's _one_ way to cheer up...
    
    -b

    	I was tempted to put "allegating" (also seen in a notes file) into
    the challenge to define words, but since in context it was almost
    certainly a mistake for "alleging" I thought it wouldn't be fair ;-)

My daughter (11) just showed us a good one in a story the other day ...

"She will haft to keep the pet warm."

She was quite surprised to discover how this was really meant to be!

Stuart

    -b, I blame my more nightmarish interpretation of that phrase on the
    Very Bad Influences of George Bataille's "Story of the Eye" and John
    Wilmot's viciously ugly love-song parody which begins "I swive as well
    as others do / I'm young, not yet deformed...."
    
    Ray

    allegate:	v.i., to slither about on one's belly in the swamp.  see
    		allegator.

here are a few more phrases that don't translate easily to the spelling 

 eat to your heart's content               ("until" or "till" your heart's
                                            content)

 i was suppose to wash the car yesterday   ("supposed to")

 we are supposably getting this for free   ("supposedly")

 if i had my druthers, i'd be out playing golf!   (i'm guessing this came from
                                                   if i had my "i'd rathers"..)

>> if i had my druthers, i'd be out playing golf!   (i'm guessing this came from
                                                   if i had my "i'd rathers"..)

"druthers" is an expression I first came across in the book "Pollyanna" - it 
may well have been around for longer than yet.  As you guessed, it's a 
corruption of "I'd rather"  but it's a corruption I've been using since I read 
the book and fell in love with the word.  :^)


\C