Conference thebay::joyoflex

There are much more serious misinterpretations: my brother married a Brit,
and taught there for a year. Early on in his stay he brought party conversation
to a standstill by telling about his coaching style with the girl's
basketball team. When they do well, he will, as he said, "pat their fannies
and tell them so." Later that evening he learned from his still-angry wife
that while a Canadian fanny may be a backside of either gender, a British
fanny is a frontside, and definitely feminine. He was not invited to coach
a team for the remainder of his stay.

To balance out, there is a British expression meaning to come around to
your residence and call for you there, as in "Well, Brenda, I'll knock
you up at seven, and then we can go out to dinner." Let the speaker
beware.

Rob

re: .1  

I recently encountered the latter 'slang swap' -  A friend of mine from
Ireland and I were making plans to meet some women early the next morning
to go skiing,  and he was to drop by to pick them up.  He turned to them
and asked "What time should I drop by to knock you up, then?".  There was
an arkward silence, then the girls pretended not to have heard that...
later I explained why to him!   He said that in Ireland it means to knock
on someone's door and wake them up.  

He also found certain American slang amusing,  in particular phrases like
"get to the root of the problem"  "put down roots"  and "root beer".

Apparently, over there "root" is colloquial for "penis" !

I've heard that rooted directories get a few laughs in Australia, too.

    Nigel Conliff tells of the time that he asked a secretary in a rather
loud voice for a rubber.  Brought the room to a standstill.  Turned out he
wanted an eraser.

tlh

	The British trade name for condoms is "Durex"
	The Australian trade name for adhesive tape is "Durex"

	Now picture the Australian in the crowded London stationery store..

	_Shop_Assistant_ "You want a roll of *WHAT*?"

    british				american
    
    don't drive on the pavement,	don't drive on the sidewalk,
    drive on the road.			drive on the road.

    i'll finish hoovering,		i'll finish vacuuming,
    then i'll be ready.			then i'll be ready.

    that's right up my street.		that's right up my alley.
    
    my new manager (i'm american, just transferred to england) was
    describing this tv show to me, to paraphrase him. 
    
    "...these two blokes were chatting up the same bird...one bloke motored
    off to get his hang-gliding kit on."  he finished the story by warning
    me that if i watched it, i might not understand all the slang english
    expressions! 
    
    some of my favourite british words are:
    thingammy	= thingamajig		(sp on both?)
    wanky	= goofy, or crazy
    stroppy	= obstreperous (sp?)  obviously derived therefrom
    blinkin', flippin' = mild forms of damn, or similar.  e.g. "this
    damn vax"  "this blinkin' vax", "this flippin' vax"
    
    the difference between america and britain.  (well, i'm getting
    a good lesson, but this story sums up what i've learned so far)
    
    in the kitchen of the training center in highfield park, heckfield,
    hants, there is a sign on a closet which says, "misuse of the mops
    contravenes the health laws."  think about how that would be expressed
    in american.  "don't touch the mops."  "don't play with the mops."
    "don't fuck with the mops."  we've got a way to go to get back
    the class and style we must have lost somewhere around 1776.

  						dd

    Re: .6  Don't use this word in polite company :-)  I know the verb,
    and the derived noun, but never heard it used adjectivally.  Perhaps
    you're in the North.  They're a bit strange up there ...
    
    On the other hand "wonky" is a good word, used to describe something
    that isn't functioning correctly, or insecure.  For example "My
    TV set's gone wonky", or "Don't sit on that chair, it's a bit wonky".
    
    You should watch that TV program(me) you mentioned ("Only fools and
    horses") - it's a good laugh.
    
    Jeff.

    I wonder if my British English is good enough.  How about a little
    (albeit contrived) story?  Being a Yank, some of these British words
    are a bit different in meaning.
    
       I got off the plan and went to hire [rent] a car.  After a short
       time on the motorway [freeway], I heard a noise from under the
       bonnet [hood].  It may have been bad petrol [gas].  

       I arrived at my flat [apt.].  The ice box was empty so I went
       out to the food hall [supermarket].  In the meat department,
       there was some nice gammon [ham] but the bangers [sausage] looked
       better.  I really wanted some legumes [vegetables], though. 
       The aubergines [eggplant] were fresh, as were the courgettes
       [squash]. 
       
       In the off-license [liquor store], I decided to buy some lager [beer]
       and a bottle of bitter [real ale], which I drank while the meat
       was on the cooker [stove].  Later that evening, it got chilly,
       so I lit the 2-rod fire [electric heater] and watched the Beeb
       [BBC] on the telly [TV].
    
    Anybody wanna fix this or go on?
        fred

'Corrections', but only my humble opinion, are in round brackets.

Explanations refer to line numbers
        
1    I got off the plane and went to hire [rent] a car(motor).  After a 
2    short time on the motorway [freeway], I heard a noise  from  under 
3    the bonnet [hood]. It may have been bad petrol [gas].
    
4    I arrived  at  my flat [apt.].  The ice box(fridge) was empty so I 
5    went  out  to  the  food  hall   [supermarket].     In   the  meat 
6    department(section),  there  was  some  nice  gammon [ham] but the 
7    bangers [sausage] looked better.   I  really  wanted  some legumes 
8    [vegetables],  though.    The aubergines [eggplant] were fresh, as 
9    were the courgettes [squash].
       
10    In  the  off-license  [liquor store](offie), I decided to buy some 
11    lager [beer] and a bottle of bitter  [real  ale],  which  I  drank 
12    while the meat was on the cooker [stove](hob). Later that evening, 
13    it got  chilly(nippy),  so  I  lit(switched  on)  the  2-rod  fire 
14    [electric  heater](2  bar  fire) and watched the Beeb [BBC] on the 
15    telly [TV](box).
    
  Explanations
1	Motor as 'wanna buy a motor John'.
4	We keep frozen food in a freezer, cool food in the fridge
5	In supermarkets we have sections, in department stores we have depmts.
7	Aint legumes french for something
8	Aubergine or eggplants, we have them both
10	We nip down to the 'offie on the corner'
12	We have cookers, the whole thing, or hobs with 4 rings on
13	Nippy is chilly, 'brass monkey weather is freezing'
13	Lit, did you put a match to it
14	2 bar fires are those rod element type, usually 1kw per bar
15	We also watch the 'box' here. Also known as the 'idiots lantern'        

    David Banks (who is having a row with his  daughters  teacher  for 
    putting a Z in apologise and authorise).
    
    

< Note 31.9 by TMCUK2::BANKS "Rule Britannia" >

>    David Banks (who is having a row with his  daughters  teacher  for 
>    putting a Z in apologise and authorise).
    
 row [argument]   

    To be fair, we do have Food Halls in the UK.  They are the food
    departments of some department stores, for example Harrods of
    Knightsbridge and Dingles of Brizzle.

    Re: .11
    
    > Dingles of Brizzle.
    
    If thee casn't spell Brissle proper, then thee din or'er of troid.
    (Old chep)
    

    RE: .9
    
    I suppose your daughter's got a new teacher by now, but just for
    the record Hart's Rules (style bible for Oxford University Press
    and The Times) say that where there's a choice between -ise and
    -ize, -ize wins.  People who use -ise aren't wrong, but they're
    wrong to insist on it as the only right spelling.
    
    But I advize against words like televize.

    We get to see many British television shows in this country now
    and we get to read many contemporary British novelists so that it
    is usually possible from context to translate uniquely British terms
    into American English.  I know, for example, that a "sticking plaster"
    is a bandaid, that a "car park" is a parking lot, and (thanks to
    Dick Francis) a "horse box" is a horse trailer.  But there is one
    word that I have not been able to translate.  I thought that if
    I heard it often enough, its (American) meaning would become obvious
    (like the "boot" and "bonnet" of a car).  That has not worked; its
    meaning is no clearer to me now than when I first heard it.  I give
    up.  Perhaps the Brits out there can help me.  The word is "pudding."
    
    At times it seems to mean what we call a dessert; someone will say,
    "What's for pudding?"  I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean "dessert"
    exactly; no one ever says "How about some nice apple pie for pudding."
    Here, pudding is a specific kind of dessert that has several flavors
    or varieties, but that can't be your meaning because you don't say
    "What KIND of pudding are we having?"  At times it seems that pudding
    is somewhat like a junior course of a meal.  It isn't the main part and
    it isn't the dessert; it's somewhere between the two and only certain
    kinds of things (puddings) are allowed to be served there.  But if
    that's the case, why don't we know more about over here.  We watch your
    television shows and read your books but we haven't noticed anything
    as important as a wholly new course that we don't have.  We haven't
    seen any pudding cookbooks or columns labeled "Pudding" on menus. 
    It is all very confusing.
    
    There is, in short, nothing in your usage of the word "pudding"
    that fits any of my categories.  What the hell is it?
    
    Bernie

A recently formed Pudding Committee has spent several minutes eating
sandwiches and pasties, drinking tea and deliberating on the term "pudding".

A digest of the Proceedings follows:

Pudding has various meanings.

It is used generically as a word for the course following the savoury
course(s). "What's for pudding?" could elicit a reply
of "Fruit salad", and nothing would be amiss, unless you don't like fruit
salad. This usage is probably limited to the North, and is older, we believe
than the neologism "dessert".

Strictly, a pudding contains flour, milk and eggs, though not necessarily
all of these, and usually other stuff as well. These other stuffs could
steak and kidney, or rice, or jam, or syrup or fruit or wetted dry fruit.
Puddings may be cooked in a variety of ways, but are always cooked in some
way.

Pudding is also a term of endearment.

Phillip, Bryan, Andrew and Gill.

    Oops.
    
    We forgot about some particularly Northern delicacies which don't
    fit our rules.
    
    These are black pudding, white pudding and pease pudding.
    
    Black pudding is congealed blodd and fat in a sausage like skin.
    This should be fried and served with English mustard.
    
    White pudding is something even more disgusting, and is probably
    made from white blood cells only. White pudding looks like black
    pudding.
    
    Pease pudding is made from peas and is a kind of mildly spiced splodge
    on the side of your plate. Bright green.
    
    The Autralians have various colourful euphemisms for vomitting.
    We shall now go and play the whale, etc.
    
    Phillip et al.

    MLNOIS::HARBIG
                  Phillip et al.
                  Could you explain to our American colleagues what
                  it means to be in the pudding club ?
                  
                  I will only tell them that it it is not a society
                  of dessert gourmets!
                  
                                             Max

    So now where do you place "Yorkshire Pudding"?  In many American
    restaurants they will serve "Roast beef with Yorkshire Pudding".
    The "Pudding" turns out to be what we would call a _Popover_ and
    appears to be a hollow pastry backed in a muffin tin (and the inside
    often appears somewhat sticky and underdone.)  But they I read in
    James Herriot's books about a farmhouse dinner in which a "thick
    slab of Yorkshire pudding is served, covered with a rich brown gravy."
    
    Is it possible that there are local variations to what the English call
    Yorkshire Pudding?
    

    The Yorkshire pudding recipe I have from my mother's family (which
    comes from somewhere north of York and south of Scotland) doesn't turn
    out anything resembling a popover; it's more like what we would call
    "dressing" or "stuffing" if it came out of the cavity of a roasted
    bird.  It's quite sticky and heavy because its effect depends on
    soaking up all the pan juices.  
    
    It's delicious but the Heart Association must groan every time I
    cook it. . . .
    
    --bonnie 

    Yorkshire Pudding. This is made from plain flour, egg, milk, water
    and a little salt and pepper. This is beaten in a bowl, traditionally
    with the hand and then left to stand for 20-30 mins. Beef dripping
    is put in a roasting tin and pre-heated until giving off blue smoke.
    The batter is added put all in an oven and leave till light and
    delicious. Some people eat this with Beef etc but it should really
    be eaten as starter course served only with gravy with onions in
    and English mustard.
    Anything which suggests the description "thick slab" is not a Yorkshire
    pudding and should be placed in the nearest dustbin (trashcan).
    The pudding should be thick and fluffy.
    James Herriot was a Scot.
    It's ingredients fit the definition of pudding given earlier.
    
    Andrew Dodd from Harrogate in Yorkshire.

    "Chateau Chunder is for those heavily into regurgutation."

    	- Monty Python, "Australian Table Wines"
    
    I don't understand. There's a joke here somewhere. Could
    an Aussie or Kiwi explain? What does 'Chunder' mean?
    

    I'm neither an Aussie nor a Kiwi, but "chunder" means "projectile
    vomiting." Usually from having drunk too much alcohol, or vice versa. 
    
    	Jon

    When someone on the upper deck of the ship hangs his head over
    the rail, a warning is issued to those below:  Watch under!
    
    Sid

    Whilst not necessarily being in favour of the use of these words
    in polite society, I am quite prepared to share them with Joyoflexers
    everywhere; some Oz for vomitting:
    
    To play the whale
    To go the big spit
    To laugh at the ground
    To throw a map
    To [do?] a technicolour yawn
    To talk to God on the big, white telephone
    To cry Ralph, or Hughie
    To chunder (Derivation given in -1 is correct)
    
    E chi ha una torta nel forno e un membro del Circolo del Budino,
    non e vero, Max?
    
    Filippo

    MLNOIS::HARBIG
                  Re .24
                  The fact that the only Italian equivalent is a cake
                  makes it sound positively elephantine :-).
                                                            Max

    Re: .15
    
    My thanks to the Pudding Committee.  The English use of "pudding"
    is much clearer to me now.  I will not say that I have mastered
    the word, but I am no longer thoroughly confused.  Let's see if
    I have it right: "pudding" is, on the one had, a course during which
    one may eat any manner of dessert-like dishes, including puddings
    in the English sense (as you described them) and other more or less
    sweet things like fruits, pies, and ices.  In addition to the course
    pudding, there is the food pudding; in this sense "pudding" is a
    generic term that denotes a cooked food of flour, eggs, etc.  Is
    that correct?
    
    "Pudding" as a term of endearment was a complete surprise to me. 
    How is it used?  Do you say, as we might in America, "Hot damn,
    I'm going to see my pudding tonight."?  Or do you use it in a more
    direct manner: "I'm very sorry Pudding; I didn't realize it was
    my turn to worm the dog."  It will do, I suppose, but it isn't as
    effective as some of our terms of endearment.  In some isolated
    locales, for example, one might hear "Don't worry, Lamb Chop, I'll
    get you a new stilson wrench."  Curious that "pork chop" is never
    used that way.
    
    Bernie

    Re: .-1
    
    First point:
    	
    	I think your definition is quite full and accurate (and 
    	probably as sensitive as most British Eng. speakers' 
    	understanding of the word 'pudding').
    
        One final point, not mentioned by the Pudding Committee: the
        word is at the centre of a lot of connotations of CLASS -
        involving pudding, dessert, sweet, lunch, luncheon, dinner
        tea, and probably lots more.  This shows the limitations of
        dictionaries; there are words that you can't use properly
        without a certain background of history, literature...
        what-have-you. 
       
        I don't want to contribute to this minefield, by saying which
        word is used when to mean what.  But it's less contentious
        (for speakers of Br Eng who don't have it as their mother
        tongue, and for us lot as well, unless we're feeling very
        brave) to use 'pudding' only in its more physical sense - food
        made of flour, eggs etc. Hence also 'puddingy' (adj) - having
        the consistency of a pudding. 
    
    Second point:
    
    	In my experience (limited - I was only once addressed as
    	'pudding', and by someone whose parents were not native
    	speakers), 'pudding' in this sense is used in the 2nd 
    	person - not in cases like your first example.
    
	I agree about 'pork chop'. Curiouser and curiouser -
    	don't the words of Steamboat Bill include the term
    	'honey lamb', honey being part of pork-curing recipes
    	but having nothing to do with lamb?
    
    Bob

        'puddingy' rhymes with 'dinghy' rather than 'dingy'.

There is also "pudd" (or "pud") as in "pulling your pudd."  Same etymology?

Larry

    I doot it's the same root, bonnie lad.
    
    Compare:
     Old English - puduk, a wart
     Old German - puddek, a sausage
     Latin - pudere, to be ashamed
    
    And well you might be!
    
    Outraged of Welwyn.

    Re: .-2
    
    I think the phrase came about because the activity supposedly turned
    your brains to pudding.  And isn't there an epithet "puddinghead"?...
    
    	@V@

    Far from being a term of endearment, I always thought that "pudding"
    when applied to a person meant someone who was fat and slow, as
    in "He's a bit of a pudding".

    I talked to my mother about her Yorkshire pudding and was informed
    that the stuff is *supposed* to come out crisp and light; the only
    reason I remember it being soft and smushy, like stuffing, is because
    my grandmother, RIP, couldn't cook. 
    
    What a shame.  And I remember it being SO good....
    
    --bonnie

    Surely the puds people pull are their pudenda, from pudere?
    Or am I overestimating the, er, Romance of this activity?
    
    Does anyone know what partridge has to say on this?
    
    Phillip

    I also assumed that "pud" (as in pulling the...) is an
    abbreviation of pudenda.
    
    --- jerry

    Re: .27
    
    Knowing the class or cultural content of 'pudding' makes its use
    even clearer.  It also explains, I think, why it was so difficult
    to understand the word from random occurrences in books and television.
    I suppose it was more commonly used downstairs than up and more
    common in rural villages than fashionable parts of cities.  Now
    it finally gels (sorry); interesting how so simple a word carries
    with it so much baggage.
    
    The use of 'honey lamb' as a term of endearment is probably just
    two endearing terms combined, like adding an exclamation point to
    the first.  The use of food words as endearments isn't always
    explicable - honey is sweet and lambs are soft and cute, I suppose,
    but I've also heard 'muffin' used as an endearment, and muffins
    are squat, ugly things.  It is probably unwise to expect logic
    or sanity in this area; after all, the French find it endearing
    to call someone a cabbage.
    
    Bernie

    ...after all, the French find it endearing to call someone a cabbage.
    
    Take care!  The Sicilians find it insulting! 

    MLNOIS::HARBIG
                  Re 31.37
                  Not just Sicilians but all Italians although it
                  is more often used to describe actions rather
                  than people.
                  For example:
                  "Un ragionamento del cavolo."
                   An idiotic idea.
                  Also in the sense of ..it's your problem definately
                  not mine "Cavoli tuoi !" is used.
                  However cavolo has become insulting more because,
                  beginning with the same letter, it is a euphemism                               
                  for the most popular Italian equivalent of an anglo
                  saxon four letter word so that when you say someone
                  is a cabbage head you're really saying much more.
                                       Max                                             
    

    re bonnie and the yorkshire pudding.....I have made it about three
    times.....twice I got slabs (oven wasn't hot enough) and once
    a heavenly flakey pastry....they all tasted good but the later was
    more popular with my kids....
    Bonnie J

    A possibly insurmountable objection has been raised to the Pudding
    Committee Final Act, viz. Summer Pudding, which I am told is definitely
    not cooked.
    
    We are preparing to fall on our own swords.
    
    Phillip, for the Pudding Committee.

    Don't fall on your swords yet.
    
    I think Summer Pudding is the one where you line a pudding basin (q.v.)
    with soft white bread and then steep a cold mixture of fruit in the
    hollow. You don't cook it, but the bread probably has flour and milk in
    it; and for all I know they might put egg powder in that soft white
    stuff. So the finished product has got the necessary ingredients. 

    Pedants of the world unite.  The last thing you want to lose is
    your 'pedai' (Gk).
    
    bob

	The bread is cooked before it's put in the pudding too, so I
    suppose it's swords back in the scabbards. Pity about Andrew, didn't
    get the message to him in time...
    
    Phillip

    Re .42
    
    I am alive. Not dead or bleeding just a surfeit of raspberry Summer
    pudding.
    
    Re .39
    
    Yorkshire Pudding is a cooked batter not a pastry but it sounds
    as though you are getting the hang of it. We'll make you an honorary
    Yorkshireman if you submit a perfect YP to the committee.  
    
    Andrew Dodd

    	Yorkshire puddings have a light, resilient texture when squeezed,
    which may account for the term of endearment.
    
    	It is rumoured that the 100 years of warfare between Lancashire
    and Yorkshire may have been solely over whether the pudding should
    have been eaten with syrup or gravy.
    
    	"Pudding club" is an alternative to "bun in the oven". Puddings
    (like dumplings - another term of endearment) always swell during
    cooking.

    I thought that even then the cause was whether Boycott should open
    for England.
    
    Phillip

    The term "pudding" as an endearment over here must be regional,
    as I have never come across it before. "Great pudding" and "pudding
    head" are indeed epithets, the latter originating, I believe in
    East Anglia (that's the bit that sticks out on the East coast, about
    halfway up England). Did not Burns (apologies to any Scots if it
    was someone else) not write "... great chieftain of the pudding
    race ..." (referring to haggis)?

    MLNOIS::HARBIG
                  Re .46
                  Yes it was Burns.The poem is "To a Haggis" and
                  goes (the first two words are probably wrong but
                  if anyone is that interested I can look up the
                  Bicentenary Edition) something like this:
    
                  "Here's tae yer 'onest sonsy face,
                   great chieftain o' the puddin' race...."
    
                                          Max

Broken English in India:
 
 
The following essay on "The Cow" was written by a candidate in an
examination for a post in the Higher Grade of Government service.
----------------
 
			The Cow.
 
The Cow is a wonderful animal, also he is quadruped and because he
is female he gives milk -- but he will do so only when he has got
child. He is same like God, sacred to Hindu and useful to man. But
he has got four legs together. Two are forward and two are afterwards.
 
His whole body can be utilised for use. More so the milk, What it
cannot do? Various ghee, butter, cream, curds, whey Kova and the
condensed milk and so forth. Also he is useful to cobbler, watermans
and mankind generally,
 
His motion is slow only. This is because he is of amptitudnous species,
and also his other motion is much useful to trees, plants as well as
makes fires. This is done by making flat cakes in hand and drying
in sun.
 
He is the only animal that extricate his feedings after eating. Then
afterwards he eats by his teeth whom are situated in the inside of
his mouth. He is incessantly grazing in the meadows on grass.
 
His Weapons.
-----------
 
His only attacking and defending weapons are his horns, especially
so when he has child. This is done by bowing his head whereby he
caused the weapons to be parallel to the ground of earth and instantly
proceeds with great velocity forward.
 
He has got tail also, but not like other similar animals. It has got
hairs on the end of the other side. This is done to frighten away the
flies which alight on his whole body and chastises him unceasingly,
whereupon he given hit with it.
 
The palms of his feet are so soft unto the touch, so the grasses he
eats would not get crushed. At night time he reposes by going down on
the ground and then he shuts his eyes like his relative the horse
which does not do so. This is the Cow.
 
-------
 
========================================================================

    ...after all, the French find it endearing
    to call someone a cabbage.
    
This is absolutely untrue!

I know it's been a year since anyone replied to this note, but
I've just recently discovered this notesfile  (about 1:00 this
afternoon.)  The expression in French is "mon petit choux", which
means "my creampuff".  Pate a choux, (I wish I could make this 
machine do accent marks, but it's nearly impossible w/a DECmate)
is a cooked combination of flour, water, butter and eggs, and is
the basic component of eclair shells, creampuffs, etc.  (Not unlike
yorkshire pudding, except that the goop is cooked twice.)  A "choux"
is, indeed, a cabbage, but a "petit choux" is a creampuff.

About Yorkshire pudding, and why american restaurants serve you
popovers instead:  The mixture is the same for both, but Popovers
are cooked individually, as in muffin tins, and Yorkshire pudding
is baked in a pan full of lovely drippings, in one (pardon the
expression,) mass.

/tricia  (currently a DECtemp, previously a Culinary Arts major,
          and a French major.  What a combination!)

    re: .49 (PFisher)
    
>(I wish I could make this 
>machine do accent marks, but it's nearly impossible w/a DECmate)
    
    	   There is a way.  Following is a list I generated to 
    	allow me to create these characters on my PC (which is
    	incapable of displaying them, since I use a VT100 emulator).
    	In order to create any of these characters, invoke the
    	SPECINS (Special Character Insert) function using the
    	character number.
    
    	   Print this list on an LN03 and keep it near the DECmate.
    	You can be as fancy as anyone (despite the fact that you
    	won't be able to read what you have written).
    
    	- Greg
    
161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 
 �   �   �       �       �   �   �   �   �                   �   �   �   �

181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 
 �   �   �       �   �   �   �   �       �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �  

201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 
 �   �   �   �   �   �   �       �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �  

221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 
 �       �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �    

241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 
 �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   �   

	Re .49
                         -< cabbages are NOT romantic >-

	I'm not so sure .... ask my (French) wife, she often calls me
	"cabbage" in English, much to the surprise and incomprehension
	of people nearby, but I know what she means ....

    I'm surprised this little gem hasn't appeared before now.
    
    Englishmen abroad in the streets of San Francisco should beware of
    approaching strange men and asking them for a fag. What ends up between
    your lips may not be at all what you bargained for.
    
    Chris

    Also, now that I come to think of it, gentlemen from San Francisco
    wintering on these shores should be aware that if they go out in search
    of faggots, many restaurants will be delighted to oblige them.
    
    Chris

    And I had to warn a colleague before he left to go and work in the
    US.
    
    He was a smoker, always short of cigarettes, and also worked in
    pencil, so he could make corrections easily.
    
    Hence he was warned against two of his usual requests...
                                
    "Can I bum a fag?"      and 	"Will you lend me a rubber?"

    {translations:
    
    "May I have a cigarette?"  and 	"Will you lend me an eraser?"
    
    Nick :-)

    	I still have fond memories of the Ealing office (long since gone)
    and "Big Anne". She was Australian, lived up to her name, and would
    yell across the office in a voice that could be heard at Marble Arch
    Durex = Scotch tape)

    Forgive me for activating an obviously old topic and not checking the
    rest of the conference for a better one or the possibilty that the
    answer to this question already appears somewhere, but...
    
    I was just watching a TV show where an American chef asked some
    Londoners why they called chips chips instead of french fries. One
    Londoner started his reply with "Chips are different to french
    fries...". Do the British say "different to" instead of "different
    from"? 

    "different from" is correct in Britain (as our English teachers always
    tried to impress on us!), but "different to" is far more common.
    It's a bit like the American usage "different than", which would
    sound very strange to the average Briton. 
                   
    John

    I'm not British, but it was explained to me that "different to" is
    parallel to "similar to".
    
Lew Lasher

re: prev.
>    I'm not British, but it was explained to me that "different TO" is
>    parallel TO "similar TO".
[emphasis mine]

This is all just too to.

    ...it's all in the tutu.
    
    --bonnie

    
    What is the definition of the Britishism "sussed," as in "I've got you
    sussed"? I suspect it has to do with "suspect" -- but I just bought the
    digitally re-mastered version of "Tommy" by The Who, you see, and it's
    something I've always wondered about...
    
    JP
    
    

To sus is to work out ... to size up ... 

"I've got you sussed" ... "I understand your game"

Generally when used in that manner applied to a person as the object of being
"sussed", there is the subtle implication that the person is doing something
somewhat devious, as in the example shown above, but not necessarily bad.

When applied to an inanimate object just means you have it worked out ...

"I've sussed this equation."

Stuart

    G'day,
    
     Feline followers may be sussed too...
    
    "The cat sussed at me!"
    
    
    ;-)
    
    
    derek

    Re .61
    
    >I suspect it has to do with "suspect"
    
    If you're right you're right, and if you're wrong you're right.
    Only if you're wrong, then you didn't say what you thought you said.
    
    (Your first "suspect" has opposite meanings in English and American.)
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    	I might guess at a French origin, from the participle of "savoir",
    to know.

	Dave,

		That is way too elaborate.  I certainly can't
	suss it.  Even if savoir gives you "su" or "susse" in
	the first person, the meaning is far from that of "suss"
	and is unlikely to have ever been used enough to have
	infected the English and it would have been so long ago
	that we would expect to see it in other Anglophone
	communities like USA, NZ, Australia, etc.  If you were 
	hell-bent on a French semantic derivation, I'd go for 
	"saisir" and saisis in the 1st person as this is very close
	to the meaning of "suss".

	However, I don't believe any of this.  I suspect that there
	may well have been a bastardization of "suspect" (noun, not verb)
	derived recently (say since 1950) in East/South London 
	crime/police circles (c.f. "finger" and "grass").  My
	early recollections of the word were hearing it in NZ from
	my Cockney father - it was definitely foreign to the
	existing anglophone population and it had definite undertones
	of me being "(the) suspect" and my father having "sussed"
	me.  Later on, the word developed the more acceptable 
	sense of having "worked something out" - a puzzle or
	an enigma for example.

	In London and particularly Cockney, the word still has
	quite perjorative undertones unless otherwise qualified 
	by context.

/Chris.
	
	 
	

>	suss it.  Even if savoir gives you "su" or "susse" in

Although I can't confirm it, my feeling is that Dave isn't far off. First person
singular of 'savoir' is 'je sais' (approximately pronounced 'saeh').

                                                        
                                                  - Rik -

Yeah, but savoir has been around for hundreds of years whereas suss
hasn't and savoir doesn't have the special connotations of suss.  
These two pieces of evidence vastly outweigh the phonic similarity.

P.S.	Also in the British vernacular is "sus" or "suss" (not
	sure of spelling) used as an adjective as in ;

		"Sounds a bit sus to me ...."

 

    Two notes:
    
    1	there's also an adjectival use, which confirms a possible link with
    	suspect. There was recently an infamous usage of the law relating
    	to `arrest on suspicion of ...'; what was infamous about it was
    	that people arrested/questioned/detained or whatever tended to be
    	black. The law was referred to at the time of the infamy (early
    	eighties? - when there were race riots in a number of English
    	cities) as `the suss law'.
    
    2	there's also a substantive use; a person who's quick to suss things
    	out has `suss' (a bit like `savvy' - which is a better suspect for
    	derivation from French).
    
    b

    savoir faire is everywhere...

    Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary: 1972 Edition with 1977
    Supplement.  The Supplement recognises the word with the following
    entry:
    
    suss (out), (slang) v.t. to examine, inspect thoroughly, investigate. 
    [suspect].
    
    which certainly indicates that the editors found a believable route
    back to suspect;  in other `modern' words within the supplement they
    provide no derivation if they are at all uncertain.
    
    Jon

    The comment in topic 1146 about the possible influence of immigrants on
    American English intrigues me, particularly the idea that somehow their
    mistakes have become incorporated in the language. Can anyone think of
    any examples of this?

    I can accept that this influence probably added words to the vocabulary and
    contributed some idiomatic expressions. It also probably influenced the
    accents. On the other hand, it doesn't seem that we've drifted very far
    from the mother tongue in terms of grammar. It's difficult to think of
    examples of grammatical differences between American English and British
    English, and it's not clear to me that the ones I can bring to mind are
    likely to have been due to foreign influences.

    I checked this topic to see what kinds of differences people generally
    notice. It's mostly vocabulary and slang expressions. There is a difference
    mentioned here that I hadn't heard of before. I didn't know that "different
    than" sounded strange to the British. I can think of two more. The British
    go "to hospital" while Americans go "to the hospital". The British also
    seem to make responses that have what sounds to an American like an extra
    verb, for example, "I have done" instead of simply "I have".

    So how really different are the various forms of English? They seem pretty
    close, especially when written. Perhaps someone whose English language is
    not American would at least do me a favor. Please examine this note
    carefully and indicate what there is in it that really betrays the fact
    that I'm American.

    John

    G'day,
    
    
    Well a missing 'u' in favo(u)r says it all....
    
    
    Going to hospital means being admitted as a patient. Going to the
    hospital implies a visit - like going to the bus depot. Being 
    'in hospital' is likely to mean a state of inambulate incarceration!
    
    
    The languages are less different than French and Quebecois, perhaps.
    British English is different from American English. British English is
    different to American English in that the letter 'u' features as does
    the 're' combination in theatre. Another difference is that British
    English uses an 's' rather than a 'z' (zed, not zee) in such words as 
    'organise'.
    
    I have implies posession, rather than action... do you have a
    typewriter? I have one. Have you typed a letter? I've typed many.
    
    
    Alles ist Klar?
    derek

    One term that I *think* has been influenced by immigration is
    "standing in line".  In New York, it is "standing on line".  In
    Britain, it is "queuing up".
    
    There are some odd phrases that have come out of Pawtucket, Rhode
    Island.  (Well, actually, they've pretty much stayed there; exporting
    did *not* take.)  The one I remember is "side by each" for "side by
    side".
    
    							Ann B.

    A phrase I've heard spoken more frequently in recent times is "over
    top," used in places where I'd have said: "on top of."
    			
    					andrew

>    British English is different from American English. British English is
>    different to American English in that the letter 'u' features as does
>    the 're' combination in theatre.

American English never uses "different to."  What's this difference (if any)
between "different from" and "different to" in these two sentences?

    The only difference is that "different from" is "usual" according to
    the OED and "different to" is not. Some object to "different to", but
    some, like Fowler, call this "pedantry", although he, too, admits that
    "differing to" is nonsense.
    
    That said, I've never heard "different to" used outside of the British
    dialect.
    
    -Tom

    And in the UK we don't say different than, which I've heard in the USA.

Let's not forget that both countries also boast a large number of regional
accents and dialects. Comparing rural Vermont idioms with those of, say,
Glasgow, may contribute liitle or nothing to one's understanding of the
differences between American and British English.

\dave

    ACCORDING TO THE AHD: "... Critics since the 18th century have singled out
    different than as incorrect though it is well attested in the works of
    reputable writers. ..."
    
    I certainly learned that it was incorrect form, though it is becoming
    more common.
    
    ed

    G'day,
    
    Some random, idle thoughts...
    
    when comparing a and b, a is different to b in that it has... whereas a
    has..
    
    when comparing a and b, a _differs from_ b, in that...
    
    and maybe  a is more different than b to c..
    
    djw
    
    

    re: Ann's "side by each" from Pawtucket...
    
    Actually I think it got to Pawtucket by way of Woonsocket (R.I.) (where
    I went to high school).  Woonsocket is heavily French Canadien.  Almost
    everyone over 55 there speaks a dialect of French and it is in the
    French to English translations (i think) that you get the funny phrases
    such as "park the cars side by each", "throw the baby down the stairs 
    a cookie", "I like Woonsocket, me".  Ahn' dee accent is hevy der, yu
    know?
    
    --angela
    
    

Re .-1: sounds likely, like the "already" tacked on to the end of 
sentences in some places in the U.S., which I think comes from the 
German of 19th C. immigrants.  

But just in case we get too complacent, I'll just mention that in
French, as in English, "side by side" is "side by side" (cote a cote),
not "side by (something else)". 

"Throw the baby down the stairs a cookie" has more of a German flavour 
to me, but I can't put my finger on why.

>"Throw the baby down the stairs a cookie" has more of a German flavour 
>to me, but I can't put my finger on why.
    
    Sounds like Pennsylvania Dutch (Deutsch), maybe?
    
    -Tom

    .84> Throw the baby down the stairs a cookie" more of a German
         flavour to me has, but why my finger I cannot onput.
    

    bingo Dan!  that is how many of the "Frenchies" in Woonsocket
    construct their sentences.  As for the "I like Woonsocket, me"
    I believe that comes from constructions in French such as
    <<Moi, J'appelle.....>>
    
    --angela

    Can anyone translate "parky" into American English for me? Thanks.
    
    John

    Parky - cold, especially on the extremities, so that it's no longer
    refreshing

    Possible derivation "weather suitable for a parka"??

    Chamber's gives the definition as `chilly' and specifies it as [Origin
    unknown].
    
    My feeling is that it originates from the North of England - any
    Yorkshire or Lancashire natives out there care to comment?
    
    Jon

    Re: .89
    
    My guess was that it meant like a park, that is, open to the air and
    breezy.
    
    It was a Scot who used the word.
    
    John

    By the way, asking for his translation as well, I got the sense the
    word is rather equivalent to the American weather word "nippy". Do the
    other English speaking people use the word "nippy"? If so, how does
    "parky" differ from "nippy"?
    
    Also, a discussion has ensued elsewhere that poses the question: Are US
    and UK English (and by extension, all "Englishes") diverging or
    converging?
    
    I'm of the opinion that technology is encouraging them to converge.
    
    John

    G'day,
     I suspect that the global village is causing them to converge... there
    are now more UK folk travelling to the US and vice versa so that both
    sets of folk are starting to understand oneanother ;-)
    
    Parky is colder than nippy, IMHO.. parky causes one to be downright
    cold, nippy causes red noses. Parky usually means its a bit breezy too,
    nippy you can 'herrr' and see mist..
    
    
    in order..
    
    chilly
    nippy 
    parky
    b****y cold ennit
    Gawd it's cold
    
    
    derek
    
    from memories of cold winters in the UK. I have to say the coldest I
    have been for 17 years (apart from a visit to a ice cream cold store
    (-40)) was a couple of years ago when camping in June (queen's birthday
    long weekend) when it was 2C and a wind that was real lazy (= went
    through, rather than round one) with snow flurries. I had quite
    forgotten what being cold was..
    
    Today it's raining and 21C.
    
    
    
    

    I'm curious. Do you know what "parky" means because you're familiar
    with the UK dialect or because it's also an Australian word?
    
    John

    G'day,
     I come from the UK.... but you do hear it here tho notably from UK
    origins, I would say..
    
    derek

How about "manky"?

\C

    G'day,
    
     This weather (before the very recent sun) was pretty manky... damp
    and dull and generally pretty yuk..
    
      do yer?
    
    derek

     > damp and dull...
    
    Dull is not a word we Americans use.  Does it translate as "cloudy"
    or "overcast" or something else?

    G'day,
    
    dull is that kind of day when the sky is 10:10ths covered in grey
    murk.. and the sun does note shine through ... like november!
    
    derek

November? Dull?  It's the last month of Spring!


\C

Is "manky" derived from "Manxy" as in "like onto that which is found on the Isle
of Man"?

Having never been to the Isle of Man, I have no relevant experiences to which to
refer.

Wook

    Re .101: Wook, given the definition of manky in the previous replies, I
    would certainely not derive it from the isle of Man. OK, the weather
    there can be pretty cloudy, rainy, windy, etc..., but the landscapes 
    are really nice and most of the inhabitants very hospitable (although I
    hadn't much contact with the retired English who might by now form the
    majority of the population; they migrated there to take advantage of
    the fact that there's much less tax on whatever pension they managed to
    secure in their active life). It's a place where I would return any
    time.
    			Denis.

    G'day, 
    
    
    ... and they grow palm trees on Douglas sea front... Settled by
    Vikings, castles on the island date back to the 800s and earlier. The
    Manx parliament (tynwald) is the oldest continuous parliament in the
    world.. and my wife is Manx ..
    
    
    Manky can also mean rotten in the sense that say a piece of carpeting
    left inteh rain for a long time will go mouldy and become generally
    'manky' - unsuitable for use..
    
    
    derek

    I don't know the derivation of 'Man' in the Isle of Man. But a Manx cat
    (which may have nothing to do with the IOM) is so called because it's
    got a bit missing. Similarly (which makes me think Latin or PIE comes
    into it somewhere - any ideas Dick?) 'manco' is Spanish for one-handed.
    
    It seems to me that a background sense of 'not all that could be
    expected' may have led to a port-manteau word being formed out of
    'dank' and 'murky'.
    
    b
    

    Re .104
    
    The name of the Isle of Man is Anglicized from Mana.  This looks like a
    potential Latin word, but probably not a classical one.  Manabilis
    means penetrating, as cold is penetrating.  Is the Isle of Man
    considered by Europeans to be a climatologically cold place?  The name
    could also, of course, be Celtic - any Manx speakers in the crowd?
    
    The name of the Manx cat is apparently not etymologically related to
    the Isle of Man; it comes from the Latin mancus, meaning crippled,
    which is clearly the source of the Spanish manco.

    G'day,
    
     Isle of Man... derived from Ellan Vanin which is manx for Isle of Mann
     Magic place, birthplace of my wife..
    
    A Manx cat comes from the Isle of Man and is sans tail.. it is
    naturally not there and indeed a small indent shows where the tail
    should be.
    
    
    derek
    

    Re .106
    
    Hmm.  Live and learn, I alluz say...

    G'day,
    
    The I-O-Man is aninteresting place... palm trees grom onthe Douglas sea
    front, and fuschias are used as hedgerows!  - the gulf stream splits at
    land's end and a flow goes up the Irish sea and past the island.
    
    There is  a breed of sheep from the island that is brown and has four
    horns... Big ones
    
    
    Manx is now being taught in the schools.
    
    derek
    
    

    Re the few preceding ones: the name of the Island, Man, ultimately
    derives from the name of Mananaan (spelling probably wrong) mac Lir, a
    Celtic god found in Irish mythology. I seem to recall (but should
    check) that he once threw two pieces of rock in the sea from some place
    in Ulster. One became the Isle of Man, which bears his name, and the
    second became a small islet far off the Northwest coast of Ireland,
    named Rockall. fwiw.
    		Denis.

Interesting that they're teaching Manx in the Manx schools.  According to my
erstwhile linguistics/Germanic languages professor, there were no living
native speakers as of the '70s.  He was amused at a then-new book entitled
"Conversational Manx."

    One of those oh-so-clever books with a title on the spine & cover, but
    blank Pp within, one assumes?
    

    G'day,
     The last surviving Manx only speaking (or Manx = 1st tongue) person
    died during the 70s I believe - could have been the60s, so the book
    would be right.. however, there have been many who have spoken Manx as
    a second language and now there are more.
    
    There is a Manx language museum thet is fitted into a double decker bus
    that tours the island promoting the cause... and very interesting it
    is.
    
    derek

    re .104-.107
    
    Being not completely right is different from being completely wrong; I
    think Dick was a bit quick to back down. Indeed, the Manx cat is born
    without a tail; I think most UK-born people know that, and I don't
    think it disproves anything.
    
    Consider this as a supposed etymological reconstruction:
    
    On the IOM, people [about the 1st century AD] referred to a Manx cat
    as `a cat' (or whatever the Manx word is). Outside the IOM, people
    didn't know there was a special species of cat there. The BBC hadn't
    started screening nature programmes.
    
    At some later date a Manxman, speaking little Anglo-Roman (or whatever
    it was), tried to describe this sort of cat. Like anyone trying to get
    by in a foreign language, he jumped on helpful (likely-sounding)
    suggestions from his audience: one such suggestion could have been
    MANCUS or some derivative.
    
    That's my guess anyway.
    
    b

    -< E purr si muove >-
    
    non,
    
    -< E purr si miauove >-
    
    s�.
    
    HTH.
    
    :-)
    

    Re .113
    
    That was a nice tale.

    G'day,
    
     A Manx cat is a 'manx' cat because 'manx' is the adjective
    that describes things pertaining to the i-o-m.
    
    My wife is a Manx lady. (and no references to tail/tale here please
    due to language differences of connotation !)
    
    Why tho the word is 'Manx' rather than Mannish or other word, I am
    unclear.
    
    derek
    
    ps side issue... had my wife's father been Manx, instead of British,
    she could nothave gotten an European UK passport as the i-o-m is not
    part of the EC!
    
    djw
     

    Re .116
    
    >My wife is a Manx lady. (and no references to tail/tale here please
    >due to language differences of connotation !)
    
    Too late.  There are already two references, of which this is the second.

    G'day,
    
    
    8^)
    
    
    ... reminds me of the old sequence..
    
    Can I ask you a question?
    
    just did
    
    Can I ask you another?
    
    just did that too...
    
    Can I ask you two questions?
    
    Already asked me three
    
    Can I ask you two more questions?
    
    shoot..
    
    
     derek

    Having just seen the movie "Trainspotting", I must confess, the accents
    were so thick, I couldn't decipher a lot of the dialogue. There was one
    character in particular, "Begbie" or something was his name. I don't think
    I understood one complete sentence he spoke in the whole movie. I suspect
    I would have gotten more out of it had his dialogue been in French.

    Anyway, aside from wishing the whole movie had been subtitled for us
    Americans, I was wondering, are there any American accents that other
    English-speaking peoples have any particular difficulty deciphering? (The
    first person who says "all of them" is a wanker.)

    John
    

    One of the more unusual American accents isn't an accent at all but
    rather a dialect - it's the patois spoken by natives of Ocracoke
    Island, in the North Carolina Outer Banks.  It is recognized as a
    dialect, and as a national treasure, by philologists.

    The Kojak series could have done with subtitles in England ... and
    anything involving gangs and their 'street' talk.
    
    Bennie from Due South doesn't need subtitles :-)
    
    	Steve

    Re .119: I'm not a native English speaker and originally learned
    English (supposed to be the flavour from England) in high school. I
    remember once (quite a while ago, I might not have that problem anymore
    today) having to ask a lady from New England to translate into English
    for me the words of a man from Texas...
    			Denis.