Conference thebay::joyoflex

  I like the Victor Borge method of pronouncing punctuation marks.
  Unfortunately it doesn't include technical symbols.

I was going to mention Victor, but his pronounciations defy spelling.

- dave

. dot or point
- dash, but it is really a hyphen.  Common typewriting convention renders 
         a dash as two consecutive hyphens without surrounding spaces--thus.
# hash mark, hatch mark, tic-tac-toe, numbers (or number sign), pounds
         (or pound sign), octothorp, sharp
$ dollar, rather than 'dollar sign', or dollars
( ) parens, rather than parentheses.  I've also heard the singular pronounced
         par-en-the-see, rahter than parenthesis
/ slash, stroke, virgule, over
" quote, rather than quotation mark
' squote, rather than single quotation mark.  It is really an apostrophe.

Oops.  The word 'rahter' above should be 'rather.'

^ up-arrow.  It is really a caret, but the old ASCII assigned an upward pointing
             arrow to the same binary code as this character is now assigned.

Dave C.

(   open paren
)   close paren
[ ] square brackets (mathematicians and typesetters call these "brackets")
{ } curly brackets (mathematicians and typesetters call these "braces")
#   pound rather than pound sign
;   semi rather than semicolon
`   back-quote
=   equal rather than equals sign
\   backslash
~   squiggle

				David Larrick

< > angle brackets, rather than 'less than sign' and 'greater than sign'

`  (mentioned in the previous reply) is an accent grave.  The sign should
       really appear over the letter 'a' in 'grave.'

: full colon, it is just a colon.

Dave C.

< > are brokets, for broken brackets. As in: "Parens, brackets, braces, and
brokets are all paired."
\	is a back-slash (often sans hyphen).
`	is also a back-quote.
|	is an or-slash.
_	is sometimes called merely 'score.' See below.
^	is also sometimes called 'hat' as in "Gee-hat lib-dollar 
erase-score page."
'	may be an apostrophe, but it is also a single quote; the quote one 
uses when one needs to quote within quotations. Sometimes it is paired with 
the back-quote for this purpose. If one is British, then the roles of the 
quotes are reversed.
:	I have never heard this called a full colon. I think someone was 
funning you!


    Jon

:  Honest, I worked in a place where ':' was called a 'full colon.'  It
seems to have scatological implications, doesn't it?

_  Also sometimes called 'underbar' (or 'under-bar') (I've heard it spoken,
and not seen it written before.)  

&  Amper, short for 'ampersand.'  VM/CMS uses '&1', '&2',... to denote
arguments passed to EXEC files (like P1, P2, ... passed to VMS command
files).  "IF &1 EQ &2" is read "if amper-one e-q amper-two."

Dave C.

How about 'star' for '*'?

% = percent
@ = at
| = bar
& = and

I = Bill

Actually, '|' is an ASCII broken bar, but most character display devices don't
display it broken.

I've heard '!' called a shriek.

And '<>' are, I think, properly called left and right carets, not brokets.  I
think I'd vote for 'brokets' as my choice for the most creative concatenation
I've seen in quite a while.

'\' is a left [or reverse(d)] virgule.  Note proper nesting of brackets and
parentheses - I did learn something in my algebra courses...

Cheers,
Dick

I learned to nest the aggregation marks differently:  ( [ { } ] ) , but
that is for algebra.  In English prose, brackets should be used to enclose
a comment by the writer within a quotation (when the comment is not part
of the quotation).  Example:  ...was quoted as having written, "... ellipses
are never speled [sic] incorrectly."

What manner of folks are these
Who screw up all their parentheses?

Dave C.

Re: .10 - Curiouser and curiouser...  I learned to nest aggregation marks
in algebra just the reverse of yours, Dave, ie [more properly "i.e.,"]
{ [ ( ) ] }  [How does one apply a sentence terminator to that ugliness?]

Are people of the homan race
Who put parens outside a brace?


Cheers,
Dick

Oops, that was "human"...


Cheers,
Dick

Re: .11

MORE properly?  Oh, as opposed to less incorrectly...

- dave

RE: .13

Oh, dear, here we go again discussing what constitutes correctness.  Language
is a river, continually changing.  Predominant usage is the final arbiter of
correctness, I fear, and "ie" is becoming common...


Cheers,
Dick

Re:  #4.

~ is called a tilda.

re: .14

...and spelled "tilde."

... but pronounced "tilda"

my last boss used to use

"bucks"  for "$"  (nice and monosyllabic for coders who use it frequently)
"scream" for "!"
"star"  for "*"

also,  the "#" is often called a "pound" sign.  It's not really a pound
sign, but it's on the same key as the pound sign is in Europe.
It is also commonly called the "number" sign, although I once had a
C.S. professor who called it a "sharp" sign (inexplicably, since he was
not a musician!)

re -1:  Not true the symbol `#' is called the pound sign because it indicates 
the number of pounds (as in weight).

The following means "Number Five":   #5

The following means "Five Pounds":   5#

					andrew

aha.  oops.

Re 22.4

When I was in school, we didn't call a tilde ("~") a "squiggle"; we called it
"twiddle."

On the other hand, braces ("{" & "}") were called "left-squiggle" and
"right squiggle."

re:.4

While I always say "backslash" for "\", I rather like the term "oblique stroke".

--- jerry

...And I thought that '#' was called a pound sign because I have to hit
the keyboard really hard to get it to type! I have always called it a
'sharp,' but then I am a musician.

If the backslash is an 'oblique stroke,' then how does one differentiate
between the right-hand oblique stroke and the left-hand oblique stroke?

Even the term "escape" seems to be on its way out, but 
when I see  $  I still think "altmode."

     -mg_

I've seen the percent sign (%) called a double-0-7 sign.  It looks most like
that when it's handwritten.  And how about "coathanger" for "?"?

I seem to recall that the ANSI standard for the character set calls "_" a
"low line" to distinguish it from an underline.  The latter is a line under
some other character (done by a special mode on terminals and by overstriking
on line printers).  The method of production distinguishes a low line from
an underlined blank.

Isn't "^" properly called a circumflex?

I call "<" a "less than" when used in that mathematical sense, but use
"left angle" or "left angle bracket" when it is paired with ">" (or ought
to be).

A compendium, plus some foreign terminology, from the Usenet:

Newsgroups  : net.nlang
Path        : decwrl!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!amdahl!drivax!landauer
Posted      : Wed Jun 26 23:13:10 1985
Subject     : Re: question about names for symbols
Organization: Digital Research, Monterey, CA
 
Xref: tektronix net.nlang:03398 
 
Rick Coates (...!tektronix!iddic!rick) asks
> What names are in use for the non-alpha characters in the ASCII code?
> I suspect that this issue has come up before ...
Yup.  A few months ago, a fairly complete list was posted of the spoken
names for many of the non-alpha characters in ASCII.  I forgot which
newsgroup it was posted to, but judging by the number of responses your
message got, it wasn't this one.  Unfortunately, I forgot who posted it. 
Fortunately, I did save a copy of it.  Here it is...  Thanks to that
unknown previous poster.  (I added a couple...)
-------------
 
TERMINAL MUMPS:  Popular and Bizarre Character Names
 
 
Summarized from USENET articles, circa 1983.
Single characters listed in ASCII order, followed by multiples.
For each character, "official" names appear first, thence others
in order of popularity (more or less).
 
 
!   exclamation point, exclamation, bang, factorial, excl, ball-bat,
    smash, shriek, cuss, wow, hey
!?  interrobang (as one overlapped character)
"   double quote, quote, dirk, literal mark, rabbit ears
#   pound sign, number sign, sharp, crunch, mesh, hex, hash,
    flash, grid, pig-pen, tictactoe, scratchmark, octothorp (from
    Bell System)
$   dollar sign, currency symbol, buck, cash, string (from BASIC),
    escape (from TOPS-10), ding, big-money
%   percent sign, percent, mod, double-oh-seven
&   ampersand, amper, and, address (from C), andpersand
'   apostrophe, single quote, quote, prime, tick, irk, pop, spark
()  open/close parenthesis, left/right parenthesis, paren/thesis,
    parenthisey, unparenthisey, open/close round bracket, ears,
    so/already, wax/wane
*   asterisk, star, splat, wildcard, gear, dingle
+   plus sign, plus, add, cross, intersection
,   comma, tail
-   hyphen, dash, minus sign, worm
.   period, dot, decimal point, radix point, point, full stop, spot
/   virgule, slash, stroke, slant, diagonal, solidus, over, slat,
    oblique
:   colon, two-spot
;   semicolon, semi, hybrid
<>  angle brackets, left/right angle, less/greater than, read
    from / write to, from/into, from/toward, in/out, comesfrom/
    gozinta (all from UNIX), funnel, brokets, crunch/zap, suck/blow
=   equal sign, equals, quadrathorp, gets, half-mesh
?   question mark, whatmark, what, wildchar, ques, huh, quark
@   at sign, at, each, vortex, whorl, whirlpool, cyclone, snail,
    ape, cat, address
V   vee, book
[]  square brackets, left/right bracket, bracket/unbracket, bra/ket,
    square/unsquare, U turns
\   reversed virgule, backslash, bash, backslant, backwhack, backslat,
    escape (from UNIX), back oblique
^   circumflex, caret, uparrow, hat, chevron, sharkfin, to ("to
    the power of"), fang
_   underscore, underline, underbar, under, score, backarrow, flatworm
`   grave accent, grave, backquote, left quote, open quote, backprime,
    unapostrophe, backspark, birk, blugle, back tick, push
{}  open/close brace, left/right brace, brace/unbrace, curly bracket,
    curly/uncurly, leftit/rytit, embrace/bracelet
|   vertical bar, bar, or, v-bar, spike, pipe, gozinta, thru,
    pipesinta (last four from UNIX)
~   tilde, swung dash, squiggle, approx, wiggle, twiddle, enyay
 
/*  slashterisk
*/  asterslash
>>  cat-astrophe
-------------
			-- Doug Landauer --
	...[ ihnp4 | mot | ucscc | amdahl ] !drivax!landauer

Newsgroups  : net.nlang
Path        : decwrl!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!think!harvard!seismo!mcvax!enea!kuling!andersa
Posted      : Fri Jun 28 22:14:38 1985
Subject     : Re: question about names for symbols
Organization: The Royal Inst. of Techn., Stockholm
 
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Rick Coates) writes:
>What names are in use for the non-alpha characters in the ASCII code?
 
Here in Sweden, we use (or at least I've heard someone use) the following:
 
	"	hartass (rabbit's foot) / dubbel-blipp (double blip)
	#	braedhoeg (pile of wood)
	$	sol (sun) [when referring to the European character]
	'	blipp (blip) / enkel-blipp (single blip)
	@	kanelbulle (chanel bun ?) / oera (ear) /
		 / snabel-alfa (elephant's-nose-alpha ?)
	^	tak (roof)
	{ }	maas (seagull), left & right
	~	snok (snake)
 
Unfortunately I don't have a dictionary at hand - perhaps some
Scandinavian globetrotter could tell how to translate "kanelbulle"
and "snabel" correctly (not to forget "blipp" either)...

Newsgroups  : net.nlang
Path        : decwrl!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!think!harvard!seismo!mcvax!ukc!kcl-cs!jenny!jbdp
Posted      : Fri Jun 28 09:44:50 1985
Subject     : Re: question about names for symbols
Organization: U of Cambridge Comp Lab, UK
 
Xpath: kcl-cs west44
 
Here's two penn'orth [spelling!!] from the UK:
 
   !  pling                          |  bar
   "  (double) quote                 /  slash
   #  hash                           \  backslash
   '  (single) quote                 () (round) brackets
   `  backquote, open quote          [] square brackets
   ~  twiddle                        <> angle brackets
   ^  hat                            {} curly brackets, braces
 
Pling  is  supposed  to  be a BCPLism and so probably originates
from  the  language's   inventor,   Martin   Richards.   Another
Cambridgeism,  but  one that seems to have died out,  is calling
matching bracket pairs `bra'  and  `ket'.  To  distinguish  them
from () Algol68C calls [] `sub' and `bus'.
 
`Slash'  has  a  slightly lavatorial sound in British English so
some avoid  it.  The  strangest  I've  heard  were  `slant'  and
`reverse slant'.
 
 
Julian Pardoe
 
-------------
 
University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory
Corn Exchange Street
CAMBRIDGE
CB2 3QG
Great Britain
 
Tel:       352435 ext. 265
Area code: national: 0223, international +44 223
 
Arpa:      <@ucl-cs: [email protected]>
Janet:     [email protected]                     

Newsgroups  : net.nlang
Path        : decwrl!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!think!harvard!seismo!mcvax!boring!jack
Posted      : Fri Jun 28 09:05:00 1985
Subject     : Re: question about names for symbols
Organization: AMOEBA project, CWI, Amsterdam
 
Apparently-To: [email protected]
 
It seems that all non-english speakers invent funny words for
those #@^~ characters. The ones I've heard here in Holland (undoubdtedly
there are others in use are:
 
>	#	braedhoeg (pile of wood)
		tuinhekje (garden gate) or spoorwegkruis (railroad
		crossing)
>	@	kanelbulle (chanel bun ?) / oera (ear) /
>		 / snabel-alfa (elephant's-nose-alpha ?)
		apestaart( ape's tail) or slingeraapje (swinging ape)
 
Notice that especially @ and # seem to get very poetic names in
different languages. Maybe I'll start calling # 'houtstapel' (pile
of wood). I kind of like the name.....
-- 
	Jack Jansen, [email protected]
	The shell is my oyster.

Re .9

I learned '|' as a long vertical mark (LVM) which could be used for vertical
rules.  The EBCDIC character set has an LVM.  When translated to ASCII, it
usually is rendered as '|'.  The devices that display it unbroken are probably
more "correct" and those which do display it broken probably do so to
distinguish it from a lowercase 'l'.

Dave C.

> When translated to ASCII, it usually is rendered as '|'

From the sense of your response, I assume you meant that to come out as a
broken vertical bar.  On my VT240 it's unbroken - on a VT100 it would be
broken.  Kinda confusing.  Same sort of thing happens with the old 7-bit
National Replacement Characters:  I once received some mail which included
the name of my hotel in Munich - it contained a left curly bracket.

Jeff.

Re .28.  

Oops.  Sorry.  What I meant was that when the character LVM is translated
to ASCII, it is usually translated to the character called "vertical bar".
I believe the correct rendering of this character is an UNbroken vertical
mark; some terminals show this character broken, I presume this is to prevent
confusion with the lowercase letter 'l'.

Dave C.

Re: .28, .29 -- Does someone have a copy of the ANSI standard?  The 
"ASCII" character set is the American Standard Code for Information 
Interchange, and I believe the standard specifies the graphics that 
correspond to the bit patterns.  I'm fairly confident that at one time 
the standard specified that the bar should be broken, probably to make 
it easily distinguished from the "l" or "1".

On the IBM Model 29 keypunch, the "|" (vertical bar) was immediately 
adjacent to the "1", and both were numeric shift characters.  When I 
worked with a Burroughs Medium Systems computer in Fortran, the OTS did 
not bother to validate numeric input, and since the hexadecimal code for 
the "|" was "6F", and the method for converting character to numeric was 
to strip off the zones, a single-character input field could generate a 
data value of 15 (decimal) in a program.  As you can imagine, this was 
very confusing to the users of the system.  I got very good at thumbing 
through a deck of cards and picking out the bad ones.  Eventually, I 
rewrote the OTS to validate the input data -- it didn't run as fast, but 
at least it got the right answers!

Tom

RE: .0

If you don't know the proper word for the '*' character, you can go ahead
and try to pronounce it if you wish, but in my opinion, you're an *-it.

--PSW

re .31

    Suzy Smith put on her skates
    Upon the ice to frisk
    Her friends thought she was slightly nuts
    Her little *.

[Hint - if you're having any trouble with .31 and .32, get a DECtalk - it's 
not confused by lexical context, just reads what it sees.]

    What a pity that NACHO::LYNCH had not heard another name for the
    '#' symbol, good for a discount ! (screech )
    
    % = per cent
    @ = at
    | = bar
    & = and
    # = grill(e)
    
    ...rdp.
    

Re: .14

As in "Waltzing Ma".

	I have heard an exclamation mark called a "Nathan Hale", as
	in "I regret that I have but on * for my country".

	Chris

>  Chevron.   As in "The system was sitting at the 3-chevron prompt.

Dave C.

    At the newspaper where I worked in college, we called the # a
    railroad crossing.
    
    --bonnie

@   I recently saw a reference to the mark @ as a 'masterspace'.

Dave C.

    re .38, @ pronounced 'masterspace':
    
    This term comes from Univac (later Sperry, now Unisys) EXEC-8 (later
    OS/1100, now who knows.)  The job control language uses @ the way
    DCL uses $, that is, to signal the beginning of a command line to
    the interpreter.  Masterspace was a common pronunciation among
    UNIVAC 1100 series systems programmers.

    Re .35
    
    > I have heard an exclamation mark called a "Nathan Hale", as
    > in "I regret that I have but on * for my country".
    
    Isn't that "I regret that I have but one ! to risk for my country"?
    
    I have in a published book(*) that multiplication is called the
    "Nathan Hale" operator, and yes THAT was because he had but one *.

    (*)footnote -- Anyone know which book that was?

>>    I have in a published book(*) that multiplication is called the
>>    "Nathan Hale" operator, and yes THAT was because he had but one *.
>>
>>    (*)footnote -- Anyone know which book that was?

	The FORTRAN Coloring Book

	Dan

Forwarded message follows:

Subject: waka waka bang splat tick tick hash...
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tom Schiavinato) writes:
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!bacchus.pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!funny-request
From: [email protected] (Tom Schiavinato)
Newsgroups: rec.humor.funny
Subject: Stuck shift key poetry
Keywords: computer, smirk
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 14 Jul 90 23:30:04 GMT
Lines: 40
Approved: [email protected]
 
 
 
The following poem is excerpted with permission from Lee Leitner's
"Viewpoint" column which is featured in a bimonthly periodical for
Prime INFORMATION users called INFOCUS magazine. The original author's
were Fred Bremmer and Steve Kroese of Calvin College & Seminary of
Grand Rapids, MI.
 
FYI - a "wahka" is the decidedly "proper" (by popular vote) name for
the characters ">" and "<". This is in spite of INFOCUS readers of
Denver who still refer to them as "Norkies". The Michigan crowd
apparently has corrupted the spelling to "waka".
 
To wit, it is -
------------------------------------------------------------
 "...a poem we think is about the lowly wahka. Maybe. Well,
  perhaps---we're really not sure what the poem actually is
  about. Here it goes:"
 
    <>!*''#
    ^@`$$-
    !*'$_
    %*<>#4
    &)../
    |{~~SYSTEM HALTED
 
Transliterated:
    Waka waka bang splat tick tick hash,
    Caret at back-tick dollar dollar dash,
    Bang splat tick dollar under-score,
    Percent splat waka waka number four,
    Ampersand right-paren dot dot slash,
    Vertical-bar curly-bracket tilde tilde CRASH.
------------------------------------------------------------
 
--
Edited by Brad Templeton.  MAIL your jokes (jokes ONLY) to [email protected]
Attribute the joke's source if at all possible.  A Daemon will auto-reply.
 
Remember: Always give your jokes a descriptive "Subject:" line.  Not "joke."
 
 

From the TELECOM digest  (Hit KP7 to add VOX::TELECOM-DIGEST to your
notebook):


TELECOM Digest     Sun, 24 Jun 90 02:49:42 CDT    Volume 10 : Issue 451

                            A B S T R A C T
 
Inside This Issue:                         Moderator: Patrick A. Townson
 
    Re: On the Trail of the Elusive Octothorpe [Erik Naggum]
    Re: On the Trail of the Elusive Octothorpe [Dave Newman]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 1990 16:32:31 +0200
From: Erik Naggum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: On the Trail of the Elusive Octothorpe
 
 
Prelude: "Octothorp" (sans final `e') is listed in (Merriam) Webster's
Third New Int'l Dictionary with etymology "octo + thorp, of unknown
origin; from the eight points on its circumference".  "Thorp(e)" is
archaic for "village, hamlet", but that can't be it.  I've heard the
`=' sign referred to as "quadrothorp".  (I have not seen the natural
extensions for `-' (bithorp?) and `.' (monothorp?).)  Anyone know what
"thorp" is?
 
Kari Hardarson <[email protected]> writes in TELECOM Digest
V10 #449:
 
>I thought that the : # sign was called a 'Hash' mark before I came to
>the states. Maybe that's British English? Here in the States, a lot of
>my colleagues refer to it as the 'Pound sign', something that I can't
>understand since the pound sign is distinctly different. In UK-ASCII
>tables, the pound sign usually gets placed where the # is in American
>ASCII, that may explain something. Incidentally, in my language
>(Icelandic) we refer to the sign as 'The mill'. ;
 
Ah, I remember the first time I heard about it as the "pound sign".
To me, that's the "Libra" symbol used by the British to denote their
currency symbol, which is what they have in IA5 location 2/3 (that's
ASCII 0x23 to you folks :-).  However, I heard, much to my surprise,
that the `#' symbol's meaning is context dependent:
 
	#5	means "number five"
	5#	means "five lbs (pounds)"
 
This has later been confirmed by several good dictionaries and
reference works (read: theory), but I've never seen in it practice.
 
The Norwegian pager service uses the octothorpe as a regular "end-of-
number", which is explained in the taped recording you hear when you
dial the service as "the sqaure key" ("quadrilateral key" is closer to
the Norwegian term "firkanttast", literally "four-side-key").  To
paraphrase the last few words spoken at the end of Pink Floyd's Dark
Side of the Moon: "Matter of fact, they're all quadrilateral."
 
I have to ask someone around here what they call it in Norwegian, I've
forgot.  I don't think it's used other than in telephones around here.
Which reminds me ... The Norwegian key layout is like this:
 
	7  8  9
	4  5  6
	1  2  3
	0  *  #
 
When you dial somewhere around two hundred digits a day, and you find
yourself in the U.S., where it's generally completely different
(except for 4, 5, and 6), it would have been faster to use a rotary
dial (except they are different from the Norwegian ones, too).
 
Is there any interest in the particularities of Norway, and especially
Oslo?
 
[Erik Naggum]
 
------------------------------
 
From: Dave Newman <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: On the Trail of the Elusive Octothorpe
Date: 24 Jun 90 01:20:10 GMT
Reply-To: David Newman <[email protected]>
Organization: UTexas Computation Center, Austin, Texas
 
 
Some people I know call it (the 'octothorpe') a 'sharp'.  I think this
is the result of a very similar character's use in musical scores.  (I
don't know, since I don't read music.)+
 
Has anyone thought to check with someone in typography?  F'rinstance,
Donald Knuth might know, or you might find the character referenced by
name in one of his books on TEX.
 
 
Dave
 
------------------------------

TELECOM Digest     Tue, 26 Jun 90 00:09:08 CDT    Volume 10 : Issue 453
 
                            A B S T R A C T
 
------------------------------
 
From: Steven King <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: On the Trail of the Elusive Octothorpe
Date: 25 Jun 90 20:41:19 GMT
Organization: Motorola Inc. - Cellular Infrastructure Div., Arlington Hgts, IL
 
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Erik Naggum) writes:
 
>However, I heard, much to my surprise,
>that the `#' symbol's meaning is context dependent:
 
>	#5	means "number five"
>	5#	means "five lbs (pounds)"
 
>This has later been confirmed by several good dictionaries and
>reference works (read: theory), but I've never seen in it practice.
 
On the rare occasions when I need to write the weight of something
(say, when I'm putting meat in my freezer) I'll use the "5#" notation
to indicate "five pounds".  I think I picked up the habit from my
father.  Since I can't recall the last time someone else had to read
my notes I can't say how widely known the notation is.
 
I prefer calling it the "sharp" sign.  It doesn't get confused with
the British pound, and is much less of a mouthful than "octothorpe".
That last sounds like it should be on the menu at a seafood
restaurant.
 
 
Steve King, Motorola Cellular  (...uunet!motcid!king)
 
------------------------------
 
From: Danial Hamilton <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: On the Trail of the Elusive Octothorpe
Date: 25 Jun 90 20:54:10 GMT
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Div., Arlington Hgts, IL
 
 
I did some work on some telephone firmware where the ASCII value for
the '#' was equated to the symbol "MESH".  I don't know if that is a
common name for '#' or just the original program author's personal
favorite.
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 90 9:02:53 EDT
From: Carl Moore (VLD/VMB) <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: On the Trail of the Elusive Octothorpe
 
 
Yes, the # is the musical "sharp".
 
------------------------------
 
From: [email protected] (Kevin Mitchell)
Subject: Re: On the Trail of the Elusive Octothorpe
Date: 25 Jun 90 14:38:30 GMT
Organization: Datalogics Inc., Chicago
 
 
In PostScript the name of the character is /numbersign.
 
 
Kevin A. Mitchell                (312) 266-4485
Datalogics, Inc                  Internet: [email protected]
441 W. Huron                     UUCP: ..!uunet!dlogics!kam
Chicago, IL  60610               FAX: (312) 266-4473
 
------------------------------
 

TELECOM Digest     Fri, 29 Jun 90 01:35:35 CDT    Volume 10 : Issue 461
 
                               A B S T R A C T
 
From: Robert Kinne <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: On the Trail of the Elusive Octothorpe
Date: 27 Jun 90 14:45:54 GMT
Reply-To: Robert Kinne <[email protected]>
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
 
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Erik Naggum)
writes:
 
>Prelude: "Octothorp" (sans final `e') is listed in (Merriam) Webster's
>Third New Int'l Dictionary with etymology "octo + thorp, of unknown
>origin; from the eight points on its circumference".  "Thorp(e)" is
>archaic for "village, hamlet", but that can't be it.  
 
I have a lurking suspicion that the derivation may be from a proper
name.  Thorpe is a rather common family name in the UK and the US.
Perhaps at some earlier era a telephone engineer named Thorpe combined
the octo (eight) with his name to designate the symbol in a way which
avoids the confusion of some of the other usages which vary from
country to country.  Anyone have any knowledge, ideas, or folklore
along these lines?
 
>I've heard that the `#' symbol's meaning is context dependent:
 
>	#5	means "number five"
>	5#	means "five lbs (pounds)"
 
The latter is American usage.  The same symbol is also referred to as
'sharp', based on its usage in music (actually the symbol for sharp is
a bit skewed, but the octothorpe is a good approximation, as well as
can be done with ASCII or typewriters).  Most Americans will still
refer to # as 'pound sign'.  In the US, of course, pound is a unit of
force in the British Gravitational System of units (now archaic except
in the US).  Now everyone should be confused!
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 90 12:03:03 EDT
From: Jerry Leichter <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: On the Trail of the Elusive Octothorpe 
 
 
 Several people noted (ahem) that # and the musical sharp sign were
"the same".  This is not quite true.  The musical sharp sign is
normally smaller and has its four lines at an angle to the vertical
and horizontal - often almost a 45 degree angle.  Even more noticable
is that the sharp is a superscript - it's not placed quite as high as,
say, a superscript 2 for "squared" - for one thing, it's bigger - but
it is definitely well above the baseline.
 
Obviously, different fonts will choose slightly different
representations for each character, so there may be some overlap.
However, the character is never raised (much) above the baseline when
used for "number" or "pounds", but is always raised when used for
"sharp".
 
BTW, yet another name for "#" is "hash mark".  Knuth uses that in The
TeXbook, for example.  Both "number sign" and "pound sign" appear in
the index marked "see hash mark".  (On the other hand, so does "sharp
sign".  However, an example in the book defines a \sharp macro as a
hash mark - but a hash mark raised above the baseline by .4 ex, .4
times the nominal height of an "x" character in the font.)
 
 
	-- Jerry
 
------------------------------
 
From: Jim McCauley <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: On the Trail of the Elusive Octothorpe
Date: 27 Jun 90 20:42:37 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
 
 
In the index of `The TeXbook', Donald Knuth calls the <#> character
"hash mark."
 
 
Jim McCauley          [email protected]       (408) 447-4993
Learning Products Engineer   Hewlett Packard Company, General Systems Division
MS 48SO, 19447 Pruneridge Avenue, Cupertino CA  95014
Disclaimer: My opinions are my own, not my employer's.
 
------------------------------
 
Subject: The Elusive Octothorpe Explained
From: Steve Pershing <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 90 21:49:39 PDT
Organization: The Questor Project
 
 
[email protected] (Kari Hardarson) writes:
 
> I thought that the : # sign was called a 'Hash' mark before I came to
> the states. Maybe that's British English? Here in the States, a lot of
> my colleagues refer to it as the 'Pound sign', something that I can't
> understand since the pound sign is distinctly different. In UK-ASCII
> tables, the pound sign usually gets placed where the # is in American
> ASCII, that may explain something. Incidentally, in my language
> (Icelandic) we refer to the sign as 'The mill'. ;
 
The most creative name I ever saw for the # symbol was defined by
Northern Telecom, and as many readers know, it was "octothorpe".  The
meaning of the word was defined by NT as "an eight-cornered figure".
 
Since there are so many different names for the # symbol around the
world, NT wanted to be unique, and indeed they were.  I doubt that
anyone actually calls it by their name (octothorpe) *anywhere* in the
world.
 
Some years ago, after Bell Labs had defined the Touch-Tone dial, the
CCITT adopted it and the standard tones generated by it as a de facto
standard.  (Various branches of the US military use a different tone
matrix on similar dialling pads.)
 
The CCITT displayed (in the White Book, I believe), a 12-button
Touch-Tone dial with the # symbol appearing more as a slightly
stylized square, rather than identical to the #.  They then wisely
designated that symbol as the "square" symbol, and the key, as the
"square key".
 
Since my reading of that definition, I have always referred to it as
the "SQUARE KEY", and hardly anyone from anywhere in the world has
ever had any trouble figuring out what I was referring to when my
computerised answering device asks them to touch it.
 
So folks, why don't we all forget "pound", "number", et alia, and
start calling it what the official World Standard is.  Nothing like
being able to communicate clearly, eh wot?
 
 
Internet: [email protected]    | POST:  1027 Davie Street, Box 486
Phones:  Voice/FAX:  +1 604 682-6659 |        Vancouver, British Columbia
         Data/BBS:   +1 604 681-0670 |        Canada  V6E 4L2
 
 
[Moderator's Note: Long-time Digest readers will recall that over a
year ago I put out a special issue entitled "Everything You Wanted to
Know About Octothropes" ... If I get many more messages on this topic
this time, another special issue will be required.   PT]
 
------------------------------

Yet more comments from TELECOM Digest.   

TELECOM Digest     Thu, 1 Dec 88 21:05:28 EST    Volume 8 : Issue 190

                               A B S T R A C T
 
Today's Topics:
 
              All You Ever Wanted To Know About Octothorpes 
 
[Moderator's Note: This is a just-for-fun special issue of the Digest
with a random sampling of the mail received pertaining to your favorite
touch-pad key and mine, the lowly octothorpe, or #. As is our custom,
we have even provided a rebuttal message from someone who says the #
is not known as an octothorpe at all....
 
Now can we get this out of our systems once and for all please? Let's
call it quits on the subject of #, by whatever name.  P. Townson]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
From: [email protected] (L Lang)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 22 Nov 88 15:36:53 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research
Lines: 24
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (julian macassey) writes:
> 
>     I am looking for an authoritative reference for the term
> OCTOTHORPE.
> 
>     An octothorpe is an # , which is what is usually referred to
> as "the pound sign" or "the hash mark", sometimes as "the number
> symbol". I know the correct term is octothorpe, I have seen
> ...
>     I do know that Octo means eight and Thorpe means beam. So the
> word has some roots.
> ...
> Julian Macassey, n6are       julian@bongo   voice (213) 653-4495
 
When I count "thorpes" (the beams or lines),
I only see four, two vertical and two horizontal.
 
Perhaps it should be called the QUADROTHORPE.
And does that make the * a TRITHORPE?
 
Cheers,
Larry Lang
 
 
 
 
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected] (Peter Desnoyers)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 30 Nov 88 23:20:40 GMT
 
 
 
Just to provide another point of view:
  from CCITT recommendation E.161 (Arrangement of Figures, Letters and
Symbols of Telephones and other Devices that can be used for Gaining
Access to a Telephone Network) as revised for the Blue Book:
 
    3.2.2 Symbols
     ...
      [drawings, with angle between horiz. and vert. strokes, length of
    strokes, and length of protruding nubbies labelled alpha, b, and a
    respectively] 
      in Europe alpha = 90 degrees with a/b = 0.08 (looks funny to a N.A.ican)
      in North America alpha = 80 deg. with a/b = 0.18 
     ...
    The symbol will be known as the square or the most commonly used
    equivalent term in other languages.*
    *... alternate term (e.g. "number sign") may be necessary...
 
I suppose it's useful to have a translatable term. That approach
worked for "star", but it seems to have failed here. Does anyone refer
to '#' as a "square"? Anywhere? Enquiring minds want to know...
 
				Peter Desnoyers
 
 
To: [email protected]: [email protected] (Erik T. Mueller)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 1 Dec 88 19:28:06 GMT
 
 
 
The term "octothorpe" appears in issues of the journal -Telesis- from
the mid to late 1970's published by Bell Northern Research. (Sorry,
I don't have the actual issue numbers handy right now...) I don't know
its origin, but vaguely recall reading somewhere that it was a
Canadian telephony term. As far as I know, the term is/was never used
by AT&T.
 
-Erik
 
 
 
To: [email protected]
From: avsd!childers (Richard Childers)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 25 Nov 88 21:25:03 GMT
 
 
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (julian macassey) writes:
 
>    I am looking for an authoritative reference for the term
>OCTOTHORPE. ... ( An octothorpe is an # ... )
 
Well, this isn't authoritative, it's intuitive, but I _think_ it refers
to the symbol as used on a complex organ's key, for a particular mode.
 
>Julian Macassey, n6are       julian@bongo   voice (213) 653-4495
 
-- richard
 
 
-- 
 *                Any excuse will serve a tyrant.      -- Aesop               *
 *                                                                            *
 *      ..{amdahl|decwrl|octopus|pyramid|ucbvax}!avsd.UUCP!childers@tycho     *
 *          AMPEX Corporation - Audio-Visual Systems Division, R & D          *
 
 
To: comp-dcom-telecom
From: [email protected] (F. L. Charles Seeger III)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 1 Dec 88 15:42:09 GMT
 
 
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (HECTOR MYERSTON) writes:
|
|	All my Bell System references call # The Number Sign (or Pound).
|The only times I see it called an Octothrope is in Northern Telecom Inc
|publications talking about Digipulse Dialing, "their name" for DTMF.
|	The Japanese routinely call it a "Sharp".  Obscure to me, logical
|to the musically inclined.
 
I usually refer to as "sharp", but may change to octothorpe -- I sometimes
like to tilt at windmills.  What are the names of the other ASCII special
symbols?  For instance, "&" is an ampersand and "*" an asterisk.  Are
there any fancy (preferrably single word) names for the others?  I.e names
not of the form "* [sign|mark|symbol]".  Does anyone have a reference on
these things, probably a typography reference?
 
The terms that I use, about which I'm fairly confident:
~  tilde
() [left|right|open|close] parenthesis
[] [left|right|open|close] bracket
{} [left|right|open|close] brace
<> [left|right|open|close] carat
^  circumflex
_  underscore
.  period
,  comma
;  semi-colon
:  colon
 
What about the following: ? ! @ $ % / \ | + = - ` ' "
 
If I get responses by Email, I'll summarize in a couple of weeks.
Also, feel free to suggest a more appropriate newsgroup.
 
--
  Charles Seeger            216 Larsen Hall
  Electrical Engineering    University of Florida
  [email protected]        Gainesville, FL 32611
 
[Moderator's inane comment: PUH-LEASE! write direct to Charlie on this; not
to me. I do not give an iota what those things are called! And now, here is
that rebuttal message...]
 
 
		
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected] (Ron Natalie)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe
Date: 1 Dec 88 22:15:50 GMT
 
 
 
Nope, # is called pound because it is used as a symbol for
pounds (weight).  I really expect the brits would put the
Pound Sterling where the $ is on a typewriter keyboards.
 
-Ron
 
 
[And there you have it. All the questions you were embarrassed to ask your
Mother Company all nicely summarized for you by the Octothorpe Digest people
in simple, easy to read format you would not be reluctant to share with your
own children when they are old enough to ask the name of that 'funny looking
key below the nine.'   [....] ]
 
------------------------------
 
End of TELECOM Digest
*********************

TELECOM Digest     Mon, 27 Aug 90 00:30:00 CDT    Volume 10 : Issue 598
 
                               A B S T R A C T

Inside This Issue:                         Moderator: Patrick A. Townson
 
    Octothorpes [Frederick Roeber]
 
------------------------------
 
From: "Roeber, Frederick" <[email protected]>
Subject: Octothorpes
Reply-To: [email protected]
Organization: Caltech & CERN
Date: 25 AUG 90 14:41:37    
 
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Programmin'
up a storm.) writes...
 
>On a similar vein: there was a discussion several years ago about the
># sign.  While this may be called "octothorpe" in Bell parlance, 
 
Along with the usual "wham" (or "bang") for `!', "splat" for `*',
"hat" for `^', and sometimes "hunh" for `?', I've often heard and used
"thud" for `#'.  (thud as in pound, `#' can be a pound sign.)
"Octothorpe," indeed!
 
 
Frederick
 
------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
TELECOM Digest     Thu, 30 Aug 90 21:43:32 CDT    Volume 10 : Issue 607
 
                               A B S T R A C T
 
Inside This Issue:                         Moderator: Patrick A. Townson

    Re: Octothorpes [John Slater]
    Re: Octothorpes [Jeremy Grodberg]
------------------------------
 
From: John Slater <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Octothorpes
Date: 29 Aug 90 13:18:32 GMT
Reply-To: John Slater <[email protected]>
Organization: sundc.East.Sun.COM
 
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Roeber,
Frederick) writes
 
|> Along with the usual "wham" (or "bang") for `!', "splat" for `*',
|> "hat" for `^', and sometimes "hunh" for `?', I've often heard and used
|> "thud" for `#'.  (thud as in pound, `#' can be a pound sign.)
|> "Octothorpe," indeed!
 
'#` is called "hash" in the UK - I was convinced this was US in origin
until I started reading TELECOM Digest. Also '!` is "shriek" for some
people.
 
When you say '#` is a pound sign, do you mean pounds as in weight
(it's never used for that purpose in the UK), or pounds sterling? We
have our own symbol for pounds sterling which I can't reproduce here
as it's not part of ASCII, so we often use '#` for this purpose,
especially in email.
 
 
John Slater
Sun Microsystems UK, Gatwick Office
 
------------------------------
 
From: Jeremy Grodberg <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Octothorpes
Date: 30 Aug 90 02:44:40 GMT
Reply-To: Jeremy Grodberg <[email protected]>
Organization:  
 
 
I have also heard (and continue to use) "hook" for "?", and "hash" for
"#".
 
Jeremy Grodberg
[email protected]  
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
TELECOM Digest     Sun, 2 Sep 90 00:01:17 CDT    Volume 10 : Issue 614
 
                               A B S T R A C T

Inside This Issue:                         Moderator: Patrick A. Townson

    Re: Octothorpes [Clive Carmock]
------------------------------
 
From: Clive Carmock <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Octothorpes
Date: 1 Sep 90 13:25:52 GMT
Reply-To: Clive Carmock <[email protected]>
Organization: Computer Science Dept. - University of Exeter. UK
 
 
On the subject of what to call '#' - The British Telecom announcements
on System X exchanges call it 'SQUARE'.  When I was recently talking
to a BT operator (I could get on of the star services to work) I
assumed that 'SQUARE' was the BT word for it, so that was the term I
used, only to confuse the operator, who asked me to describe the
symbol.  This I duly did, and she said 'Oh you mean HASH, no-one ever
calls it SQUARE'.  That being the case, you would think that BT would
change their announcements.  I have heard some PABX units with
synthesised speech call it 'GATE'.
 
 
Clive Carmock
 
------------------------------

 
TELECOM Digest     Wed, 12 Sep 90 00:22:12 CDT    Volume 10 : Issue 635
 
                               A B S T R A C T

Inside This Issue:                         Moderator: Patrick A. Townson
 
    Re: Octothorpes [Davidson Corry]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 90 14:12:22 PDT
From: Davidson Corry <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Octothorpes
 
 
In article <[email protected]> Jeremy Grodberg ([email protected].
edu) writes:
 
>I have also heard (and continue to use) "hook" for ? and "hash" for #
 
"Hash" is, I believe, a corruption of "hatch": "to mark with lines,
esp. closely-set parallel lines" (American College Dictionary 1959 --
old but serviceable!).  I have seen # referred to as a "hatch mark".
 
I have also seen # as "thorn" or "thorne", but I believe this is a
mistake, either a misspelling "octothorne", or a misapplication of the
name of the Norse rune for the "th" sound, still used in Icelandic.  I
_think_ the rune is
                       \/
                       /
                          but maybe we have someone on the net from
Reykjavik who can help me out... <grin>
 
 
Davidson Corry  [email protected]   uunet!icxn!dai
 
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
TELECOM Digest     Wed, 12 Sep 90 21:05:00 CDT    Volume 10 : Issue 638
 
                               A B S T R A C T

Inside This Issue:                         Moderator: Patrick A. Townson
 
    Re: Octothorpes [Robert E. Zabloudil]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
From: "Robert E. Zabloudil" <nol2105%[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Octothorpes
Date: 12 Sep 90 15:44:58 GMT
Organization: Defense Logistics Agency Systems Automation Center, Columbus
 
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Davidson Corry)
writes:
X-Telecom-Digest: Volume 10, Issue 635, Message 9 of 13
 
*>In article <[email protected]> Jeremy Grodberg ([email protected].
*>edu) writes:
 
*>I have also seen # as "thorn" or "thorne", but I believe this is a
*>mistake, either a misspelling "octothorne", or a misapplication of the
*>name of the Norse rune for the "th" sound, still used in Icelandic.  I
*>_think_ the rune is
*>                       \/
*>                       /
 
*>but maybe we have someone on the net from Reykjavik who can help
*>me out... <grin>
 
I'm not Icelandic (as you may have surmised from my name), but I've
done some reading on early English (Anglo-Saxon).
 
Our 'th sound', or thorn, was written at one time with a letter that,
as you show, indeed looked much like the modern y.  If you've ever
seen those cute little signs that say *Ye Olde Shoppe*, that's
actually a carryover from Old English.  Of couse, if you pronounce it
as you know it's really written, you get interviewed by polite
gentlemen in white coats.
 
 
Bob Zabloudil
DSAC-OLC
 
std.disclaimer claimed, of course
 
------------------------------

    Now, *I* couldn't call it a hash mark because during my formative
    years spent with Uncle Sam a "hash mark" was a "/" on the sleeve
    of a uniform denoting years of service.
    
    Looks like when I access our Audix answering service I'll continue
    to pound the pound sign.
    
    						Don

    Following are some interesting names I've heard various people use
    in college.
    
       Integration symbol - "Squig"
       Closed Integral    - "Circle Squig"   
       Minus sign (-)     - "Neg"
       To the power of    - "Po"
       Divided by         - "Div"
       Square root of     - "Squirt"
       Greek Alpha char.  - "Fish thing"
    
       				Paul K.

The term "div" is used in the Pascal computer language to indicate
integer division as oppsoed to real division, which is meant by the
slash.  "5 div 2" returns 2 as its resuilt.

The term "squirt" is merely a corruption of SQRT, which appears in
several computer languages.

-d