Conference tallis::celt

I hope and pray that there will be peace soon in N.I. I heard an interview with 
John Hume of the SDLP on French radio, he speaks very good French, he 
believes that this would be a starting point for peace over the next few
years.

I sincerly hope that all the killings will stop and reason will prevail.

Rene

    >>                  -< Ireland unfree shall never be at peace >-
    
	Rene,
    
    Why bother with such pointless slogans ?  Do you really believe that if
    British troopswithdraw and Irelandis united, then peace will prevail ? 
    If you do believe that, you are either very naive or very stupid.  
    
    Try thinking for yourself instead of mindlessly repeating slogans you
    read in Republican News.   A big part of the problem is that too many
    people believe stupid catchy slogans and cease to think independantly.
    
    Mark

    
    The expected IRA ceasefire has just been officially announced this
    lunchtime.
    More to follow.............

  It's taken a U.S. "peace envoy", Mr. Morrison, to
  get us to this point.  Unfortunately, the British
  don't really want peace, and sadly we'll see in the
  next few months their attempts to destroy the peace
  process. I've yet to hear the British announce that
  they will stop colluding with the loyalist death
  squads.  Their acts of murder will probably continue.  

  Who wants to lay odds that the British are sure to
  screw it up?  They're now insisting that the Irish
  Republican Army must "surrender", in order for the
  democratically elected representatives in Sinn Fein,
  to hold a place at the peace table.  Oh, and by the
  way, after the "surrender", Sinn Fein might be 
  invited to the peace table, only might be.


  The U.S. is promissing some 100-200 million in aid 
  to northern Ireland, if peace results.  This must 
  really be straining U.S.-British relations, and 
  that's probably the best thing that will come of
  this.

                                Mark




FYI:
                        Joe Cahill at the Irish Center (Commodore Barry Club)
                                        Carpenter Lane and Emlen St
                                                Philadelphia PA
                                Wednesday, August 31, 1994 at 8:00 PM.

Supporters of the RM and all others interested in a negotiated peace with
justice and self-determination for all the Irish people are encouraged to
attend.

    So what would you prefer? Another 25 years of futile violence?
    
    Dave

    
    Mark,
    
    The majority of British DO want peace. However, I feel the Loyalists in
    NI will be the major stumbling block in any further negotiations. 
    I get the feeling that some of them (Ian Paisley etc..) would rather
    see the killing go on than North & South living together in harmony.
    
    Now that the IRA have an announced a ceasefire, just watch out for an 
    increase in random Loyalist sectarain murders, in an effort to make the
    IRA retaliate & therefor scupper any chance this country has of
    returning to sanity.
      
    

  >>   The U.S. is promissing some 100-200 million in aid 
  >>   to northern Ireland, if peace results.  This must 
    
    This is good.  It's important to remember that this is very little
    compared to the amount of money poured into NI simply because it is
    part ofthe UK.  So whether NI actually benefits from the US aid will
    obviously be determined by what form any peace would take.
    
  >>      really be straining U.S.-British relations, and 
  >>	  that's probably the best thing that will come of
  >>	  this.
    
    As we all know (and you've proved yet again), you are not about peace
    in Ireland Mark.  This is just one big Brit-bashing exercise.   What
    will you do if British troops withdraw, Ireland is united and a lasting
    peace ensues ?  What will you insult us with next ?  Maybe you'll
    support an armed struggle in Scotland.   Maybe you'll demand
    reparations for the Amritsar Massacre or the Dresden bombing or even
    the Culloden Massacre and it's aftermath.  I'm sure you'll find
    something.  I wish I lived in a country with so few problems of it's
    own that I could concentrate on the historical misdemeanours of others.
    
    >>  process. I've yet to hear the British announce that
    >>  they will stop colluding with the loyalist death
    >>   squads.  Their acts of murder will probably continue.  
    
    I've yet to hear that they've started.  You've said it.  You've said
    that AI have said it.  Unfortunately no-one else can seem to find the
    bit where AI say it.  
    
    >>	  Who wants to lay odds that the British are sure to
    >>    screw it up?  They're now insisting that the Irish
    
    It depends what you mean by British.  If you mean hardline Loyalists 
    then, yes, they will certainly try to scupper the whole thing.  I
    suspect that they will use ruthless violence too.  You must remember
    that not only are these people sick B*%#%%(&'s, they also have a
    massive chip on their shoulder bewcause they feel that they are being
    betrayed. They have lived in Northern Ireland for longer than any
    Europeans have been in America. They consider NI their home and their
    territory every bit as much as you consider Mass. yours.
    
    Mark.  If you really want to help, you should start petitioning James
    Molyneaux and the Ulster Unionists ASAP.  Paisley and his crew are
    beyond reason but if the Ulster Unionists can be convinced that this
    can work, then there is every chance of success.
    
    Think about it.
    
    Mark 

    
    The Loyalist Paramilitaries have issued a statement urging James
    Molyneaux and Ian Paisley, who are meeting John Major this afternoon in
    London, to find out if a deal has been done between British Govt. and
    Sinn Fein. This was an interesting statement as it did not condemn the 
    ceasefire out of hand.
    
    A lot will now depend on what Molyneaux says after the meeting and if
    he can allay loyalists fear of a sell out then this might just have a
    chance.
    
    
    All in all a day for hope.
    
    Des.  
    

    Can someone post the IRA's full statement?...
    
    thx,    Ray

re .4,

pretty destructive and belligerent attitude you have there.  I just hope
that none of the people who matter, be they British or Irish, share your
sentiment.

Of course maybe you're just a bit sore that you may lose your favourite
excuse for Brit-bashing.  I always thought that your sentiment toward
Ireland was a bit suspect.

Back to reality, I really hope that this works out, and that an amicable
and lasting agreement can be reached by both sides.

Chris.

                      <<< Note 1404.4 by KOALA::HOLOHAN >>>
                      -< The British do not want peace. >-


>  It's taken a U.S. "peace envoy", Mr. Morrison, to
>  get us to this point. 

   Mr Morrison , as we all know, was heavily involved in the
   Downing Street Declaration - its just he placed an "X" in the 
   no publicity box.

  
>                          Unfortunately, the British
>  don't really want peace, and sadly we'll see in the
>  next few months their attempts to destroy the peace
>  process. 

This is an interesting hypothesis. Why , indeed should the British want peace?
Surely flushing billions of pounds down toilet, having innocent people killed
and maimed, and being saddled with what appeared to be an insoluble problem
is a much more attractive alternative.

>              I've yet to hear the British announce that
>  they will stop colluding with the loyalist death
>  squads.  Their acts of murder will probably continue.  


Do you have this in your paste buffer??

>  Who wants to lay odds that the British are sure to
> screw it up?  They're now insisting that the Irish
>  Republican Army must "surrender", in order for the
>  democratically elected representatives in Sinn Fein,
>  to hold a place at the peace table.  Oh, and by the
>  way, after the "surrender", Sinn Fein might be 
>  invited to the peace table, only might be.


I don't know why you have a problem with this. The IRA appear to find it 
acceptable.


 > The U.S. is promissing some 100-200 million in aid 
 > to northern Ireland, if peace results.   

My understanding was that the aid was for the whole of Ireland. In the context
of the costs incurred by  both the Irish Republic and Britain in order to 
protect innocent people, it is nothing.
                       
>                                         This must
> really be straining U.S.-British relations, and 
>  that's probably the best thing that will come of
>  this.


I understand that you were born in England and then moved to America , so I 
would have thought that you would want cordial relations between the two
countries. I find it a little upsetting that on a day when most people
see cause for hope , you can only look at the negative side of things, and
look for schisms between nations that are working for peace.




sl�n leat,

Stuart



BTW Mark, has it ever occurred to you that Dublin may not want the North?

    The loyalist para's have been saying for weeks now that if the IRA
    calls a ceasefire, then they will also. Lets hope this is the case.
    After all, they claim to be reactionary groups and therefore cannot
    exist if there is no organisation to react against.
    Personally, I don't think any major deal has been done between the IRA
    and British government. IMO Gerry Adams has been trying to negotiate
    a ceasefire with the 'ra' since his talks with Hume, but it has taken
    this amount of time to win over all the IRA. After all it would be
    pretty pointless for the IRA to call a ceasfire only for a breakaway
    group to start the whole thing all over again - like the official IRA
    and Provisional IRA split in the early seventies.
    If the IRA want to negotiate anything immediately, it will be the
    question of "P.O.W"'s.
    
    Conor. 

    RE: .2  by AYOV20::MRENNISON 
    
    >>>                  -< Ireland unfree shall never be at peace >-
    
	>Rene,
    
    >Why bother with such pointless slogans ?  Do you really believe that if
    >British troopswithdraw and Irelandis united, then peace will prevail ? 
    >If you do believe that, you are either very naive or very stupid.  
    
    "Ireland unfree shall never be at peace" .nes "Free Ireland at peace"
    
    While the first is true, the second is only possible.  We can only hope.
    

    >betrayed. They have lived in Northern Ireland for longer than any
    >Europeans have been in America. They consider NI their home and their
    >territory every bit as much as you consider Mass. yours.
    
    I think Mark is in New Hampshire, not Mass. We have our own border
    over here too.  Except that it is armed with NH toll takers.  :v)
    
    A good day anyhow.  Hopefully, the Unionists paras will also call a 
    ceasefire, all parties will negociate in a civil manner, NI can be
    *de-militarized*, the British soldiers can go home, and NI can
    become a more peaceful place to live.
    
    The irony is that NI is a beautiful place, the scenery and its people.
    Hopefully another chapter in Ireland is over.
    
    Si/ocha/in,
    George

    re. -< Ireland unfree shall never be at peace >-
    
    anyway, the actual saying is :
    
    "Ireland, unfree, shall never be at rest."
    
    Just to nit-pick !
    
    Conor.

    Political slogans, however convenient, can be damaging.  By asserting
    that 'Ireland unfree will never be at rest' implies that a free Ireland
    *will* be at rest.
    
    Let me tell you a slogan, daubed on a Belfast Wall and pictured on the
    front of today's Glasgow Herald...
    
    "Death to all Irish Nationalists.  Better to die on your feet than to
    live on your knees in a United Ireland."
    
    This is all chilling stuff and it frightens the hell out of me.  It is
    also blatently untrue.   If all sides stick to their own slogans and
    even try to assert them as fact, then you can expect another 25 years
    of the same.
    
    Please try to add something constructive.  The IRA have changed their
    gameplan and the loyalists appear not to have reacted badly.  Hopefully
    Mr Molyneaux can maintain the relatively calm atmosphere and
    constructive dialogue can begin. I can tell you now that if any of
    the sides start to use theold slogans as the basis of their dialogue
    then there is no hope at all.  
    
    
    Mark   
      
    

  I too would like to get excited over the prospect
  of peace, but I'm a realist. The positive things,
  are that Joe Cahill, is here in the U.S. to talk,
  and will be in Boston soon.  The positive things
  are that a U.S. peace envoy has gotten this stale
  process moving.  The positive things are the hints
  that the U.S. might not only provide more financial
  aid, but also ensure that the British play fair.

"This is an interesting hypothesis. Why , indeed should the British want peace?
Surely flushing billions of pounds down toilet, having innocent people killed
and maimed, and being saddled with what appeared to be an insoluble problem
is a much more attractive alternative."

  Good point, I can't understand why the British have
  done this for the past 25 years, either.  All I do
  know is that they have, and that's a long time for
  them to change their ways.

  Let's see some British deeds, not British words.
  We all know what British words are worth.

                     Mark

P.S.
  Did the British censor Ian Paisley when he called
  for civil war today?  Nope.
  Do the British censor Gerry Adams when he calls for
  peace?  Yep.
  Draw your own conclusions.

 
"Recognising the potential of the current situation and in order
to advance the democratic peace process the IRA will call a ceasefire from
midnight, Wednesday, August 31. It will be a complete cessation of
military operations and all our units have been instructed accordingly.'

``Our struggle has seen many gains and advances made by
nationalists for the democratic position.

``We believe we are entering a new situation, a new opportunity and we
note that the Downing Street Declaration is not a solution nor was it
presented as such by its authors.

``A solution will only be found as a result of inclusive negotiations.
Others, not least the British Government, have a duty to face up to their
responsibilities.

``In our desire to significantly contribute to the creation of a climate
which will encourage this, we urge everybody to approach this new
situation with determination and patience.''

    

     Lets hope this is the start of a lasting peace,and all differences
    will be settled with the ballot box....And lets really be glad that
    there aren't to many that have the same line of thinking as Holohan.
    
    
              SCott

I for one am truely, very happy that today in Ireland and else where that some
small village won't get it heart blown out of it. So that people can live there
with out the fear and the devistation, and I am overjoyed that in the comming
weeks and month that some family will be spared the lost of a family member (a
loved one).

I only hope that both sides can reconcile and that the loyalist can react in a
similar manner so that this plage can be gone for good. I hope that peace will
sustain so that Ireland can one again return to a green a peaceful land full of
warm,caring wonderful people.


Peter

    re .18
    
    
    You don't give up Holohan do you? .18 is not the whole declaration it
    is your edited version which once again gives a biased view.
    
    I challenge you to admit that and put the full statement in here
    including the last paragraph.
    
    Go on, try and re-gain your credibility

                 IRA STATEMENT ON THE CEASE-FIRE
               issued in Dublin on August 31, 1994


     Recognizing the potential of the current situation,
and in order to enhance the democratic peace process and
underline our definitive commitment to its success, the
leadership of Oglaigh na hEireann have decided that tonight,
August 31, there will be a complete cessation of military
operations. All our units have been instructed accordingly.

     At this historic crossroads, the leadership of Oglaigh na
hEireann salutes and commends our volunteers, other activists and
supporters, and political prisoners who have sustained the
struggle against all odds for the past 25 years. Your courage,
determination and sacrifice have demonstrated that the spirit of
freedom and the desire for peace, based on a just and lasting
settlement cannot be crushed. We remember all those have died for
Irish freedom, and we reiterate our commitment to our republican
objectives. Our struggle has seen many gains and advances made by
the nationalists and for the democratic position.

     We believe that an opportunity to secure a just and lasting
settlement has been created. We are therefore entering
into a new situation in a spirit of determination and confidence.
Determined that the injustice which created this conflict will be
removed, and confident in the strength and confidence of our
struggle to achieve this.

     We note that the Downing Street Declaration is not a
solution, nor was it presented as such by its authors. A solution
will only be found as a result of inclusive negotiations. Others,
not  the least the British government have a duty to face up to
their responsibilities. It is our desire to significantly
contribute to the creation of a climate which will encourage
this. We urge everyone to approach this new situation with
energy, determination and patience.

  In case anyone has missed the celebrating in 
  Belfast on the T.V. news, here's the UPI story.


    Nationalists celebrate IRA statement

UPn  8/31/94 3:27 PM

By CHRIS THORNTON
   BELFAST, Northern Ireland, Aug. 31 (UPI) -- Catholics
 paraded through the streets of nationalist areas of Belfast
 waving the Irish tricolor and honking horns Wednesday to
 celebrate the Irish Republican Army's cease-fire declaration.
   While the reaction from the Protestant majority in Northern
 Ireland was cautious or sometimes dismissive, in nationalist
 west Belfast people were celebrating the IRA statement as a
 victory in the battle for a united Ireland.
   Gerry Adams, leader of the IRA political wing Sinn Fein, told
 a cheering crowd outside party headquarters that while the
 violent campaign had halted, the struggle for a "free and
 united Irish Republic" would continue.
   Adams called on the British government to respond to the
 IRA cease- fire with constitutional change, demilitarization of
 Northern Ireland and freedom for nationalist prisoners.
   Leaders of the nationalist movement angered many in Britain
 and the loyalist community by making a point Wednesday to
 honor the IRA fighters and prisoners involved in the bloody
 25-year struggle that has left 3, 168 people dead.
   "This is a generation of men and women who have fought the
 British for the last 25 years and who are undefeated by the
 British," Adams told the crowd. Some of those at Sinn Fein
 headquarters climbed on the roofs of houses to get a view of
 the top republican leadership. Others waved Irish flags and
 held banners, one of which said, "Time for peace -- Brits must
 go."
   Adams said the next move was up to the British government,
 and he called on Northern Ireland's unionists "to join with
 us...in creating a new future for all of the people of this island,
 for all of the Irish people."
   "We have waited for too long for our freedom," Adams said.
 "We are demanding that Mr. Major's government take decisive
 steps now to move forward."
   Nationalists sought to assure the highly skeptical Protestant
 majority, long the target of IRA attacks because of its desire
 for Ulster to remain part of the United Kingdom, that it no
 longer had anything to fear from nationalist desires for a
 united Ireland.
   "We are Irish people, we are no better and no worse than
 anyone else," Adams said. "But we are going to have our
 freedom, and that freedom is going to embrace unionists and
 nationalists, Catholics and Protestants in a free and united
 Irish Republic."

    Sadly, a section of the loyalist paramilitaries have NOTresponded
    positively.  Last night a Catholic man was shot dead while fixing his
    car.  A taxi driver was shot at, but was unharmed.
    
    Mark

 This morning a member of the Progressive Unionist Party, hardline and in
 regular contact with the loyalist paramiliteries, stated that it is possible
 that the loyalists will make their own announcement next week.i.e. declare 
 their own ceasefire.

  Hope that this will happen without any more bloodshed but I believe that the
  loyalist paramiliteries will use this time to settle old scores and that means 
  all Catholics are targets, both North and South.....

  Des. 

    If I remember rightly, the Loyalist paramilitaries see them selves as
    reactionary to the IRA.  In addition, the British troops are there
    supposedlt to keep the peace and the IRA say that they are there to
    fight Britisj armed oppression.  It's all a bizarre cycle of everyone
    being a reaction to the existance of the others.
    
    Now that the IRA have broken that cycle, and that the UVF,UFF etc are
    indicating that they might do the same, maybe we will see a
    demilitarisation of the whole situation.  Just think, The whole problem
    might be addressed by debate, talking and civiloised discussion rather
    than killing, intimidation and the odd slanging match.
    
    
    As for .13.  Mr Darcy. Kindly refrain from using reason, logic and
    calm debate when noting on the Northern Ireland situation.  It's much
    easier if you stick to racism, hatred, bitterness, paranoia and
    downright stupidity. 
    
    
    Mark

    >As for .13.  Mr Darcy. Kindly refrain from using reason, logic and
    >calm debate when noting on the Northern Ireland situation.  It's much
    >easier if you stick to racism, hatred, bitterness, paranoia and
    >downright stupidity. 
    
    I didn't author .13.  That is Dennis's note.

    RE: .27   by TALLIS::DARCY 
    
    >>As for .13.  Mr Darcy. Kindly refrain from using reason, logic and
    >>calm debate when noting on the Northern Ireland situation.  It's much
    >>easier if you stick to racism, hatred, bitterness, paranoia and
    >>downright stupidity. 
    
    >I didn't author .13.  That is Dennis's note.
    
    Nobody's ever accused me of being reasonable.
    

    Without meaning to cause offence to either George of Dennis, I actually
    meant to highlight the unacceptable content on 1405.13 and not 1404.13 
    as stated
    
    Apologies for any confusion caused.  
                                                                             
    
    Mark

                         ********************************



                                      NPR
                     SHOW: Morning Edition (NPR 6:00 am ET)

                               September  1, 1994

    Northern Ireland is Quiet on Day One of Cease-Fire

GUESTS: MARTIN McGINNIS, Vice President, Sinn Fein; JOHN MAJOR, Prime Minister,

Britain; ALBERT REYNOLDS, Prime Minister,  Ireland

BYLINE: MICHAEL GOLDFARB

The first day of the cease-fire between  Ireland  and British troops went
without a hitch. Now plans are being made to invite Sinn Fein to participate in

talks with government representatives.


   ALEX CHADWICK, Host: On day one of the Irish Republican Army's cease-fire,
Northern  Ireland  is quiet.  Overnight there were celebrations in staunch
nationalist Catholic areas of the province.  Outside police stations, IRA
supporters chanted and sang victory songs.  This morning, as the revelers slept

it off, the main political players in the story were preparing for the next step

in the peace process, inviting the IRA's political wing, Sinn Fein, to talks on

Northern  Ireland's  future.  From Belfast, NPR's Michael Goldfard reports.

MICHAEL GOLDFARB, Reporter: An IRA decision to bring a total and permanent end
to its 25-year-long campaign of violence is the prerequisite of the British and

Irish governments for Sinn Fein's participation in constitutional talks on
Northern  Ireland's  future.  The question that developed around the IRA's
announcement yesterday was, 'Did the organization's language in the
announcement, that they were calling a complete cessation of military
operations, go far enough?'

Martin McGuinnis, Sinn Fein's vice president, is certain that it did.

MARTIN McGUINNIS, Vice President, Sinn Fein: We're looking for the British
government to act decisively.  We're looking for the British government to seize

the moment.  We're looking for the British government to recognize that here we

have what is a golden opportunity to finally resolve a conflict which has gone
on here for hundreds of years, but- and with a particular intensity for the last

25 years.

GOLDFARB: McGinnis, 44 years old, has been an influential figure in the
Republican movement for two decades.  In 1972, the first time the IRA called a
cease-fire, he and Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams, were part of a delegation
that met with British officials.  Nothing came of those talks, and the violence

resumed.  Today McGinnis says the situation is different because of the
involvement of the Irish government and the open support of the United States
for the peace process.  But, McGinnis adds the onus remains with the British
government to take the lead in resolving the conflict.

Mr. McGUINNIS: I think it has put us on the threshold of a new beginning, a new
future, and a new phase of our history.

GOLDFARB: So far, British Prime Minister John Major has been cautious in his
response to the IRA cease-fire.  He's not convinced that the language of the
cease-fire meets the criteria set out in the Downing Street Declaration.

JOHN MAJOR, Prime Minister, Britain: What we said in the joint declaration was
that if violence ended permanently, and was then shown to have ended for a
period of up to three months, within that three-month period we would begin to
discuss with Sinn Fein how they could subsequently join the constitutional
talks.  Now, no British government can do that under duress.

GOLDFARB: Major went on to say that he wasn't looking for a semantic argument.

Prime Minister MAJOR: I'm not hung up on the particular words, but, if they
think they're particularly British words and they don't want to use them, I'm
not hung up on that.  What I want is the unambiguous statement that violence is

over for good.

GOLDFARB: The view of Irish Prime Minister Albert Reynolds differs from his
British colleague.  He's convinced the cease-fire is genuine.

ALBERT REYNOLDS, Prime Minister,  Ireland:  Whatever words you may choose to
determine, or, indeed, to try and convince yourself of what's going to happen,
the proof will be what is delivered on the ground.  That statement says what
it means, and it will be delivered on the ground, and, indeed, any skepticism
that is being expressed tonight, I think over the days and weeks ahead will be
shown to be groundless.

GOLDFARB: The public differences between the British and Irish governments and
Sinn Fein leaders continues a pattern that has marked the 18 months of maneuvers

that led to the cease-fire.  The British government, and Sinn Fein in
particular, make public statements not just for the general population, but, for

their special constituents.  Protestant unionists are the British government's
special constituency.  John Major relies on unionist members of parliament to
help get his legislation through the House of Commons, and there are historical

ties between the unionists and his conservative party.  Unionist reaction to the

IRA cease-fire has ranged from skeptical to outraged.  The pro-unionist Belfast

newsletter This Morning said the cease-fire was incomplete.  The paper
editorialized, 'Of the massive caches of arms, ammunition, and explosives, in
IRA hands, there was no mention.  They are still firmly in place.  And,' the
newsletter implied, 'ready to be used again.'

Much of Major's skepticism is aimed at placating that section of the community.

But, over the last 18 months, it's become clear that public statements are a
mask for intense, back channel contact, and it may be a little while yet before

the British government's real attitude to the cease-fire is clear, and whether
concessions to Sinn Fein, such as the transfer of IRA prisoners from England to

Northern  Ireland,  and the lifting of the broadcasting ban on Sinn Fein, are on

the cards.

One woman in the jubilant crowd on the Catholic Anderson's Town Road in Belfast

yesterday was convinced that these concessions would come soon.

BELFAST RESIDENT: I think the serious issues have already been decided.  I think

the deals have already been struck.  I think they already know what to do.  I
think this is all- this is taking it one step at a time.  I think it was
probably thought out a long time ago that- it was 25 years this year.  I think
the very fact that it came at such a significant time, I think it's been thought

of long before now.

GOLDFARB: Her view may be optimistic, but, this morning, most people in Northern

Ireland  feel a giant step has been taken down a long, hopeful road.  I'm
Michael Goldfarb in Belfast.



                             *************************

                                      NPR

                  SHOW: All Things Considered (NPR 4:30 pm ET)

                                August  31, 1994


               IRA Announces Cease-Fire After 25 Years of Violence

GUESTS: GERRY ADAMS, Sinn Fein;JOHN McCLELLAN, Northern  Ireland  Civil Rights
Association;BERNADETTE DEVLIN;Rev. IAN PAISLEY

BYLINE: NEAL CONAN

Neal Conan traces the history of Northern Ireland from 1969 up until today
when the IRA announced a cease-fire. Protestants as well as Catholics have been

blamed for the violence of the last 25 years.

NOAH ADAMS, Host: The IRAs announce cease-fire in Northern Ireland.  The story
on NPR's All Things Considered.  Today in Belfast, among Catholics, there's
jubilation at the news that the Irish Republican Army will cease military
activity.  Many Protestants, though, remain skeptical.

IAN PAISLEY, Unionist Politician: Well, I thought that the British government
had made the terms that violence was to be renounced.  Well, is violence
renounced in this document?  Can you show me one word that says that they're
deep and bitterly sorry for the mayhem they've caused?

ADAMS: We'll review the last 25 years, known in Northern  Ireland  as the Time
of the Troubles.  Also, reaction to the cease-fire from the Irish-American
community in Boston.  That and more coming up on All Things Considered.  Now
this hour's news.



ADAMS: This is All Things Considered.  I'm Noah Adams.  Today, President Clinton

welcomed the prospect of peace in Northern  Ireland.   Mr. Clinton said the IRA

cease-fire would help usher in a new era of peace.  This morning, the Irish
Republican Army announced it would end all its military operations.  The
unilateral cease-fire goes into effect at this hour.  In Irish Catholic
strongholds of Northern  Ireland,  there are celebrations today.  The leader of

Sinn Fein, the political arm of the IRA, called the cease-fire a first step.

GERRY ADAMS, Sinn Fein: Well, I think that it has opened up an opportunity.  A
moment has been reached at a decisive moment, not just in the Republican
struggle but in the hatchery of Anglo/Irish relationships, and I think the
British government need to seize the moment.

ADAMS: However, British Prime Minister John Major wants assurances that the IRA

action will be permanent.  The news comes after 25 years of open conflict,
most of it in the streets, homes, and pubs of Northern  Ireland.   But
sometimes, the IRA attacked in Britain itself or against British targets in
Europe.  The Protestants of Northern Ireland developed their own paramilitary
groups, which are responsible for a good share of the 3,168 people killed in
bombings, shootings, and riots since 1969.  So far, those Protestant groups have

not indicated what their response to the IRA cease-fire will be.  Many view the

past 25 years of violence as a continuation of the centuries long struggle to
force the British out of  Ireland.   What's now the Republic of  Ireland  won
its independence in 1917, but Britain retained control of six northeastern
counties where Protestants make up a majority of the population.  They are
fiercely loyal to the union of Northern Ireland  and Britain and deeply
suspicious of any arrangement that might force them to become part of a largely

Catholic united  Ireland.   We begin our coverage on the developments in
Northern  Ireland  with a report from NPR's Neal Conan on the last quarter
century, known as the Troubles.

NEAL CONAN, Reporter: In the summer of 1969, a group called the Northern
 Ireland  Civil Rights Association took inspiration from the nonviolent struggle

of African-Americans in the United States, and spokesmen like John McClellan
[sp] issued demands against religious discrimination.

JOHN McCLELLAN, Northern  Ireland  Civil Rights Association: We were asking
for fair elections, that all man, regardless of religion or regardless of
politics, should have equal opportunities in jobs and housing.

CONAN: Civil rights marchers were attacked by Protestant police auxiliaries
known as the B Specials.  The violence spread to the big cities of Londonderry
and Belfast, and 25 years ago this month, British troops were called in.  They
were seen at first as the protectors of the Catholic community, but that didn't

last long.  At the time, the Irish Republican Army was almost more abound, a
small group of Marxist intellectuals.  In response to the crisis, a much more
militant group broke away to form the provisional wing of the IRA.  The Provos,

as they became known, set out to defend the Catholic community and to attack the

British army they saw as the protector of Protestant supremacy.  The situation
deteriorated, and in 1972, after British troops killed 13 Catholic demonstrators

in Derry in an incident that came to be called Bloody Sunday, the British
government took its first major political initiative.  Northern  Ireland
provincial parliament, called Stormont, was suspended, and a British government

minister assumed direct political control.  The move infuriated the Protestants,

and as the charismatic Bernadette Devlin made clear, it cut little ice with the

Catholics.

BERNADETTE DEVLIN: It wasn't Westminster that was head of Stormont.  It wasn't
[unintelligible] and the Northern Ireland  [unintelligible] that got rid of
Stormont.  It wasn't the [unintelligible] trodden half sober and half drunk
through the lobbies of Westminster that got rid of Stormont.  We got rid of it.

It was us that did it.  It was us that walked it and marched it and fought it
and bonded and shut it out of existence.

CONAN: Within a month, the violence was worse than ever.  In the years that
followed, Protestant groups such as the Ulster Freedom Fighters added yet
another dimension to the conflict.  Both the Protestants and the IRA employed
death squads to murder their opponents and bombs that often seemed to have no
purpose but terror.  One peace initiative after another was overtaken by the
relentless killing.  Even the once promising nonsectarian campaign of the
Belfast Peace Women that won the Nobel Prize collapsed.  Moderates on all sides

were drowned out by the politics of the latest atrocity.  IRA prisoner Bobby
Sands starved himself to death in a hunger strike in 1981.  In 1984, the IRA
nearly killed British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher as she slept at a hotel
in Brighton.  Finally, in late 1985, the British and Irish government signed the

Anglo-Irish Accords, and agreement that for the first time accepted the fact
that the Irish Republic had a legitimate role in the affairs of the North.
Exactly what that role would be wasn't spelled out, but Northern  Ireland's
Protestants knew they didn't want any part of it, as The Reverend Ian Paisley
made clear.

Rev. IAN PAISLEY: No today, no tomorrow, no forever.

CONAN: And while the Protestant resistance prevented the implementation of much

of the Anglo-Irish Accords, the structures established by the agreement never
quite went away either.  They could now form the basis for any negotiations that

follow from today's cease-fire.  This is Neal Conan reporting.


                             ************************

                                      NPR

                  SHOW: All Things Considered (NPR 4:30 pm ET)

                                August  31, 1994

                     IRA Cease-Fire Draws Different Reactions

GUESTS: MARTIN McGUINESS, Sinn Fein;DICK SPRING, Irish Foreign Minister;JOHN
MAJOR, British Prime Minister;IAN PAISLEY, Unionist Politician

BYLINE: MICHAEL GOLDFARB

Michael Goldfarb reports that Irish Catholics celebrated the IRA cease-fire,
while the hardline Protestants were bitter about it. Many British officials
reacted cautiously towards it.


   NOAH ADAMS, Host: Speculation about the IRA cease-fire reached fever pitch
over the last 72 hours.  The announcement when it came this morning prompted
many different reactions on the streets of Belfast and from British and Irish
government officials.  From Belfast, NPR's Michael Goldfarb reports.

MICHAEL GOLDFARB, Reporter: In the streets of Catholic nationalist
neighborhoods, there was a holiday mood today.  Cars cruised with Irish tricolor

flags waving.  At Connelly House in Anderson's town road, Sinn Fein's leaders
were explaining to the world's press what their action meant.  Martin McGuiness,

vice president of the organization, said the cease-fire was a courageous and
sincere step by the IRA.

MARTIN McGUINESS, Sinn Fein: This is a very wholehearted attempt by the IRA to
move the peace process on.  The Irish statement says that they will become
involved in a complete cessation of military operations, and people are
accepting that at face value.  And I think that that's very helpful.

GOLDFARB: Outside Connelly House, most people were thinking about the future
with genuine hope.

1st MAN: Forget about the past.  Just draw a line now and say this is a new
beginning and start- and forget everything from the past.  Draw a line on both
sides and say that's it.  Let's go forward, not backward.  Especially for the
all the young ones now.  Let them enjoy their life.

GOLDFARB: The excitement in Belfast's Catholic community was shared by the Irish

government.  An IRA cease-fire was the first requirement of the Irish and
British governments if Sinn Fein was to be invited to take part in talks on
Northern  Ireland's  future.  It was clear that the Irish government thought a
major step had been taken.  Irish Prime Minister Albert Reynolds said, 'Every
Irish man and woman at home and abroad would welcome with thanksgiving the
announcement.' Irish Foreign Minister Dick Spring, who will travel to Martha's
Vineyard Friday to meet President Clinton, told the Irish Parliament-

DICK SPRING, Irish Foreign Minister: There's a complete cessation of military
operations, and they have given instructions accordingly.  I believe that
there's the opportunity to ensure that this is the permanent cessation of
violence that we want on this island.

GOLDFARB: British Prime Minister John Major was more cautious in his assessment

of the IRA's move.

JOHN MAJOR, British Prime Minister: The statement is very welcome, very welcome

indeed, and they may mean by it that violence is over for good.  But it doesn't

actually say that.  And what I am saying is that I wish them to make that clear.


GOLDFARB: On the streets of Protestant Loyalist Belfast, the mood was angry.
Youths stood along the peace line, the wall that separates their community, the

Shankill, from the Catholic Falls Road, waving British flags.  Hardline
Unionist politician Ian Paisley could barely contain his anger as he dismissed
the cease-fire.

IAN PAISLEY, Unionist Politician: Well, I thought that the British government
had made the terms that violence was to be renounced.  Well, is violence
renounced in this document?  Can you show me one word that says that they have
renounced, that they have had a change of heart, that they're sorry for what
they have done, that they're deep and bitterly sorry for the mayhem they've
caused.  They're saluting these men out at Belfast today.  They're around the
police stations of the Republican areas with flags celebrating.



GOLDFARB: Back at Connelly House, Martin McGuiness shrugged off the threat of
violence from Protestant hardliners.  He said the future was about all parties
talking, not fighting.

Mr. McGUINESS: We all recognize it.  We've all heard it all.  But change is
coming.  It's inevitable, it's going to happen, and the best way for it to
happen is for everybody to be involved in the discussions and the negotiations
which will make it happen.

GOLDFARB: Those discussions will take a long time, acknowledges McGuiness.
Lasting peace may still be a ways away.  I'm Michael Goldfarb in Belfast.

    Mark,
    
    You read that rag Republican News.  One of yestarday's papers reported
    that the collumn 'War News' (or similiar) refers to the ceasefire as a
    "suspension" of military activities.  Can you confirm this ?  If this
    is indeed the case, do you thinkthe IRA ceasefire is permanent ?
    
    Two questions.  Very easy.  Please don't use the 'C' word.
    
    Mark 

  re. .31

  I've no idea, I don't speak for the Irish Republican
  Army.  

  Personally, I think that all democratically elected
  representatives of the people should be invited to
  the peace table, without pre-conditions.
 

                  Mark

    
    I'm not asking you to speak for the IRA, I'm asking you what their
    publication says (you've cross-posted from Republican News before).
    
    You see, it's not freely available here so I can't verify the
    newspapers claims.

                                  The Guardian
                               September  5, 1994

                            ADAMS TO PUSH CAUSE IN US;

American visas in pipeline - Bomb heightens fears over loyalist provocation
                  by David Sharrock In Belfast And Stephen Bates


   Gerry Adams, the president of Sinn Fein, will travel to the United States in
the next fortnight, to be followed shortly after by the senior republican
Martin McGuinness, it was learned last night.

    But as the British, Irish and US governments embark on a week of intense
shuttle diplomacy to sustain the IRA ceasefire initiative, news that the
republicans' visas are in the pipeline with President Clinton's blessing will
infuriate Unionist politicians as momentum builds rapidly to bring Sinn Fein
into the constitutional fold.

    Sources in Belfast confirmed that Mr Adams will shortly fly to New York to
begin a speaking tour designed to raise support for Sinn Fein's peace strategy
among the 40 million-strong Irish-American community.

    Mr Adams, it is believed, will allay fears that the IRA ceasefire falls
short of permanent. He will also press for John Major to become a persuader of
the Unionists to join an all-Ireland negotiated settlement.

    It is understood Mr Adams has been assured that a visa of greater
flexibility and duration than the 48-hour one granted him in February will
allow him to travel widely in the USA. This is almost certainly due to
President Clinton's intervention.

   In February, the Government strongly opposed the granting of the visa for Mr
Adams to visit New York, but this was overuled by the Clinton administration.
Last night Downing Street said it had no knowledge of the visa being granted.

    The news came as Mr Major ruled out lifting the ban on Mr Adams visiting
mainland Britain in the next few months, after it emerged that he had been
invited by Labour MP Tony Benn to address a fringe meeting at the Labour Party
conference. Mr Benn's move was disowned by Tony Blair, the party leader, even
before the Government had a chance to reinforce its intention not to lift the
ban.

    Meanwhile, Albert Reynolds, the Irish Taioseach, said this weekend that he
persuaded President Clinton to waive US immigration rules and allow Mr Adams's
last visit. He said that when "the chips were down" earlier this year he told
President Clinton that a visa would strengthen Mr Adams's hand within the
republican movement. "It enhanced his stature and gave him the strength to go
back and make the argument stronger."

    Sinn Fein spokesman Richard McAuley refused to comment.

    As the diplomatic round continues, Dick Spring, the Irish deputy prime
minister, will meet Sir Patrick Mayhew, the  Northern Ireland  Secretary, in
Belfast tonight, when the Government will come under renewed Dublin pressure to

endorse the IRA ceasefire statement and "start the clock ticking" for direct
talks with Sinn Fein.

    Both Mr Major and Sir Patrick struck a conciliatory tone yesterday, anxious

to reassure Unionists but also not to deflect the peace process.


    On BBC TV's Breakfast with Frost, Mr Major called on the IRA to do "just a
little more" to guarantee the ceasefire, calling for copper-bottomed assurances

that it would hold.

    Bolstered by the repeated reassurance of Mr Reynolds on the same programme
that there could be no constitutional change in the position of Northern
Ireland  without the consent of its people, Mr Major re -emphasised that the
Government had done no deal with the IRA.

    But he appeared to concede that if the ceasefire held, the Government would

not hold out against the three-month "ticking clock" after which talks can
start. He even said he understood the IRA's political difficulties with the
word permanent, adding: "I think I can see circumstances where we could move
beyond that . . .  We would like to be absolutely copper-bottomed certain that t
   his
end to violence is for good. I think they are edging towards that.

    "I am not absolutely sure they are precisely there yet, but we will review
that over the next few days. There has been progress, and we need just a little

more. I think the end of violence will hold. The indications are that it will
hold. There is an opportunity here that I don't recall seeing before."



    In an interview on ITN, Sir Patrick added: "It would be quite enough if we
could hear them say, for example, 'this is over for good'. But we can't snatch
at it and say 'well, let's take a chance'."


                                  **************

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    So much for the British not wanting peace Holohan eh?
    Major kicks paisley out of Downing Street and uses language that can
    only be described as positive.
    Someone else has been writing about the lack of humour these days in
    this conference but I think it's going to be enormously funny when your
    rantings are finally proven to be fraudulent and we find out that Major
    really is trying to gain an equitable settlement and that the loyalists
    have nothing like the firepower and explosives or expertise that your
    rantings have tried to get us to believe.
    I can't wait.:>)

 re. .35

 Here's hoping you're right.

            Mark

UPn  9/6/94 2:40 PM

   (ED: adding meeting between Irish PM and Sinn Fein
 president)
 Irish PM meets Sinn Fein president
 By RIC CLARK
   BELFAST, Northern Ireland, Sept. 6 (UPI) -- The Irish Prime
 Minister and the president of the IRA's political wing Sinn Fein
 met for the first time Tuesday, to discuss the IRA cease-fire
 and the place it might win Sinn Fein in talks on the future of
 Northern Ireland.
   The Dublin meeting between Prime Minister Albert Reynolds,
 Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams and John Hume, leader of
 Ulster's main nationalist party, came six days after the Irish
 Republican Army announced a  "complete cessation of
 military operations."
   After the meeting Reynolds, Adams and Hume issued a joint
 statement underlining their intention to achieve "an equitable
 and lasting agreement that can command the allegiance of
 all."
   "We are at the beginning of a new era in which we are all
 totally and absolutely committed to democratic and peaceful
 methods of resolving our political problems," the statement
 said. "We reiterate that we cannot resolve this problem without
 the participation and agreement of the unionist people."
   Unlike Britain the Irish government understands the IRA
 cease-fire to be permanent and in line with demands made in
 the Downing Street Declaration for bringing Sinn Fein into the
 political process.
   Reynolds defended his decision to hold talks with Adams so
 soon after the IRA announced its cease-fire.
   "When we got a momentous decision last Wednesday night
 there is an obligation on us to solidify that and bring it
 forward," Reynolds said.
   Adams hailed the meeting as a historic occasion.
   "It's a historic day, a historic occasion and a historic
 meeting," Adams said. "We want to put an end to the ancient
 conflict and to build a lasting peace."
   Britain has repeatedly maintained that the IRA cease-fire
 statement does not confirm whether the cease-fire is
 "permanent," a word used in the Dec. 15 Anglo-Irish peace
 declaration.
   Ulster unionists reacted furiously to Adams' surprise meeting
 with Reynolds.
   They accused Reynolds of parting from the terms of the
 Downing Street Declaration which insisted that neither the
 British nor the Irish government would hold exploratory talks
 with Sinn Fein until some months after the IRA declared a
 permanent end to violence.
   Ulster Unionist member of Parliament David Trimble said the
 Irish government was "charging ahead with indecent haste to
 embrace the leader of the republican movement.
   Before leaving Belfast for a meeting with British Prime
 Minister John Major in London Democratic Unionist Party
 leader Ian Paisley accused Reynolds of elevating the Sinn
 Fein leader "to a place of credibility."
   Major broke off his meeting with Paisley abruptly when
 Paisley made it clear he did not trust Major's word. Major
 refused to answer any of Paisley's questions and dismissed
 him.
   James Molyneux, leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, said he
 thought it was "regrettable that one of the signatories of the
 Downing Street Declaration should have proceeded with
 unseemly haste a week after a mere cessation of military
 activity, not necessarily the end of terrorism."
   Leaders of the two main loyalist protestant paramilitary
 groups -- the Ulster Volunteer Force and the Ulster Defense
 Association -- were scheduled to meet Tuesday to consider
 their response to the IRA cease- fire.

----------
    In N. Ireland, Peace Is an Open Border; ...

WP   9/8/94 12:00 AM

In N. Ireland, Peace Is an Open Border; Catholics, Troops
 Alternate Clearing, Rebuilding Barriers, but No One Fights
 By Fred Barbash
 Washington Post Foreign Service

    NEWTOWN BUTLER, Northern Ireland
    In the countryside 60 miles from Belfast, each day for the
 past week, Catholic nationalists and British security forces
 have been playing out a small ritual drama.
    During the daylight hours, the villagers haul out their
 tractors, wade into the mud and bury the massive concrete,
 British-built, anti-terrorist barriers blocking roads connecting
 Northern Ireland with the Irish Republic to the south. They
 bulldoze new roads around the old ones and then joyously
 drive back and forth across the border, celebrating and
 greeting their friends on the other side.
    The next morning, the British bring in their own earthmovers,
 build new barriers and fill the newly created roads with
 heaping mounds of impassable wet clay.
    While this has been going on periodically for a decade, it
 has become a daily occurrence since the Irish Republican
 Army declared a cease-fire almost a week ago. Like so much
 that has happened here since then, the "border roads
 campaign," as it is called, is a drama both symbolic and real,
 yet another test at a time of supreme testing among Catholic
 nationalists here, the Republic of Ireland and the government
 in London of Prime Minister John Major.
    It is real because the villagers see every good reason to be
 rid of the barriers: They are a massive inconvenience,
 disrupting cross-border trade and community life, and even
 reducing the rate of intermarriage between northerners and
 southerners.
    It is a test because those leading the campaign take the
 position that no matter what Major says about the cease-fire -
 whether he formally accepts it or does not, or ever speaks
 directly to Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams - the time will soon
 come when the British stop rebuilding the barriers. And when
 that day comes, they say, the north and south will be reunited.
 They will be one in fact, if not in law.
    On that day, they say, words will not matter, only deeds.
    "The border roads are going to be the real test," said Carain
 Leonard, 36, huffing and puffing as he struggled ankle-deep in
 mud to attach one end of a chain to a concrete block standing
 in the way of the Lackey Bridge between County Fermanagh in
 the north and County Monaghan in the south.
    Prime ministers can say what they will, he said, but "if and
 when they open the roads up, it will be an admission by the
 British that there is no security threat. It will mean they've
 accepted the cease-fire" as real and permanent whether they
 admit it or not. So far, the British have not played along; they
 have not let the new roads stand. They need the barriers, they
 say, as long as a threat remains.
    The border, for seven decades, has been the line of
 partition separating the Protestant-majority counties under
 British rule in the north from the Catholic Republic of Ireland. It
 meanders for about 220 miles, roughly in a semicircle, from the
 vicinity of Londonderry in the northwest to a point just an hour
 or so from Dublin in the southeast of Northern Ireland.
    While much of the violence and publicity has focused on the
 "Peace Line" - the wall separating the Catholic and Protestant
 sections of Belfast - people in the rural areas along the border
 say the real wall is the wall they confront - the road barriers.
 There are scores of them, all designed to divert traffic to
 carefully controlled border-crossing checkpoints.
    "We call it Britain's Berlin Wall," said County Monaghan
 council member Debbie Moore, who turned up one night this
 week at Lackey Bridge to cheer on the men tearing down the
 barriers.
   Unlike the Berlin Wall, however, the British continue to let
 traffic pass at approved checkpoints, and they do not shoot
 people crossing the reopened pathways.
    For the past week, Dono Hart, Michael McPhillips, Leonard
 and about a dozen friends have been methodically and
 joyously tearing down barriers in their area and burying them
 in the mud, all within view of British army observation towers.
 The men say the British have made no serious effort to stop
 the actions and, although empowered to do so, have not even
 confiscated the bulldozer - nicknamed Finn McCool, after a
 mythological Irish tribal leader - purchased by the villagers to
 wreck the blockades.
    That, in itself, is ranked as a "deed" of importance by these
 men, another sign that despite Major's continued questioning
 of whether the IRA has met Britain's demand of promising a
 permanent cease-fire, the government itself is acting as
 though it has.
    Hart, like many other farmers, tends two plots of
 cattle-grazing land, one in Northern Ireland and one in the
 Republic. The distance between them can be measured in
 yards. He can stand on a hill in the north, in County
 Fermanagh, and gaze across Lackey Bridge and see the land
 in the south.
    But it takes him an hour to make the trip because security
 forces have allowed only one nearby checkpoint to be used
 as a crossing.
    People in the two counties say the town of Clones in the
 south used to be the great social and parish center for the
 area until the roads were closed a decade ago following
 rocket attacks on police barracks.
    Michael McPhillips, a leader of the border roads campaign,
 said his brother's corner grocery store in the village of
 Newtown Butler, where he also worked, has had to close
 because it no longer is accessible to traffic from the south.
    British authorities say the barriers remain necessary as a
 control against the movement of terrorists and their supplies.
 In response, McPhillips notes that there have been a number
 of more recent rocket attacks near police barracks in spite of
 the closures, proving their futility. In his view, the blockages
 are a political statement, underscoring the separateness of the
 two Irelands.
    The border roads campaign is a political statement as well
 and has attracted considerable publicity here and in London.
 The concrete blocks are emblazoned with slogans of protest:
 "Road to Freedom" and "Ireland Is One, One Ireland." It takes
 more time to tear them down day after day than the time
 motorists may save by driving the makeshift route rather than
 the longer authorized one.
    The campaign is an arduous undertaking. The border towns
 buy their own bulldozers. The barriers are actually 10-foot-high
 tanks or truck-size mesh boxes, both filled with concrete. It
 takes a half-dozen or so to effectively block a road. The
 activists attach chains to them and, with friends pushing and
 hauling and grunting on the side, pull them away one by one
 and bury them. The men finish caked with mud, knowing they
 may be returning the next day and the day after that and the
 day after that.
    Optimistically, perhaps, they predict that the time is coming
 when the British will indeed leave the roads open. They think it
 will be soon, for they say they take the IRA cease-fire
 seriously.
    Driving along a road near a police barracks last night,
 McPhillips spotted an empty white van in his path with what
 appeared to be a flat tire. Eight days ago, he said, he would
 have backed away, for such a vehicle is precisely the sort
 used by the IRA for launching mortar attacks, attacks that do
 not distinguish between friend or foe.
    "A week ago I would have been very nervous about this," he
 said as he drove by. "Not now."
  Copyright 1994 The Washington Post

    Rumours are now circulating the Dublin office that a bomb has been
    detonated in or near Connolly Station. Cannot verify this at the moment
    but fatalities are rumoured also.  Hard to believe it is true and
    hopefully the rumour is just that.

    Just heard on RTE News that a small bomb went off on a Belfast - Dublin 
    train as it arrived into Connolly Station. 2 people were injured, not
    seriously. UVF claimed responsibility and warned that 7 other devices
    were planted in other Dublin locations.
    
    Des.

    2 people slightly injured.  UVF gave warnings etc.  incendary type
    devices used.  No fatalities.

    I'm not a catholic or protestant or a republican or loyalist
    sympathiser. However, what I've got to say is this.
    
    It appears to me, from recent actions (including yesterdays bomb)
    and attitudes by the loyalist paramilitaries, that the real problem
    in Ireland is not that republicans want to force unwilling protestants
    to become part of a united Ireland. But, that loyalists want to be
    separated entirely from the south.
    
    Why? Is it because they Identify with mainland Brits or indeed think 
    they are British. I don't think that most "mainland" Brits could care
    less about loyalist traditions or beliefs. They orange philosphy is 
    certainly not a part of British life. Apart from in the Glasgow 
    conurbation. Don't the loyalists realise that thier cause is probaly
    not supported, and most likely not understood by most English/Welsh/Scots
    people.
    
    Sometimes when I watch the news and see these uncompromising
    people (republicans and protestants) I think to myself (perhaps
    wrongly) that the British government should pull all troops and
    personel out of N.I., wash their hands of the situation, and let
    both sides kick the shit out of each other until there is nobody left.
    
    rgds
    mark

    Unfortunately, the violent types don't speak for the majority
    in NI, even if their voices seem louder.
    
    The loyalists are really trying to preserve what's left of their
    political power, and not their "Britishness".
                                                 
    The bulk of the violence is caused by the "lower" classes of
    society.  And the only real way to reduce this violence is to
    raise their standards of living and employment, and show them
    you can live peacefully and with dignity regardless of background.
    
    Hopefully the troops will stay there long enough to 
    guarantee a peaceful transition to an integrated police
    force.
    
    /g

    RTw  10/03 1837  Punishment beatings continue in Northern Ireland

    By Martin Cowley

    BELFAST, Oct 4 (Reuter) - IRA activists have carried out a spate of
    brutal assaults within their own community since halting an armed
    campaign to end British rule in Northern Ireland, security sources say.

    Catholic teenagers and young men are being kneecapped, beaten or even
    murdered by punishment squads, they say.

    Terrified victims are often left with multiple broken limbs and
    lifelong disabilities.

    In sprawling Catholic housing areas, many residents brand the
    predominantly Protestant police as an unacceptable British force. The
    Irish Republican Army draws support from those districts and there
    practises its own form of justice.

    Pro-British Protestant politicians, critical of the IRA and its
    political arm Sinn Fein, point to the attacks as evidence that the IRA
    is still in business despite its cessation of military action.

    But the British and Irish governments do not regard the violence as a
    breach of ceasefire. Seven such attacks have been recorded in Belfast
    and Londonderry, the province's second city, since the September 1
    agreement.

    When the "baseball team," as one policeman called them, struck in
    Londonderry, the 12-man squad entered their victim's house through
    front and rear doors.

    Forcing the 18-year-old to lie on the floor, they beat him with a
    hammer and batons. "He was taken to hospital with a broken leg and
    bruising to his body," the policeman said.

    "They were all wearing light blue jeans, black bomber jackets, black
    baseball caps and wore white scarves covering their faces."

    The victims usually stay mute about the source of the attacks and any
    possible reason. The IRA has not admitted to the most recent attacks
    but police say they have no doubt as to who is responsible or why.

    The attacks are not solely a Republican phenomenon. Protestant loyalist
    paramilitaries -- so-called because they are loyal to British rule --
    are heavily involved in carbon copy attacks in their communities,
    outpacing their Catholic rivals this year.

    Belfast-based Families Against Intimidation and Terror says that over
    many years Loyalist and Republican armed groups have also forced
    hundreds from their homes and out of the country.

    Police report 62 Loyalist shootings and 21 assaults this year compared
    to 55 Republican shootings and 13 assaults.

    REUTER

    Has the INLA announced a ceasefire yet or are they now the only 
    paramilitaries still `active'   ??
    
    F.

                          WAR or PEACE?
                        It's Major's Call

                an editorial from the Irish Voice
                         Jan.4-10, 1995

                      _____________________

     One year ago the people of Northern Ireland were playing a
waiting game as Sinn Fein pondered its response to the Downing
Street Declaration that had been signed by Prime Ministers Albert
Reynolds and John Major several weeks earlier. In a monumentous
year, Sinn Fein responded: the IRA ceasefire was called and the
loyalists reciprocated. Despite developments of such magnitude,
the people of the North are still waiting 12 months on, this time
for the British government's response.

     No one expected the embryonic peace process to be either
quick or painless, and it is doubtful even this time next year we
will have a permanent peace in Ireland. However, at the moment
the inaction of the British poses the frightening possibility
that we may be denied even a partial peace.

     Two parties to the war, the republicans and the loyalists,
have ceased military operations. The third--the British=--have
not. No significant numbers of troops have been withdrawn to
barracks; no prisoner releases are planned; harassment by the
police and army continues unabated. Even for the most optimistic
observer, it is a simple and worrying fact that only the
republicans and loyalists seem to have moved toward peace.

     The British strategy has been one of doublespeak, charades
and outright obstructionism. While talks have started between
British civil servants and both Sinn Fein and loyalists, London
has been at pains to point out that they are merely "exploratory"
and not serious talks on the future of Northern Ireland. That
begs the question: why?

     After a 25 year cycle of violence the people of the North
are entitled to expect more from the self-declared upholders of
law and order than they have received. If the British, as they
claim, have no vested interest in continuing the war and are
nothing more than benign "facilitators" as they also claim, then
why have they not responded to  the opportunity presented to
them?

     The reality is that the British cannot resolve the "Irish
problem" while maintaining the illusion they are brokering an
objective peace. There is no simple "Irish problem"--there is a
British problem in Ireland, and the actions of John Major since
the ceasefires encourage little optimism for the coming year.

     For example, the British insistence that the IRA disarm
prior to any all-party talks is, quite simply ridiculous. The
republicans will not surrender and then negotiate terms. It is
conceivable weapons will be conceded as the process grows,
assuming Major doesn't render it a still-birth.

     Many people, both here and in Ireland, have put their lives
and reputations on the line in the pursuit of peace. John Major
has done neither.The biggest threat to the peace process does not
come from renegade elements within the IRA,as the British media
have suggested, but from the seeming dereliction of
responsibility in London.

     It is  the hope of every rational person that 1995 will
bring us closer to  ending our gloomy chronicle. If, however, we
find ourselves in January 1996 just commemorating another
anniversary in the long war, then John Major must bear much of
the blame.

     His failure to grasp a peaceful future will be the IRA's
mandate to return to a violent past.

    
    Happy new year Holohan, hope you've read the news today! Your
    propaganda machine once again has proved to be out of date and
    inaccurate.
    
    Bill

    
    Bill,
         it's amazing how long it takes for news to hit the media!!
    
    As stated in a reply by myself earlier, the troops have been off the
    streets for some time, but marketing is always a bit behind the real
    world!! ( Hope you don't work in Marketing. 8*)... )
    
    I have been working in South Armagh today and there was no security
    forces to be seen. Let's hope it can remain that way.
    
    Happy New Year
    
    Gareth 

  It's not propoganda,  your "news" has only just happened, and it's
  about bloody time isn't it.


>but marketing is always a bit behind the real
>world!! ( Hope you don't work in Marketing. 8*)... )

  Now that's a Barther, er rather barfer 8*)

                    Mark

 According to the news 24-hour patrolling continues in south Armagh 
 and east Tyrone.  Troop levels of around 18,000 remain and military
 chiefs have indicated that there is no immediate plan to start withdrawals.

 While cutting back on troop patrols is a positive step, a lot more
 needs to be done. The RUC military patrols in nationalist areas are still
 occuring, the watch towers still stare down on the nationalist community,
 British military bases still sit in nationalist areas.

 As for troop demilitarization it is a step in the right direction, but
 it needs to go a lot further.

                         Mark

    
    Mark,
         come on now, stick to English or Gaelic, What the <BLEEP> is a 
    Barther or barfer.
    
    This news means that I can wear my jeans to the airport
    again!!!!!    8*)....
    
    I have a newspaper article at home which will make interesting reading
    for you Mark, I'll try and remember to bring it in on Monday.
    
    Happy New Year
    
    Gareth 

    re. .50
    
    Mark,
          the troop withdrawal is only from the streets of Belfast and only
    during daylight hours. This was clearly stated in the press release but
    I can assure you that the security  patrols have been reduced
    significantly in all areas.  
    
    Since the RUC are still the official police force I don't really see
    how they can stop  patrolling ANY area. Certain Loyalist politicians
    are also complaining of the RUC patrols in their areas and they certainly 
    patrol past my house but so what, if I have nothing to hide, they won't
    bother me.
    
    I believe time will change both the RUC and the attitude which some
    people have to them. Rome wasn't built in a day.( But don't tell
    Paisley ! 8*)   )
    
    Gareth 
    
     

    Oh, come on lads, it's the new year...
    
    Maybe like the Russians - the soldiers have no place to go home to
    back on the mainland? Or maybe they like Ireland so much they want to
    stay?
    
    >This news means that I can wear my jeans to the airport
    >again!!!!!    8*)....
    
    I don't know why, but it reminds me of the time we snuck an 18 pound
    baked ham through customs.
    
    :v}

    
    Happy New Year /george,
    
    The jeans reference is a based on a theory I told Mark about, whereby, if
    I flew to London wearing a suit then the likelyhood of being stopped by
    Special Branch was greatly reduced as compared to when wearing jeans.
    
    Therefore all subversives should wear 3 piece suits and short hair to
    avoid detection! ( HMMM... What does that make IBM people ? !! )
    
    I start a 6 month project based in Dublin on Monday ( or maybe it's an 
    north east Ireland Citizen integration course( :>(  ) so no doubt I'll come 
    back a better person. 
    
    I have to go now and brush up on Parnell, Davitt, etc. so it'll be a
    long weekend.
    
    Gareth   

    Re: .53
    
    GEORGE
    
    Was the Ham in your blue jeans ??
    
    8-}
    
    Bernard

    >>Maybe like the Russians - the soldiers have no place to go home to
    >>back on the mainland? Or maybe they like Ireland so much they want to
    >>stay?
    
    Or, or, they could devote more of their troops to their current
    contingent in UN peacekeeping operations.  As Ireland does, and many
    others with the noticeable exception of an English-speaking,
    continental North American country located immediately south of the 
    49th parallel. ;^)
    
    Pat

    >Or, or, they could devote more of their troops to their current
    >contingent in UN peacekeeping operations.  As Ireland does, and many
    >others with the noticeable exception of an English-speaking,
    >continental North American country located immediately south of the 
    >49th parallel. ;^)
    
    Yeah, those Belizians never pull their fair share... ;v)
    Hey Korff, we did the Latin American World Tour last year. Doesn't
    that count? With our foreign policy (foreign is the key word here)
    we'll probably be back next year to remove Aristide.
    
    And if we ever got sent to peacekeep in NI, I'd be the first one in
    line to sign up. :v) I have this lakefront farm in Fermanagh in mind...
    
    /G
                                  

    
     
    Part I: Hams - the gift that keeps on giving 
    --------------------------------------------
    
    Actually Bernard, the ham wasn't in my pants. My relatives came with us
    to Shannon to see us off. Everyone in the airport was saying their
    good-byes to one another, sending their last postcards, and giving
    each other hugs and kisses and small trinkets of affection. I got an
    18 pound baked ham.
    
    I stumbled down the corrider to my airplane, bags full of aran
    sweaters, a Cork examiner, and an 18 pound baked ham.
    
    The ham was recently cooked, still slightly warm, had that little ham
    bone in the middle that you shouldn't give to cats. It was covered in
    plastic wrap and placed in a shopping bag and brought on board as
    carry-on luggage. Our whole back section of the Aer Lingus 747 smelled
    like a ham for the 6 hour flight. The passengers all thought we were
    getting ham for dinner. Instead we got chicken divan.
    
    As I came back through Boston, the customs officer asked me what was in
    the shopping bag. I said a "ham, a baked ham". (As if having it baked
    would make it ok.)
    
    Coming tomorrow:
    Part II - Bringing your ham through Customs

    
    George!
    
    Only you....most settle for smuggling pocheen (sp?)
    
    :^)
    
    /jen
    

    Seoirse
    
    I think your writing is getting excellent.  Can't we read Part II now,
    or do we have to wait till next week.
    
    BTW, I think I can guess the conclusion.  Ask me for my story of "The
    Potato Smuggler from Idaho."
    
    Bernard

    re.51
    
    How dare you ask Holohan a question Gareth, you'll get him all
    confused!
    
    I think it was his stab at wit in .49 but our poor mixed up all
    American boy wouldn't know wit if it smacked him in the gub!
    
    Bill

    Bill,
         you obviously haven't talked to him directly, 'cause he has got a
    sense of humour - Don't knock it 'til you've tried it  Bill 8:) .
    
    
    Mark,
         how did the Creationalism go ?
    
    With a Big Bang I presume! 8:)
    
    Gareth

  Gareth,
     That's tonight, at the school board meeting.  I'm a big believer
  in separation of church and state.  It's being discussed in the
  New Hampshire notes conference.
                         Mark

    
    Thanks Mark, 
               I'll take a look in there
    
    Gareth

    Re: .58
    
    Ok Seoirse
    
    Ta me tuirseach of waiting for the next instalment of the Ham story.  A
    week has gone by.
    
    What did the customs person say.....Did you have to eat the ham to get
    back to the US.....how long did you stay in Jail......was the food
    good ?
    
    Inquiring minds want to know.
    
    Bernard (now a Yank since attending my citizenship ceremony).

    DUBLIN, Feb 26 (Reuter) - Sinn Fein, the political wing of
the IRA, ended a weekend conference on Sunday with a blunt
rejection of British demands that the IRA should give up its
weapons as the price of entering peace talks.
    The conference gave an upbeat assessment of last week's
proposals from London and Dublin. But senior Sinn Fein official
Martin McGuinness said British demands for the decommissioning
of Irish Republican Army arsenals as a condition for joining
all-party talks were untenable.
    ``The decommissioning argument put up by the British must be
seen for what it is, an excuse to delay all-party talks,'' he
told 500 delegates attending the annual conference.
    McGuinness dismissed a demand on Sunday by British Northern
Ireland Secretary Sir Patrick Mayhew for the IRA to disarm as a
condition for Sinn Fein being admitted to talks as ``without
logic or validity. It has to change.''''
    His tone contrasted sharply with a broad welcome by
delegates for new Anglo-Irish ``framework'' proposals launched
last Wednesday in the wake of the September 1 ceasefire by IRA
guerrillas fighting to end British rule of Northern Ireland.
    The conference is being held for the first time under an IRA
ceasefire and with Sinn Fein, which has 10 percent support among
Northern Irish voters, recognised as a legitimate political
party by both the Dublin and Washington governments, but not by
Britain.
    McGuinness stood firm on Sinn Fein demands that Britain
should withdraw its troops and disarm its police as well as the
IRA's pro-British Loyalist foes before the IRA could do the
same.
    McGuinness said that Sinn Fein had no weapons and had been
invited to exploratory talks with British officials on the basis
of its electoral mandate and could not speak for the IRA.
    Sinn Fein and the IRA want Britain to upgrade exploratory
talks from civil servant level to ministerial level and to
convene new all-party discussions soon.
    But Mayhew said on British television on Sunday:
    ``There has to be substantial progress made on the issue of
decommissioning arms by the IRA in this exploratory phase of the
talks before, so far as the Government is concerned, they can be
brought into substantive negotiations.''
    Adams told the same television programme: ``The British
government can't hope to make progress in a peace process which
is dependent on dialogue if they shut our party or any other
party with an electoral mandate out of the process.''
    Mayhew said the fact that IRA spokesmen had refused to
surrender arms or take them out of service cast doubt upon the
permanence of the guerrillas' truce.
    ``If somebody comes to the negotiating table with other
constitutional parties but is known to have Semtex,
ground-to-air missiles, heavy machine guns, mortars and so on,
the implication is absolutely inescapable that they are prepared
to resort to former violence if they don't get what they want
round the table,'' Mayhew said.
    Adams said that IRA guns were only one part of the equation
and that his party sought to remove all weapons, including those
of the British army and RUC police.
    ``Patrick Mayhew is talking to me down the barrel of a
British gun, the largest army in the field is the British Army
of occupation, the largest state force is the state police, the
Royal Ulster Constabulary,'' he said.

 Answering press questions related to the British government demand for
decommissioning of IRA arms, President Mandela was asked what advice he would
give to the IRA in light of the ANC's experience. He said:
''When we made a statement suspending armed struggle, we totally rejected the
demand from the South African government that we should hand in our arms, and we
said that it is a decision that we ourselves will take at an appropriate time.''


 Thank goodness Mr. Mandela didn't have to deal with a "British government"
 when trying to find peace in South Africa.  If he had, apartheid would still
 be in place.

                      Mark

I don't think it's that ridiculous to ask for a unilateral ceasefire from
the IRA; I think that when armed violence seems to have subsided with no
risk of it starting up again, the British army will quickly bugger off and
everyone will be happy (well, relatively speaking).  Just MHO of course.

Chris.

  The IRA already announced a unilateral cessation of violence.  Now the
  British would like a unilateral surrender.  Will the British army be
  murdering any more civilians as they "slowly" bugger themselves off?

                        Mark

Well, skirting around the subject of `who's the biggest murderer', `who's
morally justified' type arguments, perhaps the army could be replaced by
a UN peacekeeping force?  I think that some sort of deterrent is needed
in these early stages of peace, so perhaps a presence which is generally
viewed as neutral and unbiased by all sides would be preferable, and could
gradually be phased out altogether.

I think that in the long term the real answer to lasting peace would be
to gently integrate the various groups of people so that they live together,
so that, although they can argue away their political points of view, they
view each other as real people and not some sort of enemy.  I think that
examples such as the recent clash between the Orange March and the RUC are
provocative and generally counterproductive, whoever's to blame.

I guess this post contains little in the way of new or original ideas, but
it's my opinion, for what it's worth.

Chris.

    Re .70 Do you think the Brit government would allow an Independant
    force such as the UN into NI?

>    Re .70 Do you think the Brit government would allow an Independant
>    force such as the UN into NI?

I don't see why not.

Chris.

Re.67

I think the biggest lesson that can be taken from SA is that the past needs
to be put firmly in the past and to concentrate on the future.  Unfortunately,
situations such as the Orange March in Portadown and the comments such as .69
from the Republican side show this stage hasn't been reached.

Until all sides concentrate on the future I 'm not optomistic (sp) for
the long term future of the peace process.  Hopefully somebody can rise to
the challenge and equal the stature and genius of Nelson Mandela.

Re.72

I don't think this particular government will be able to allow foreign troops
onto what *IT* considers British soil.  Tory backbenchers have caused enough
trouble for Mr Major to mean this is not an option for him.  Some sort of
EC force may be possible for a Labour govt, but the remit of some a force
may be difficult (See Bosnia).

US troops would probably be deemed to be on the Republican side so are
not an option.

    What benefit would a UN, or EU, force bring at this stage of the peace
    process? As an earlier note said the only way forward would appear, to
    me, to look to the future and not to the past and accept the differing
    views which exist and look for ways to accomodate them.
    
    Putting in the UN, or EU, as a peacekeeping force would surely
    reinforce the line drawn between the various parties. The current
    situation in Portadown is being handled by the police. The army are not
    involved. Isn't this a small step in the right direction?
    
    Andrew

I think that it is a step in the right direction, but I think an armed
presence is still vital, maybe not to do patrols but to be at hand if
there are any flare ups.  Obviously the British Army are not an acceptable
presence to many people, so an independant and unbiased organisation would,
IMO, be a good idea in the interim.

Chris.

  The U.N. weren't needed in South Africa.  In any event, all one has to
  do is take a look at the U.N. in Bosnia to see how useless an organization
  it has become.

  There is a man of Nelson Mandela's stature in Ireland.  His name 
  is Gerry Adams.

  What's needed  is a serious withdrawal of British forces.

                        Mark

>  There is a man of Nelson Mandela's stature in Ireland.  His name 
>  is Gerry Adams.

that may be so, although I doubt if several groups of people would
be willing to go along with his demands, which would not be conducive
to lasting peace.

>  What's needed  is a serious withdrawal of British forces.

agreed, but I still maintain that a neutral peace keeping force of
some description should be at hand for a while in the event of any
factions taking it upon themselves to organise a spot of violence.

Chris.

>  There is a man of Nelson Mandela's stature in Ireland.  His name 
>  is Gerry Adams.


Mark,

You may be right but he think he has a long way to go yet.  He has however
been extremely brave and skilled in leading the IRA away from violence.

If he achieves only a third of Mandela he will have achieved a lot.

Now if there was someone from the other side with the same standing the 
peace process might get somewhere.



                                IRA STATEMENT

A statement was issued September 29, 1995 by the Irish Republican Army.

The full text of the IRA statement reads:

``Thirteen months ago the IRA announced a complete cessation of military
operations. We did so to enhance the opportunity which existed, at that
time, given political will on all sides, for the realisation of a just and
lasting settlement.

``We wish Sinn Fein every success in its current efforts to break the
impasse created by the British Government's new and unreasonable demand for
a handing over of IRA weapons.

``The entire decommissioning issue is a deliberate distraction and stalling
tactic by a British Government acting in bad faith.

``John Major's government know enough of Anglo-Irish history to understand
that there is no possibility of disarmament except as part of a negotiated
settlement. Given that history and the reality that they and their loyalist
death squad allies hold the largest stock of licenced and unlicenced
weapons, the demand for an IRA handover of weapons is ludicrous.

``There is no possibility of the IRA meeting these demands.''

P.O'Neill,
Irish Republican Publicity Bureau,
Dublin



Roughly translates to ``we may start another outbreak of violence,
but if we do, then blame the British for <insert contrived excuse
here> as we're beyond reproach.''

Chris.

    
    Tho this is not a topic I would normally contribute to, I have to say
    that if WAR does breakout again, then John Major and his government
    will be primarily responsible.
    
    The expectation of disarnament is definitely a ploy and is not helping
    the situation.
    
    I also agree that history and experience in these issues can not be
    ignored.

  Chris,
    For a second, try and stop being a S*it stirrer, and seriously consider
  what's happening.
    Come on, it's been 13 months since the cease-fire and the British still
  refuse to hold high level talks with Sinn Fein.  Sinn Fein have a right to
  be heard, by virtue of their democratic mandate.  Even you must see that
  the British government have no intention of letting peace succeed.  
    Quite frankly, I can't fathom the amount of restraint being employed by
  the Irish Republican Army.  Why continue to push this restraint till it
  breaks?  I don't want to see British people die, any more than Irish people
  die.  What's so awful in talking with the democratically elected 
  representatives in Sinn Fein?  Nothing, and you and I both know it.
                         Mark

    I would have to echo Gerry's views.
    
    We shouldn't live in the past - even difficult as it may be.
    We cannot predict the future - none of us.
    We have to live in the ***present***.
    
    The present state is peace - let's move forward with it!
    It may be another 20 years before a chance like this comes 
    around. 
    
    I liken it to walking in the dark with a flashlight. You might
    stub your toe, but you'll eventually get to where you're
    going. Let's turn on that flashlight lads.
    
    /g

Okay, in a moment of coherence, IMO the British Army should pull out of
NI, the IRA should disarm, then everyone can get down to some serious
talking without anybody thinking that they've been forced into talks by
the threat of violence.  If only they'd get their heads together for
some `pre talks talking' to arrange this, then I personally think we'd
see some progress.  I don't know who's to blame for not doing this sort
of thing, and frankly I don't care (pointing the finger does little except
cause further animosity), I wish all sides would just get off their collective
backsides and do something.  Perhaps one solution would be for Major's
rabble to arrange a unilateral withdrawal, guaranteeing permanence only
if there's an imminent disarmament of the various other factions.

Someone has to make a first step, and if the IRA won't then HMG Armed
Forces should.  We've had about 14(?) months of peace now, surely everyone
can't have *such* a deep distrust for each other...?  Bloody politicians.

Chris.

    
    
    Assuming that would be done and everyone would "believe" in it, it
    certainly sounds to be a reasonable solution to this current blockage.
    
    For millions of reasons, this effort can not be let go and should not
    take a step backward ...... the cost is just too much.

>    For millions of reasons, this effort can not be let go and should not
>    take a step backward ...... the cost is just too much.

agreed... I sometimes think that Major and Adams are engaged in a game
of `oneupmanship' (is that a real word?), I wish someone would just bang
their heads together as they don't seem to be living in the real world,
what with all this squabbling and toing and froing of who's to blame
for the lack of progress.  Someone has to take the bull by the horns,
I don't care who, but after all this time it'd be a criminal waste of
such a great opportunity.

Chris.

    Re .85
    
    Chris,
    
    There is one major flaw in your suggestions in .85, i.e. if the Army
    withdraw and the IRA disarm then that leaves the loyalist
    paramilitaries armed to the teeth. I agree with a form of disarmament
    but it should be applied to ALL terrorists.
    
    Tom.
    

re .88,

I hadn't forgotten about them and their like, I just hoped that they'd
follow suit (guess I should've added that into my note!)

Chris.