Conference tallis::celt

    As if it wasn't obvious to anyone with half a brain, your favourite
    terrorist organisation and mine, the IRA, have "stepped up mainland
    crime" as well.  This time, the brave freedom fighters from the
    northern counties struck another blow for freedom and democracy (gosh I
    can almost smell mom's apple pie and hey, is that the Star Spangled
    Banner I hear ?) by placing bombs in the saddle bags of mountain bikes
    and leaving them at the strategic military heart of the demonic UK war
    machine - Brighton Pier and Bognor Regis Beach.  
    
    One of the bombs detonated killing hundreds of soldiers and damaging
    several armoured personel carriers.  Woops, my mistake.  The military
    damage was limited to two gift shops, an off-license and a ladies
    hairdressing salon.  Ho Ho - that'll teach'em a thing or two.  No more
    dawn raids in Nationalist areas from Mrs Miggins now that her perm is
    ruined.  And old Reg can't keep up his campaign of terror now that his
    only source of novelty pens and "Kiss me Quick" hats has been "Taken
    out".
    
    One-Nil to the goodies, eh Mr Holohan ??? 
    
    
    	Mark

  re. .1
  Not to worry, I'm sure the British government will
  pick up a few innocent Irish nationals off the streets,
  hold them for 7 days under the PTA, beat a confession
  out of them, and lock em up for 15 years.

  That should keep the collective British psyche
  happy for a few weeks, until the folks they've been
  sticking it to for the past 25 years decide it's
  time to strike back again.

                Mark

    re -1
    
    ..... it's time to strike back again
    
    More bloodshed and hurt and death and sorrow and hatred and the desire
    for revenge which leads to more bloodshed and hurt and sorrow .........
    ...... and on and on and on .
    
    We've had 25 years of it and by the look of things we'll have 125 more
    years . And all the while the loudmouths sit in the wings providing the
    rhetoric that keeps the pot on the boil .
    
    There is no total solution . There will be no end until both
    communities learn tolerance and compromise . The last 25 years have
    shown that . They have been a miserable chapter in Irelands History.
    And the bad news is there is more to come ..........
    
    What are you doing to help bring peace to NI. What tolerance and
    compromise have you in mind to help move forward .
    
    Let me guess , everyone else has to be tolerant of you and everyone
    else has to provide compromises to you , them first then maybe you.
    
    You're laughable !
    
    You are part of the problem. And when you realise that and are willing
    to change that then you can become part of the solution . In the
    meantime why not do  us all a favour and give it a rest.
    
    F. 

"What are you doing to help bring peace to NI."

 I distribute human rights organization literature
 on the situation in north east Ireland.  I write
 my elected officials asking that they support the
 McBride fair employment principles.  I write my
 elected offcials asking that they not bow down to
 British wishes by censoring nationalist opinion
 in the United States.  I write British officials
 asking that they end their collusion with loyalist
 death squads, end their censorship of political
 opposition, and end their practices of juryless trials,
 falsified evidence, and forced confessions.

 I contribute to charitable organizations that attempt
 to alleviate the suffering caused by these British
 crimes in north east Ireland.

 Now FSPAIN, what do you do to help bring peace to
 north east Ireland?

                  Mark

re .4,

yeah, you write plenty of stuff all right, but it seems to me that it
is intended to provoke more ill feeling rather than benefit anyone.  
Still, I suppose it's easy to passe about the situation when you're
several thousand miles away from any danger.

Chris.

 re. .5

  I'll pass on your British opinion to Amnesty
  International.
  I'll tell them that you feel their reporting on
  human rights violations in north east Ireland is
  provoking ill feeling, and would they please just
  ignore the suffering, so that British people won't
  feel too bad.

                      Mark

re .6,

As you are probably well aware, that is not the point I was making; I
still stand by my claim that your interest in the Northern Ireland
situation is nothing more than to pursue your deep rooted hatred of
the British people, and your one sided, and often inaccurate, postings
to this newsgroup appear to be selected to stir up more ill-feeling.
You start bleating on about `collusion at the highest level' and `state
sponsored terrorism' and `british death squads' if someone so much as
sniffs in the direction of anyone in or in support of the IRA, yet when
something happens which is directed toward the British people, eg bombs
being placed in resorts at the height of the holiday season, they're met
from silence from the great self proclaimed human rights campaigner.  Why
is that, Mark?  Why do you never have a bad word to say about the IRA?
Why do you never have a word of support to say to their victims, be they
Irish or British, when you're prepared to go to such length to post your
extremely selective articles vetted from AI?

And please, before you resort to your standard tactic of turning my
questions around without bothering to answer them yourself, that it's
a matter of consistency; I may not speak out in defence of others, or
against some of the actions of the British forces, but it does not mean
that the feeling isn't there.  I just get pissed off with being on the
receiving end of an endless stream of petty, vindictive, puerile anti-
British propaganda from someone who, despite what superiority complex
they may have, is certainly no better than we are.  If the best you
can do is reply with another sarcastic, patronising comment, you can shove
it.

Chris.

 People are being murdered every day in north east
 Ireland, and yet you only speak up when your
 favorite tourist attraction has been economically
 damaged by the Irish Republican Army.

 "I may not speak out in defence of others, or
against some of the actions of the British forces, but it does not mean
that the feeling isn't there. "

 Ah, now that's a comfort.  You wouldn't open your
 mouth to condemn the actions of the British forces,
 but the "feeling" is there. Yet you will open your
 mouth to label news articles and human rights reports,
 as anti-British propoganda.

 Well, I'm off to enter more anti-British propoganda (ie Irish
 Times articles, Guardian articles, Amnesty International articles
 etc. etc)
                        Mark   






 

I still can't reconcile the disparate attitudes of posting "informative"
human rights articles in here under the pretence of caring about what
happens in NI, with your tendancy to slag off anyone who questions the
motives behind them.

Given your extremely condescending remarks towards me, it's obvious that
you couldn't give a toss about what anyone else thinks, so what's the
point in wasting all the time and effort posting these articles in here
if you have such a low regard for the opinions of others?

You're very casual about mouthing off about how worthless my feelings
about NI are at the same time as extolling your own efforts, which, as
far as I can see amount to nothing more than continuously goading and
bad-mouthing the British people.  Do your patronising remarks help the
situation in NI?  I think not.  Do you give a toss?  Only as long as
you're managing to irritate anyone British, apparently.

So go ahead, continue posting your articles in here, but please, don't
partonise us with the claim that you're doing it with anyone's best
interests at heart.  From your deeply negative attitude towards anyone
who should question your motives I think that your interest in the
wellbeing of others is hardly paramount, especially when you get a
chance to vent your already well known Anglophobia, which is clearly
of much greater importance to you.  Well, I'm off now, so that gives
you plenty of time to think of some stupid comment to further bolster
your inflated ego.
Have a nice day.

Chris.

    re:.4
    
    I hope you haven't forgotten to write to the IRA, asking that they stop
    targetting innocent civilians, both Irish and British. I hope you
    haven't forgotten to write to Sein Fein, asking them to actively support 
    an end to the violence. I hope you've written to these charitable
    organisations that you claim to support, making it clear that you don't
    support violence and want your money used ONLY for charitable purposes.
    I hope you also contribute to some of the charitable organisations that
    attempt to bring the two communities together.
    
    I mean, I'd hate to think you weren't impartial or anything.
                                                  

    re . various: Note how Mr Holohan has kept extremely quiet regarding
    the Irish News article posted by Chris Eastland in 1401.21. Can it
    possibly be the case that his trawls of the media could be the tiniest
    bit biased. :-)
    
                            Dennis

   re. .10
    Will you be writing to the British Army asking
    them to stop colluding with the loyalist death
    squads?




                                 August  15, 1994
                     UDA gang murders Belfast father of twins
               Catholic (20) abducted and tied up before being shot
                                By GERRY MORIARTY


    A 20 year old Belfast Catholic father of infant twin girls has become the
fifth person to die violently in the North in just over a week.  Mr Sean
Monaghan, from Albert Street, off the Grosvenor Road, was abducted by UDA
gunmen early yesterday morning as he was walking home from visiting an uncle
in the nearby Divis Tower.

   A senior RUC officer said that Mr Monaghan, the third man to be killed
by the UDA in five days, "obviously went through hell before he died".

   The victim of the latest Belfast shooting, Mr Sean Monaghan, lived with his
girlfriend and 15 month old twin daughters. His body was found at 3 a.m.
yesterday on waste ground at Ottawa Street in the loyalist Woodvale area of
Belfast.

  Mr Monaghan, who was gagged and bound by the hands and feet, was shot several
times in the head "and obviously went through hell before he died" said Det
Chief Supt Derek Martindale. The UDA, using its UFF cover name, admitted the
killing, claiming that Mr Monaghan had been "picked up scouting loyalist areas".

   This claim was dismissed by Supt Martindale, who said: "This was really a
horrendous sectarian murder of a quiet, timid, unassuming 20 year old who only
lived for his girlfriend, Noelle, and their 15 month old twin girls."

  A Belfast SDLP councillor, Mr Alex Attwood, said that it was clear that there
was now a highly organised, systematic targeting of the Belfast Catholic
community by loyalist paramilitaries.

    Re .12
    
    What is it in respect of this particular incident that leads you to suspect 
    collusion with the loyalist death squads?
    

  re..13

   Amnesty International has determined that collusion
   between the British forces and loyalist death squads
   occurs at the highest level.  I therefore suspect
   that any murder by loyalist death squads might have
   the complicity of the British forces.  That complicity
   might entail anything from an out right order for this
   innocent man's death, to providing names and addresses
   of people the British would like to see murdered, to
   the providing of arms and intelligence information 
   to the loyalist death squads who later carry out
   these types of murder, or to the disproportionate
   levels of attention given members of the Nationalist
   community, versus members of the Loyalist community
   (a good example is the ease with which loyalist murder
    squads are able to commit their crimes, and then 
    escape).

                       Mark

    
    You keep repeating this but you have never proven it. And you of
    course always refuse to answer questions about it. Where does AI say
    at the 'highest level'? I've only asked you half a dozen times.
    Check back to where you first made this unsubstantiated claim back
    in 1328.4 and see if you can find where collusion between the _British
    Government_ and the paramils has been even asserted by AI? I guess
    you are up to the usual methods of propaganda, although it's hard to
    see who you might be in danger of convincing?     
    

    They made an arrest earlier this week in connection with this murder.
    
    I take it that the answer to my .10 is No, you haven't contacted any of
    these organisations. Why am I not surprised? 

    Incidently, two men were jailed in Britain this week for attempting to
    supply arms to the loyalists. That doesn't sound like collusion to me.

    Don't be so silly Julie.  That's only a cover up.  These arrests are
    for show only.  The perpetrators of this crime are probably living
    under false identities in a luxury hotel in the Bahamas.  All at the
    expense of HMG.
    
    I know 'cos I read Republican News.  I do have trouble with some of the
    big words though.
    
    Mark

    re .14
    
    More likely the murder was the UDA's blind reaction to the continuing
    IRA campaign of violence, and the unfortunate victim was in the wrong
    place at the wrong time.
     

 re. .15

  Look, pudding head Eastland.  I've given you the names of
  the Amnesty Internationals articles that detail examples
  of the collusion.  I've entered a few of the many cases where
  collusion is suspected. You've heard of Brian Nelson?  As of
  Feb. this year, AI still believed that collusion exists at
  high levels.

  If I repeat the above paragraph a dozen times, will it sink
  into your head?


 re. .16, .17
  Tell you what, follow these cases, and tell us exactly where
  the arrests take us.  I bet it will open your eyes.  I'd 
  like to see who really does jail time, and for how long.
  Since you've brought up these arrests, will you follow them,
  and tell us where it leads?  If not, don't worry, I'll post
  next years Amnesty International report on human rights 
  violations in the U.K., and we can all read about how these
  cases never materialized into anything.

 re. .18
  I suggest you not limit your reading material to only Republican
  News, but also add the reports of Amnesty International,
  Helsinki Watch, Northern Ireland Human Rights Watch.  You'll
  find that they back up much of what is claimed in Republican
  News.

                             Mark

  

>                            If not, don't worry, I'll post
>  next years Amnesty International report on human rights 
>  violations in the U.K.
  
  Are you in the market for suggestions as to where you should post it?

  

    
    Yeah, I can't seem to find that phrase 'collusion at the highest levels
    of the British govt' or words to that effect anywhere, Mark. Be a dear
    and just post me an extract in the next spot that clears it up will
    you? 
    

    re: .20
    
    Re-read .17 - THEY HAVE BEEN JAILED. For a nice long time, too.   
                                 

    
    What no reply from dear Mark? Neither in the June 1991 report or the
    January 1994 report (note 1328) does Amnesty International mention that 
    this collusion happens at the 'highest government circles' as Holohan 
    has assured us. They seem to allege that 'elements within the security 
    forces' are doing the colluding with the loyalist terrorists. 
    Holohan himself kept to that line throughout most of last winter when
    the ammo arrived in the mail, but since then has been making things up
    by the looks of it, making progressively more exaggerated and untrue
    claims until he now holds that AI themselves say that the collusion is
    at the highest levels of the British govt.
    
    And yet he can't find any place where they say that. There are words
    for deliberate distortion. Maybe I missed it. Again, show us where AI
    make the claim,, or stop repeating what you must know are untruths.
    

talking of lack of response to certain questions, I think that

> favorite tourist attraction has been economically
> damaged by the Irish Republican Army.

seems to sum up his attitude towards the Warrington bombing quite well,
considering it could have quite easily been a repetition of it.

Chris.

    Oh he is right, These bombings are purley economic. 
    
    
    
    
    
    Just think of how much it costs the government in hospital fees to
    treat a young child who has been torn to shreds by a bomb.
    
    
    It literally costs "an arm and a leg".
    
    
    
    It is being reported that the IRA are considering a cease fire...
    
    Simon

 re. .24

  Well Eastland, I guess that all depends on what one
 deams as a "high government level".  Is the RUC chief
 constable a high government official? Is the British
 Army commander in north east Ireland, a high government
 official?  Is the head of MI5 in north east Ireland,
 a high government official?  Is John Major a high
 government official?  If you don't consider any of
 these people high government officials, what do you
 consider a "high government official"?  

 Do you know who ordered the Stevens Inquiry (1989-1990)?
 It was the Chief Constable of the RUC.  Do you know
 the results of the inquiry?  32 people were arrested.
 Guess how many were charged with murder?  One.  His 
 name was Brian Nelson (British army agent). Do you
 know how much time he served?  Do you know that the
 Stevens Inquiry was hobbled by the British army's
 refusal to cooperate? Why did the commander of the
 British forces in north east Ireland and
 the RUC chief constable make every attempt to impede
 the Stevens Inquiry?  Is the RUC chief constable, 
 the people from MI5 who ran Brian Nelson, and the
 head of the British Army in north east Ireland, high
 government officials?

 Why does British intelligence have a breakdown in 
 their own intelligence operations, when major shipments
 of weapons are made to the loyalist death squads?
 Are the people who control British Intelligence, high
 government officials?

 Who controls the setup and removal of road-blocks in
 north east Ireland?  Why do road-blocks happen to be
 removed so that gunmen can have unfettered access to
 assasinate nationalist supporters? (Patrick Finucane,
 Danny Cassidy, Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams, 
 Sinn Fein councillor Alex Maskey).  Why are Sinn Fein
 councillor's who have repeatedly been attacked, denied
 permits for firearms?
 Why does the British government not set up an 
 independent inquiry into collusion to put this matter
 to rest?

 Why did Sir Hugh Annesley, the RUC chief constable,
 suggest that John Steven's scope would be severely
 limited?  Is Hugh Annesley a high government official?

 Why doesn't John Major order an inquiry into some of
 the allegations raised by Amnesty International,
 Helsinki Watch Report, and the Lawyers Committe for
 Human Rights?  Do you consider John Major a high
 government official?

Questions raised by Amnesty International:

 1. Did Brian Nelson's military handlers provide the
    UDA with photographs of suspects?

 2. Did the military handlers provide other crucial
    details about suspected targests, for example car
    registration numbers, addresses, movements, and
    layouts of houses?

 3. Did some handlers encourage a bombing campaign in
    the Republic of Ireland and an intimidation 
    campaign of witnesses in an extortion trial, as
    alleged?

 4. In how many instances of killings were warnings
    passed on by Brian Nelson? and in how many of these
    did military intelligence pass the information on
    to the RUC?

 5. As an example of the above, were warnings passed on 
    about the targeting of Patrick Finucane, and if
    not, why?

 6. Did other intelligence services have advance
    warning that Patrick Finucane was being targeted?

 Finally, in view of the statement made by the British
 Army's General Officer Commanding, Lt-Gen Sir John
 Wilsey, in January 1993 that he was not ashamed of
 the army's role in the Nelson affair, the inquiry
 should reveal precisely what the army's role regarding
 Nelson and the UDA consisted of.

 Now, I'll be the first to admit that in your mind,
 John Major, the RUC chief constable, and the British
 Army commander in north east Ireland are what,
 low government officials?  middle government officals?

 I'd call all of them, high officals.  But then again,
 I have a brain.

                          Mark

>Questions raised by Amnesty International:
>
> 1. Did Brian Nelson's military handlers provide the
>    UDA with photographs of suspects?
>
> 2. Did the military handlers provide other crucial
>    details about suspected targests, for example car
>    registration numbers, addresses, movements, and
>    layouts of houses?
> 3. Did some handlers encourage a bombing campaign in
>    the Republic of Ireland and an intimidation 
>    campaign of witnesses in an extortion trial, as
>    alleged?
>
> 4. In how many instances of killings were warnings
>    passed on by Brian Nelson? and in how many of these
>    did military intelligence pass the information on
>    to the RUC?
>
> 5. As an example of the above, were warnings passed on 
>    about the targeting of Patrick Finucane, and if
>    not, why?
>
> 6. Did other intelligence services have advance
>    warning that Patrick Finucane was being targeted?>

    Are you having trouble reading. I didn't ask what questions AI
    had. I asked you to tell this conference where AI maintained
    as you have said, that collusion existed at highest levels of
    the British govt. You have not done this. It's clear that you
    cannot producd the evidence, just a rehashed smokescreen, leaing
    it quite clear to everyone that you made it up.
    
> I'd call all of them, high officals.  But then again,
> I have a brain.
    
    We're not holding our breath for evidence of this one either..
    And you didn't say "high officials that Holohan has read about".
    You said Amnesty Interational reported.
    

    Look, pudding head Eastland.  I've given you the names of
    
    tut tut Holohan, name calling now are we? You'll suffer the same fate
    as me if you carry on, ie; censorship American style!! No writes to the
    conference for months. Of course censorship doesn't exist in America
    does it Mark?
    I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that I'm back. BTW your mate Bruce
    has left but he keeps asking how unwell you are :>)
    
    Last Sunday there was a documentary on UK T.V. which interviewed some
    ex inmates of the Maze, both Nationalist and Repulican. The guy who
    shot and wounded Gerry Adams was interviewed. He spent 17 years in the
    Maze for it. Collusion?? why wasn't he released early? Why was he
    charged at all? 
    Just a thought for everyone........... except you that it is.

re. .28
 
  I get it, so you don't consider the commander of
  the British Army in north east Ireland, or the 
  Chief Constable of the RUC to be "high level".

re. .29

  Sure, Amnesty International, Helsinki Watch, and
  various other human rights activists paint one picture
  about British collusion, and the British (like
  yourself) paint another.  Gee, who to believe?

>Gee, who to believe?

well not you, that's for sure, you've placed yourself firmly at the
bottom of the list of credible sources of information.  And don't
give us all that Helsinki Watch and AI stuff, as Mr Eastland has
pointed out, you would appear to have a tendancy to embelish the
carefully screened articles that you select.

And as to your comment about the British opinions, why would anyone
want to support the views of our wonderful Government?  Now *there*'s
a warped idea.  And before you make another sweeping statement about
how worthless a British opinion is, idly wiping out the thoughts and
actions of 65 million people (that's over a quarter of the population
of the States if my memory serves me correctly), before you get up on
your high horse going on and on about terrorist rights, oops slip of
the tongue I mean human rights, weren't you born here too?
So what makes you so different to the other 65 million "Ignorant Brits"?

Chris.

 re. .31

>"before you get up on
>your high horse going on and on about terrorist rights, oops slip of
>the tongue I mean human rights, weren't you born here too?
>So what makes you so different to the other 65 million "Ignorant Brits"?"

 It would be wrong to categorize all British opinion.
 I've seen plenty of folks with British accents who
 have intelligent opinions on human rights violations,
 and the withdrawal of the British forces from north
 east Ireland. 

 In truth though, I wouldn't lump you and Eastland in
 with intelligent opinion.  You don't really belong
 there.


                   Mark

    
    Gosh, aren't you being a trifle hypocritical Mark? Insults flying
    when no one is allowed to insult you back without fear of that dreaded
    mail header showing up in one's newmail box demanding deletion or else.
    Must be so hard being a Nashua freedom fighter. Lucky no one's bombing
    the downtown area in the name of freedom. Let's you do your important
    work for peace in the peace, as it were. 
        
    Any way, never mind. We know by now that you can't provide evidence for
    this AI claim, just as you can't for many others.  AI never said
    collusion  existed at the highest levels, and you know it, and whenever
    you care to spread that little untruth again, I'll be sure to point to
    this string.
    
    

> It would be wrong to categorize all British opinion.
> I've seen plenty of folks with British accents who
> have intelligent opinions on human rights violations,
> and the withdrawal of the British forces from north
> east Ireland. 

  Are we to assume that the only opinions which you consider intelligent are 
those which agree with your own paranoid ramblings ?

    re.30
    Brits like my self Mark don't paint any picture about collusion. But
    maybe that's your problem, you believe we do!
    
    I've asked this before and, go on, I'll ask again in the vague hope
    that it stirs an answer.
    Why is the word collusion even being used? All the accused parties have
    sworn allegiance to the crown and are therefore on the same side. And
    since the IRA call this a war its the colluders versus the rest right?
    
    But thats too simplistic of course and not my opinion by any means.

                                            from "Troops Out" - magazine of
                                            the Troops Out Movement
                                               (Aug./Sept. '94)

THE LONG WAR
               by Douglas Brown


The Long War, Channel Four's week of programming marking 25 years of British
troops back on the streets of Ireland, raised plenty of expectations.  A
whole week of programmes focusing on the British armed occupation seemed too
good to be true.  And so in fact it was.

Which is not to say there weren't some high points.  Orla Walsh's low budget
but intense short drama "The Visit", about a woman's experience during her
husband's imprisonment in Long Kesh, stood out as both personally compelling
and politically sophisticated.  Mary Holland and Michael Whyte's 1979 docu-
mentary "Creggan" was repeated alongside their new programme "Shankill", both
of which give an airing to voices which are normally ruthlessly excluded from
British screens.  Other offerings were a bit more hit or miss.  The award win-
ning "After '68" struggled heroically to combine the personal history of a
mother and daughter with the complex events of the Civil Rights years, while
the much hyped "Wingnut and Sprog" ditched politics altogether in a rather
over neat tale of street life in working class East Belfast.

But what was most glaringly absent in a week that was, after all, meant to be
about the militarisation of Irish politics by the British state, was the
question of British involvement itself.  The programmes that you thought
would tackle these questions didn't even try.  Malachi O'Doherty's documentary
for Frontline about changing perspectives in the republican movement was
caught between debunking British propaganda myths about Republicanism and
repeating them.  Martin Dillon's "The Last Colony" relied almost entirely
on the testimony of British politicians and senior officers, and tellingly
restricted itself to the period between 1969 and 1972.

The thrust of this documentary, and indeed of the whole week, was "that was
then, but this is now".  Yes, bad things happened 25 years ago, and yes,
mistakes were made:  the Stormont regime, the burning of the Falls, intern-
ment.  But that's history, and now it has all changed.  There were no
investigations of the massive collusion between Crown Forces and loyalist
paramilitaries or of the arming of loyalist murder gangs by British agents.
There were no documentaries on the framing of the Ballymurphy Seven or the
Beechmount Five, of the daily harassment and injustice suffered by nationalist
communities, or the persistence of entrenched discrimination.  No mention
either of the effects of the war in Britain, of the gagging of the media, of
the militarisation of policing, the state sanctioned racism of the Prevention
of Terrorism Act (PTA), of the ominous new powers of the Criminal Justice Bill.
Things are alright now.

Except they are not, and even this kind of tunnel vision won't hide the fact
that the war goes on and the casualty figures keep mounting.  Which leaves
something of a problem for programme makers.  How can the continuing conflict
be explained if the daily injustice of British armed occupation is no longer
to be shown, and if collusion and death squads don't even rate a mention?  The
answer, of course, is simple -- it can't.  Or so the story goes: the war, or
rather "the Troubles", continue without rhyme or reason.  They are literally
inexplicable.

The centrepiece of "The Long War" was "Loved Ones", a series of 25 five minute
films each of which focused on a single death via family photos and the re-
collections of close relatives.  On one level these films managed to com-
municate something of the human cost of the war, so long ignored by the British
media.  But on another level they had a different story to tell.  Divorced
from any explanation of the realities of the conflict and shorn of any sense of
the British state in the north of Ireland, the cumulative effect was to paint
a picture of irrational, repetitive, and motiveless killings, all alike in
the savagery and mindlessness of their perpetrators.  The final programme of
week was billed as providing some sort of background to this catalogue of
violence, but supplied instead a sub-Rock and Roll Years medley of disconnected
news footage and out of context soundbites.  The realities which underlie the
conflict -- state violence, massive discrimination and routine harassment --
are spirited away, and in their place we are fed a story of irrational, motive-
less violence by two primative and near identical "tribes".

This simple but effective story has increasinly come to dominate reporting of
the war in Ireland not only in newspapers but throughout broadcasting.  It
provides a powerful strategy, allowing reporters to appear balanced by
giving equal weight to both "sides", loyalist and republican alike, while
conveniently letting the one side that pulls the strings and pays the piper,
the British state, off scot free.  It also gives the appearance of humanitarian
concern for individual suffering, while allowing those who actually oppose the
war through continued British occupation to be labelled as terrorist sympathiz-
ers and fellow travellers.

The last 25 years of war in Ireland have seen a steady and relentless encroach-
ment upon media freedoms.  The informal but effective practice of "referal
upwards" has been supplemented by more upfront methods, such as the Broadcast-
ing Ban and prosecution under the PTA.  Less obvious but equally important has
been the political power exercised over the terrestrial TV channels through
the market "reforms" of the 1980s:  for ITV, the process of awarding franchises
and for the BBC the all important question of the Corporation's charter and
funding.  Broadcasters know the score.  You don't rock the boat, and you don't
make a fuss about Ireland.

The story of "two tribes", of irrational and inexplicable violence, is the
result of these years and of diminishing media independence.  It allows
broadcasters to have their cake and eat it.  They can appear to be independent,
evenhanded and, crucially, concerned with the worthy goal of peace, while at
the same time effectively supporting the status quo and the continuing
violence.  For if the violence in Ireland is inexplicable and irrational rather
than the result of inequality, discrimination and the denial of communities'
autonomy and right to self-determination, then there is little point in
working for an effective and lasting political solution.  The message after 25
years of violence is simple but clear -- just grin.

    re .36 What you don't appear to realise is the "troops out' movement
    which produced the report that you quote is a tiny, marginalised and
    in the main far left movement which is ignored as irrelevant by the
    U.K. public and media and whose marches usually consist of three people
    in woollen hats and sandles. The coverage that they critisize for not
    fitting their narrow preconceptions and prejudices is in fact produced
    by a number of program makers from across the political spectrum. The
    fact that in the end they all come to virtually identical conclusions
    regarding the nature of the violence and refuse to support fairy
    stories regarding "high level collusion" and all the other phrases
    beloved of apologists for the terrorist murderers is a good indication
    that the views of fringe groups such "troops out" are irrelevant and
    and in the main based on fantasy 

    
    He doesn't care. It's propopaganda isn't it? 
    

 re. .37

  Read Amnesty International, and Helsinki Watch
  Human rights reports on British collusion in
  north east Ireland.  Educate yourself.

                  Mark

    re .39 I've read your somewhat selective extracts from same and as
    Chris Eastland among others has pointed out even they don't bear out
    your claims.

Mr Holohan, if you wish to `educate' people then why don't you post to
a larger audience, such as ::SOAPBOX for example?

Chris.

    He tried putting his three halfpence worth in Soapbox note #1140 and
    was met with the same mixture of hilarity,incredulity and disgust that
    he meets here.
    

    Yes Amnesty International...
    
    
    That well known organisation...
    
    
    As co-founded by an...
    
    
    
    EX-IRA member

re .43
    
  I don't have that much of a problem with AI, in fact I'm actually a member 
of same. The only bitch I would have is that they appear overly concerned with
the human rights of terrorist thugs, who IMHO mainly don't qualify as human 
beings anyway, while ignoring the violations of the human rights of the poor 
sods who get killed and maimed by the thugs on both sides. 

                              Dennis

Re: .37, .38

Which parts, exactly, are propaganda and fantasy?

Thanks
M

    
    Mark
    
    I totally agree with you that it is disgraceful that the Irish
    government have allowed 30,000 British troops to introduce virtual
    martial law into north-east Ireland.  Don't the residents of counties
    Louth, Monaghan and Cavan object to British troops being deployed in
    the Free State?  Can't the Irish Army (the proper one, not your
    comrades in the IRA) patrol these areas properly - no wonder you're
    asking for help from the United Nations.
    
    And what about us in Northern Ireland - are the troop levels here
    (currently just over 10,000) being reduced to help prop up the Irish
    Army?  
    
    I hope the current Irish-American delegation will answer these
    questions as well as many others - like why is bread so expensive here
    and why is the MacDonalds in Belfast the most expensive in Europe??  We
    need answers.  (We need cheap burgers!!)
    
    Gerry
    

    re .45 Most of it, whether propaganda or fantasy depends on whether the
    proponents are aware that they are lying or actually believe the
    rubbish that they propagate

 re. .46

 Har-har Gerry.  Why don't you whine to the British
 about your Big Mac prices.  I'm sure they'll subsidize
 these too, if they know how important it is to keep
 the likes of you dumb and happy.

    Holohan,
    
    Why don't you start a conference dedicated to Northern Ireland and
    "the troubles" there?  Some of us *used* to follow this conference
    because we were interested in learning about our Celtic ancestry;
    I'm Welsh-American!!  You might do well to remember that everyone
    of Celtic ancestry is NOT Irish!!
    
    Typically I hit NEXT UNSEEN as soon as your node and name appear;
    but it's getting tiresome.  Wonder how many others your one-sided
    propaganda has driven off?
    
    Karen
    

>                         -< Give us a break, PLEASE! >-
>
>    Holohan,
>    .
>    .
>    .
>    Typically I hit NEXT UNSEEN as soon as your node and name appear;
>    but it's getting tiresome.  Wonder how many others your one-sided
>    propaganda has driven off?
>    
>    Karen

	Me too!  He used to wind me up - now I don't read the sh_.t.

	I also agree that it's time to split the conference, the new
	one could be called ASSHOLO::BIGOTS. 

        It won't happen, however, because no-one would read it except
	for the the hate brigade.  Which wouldn't help their crusade
	to spread their venomous bile and twisted half-thruths to an 
        audience who are overwhelmingly in favour of reconciliation and 
        live-and-let-live.

        This is why HOLOHAN, DARCY and others of their ilk will continue
	to poison this conference.
	

	My 2 cents,

	Kevin.

>    Why don't you start a conference dedicated to Northern Ireland and
>    "the troubles" there?  Some of us *used* to follow this conference
>    because we were interested in learning about our Celtic ancestry;

I agree entirely.  The reason I subscribed to this conference in the
first place was to learn a bit more about Celtic history, customs etc.
I was disappointed to find that at the time I first looked in here
most of the notes were antagonistic commentary about the NI situation;
unfortunately I must admit to having added to the trashing of the
conference by replying to these, but I do take things personally and
it is difficult to leave some of the more offensive comments unanswered.

It seems that the original scope of this conference has almost died
out.  That is a great shame; I would like to see it return to a 
reasoned discussion forum about things Celtic, but that unfortunately
seems unlikely whilst some noters insist on using it as a political
soapbox.

Chris.

	>for the the hate brigade.  Which wouldn't help their crusade
	>to spread their venomous bile and twisted half-thruths to an 
        >audience who are overwhelmingly in favour of reconciliation and 
        >live-and-let-live.
    
    Kevin,
    
    I'm definitely in favor of reconciliation, unconditional peace, and
    civil negociation in NI.  I was very happy with the IRA ceasefire
    (in fact I thought it should have come a LOT sooner) and hope that
    other parties follow suit.
    
    I am not in favor of the status quo in NI (full militarization) if
    that is what you mean by live-and-let-live.  I think the good people
    of NI deserve a lot better than the status quo.
    
     /   /
    Siochain,
    George
             

    RE: .50  by JURA::BURKE 
    
        >This is why HOLOHAN, DARCY and others of their ilk will continue
	>to poison this conference.
    
    By what stretch of the imagination do you accuse George of poisoning
    this conference?
    

>    By what stretch of the imagination do you accuse George of poisoning
>    this conference?
    
He must have meant the infamous Drotter, surely?

Chris.

    I too must come to the defence of George. While I haven't always agreed
    with his opinions, I certainly would never accuse him of inciting
    hatred. Hopefully Kevin, this was a case of mistaken identity.
    
    Joe.

    Yeah, don't let Holohan put you off Americans.  They're not all like
    him.
    
    Rock on George Darcy.
    
    Mark

 re. .49

 "I'm Welsh-American!!"

 That's wonderful Karen. Let's see some posts about
 Welsh Nationalism.  I'd also join in on discussions
 on how the English government cracked Welsh heads
 during the mining strikes. 


 re. .50
 Burke is it, well that just about says it all, 
 doesn't it.  Burke by name, burke by nature.



                  Mark

 
 
 

 regarding, Mark Rennison, Joe Smyth, Chris Hedley,
 Dennis Ahern.

 Gee guys, now you've really gone and hurt my feelings.
 < inserst Bronx cheer >

                  Mark

    re .57 
    
    Is that the best you can do, resort to childish name-calling?
    
    Dave

  re. .59
 
  You're right, I should not have stooped to his and
  your level.

    Rational debate rather than resorting to name calling and personal
    insults is stooping in your book, is it?
    
    Dave

    .57
    
    You just don't get it do you Mark?  If I were to get into a 
    discussion about Welsh Nationalism it wouldn't be in a conference
    whose *original* purpose was to bring people of Celtic heritage
    together to discuss and pursue topics of interest, primarily NON-
    political interests!
    
    It used to be great peeking in here and reading about places to
    travel and see in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England.  I
    particularly enjoyed the translation of Gaelic names, wedding vows, 
    songs, etc.  A fellow Celt gave me the translation for my Dad's
    name, Talliesin.  For all the differences in customs, it always
    seemed the sum total of things binding Celts together were greater
    than those separating us.  The wit and humor I used to enjoy so 
    much seems to have evaporated completely.  I can remember following
    strings started by my Irish brethren that had me laughing so hard
    I could barely catch my breath; where has all this wit and humor
    gone?
    
    True, from time to time some of the discussions about Ireland got
    heated, but you have almost single-handedly turned this conf-
    erence into a yawning bore with your pro-IRA propaganda!  I have no
    doubt you'd join in discussions of how the English government cracked
    Welsh heads; hate to disappoint you, but that isn't why I started
    following this conference.
    
    I don't need the likes of you preaching to me about Welsh Nationalism.
    The men in my family were coal miners, one and all.  They were brave,
    hard-working men who worked in and got out of the mines; then they
    moved on with their lives.  A young man who worked in the mines with
    my grandfather Edward Rhys, later became Governor Arthur James of
    The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
    
    I keep coming back in here from time to time, hoping against hope
    that CELT will have found its former identity.  Unfortunately Mark,
    you seem determined to prevent that from happening :-(  Why don't
    you start a conference on Northern Ireland that would clearly indicate
    to anyone opening it what the conference was all about?  You could
    rant, rave and post stuff to your heart's content and leave the rest
    of us be to discuss *things* CELTic!!  
    
    
    
    [End of buffer]
    

    RE: .62  by TOHOPE::REESE_K 
    
    >.57
    
    >The wit and humor I used to enjoy so  much seems to have evaporated
    >completely.  I can remember following strings started by my Irish
    >brethren that had me laughing so hard I could barely catch my breath;
    >where has all this wit and humor gone?
    
    A great deal of wit and humor was made redundant when Galway was sold
    down the river.
    

    
    Mmm nice fight going on here while I was climbing the Gornergrat. Mark,
    I really do think you should cut back on the out and out insults giving
    how quick you are to fire off email demanding deletion. Maybe in a few
    years, when you've mellowed a little and can look at the issue of fair 
    play. 
    
    I've unseened all your other ramblings.  Now doubt you've been cheering
    on Cahill, Doherty, Adams, McGuinness and the other IRA council thugs
    as usual.
    

 re. .62

 Nope, I guess not.  I don't see a diversified view
 on the situation in north east Ireland as pro-IRA
 propoganda.  Was it the Amnesty International reports
 that upset you the most.  In any event, if you don't
 like it, try next unseen, it works for me.

                      Mark

    .62
    
    It wasn't the Amnesty International reports that upset me; I don't
    give a tinker's toot about Amnesty International.  I guess my
    frustration with your unwillingness to confine the discussion of
    NI to a few topics just spilled over in this topic!!
    
    Karen
    

 re. .66

"I don't give a tinker's toot about Amnesty International."

 Perhaps you should, then perhaps you'd learn something.
 In any event, it's not my burden to educate you, next
 time you see a human rights report, or a news report
 on northen Ireland, hit next unseen, and spare us
 all your ignorance and your desire to stay that way.

                   Mark

    Mark,
    
    As I have said repeatedly (as have others); this is the CELT notes
    conference!!  If you would confine your discussion of NI to a few
    select topics you would make it infinitely easier for the rest of
    your fellow noters.
    
    Have you no concept of noting etiquette?  I would expect that I
    might find a few topics dedicated to the subject of NI in this
    conference, but you insist on populating almost each and every dis-
    cussion with references to NI.  Everytime something hits the wire
    services that *you* deem important, you start yet another topic on
    NI.....this is NOT how it is done in almost every other conference
    I follow.
    
    I never thought I would use Soapbox as a good example, but here 
    goes :-)  In the 'box we have a few noters who have a very keen in-
    terest in subjects that can be very volatile such as "The Church vs.
    Abortion", or the NRA.  The 'boxers who are interested in these
    topics debate their views in a given topic, they don't keep re-
    populating the conference by opening topic after topic on what is
    basically just a slightly different twist on the same subject.
    
    It goes without saying that it DEFINITELY is not your burden to
    educate me; and to even suggest that I *should* be interested in
    Amnesty International gives me a very clear indication of what a
    pompous twit I mistakenly tried to reason with.  The only reason
    I've pursued the discussion this far is due to the fact that I've pointed
    several co-workers to this conference because in times past they would
    have been able to get questions answered that pertained to their
    CELTic (mostly Irish) heritage.  All of them gave up in disgust while
    trying to find the appropriate topic in which to ask their questions
    :-(
    
    No one ever learned anything while being bludgeoned ove the head!!
    
     

    .63
    
    Dennis,
    
    It is sad about Galway and that closure left a big hole in this
    conference, but are you saying that ALL Irish wit and humor came
    out of Galway? :-)
    
    By the way, has anyone seen WE 3???
    
    

    
    I, too, came to this conference for Celtic stuff.  I stayed for the
    great humour.  Now that is pretty much gone.
    
    
    I was going to propose a ceasefire in this *file*.  No more 'postings'. 
    No more personal attacks.  No more provacations.
    It's the same old thing, over and over, save the occasional voice of 
    reason from noters in Ireland itself.  
    
    
    The unfortunate problem is that a ceasefire here requires either
    agreement from both sides, or control by the moderator.  I don't see
    much hope of *either* happening. We could vote, but without these
    conditions the result would be meaningless. 
    
    
    This notes file is being pretty much destroyed.  Kind of a shame, given
    the hope evident everywhere else on current situation.  I'm out of here
    soon.....
    
    
    Marshall
    
    

    There's still a smaller, yet witful (is that a word?) tribe
    left in Galway.
    
    Though I do miss the diatribes of
    	the Snake (a Potted history of Ireland)
    	Pat "Up Cork" Manning
    	Craig Cockburn (*pronounced Co-Burn*)
    	Phillip Mannion
    	Denis Maillard (notre histoire buff)
    	Paddy "The Elder" Culbert
    	remember Don Hunter?
    	the verbal flair of Joe Drotter (imitations don't cut it)
    	and Mr. Topaz
    	Dermot O'Sullivan
    	J.O'Reilly (his wife and Irish Wolfhound are more Irish)
    	Kevin "mr.music-scene-and-good-craic" Sullivan
    	Mr. keVin "I-know-a-friend-who-can-get-you-that" Burns
    
    Ah yes, the notesfile is becoming a bit feeble in its old age...
    All we ask for now is 3 meals and clean sheets...
    
    /g

    
    Maybe it is time to do a clean up job ok..no offence to anyone but from
    a readers point of view this is getting abit out of control...
    
    ..still I am sure any questions on Ireland in general (non-political)
    will get answered and folk are always welcome to call to the office
    ...that said Kev burns is "down the road" so lord help us at the
    weekend.....
    
    mick 

    RE: .69  by TOHOPE::REESE_K 
    
    >It is sad about Galway and that closure left a big hole in this
    >conference, but are you saying that ALL Irish wit and humor came
    >out of Galway? :-)
    
    A great deal, I said, a great deal.  What remains has become altogether
    too serious.  I, for one, miss the snake.
    

    .71  Truely a list of the Who's Who of CELT :-)  Ah, if we could
    	 only get them back on-line for a day!!
    
    

        Re: Note 1400.50 

        >  This is why HOLOHAN, DARCY and others of their ilk will continue
        >  to poison this conference.

	         +----------------------------+
                 |         APOLOGY            |
                 +----------------------------+


	George Darcy,

	Please accept my apologies for bundling you together with
	the likes of Mark Holohan.  I was wrong.

        It was a case of mistaken identity.  Chris Hedley was quite 
        correct when he said that I must have meant Drotter.
	
        I stopped reading the political stuff ages ago, and somehow
	got Darcy and Drotter mixed up.


	I'm Sorry,
	
	Kevin.

        PS.   This apology would have come sooner but for DECstep 6, which
	      kept me off-line since Friday.
 

                                The Irish Times
                                September  15, 1994

                          Loyalist threat may close firm


   A top construction company was yesterday on the verge of being forced out of
business by loyalist paramilitaries.

   The firm McQuillian Brothers of Newry, Co Down has stopped work on 15 sites
in Northern Ireland and temporarily ceased trading in a bid to negotiate a
rescue package and save 300 jobs.


   The company has faced cashflow problems after intimidation of workers and
other shootings in the greater Belfast area.

   Loyalist gunmen have murdered five building workers alone this year and
attempts to try and keep frightened men on the sites has meant soaring wage
bills.

  A company statement confirmed: "Those who agreed to do so would only do so at
exorbitant rates.
   The costs of materials for most of the fixed-price contracts has also
rocketed.

   The company added: "Both these factors had a disastrous effect on the firm's

cash flow and trade ceased temporarily"

   Building site extortion and threats against workers is widespread in
 Northern Ireland.

   Loyalists are heavily involved and the Newry firm which employs Catholics and

Protestants is the single biggest casualty of intimidation to date.

    Northern Ireland Housing executive officials tonight con firmed that the 15
sites had been secured to stop vandalism and theft.