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Conference tallis::celt

Title:	Celt Notefile

Moderator:	TALLIS::DARCY

Created:	Wed Feb 19 1986
Last Modified:	Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	1632
Total number of notes:	20523

1342.0. "Bernadette Devlin McAliskey" by KOALA::HOLOHAN () Thu Mar 10 1994 17:00

The following is excerpted from a speech by Bernadette Devlin McAliskey
in Detroit on Nov. 5, 1993 at the Gaelic League Hall.  The speech, accompanied
by an interview, appear in the March/April issue of Against the Current
(copies are available for $4 each from ATC, 7012 Michigan Ave., Detroit,
MI 48210).  Against the Current is a bi-monthly socialist magazine of news,
commentary and analysis.

******************************************************************************
The Irish Struggle Today

It's not very easy to be heard on Ireland.  After twenty-five years of unbroken
struggle we still find ourselves trying to break into the human rights agenda,
despite the fact that there is a mountain of literature from Amnesty Inter-
national and Helsinki Watch on the consistent violation of human rights in the
north of Ireland.

We are, if not on the human rights agenda, beginning to get on the political
agenda--and to finally correct the impression that the struggle in the north
is about religion.  Whatever else it's about, it is certainly not about
religion, certainly not about theology, certainly not about religious
intolerance.

People are at least beginning to realize that the issues in the north of
Ireland are historic issues, based on the problem of imperialism.  They have
to be resolved by correcting the historic wrongs.  The developing conflict
in the Eastern European countries, in the former Yugoslavia for example,
forces people to begin to understand the importance of the question of national
identity, the question of self-determination.

And we, like so many other people, are at a critical point in our country's
history.  We are used to the problem being misrepresented.  We are used to
people being confused about what the core issues of the problem are.  And of
course we have learned, over twenty-five years, to work under censorship.
Most people in America are unaware that even the scant information that
comes to them from Ireland is censored information.

Almost all the media information coming out of Ireland and coming out of
Britain about Ireland is information that first of all excludes the presence
of dissidents:  Sinn Fein, a number of other organizations, and then people
who might (that includes myself) express an opinion that might concur with an
opinion that might be expressed by a member of an organization not allowed to
use the press.

CNN, which prides itself on being everywhere--like God and Paddy the Irishman--
rarely gets closer to Ireland than London.  The information that you see from
CNN has been bought from the British Broadcasting Corportation (BBC), from the
Independent Television Network (ITN) or from the Irish radio station--but it
generally comes from the BBC.

Nobody ever notices this except for one occasion when Gerry Adams, the leader
of Sinn Fein, was almost heard in America.  CNN took a clip fromm the BBC and
Mr. Adams was on.  But people in America who picked up the broadcast realized
it wasn't Gerry Adams voice.  Then they realized that CNN had used BBC material
--and because the British media is not allowed to use Gerry Adams' voice, his
face was there and of course the words were spoken by an actor.  Alternately,
on British television Gerry Adams appears in silence and his words are
paraphrased beneath him, as if the entire population were hearing impaired.

The average American citizen--whether they be radical, liberal or conservative,
it doesn't matter what they are--ordinary decent human beings watching their
televisions or reading their weekend newspapers are confronted with an image of
Ireland that is unilaterally and universally violent.  And they see the
violence in Ireland perpetrated by this particular organization called the
Irish Republican Army (IRA).

What I'm saying is that people in this country are provided with no context,
no basis against which they can relate the bits and pieces of information they
receive.  Not only are the bits and pieces they receive censored, they are
without context, without analysis.  They tend to only exist in dramatic and
generally tragic circumstances, creating an image that violence in the
community is created by the IRA.

What then is happening in the north of Ireland?  Given the endemic violation of
our human rights, the endemic structural, social, economic and political dis-
crimination against us, given the institutional violence, and the physical and
overt violence of the state toward the nationalist community, what is surpris-
ing in the northern Ireland context is that the violent response, that the
response in terms of armed struggle, has been as restrained as as limited as
it has been, rather than the other way around.

The vast majority of resistance in the north of Ireland is non-violent
community and political resistance.  However, we are portrayed in such a
manner that even the most open, most democratic and non-violent activity of
the nationalist and Republican community is seen as violence in and of itself,
just as the mentality of the media is that people should not be allowed to
say things which might sound like things that Gerry Adams might say if he was
allowed to say anything.

So anybody who organizes and takes a position, particularly if they do so
successfully, who promotes a question, raises an issue that may or may not be,
or is likely to be, or currently is an issue which draws attention to the
violence of the state, is viewed as an apologist for terrorism.

The IRA would argue its position that it exists as a defense mechanism against
the state's violence, that it exists because of the social and econonmic
deprivation and discrimination against the nationalist community, that it
exists because of the denial of national identity and self-determination.
Anybody, then, who raises any of those issues is deemed to be giving credence
to terrorism and therefore is a terrorist or crypto-terrorist oneself.

We in the north of Ireland are openly referred to as "the terrorist community".
Police refer to us as that.  Quite often civil servants refer to us as that.
It's one of those phrases that's crept into the English language.  (Another is
referring to Britain as "the mainland".)

We are a terrorist community.  We have terrorist youth, terrorist mommies,
terrorist daddies, terrorist babies, terrorist dogs, terrorist cats by virtue
of the fact we live within certain areas--West Belfast, the Bogside and Cregan
of Derry, Coalisland.  If you're ever stopped in the north of Ireland, regard-
less of where you're going to or coming from, if they ask you, don't say
Coalisland.  That's worth two hours on the side of the road--just because you
mentioned that town.  It's a terrorist town--probably with terrorist fields,
terrorist cows.

And this accusation despite the fact that we have resisted, survived, organized
around, worked within the most abysmal and violent conditions, created not by
the IRA but by the state.

I work in a number of organizations such as the Irish National Congress--a
thirty-two-county organization whose specific role is educational in the
south--breaking the silence brought by censorship, raising the issue of the
rights of the people of the north.  It's also a forum for people in the
south of Ireland, who have been terrorized by the state into silence on issues
in the north of Ireland and social justice issues in the south.

I also campaign for economic equality.  I am working to document, research,
highlight, publicize and non-violently organize boycotts about the endemic
discrimination against the nationalist population.  This discrimination
results structurally in a nationalist, regardless of where they live or their
education, being two-and-a-half times less likely to be employed than a member
of the Unionist population.  That was my business at Ford headquarters this
morning {ie. regarding McBride}.

All of that non-violent peace and justice work involves trying to resolve the
injustices and by resolving them, to bring peace.  But all this is deemed by
the government to be subversive.  There's a great deal of community work.
There's a whole spectrum of work in the communities to create alternatives to
the conditions in which people find themselves.

There are educational schemes, community schools, self-help schemes, business
opportunities, creches.  These include discussion, debate, organizing--all at
a community level.  All of this non-violent peace and justice community work,
and all deemed to be subversive by the state.  At a human rights level I also
work for the Committee for the Administration of Justice, which is accredited
and affiliated to Amnesty International, Helsinki Watch and almost all the
international human rights groups.  So all this organizing keeps us, as we say
in the north, from being completely full of ourselves: we can be the head of
one organization and we can be the rank and file foot soldier in the next.

Only those who have come to Ireland and walked in the community and met this
so-called terrorist community see one of the most deeply entrenched, most
vibrant resistance movements that you'll see outside Central America.  The
work goes on in the social justice field, in the human rights field, in the
economic field, in the political arena.

Under the international conventions--the UN Charter of Human Rights, the
European Charter of Human Rights--it's a right that people be allowed to
choose their own representation.  People who from the nationalist community
in Northern Ireland--particularly those who form the community of resistance,
those who bear the brunt of the state's war, the state's repression, the
state's violence and state's denial of their democratic, cultural, economic
and political rights--have spoken and spoken effectively for many years now
as to who that community chooses for its political representation.  And that
community chooses Sinn Fein.

It votes Sinn Fein.  It votes Sinn Fein in West Belfast, it votes Sinn Fein in
Coalisland, it votes Sinn Fein in Derry and right across the country.  Sinn
Fein has representation on every single council.  I think there might be one
council in the country where there's no representation, in the very heart of
the Loyalist northeast.

So the community has democratically chosen Sinn Fein.  And one of the most
insulting things that we find, when people come to visit us, be they press or
anybody else, is that they try to concoct some reason.  They ask us this
peculiar question,"What do you think makes people vote Sinn Fein?"  They ask
it in that way--it has the same tone to it as "What causes rickets?"

People always ask the question in this vein.  "What makes people vote Sinn
Fein?"  In the same breath they offer you possible suggestions.  "Is it because
the government is so bad to them?" "Perhaps it's because they're so poor?"
"Maybe it's because of the military repression?"

Now it partly is because of all those things, but sooner or later people have
to get it into their heads that there's a large population, a large segment--
in fact just over 40% in Belfast--that vote Sinn Fein because they *like*
Sinn Fein.  They like Sinn Fein's policies, they like Sinn Fein's work on the
ground, because by and large the people involved in the community--human
rights, social, economic justice campaigns--are members of Sinn Fein.

I'm not a member of Sinn Fein, but every area that I'm working in, I'm working
all the time with members of Sinn Fein.  Very, very rarely do I work with
Social Democrats {ie. the SDLP}--Social Democrats aren't the people who do
social justice, grassroots, human rights work.  They do not document human
rights abuses, they are not endlessly available in the middle of the night
for people who are arrested.  Social Democrats do not get out of their beds
in the middle of the night to go looking for other people's children.

When you are doing that kind of real work, when you are assisting in creches,
when you are involved in discussions about possible new Constitutions, when
you're involved in study groups looking at the Scandinavian political exper-
ience or trying to evaluate the developments in South Africa or the peace
movement in the Middle East, where in all those discussions there will be
people  from the human rights movement, people from the equality movement,
people from Sinn Fein, never do Social Democrats come.

Sinn Fein is internally a democratic, open party--which has local branches
people can join, or not join, and send which send delegates to the annual
general meeting.  Sinn Fein has an overall national program .  Legally in any
negotiations for the future, we have chosen our political representation.
By right, we expect that if there is a discussion about the future of the
people in our country, we expect Sinn Fein to be there to represent us.

And there is no reason why Sinn Fein should give concessions to be there.  The
presence of Sinn Fein at any negotiations is not dependent on whether the IRA
does or does not have a cease fire, whether Sinn Fein does or does not join
the Quaker movement, whether Sinn Fein does or does not promise to go to mass
twice on Sunday, whether or not they mention socialism.  These are not
conditioned by Irish-American sensitivities to the work.  All these things are
irrelevant.

Sinn Fein has a right to be at the negotiations about Ireland's future is
based simply and solely on the independent right of the people to choose their
representation.  The UN's Charter of Human Rights says that people have the
right to choose their elected representatives--and we have chosen Sinn Fein.

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
1342.1		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Thu Mar 10 1994 17:39`	4
	.. or, a Sinn Fein/IRA party political broadcast. You notice how she doesn't say if she supports the IRA bombing campaign either..
1342.2		KURMA::SNEIL	FOLLOW WE WILL	`Thu Mar 10 1994 17:44`	6
	Now there's a woman with a massive chip on her shoulder. SCott
1342.3		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Thu Mar 10 1994 17:44`	2
	She always did have..
1342.4	Ooops! Did I miss quote you...	PAKORA::GMCKEE	That blokes' a nutter	`Thu Mar 10 1994 18:55`	7
	re.2 "Now there's a woman with a massive chip shop on her shoulder." I doubt if she's been anywhere near the Shankhill Rd.
1342.5		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Thu Mar 10 1994 20:08`	2
	Good one!
1342.6	Add lashings of salt to .0	ADISSW::SMYTH		`Thu Mar 10 1994 22:34`	30
	There are a major misrepresentations in the base note: >>It votes Sinn Fein. It votes Sinn Fein in West Belfast, it votes Sinn >>Fein in Coalisland, it votes Sinn Fein in Derry and right across the >>country. Sinn Fein has representation on every single council. I >>think there might be one council in the country where there's no >>representation, in the very heart of the Loyalist northeast. What country is she talking about. So she accepts NI as a standalone country. Sinn Fein has a few councillors in a handful of counties in the Republic and none that I know of on "Mainland" (apologies to Bernadette, but I can't think of another term for THAT island) Britain. >>Now it partly is because of all those things, but sooner or later >>people have to get it into their heads that there's a large population, a >>large segment-- in fact just over 40% in Belfast--that vote Sinn Fein >>because they like Sinn Fein. They like Sinn Fein's policies, they like >>Sinn Fein's work on the ground, because by and large the people involved >>in the community--human rights, social, economic justice campaigns--are >>members of Sinn Fein. This is a misrepresentation bordering on lies. Sinn Fein has a 40% vote OF Nationalists, not the entire voting population. They lost their Westminster seat (Gerry Adams) to the SDLP in 1992. Sinn Fein whined about tactical voting by Unionists, but I suggest they read .0 about right to choose representation. I also would like to ask Bernadette what she was doing at Dominic McGlincheys funeral. This man was a vicious thug who lived beyond all law and died as such. Joe.
1342.7		KIRKTN::SNEIL	FOLLOW WE WILL	`Thu Mar 10 1994 22:50`	10
	> I also would like to ask Bernadette what she was doing at Dominic > McGlincheys funeral. This man was a vicious thug who lived beyond all > law and died as such. She described him as "A great republican".Tell that to the families of the people he killed. SCott
1342.8		PLAYER::BROWNL	What goal-posts?	`Fri Mar 11 1994 04:03`	4
	What really worries me about stuff like .0, is that people who know no better read it and believe it as gospel. Laurie.
1342.9	British and West-Brit attacks on human rights activist	KOALA::HOLOHAN		`Fri Mar 11 1994 08:36`	15
	What really worries me is British and West-Brit attitudes that can attack a woman who is known to the world as a human rights activist. The British constantly play games when they talk about percentages of voters, but when a human rights activist points out that 40% of nationalist vote for Sinn Fein, that fact is considered misleading. Like I said before, hypocrisy is a British word, often taken up by West-Brits, and British wanna-bees. I suggest you try reading the reports sent out by the human rights organizations that Bernadette talks about, and get a true picture on who is playing games. Mark
1342.10	Works both ways.	BUSSTP::DSMITH	Tears of a clown..fatboys's back	`Fri Mar 11 1994 09:06`	21
	re last After reading all your entries in various topics, you strike me as being an Irish wannabe, but safely ensconed thousands of miles away from the troubles. As for human rights, very few of the "Irish" activists mention the human rights of the innocent people slaughtered by the IRA and their minions throughout the years. Sure the British have been responsible for some pretty nasty actions in Ireland and overseas, but try and remember some of the atrocities carried out by so-called freedom fighters who hide behind guns and bombs and attack civilian targets. Danny. ps Was the shooting of an off-duty unarmed police officer who was on a night out with his wife and at greyhound race track a breach of human rights or merely and acceptable attack by the brave freedom fighters?
1342.11		VYGER::RENNISONM	One hundred and eeiigghhttyyyyy	`Fri Mar 11 1994 09:32`	14
	What the hell is a "West_Brit" ? I assume you are referring to the citizens of Northern Ireland who consider themselves to belong to the UK. As for Bernadette Whatsername, remember the old saying "There are lies, damn lies and statistics." Sinn Fein are a minority. End of story. If they were so well supported and had such amazing international prestige, as you suggest, they would not have to resort to violence. No go away home and relax for the weekend. Mark R
1342.12	Twisting the words again Mark.	ADISSW::SMYTH		`Fri Mar 11 1994 09:36`	13
	re .9 >>but when a human rights activist points out that 40% of nationalist vote >>for Sinn Fein She never said the Nationalist vote, she said "there's a large population, a large segment-- in fact just over 40% in Belfast--that vote Sinn Fein", which to me implies 40% of the total vote and I'm sure it seemed that way to her audience. You can call me what you like Mark, but I prefer to stick to the facts. Joe.
1342.13		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Fri Mar 11 1994 10:23`	8
	Irishwoman author on WGBH TV here talks about the terror-groupies as she calls them, mostly under/graduate students from the US or other armchair revolutionaries, who trek out to the Catholic areas of Belfast to get autographs from all and sundry and drink in the revolutiuonary atmosphere, while ranting the shop worn slogans and cant we are subjected to here with almost every new note.
1342.14	Collect the whole set...	TALLIS::DARCY	Alpha Migration Tools	`Fri Mar 11 1994 10:35`	3
	Does "Irishwoman" have a name? Is that her pseudonym? Kind of like "Clareman", or "Church woman" on Saturday Night Live? ;v)
1342.15		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Fri Mar 11 1994 10:38`	5
	I _don't_ remember, or I would have said who it was. She was on a show with Kevin Cullen of the Globe and Bob Connolly of the Herald and a BU English professor.
1342.16	SPAM - SPAM - SPAM - SPAM - SPAM	HILL16::BURNS	ANCL�R	`Fri Mar 11 1994 10:41`	9
	Watch yourself Darcy !!!!!!! :-) keVin
1342.17	Bernadette knows the Shankhill very well !	CHEFS::HEELAN	Dale limosna, mujer......	`Fri Mar 11 1994 14:46`	10
	re .4 "I doubt if she's been anywhere near the Shankhill Road" Wrong....check out her history as a Volunteer, before she became a born-again "Human Rights" expert ! (She's got guts though...having survived being seriously injured in at least one nearly successful assassination attempt). John
1342.18		METSYS::THOMPSON		`Fri Mar 11 1994 14:49`	12
	Re: West Brit I know this one ... It is a term that is used in the "South" more than the "North-East". It refers to people who are so British in the outlook they are said to regard Ireland as the "West part of Britain". I think it is used as a mildly humourous term in general but is more of a mocking term when used by the Republicans. M
1342.19	To Danny, the Brit wannabe	KOALA::HOLOHAN		`Mon Mar 14 1994 09:00`	28
	re. .10, Danny "After reading all your entries in various topics, you strike me as being an Irish wannabe, but safely ensconed thousands of miles away from the troubles. " I am an American, period. I happen to have been born in London to Irish and Welsh parents. The only wannabe I ever wanted was to be an American. Sorry if this upsets your picture. Now you Danny Smith, strike me as a Brit wannabe, am I correct? I've an old British passport that you're welcome to (if you don't mind the charred edges :-) "As for human rights, very few of the "Irish" activists mention the human rights of the innocent people slaughtered by the IRA " Then I suggest you are ignorant and have never listened to any of them speak in public. Most of the "activists" condemn violence on all sides, be it from the British army, the RUC, the UDA, the UDR, the UVF, the UFF, the INLA, or the IRA. They just like to point out that of the seven or so paramilitary groups in north east Ireland. the 5 British ones should be condemned as well. Mark
1342.20		YUPPY::MILLARB		`Mon Mar 14 1994 09:42`	4
	Mark. We know you are an American Period. Every twenty eight days you prove it.
1342.21		PAKORA::GMCKEE	That blokes' a nutter	`Tue Mar 15 1994 05:19`	13
	Rep 19 "of the 5..." are you suggesting that the RUC and the UDR are paramilitary groups ?? G.. re John Heelan, thanks for the update, she may be a human rights activist etc... but as has been pointed out she is well trained in talking to her own audience (in the same way Adams did during his US visit).
1342.22		BUSSTP::DSMITH	Tears of a clown..fatboys's back	`Tue Mar 15 1994 08:01`	44
	re .19 "Now you Danny Smith, strike me as a Brit wannabe, am I correct?" Nope, very much wrong I'm afraid. I hold both an Australian passport, through birth, and a British passport through naturalisation so I'm a fully paid up Brit. My father is Scottish and I have lived here for 28 years so I would love to say I'm a fully paid up Scot but my British passport says otherwise. Just to let you know Mark, I probably have as much respect or time for the British government, passed and present, as you have. Yes, it's easy to spout off and bad-mouth the government for passed and present failures. I was probably one of the few in my college class to condemn them during the Falklands war, I also know and condemn them for their treatment of the aborigines in Australia many years ago etc etc. However, as much as I distrust the British government, placing bombs and killing innocent civilians will not get rid of them. I did not and never have voted for the Conservative Party yet they have governed Britain for the passed umpteen years. That does not mean I should take up weapons to remove them from power, they have to be voted out. You can rant and rave for ever about the "atrocities" carried out by the British Army in Northern Ireland, I would probably agree with you to a certain extent on many issues. However, your blatant refusal to condemn the IRA and their minions for the atrocities carried out against civilians in mainland Britain and NI, leave most noters in here full of contempt for you. Killing innocent people, by both sides, will not solve the problems of Ireland. Only by sitting around a table and trying to solve the problems in a peaceable manner will have any effect. Bombing mainland Britain, firing mortar bombs at a "public" airport only strengthens most people's resolve against the IRA. An opinion poll carried out yesterday said 90% of voters felt that the current peace talks should be stopped until the IRA cease their current campaign. Is that what the IRA want? Do they really want a united Ireland or are the gangsters and rackateers making such a good living out of other peoples misfortunes that they are prepared to sabotage peace talks at any cost? Danny.
1342.23		ADISSW::SMYTH		`Tue Mar 15 1994 08:51`	9
	>>An opinion poll carried out yesterday said 90% of voters felt that the >>current peace talks should be stopped until the IRA cease their current >>campaign. Is that what the IRA want? Unfortunately yes, since they are not being allowed to the table on their terms, they do not want any progress being made among the constitutional parties. Joe.
1342.24	Rule Britannia, Britannia waves the rules	KOALA::HOLOHAN		`Tue Mar 15 1994 10:17`	37
	re. .22 I think that the IRA and Sinn Fein want to be able to sit down at the peace table, without pre-conditions. I think they also want and have a right to demand an end to British collusion with loyalist death squads, an end to jury-less trials, an end to censorship of legal political opposition, an end to oppressive legislation, and an end to economic apartheid. I'd like to know why you and others weren't in here screaming about how the British do not really want peace, when Amnesty International issued it's report that the British government was colluding with the loyalist death squads at the highest level (January 1994)? Innocent people are currently being murdered by these death squads with whom the British forces collude. How does this compare to the IRA trying to give the British people a taste of economic war when they launch mortars (purposely set to not explode) at the Heathrow runways? The IRA didn't kill anyone in that attack, but the British continue to murder in their attacks. Why is it that the continued murder of innocent Catholics by loyalist death squads (with whom the British forces at the highest level collude) somehow doesn't warrant a British public outcry that their should be no peace talks? By the way, once again for the reading impaired. Violence is wrong, whether it is committed by the British army, the RUC, the SAS, the UDA, the UVF, the UFF, or the IRA. Violence was wrong when it was used by the French resistance movement during world war II, the American Revolutionary Army during the war of independence, etc, etc. etc. No one is for violence. That said it's easy to understand that there are times when it is wrong but necessary. Mark
1342.25		SUBURB::FRENCHS	Semper in excernere	`Tue Mar 15 1994 10:36`	6
	Mark Re (purposely set to not explode) How do you know this, unles of course you are a member of the IRA command chain.
1342.26		KOALA::HOLOHAN		`Tue Mar 15 1994 10:46`	6
	re. .25 "unles of course you are a member of the IRA" Get a grip.
1342.27		NEWOA::GIDDINGS_D	The third world starts here	`Tue Mar 15 1994 11:11`	13
	I can think of at least four possible reasons why the mortars did not explode: 1. They were purposely intended not to. 2. They had an consistent design flaw, as stated in the UK press. 3. They were unintentionally not primed properly. 4. They were nobbled. I wouldn't know which if any of these is the real reason. Dave
1342.28		KERNEL::BARTHUR		`Tue Mar 15 1994 11:47`	9
	Is it important? They didn't deliberately take the risk of being caught planting them and then walk away knowing they would not go off. That leaves evidence and it leaves Semtex unused. No, it was a mistake or they were nobbled but then the security people will never admit that.
1342.29		PLAYER::BROWNL	Hardly roof-down weather!	`Tue Mar 15 1994 11:48`	15
	RE: <<< Note 1342.24 by KOALA::HOLOHAN >>> � By the way, once again for the reading impaired. Violence is wrong, � whether it is committed by the British army, the RUC, the SAS, � the UDA, the UVF, the UFF, or the IRA. Violence was wrong when it � was used by the French resistance movement during world war II, the � American Revolutionary Army during the war of independence, etc, � etc. etc. No one is for violence. That said it's easy to understand � that there are times when it is wrong but necessary. So Mark, please help me here; I'm obviously extremely stupid, because I still don't know the answer to this question. Do you condemn the Warrington Bombing as a cowardly act? Or not? Yes or No? Laurie.
1342.30		KURMA::SNEIL	FOLLOW WE WILL	`Tue Mar 15 1994 11:50`	7
	2 or 3 is more likely in the the real world...but there are others who are not of this plant that believe otherwise. SCott
1342.31	This article can be retrieved from clari.world.europe.western	KOALA::HOLOHAN		`Tue Mar 15 1994 12:05`	81
	In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Reuter/Paul Majendie) writes: Approved: [email protected] Path: jac.zko.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!wupost!looking!bass!bass!clarinews Comment: Subject mapped from all upper case From: [email protected] (Reuter/Paul Majendie) Newsgroups: clari.world.europe.western,clari.news.terrorism,clari.news.aviation Distribution: clari.reuters Subject: IRA Sought Propaganda Not Killings with Mortars Copyright: 1994 by Reuters, R Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 94 5:20:19 PST Expires: Mon, 21 Mar 94 5:20:19 PST ACategory: international Slugword: IRISH-MORTARS Priority: regular ANPA: Wc: 573/0; Id: a0440; Src: reut; Sel: reute; Adate: 03-14-N/A Lines: 61 Xref: jac.zko.dec.com clari.world.europe.western:5046 clari.news.terrorism:2750 clari.news.aviation:3631 LONDON (Reuter) - The 12 Irish Republican Army mortar bombs fired at London's Heathrow airport were designed to scare not kill people, police and politicians said Monday. The unexploded shells that went skidding across runways and bounced on a terminal roof offered IRA bombers an international publicity bonanza and brought 25 years of guerrilla warfare in Northern Ireland home to mainland Britons. London detectives probing the mortar bombs that brought chaos to Heathrow with three attacks in less than a week have confirmed they all suffered from mechanical defects. Moderate Irish nationalist John Hume, urging the British government to negotiate with Irish Republicans, agreed with a theory put forward by detectives in the Northern Irish capital of Belfast -- the bombs were never meant to detonate. Hume told BBC radio on Monday while visiting the United States: ``It was their intention to demonstrate to the British government what they are capable of.'' Hitting a plane crammed with passengers or sending shrapnel showering down on a terminal full of people would inevitably spark international revulsion. Such carnage would would also risk a political backlash in the United States after the recent visit there by Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams, leader of the IRA's political wing. Tourist authorities are already fearful that Americans, seeing scenes of chaos at Heathrow, may now cancel their British summer holidays in large numbers. A senior Northern Irish police officer said the IRA, which is fighting to oust Britain from Northern Ireland, had perfected its mortar techniques over a quarter of a century and such a failure rate was unprecedented. ``The Provos (The Irish Republican Army) are piddling about. If they really wanted to cause death and destruction, they could do it. It's second nature to them,'' he said. ``What they are doing at Heathrow is hinting at the potential. They are having a good laugh and keeping morale high back here in Belfast. ``It embarrasses all the security agencies, makes the government cringe and better still, keeps the pressure on (British Prime Minister) John Major,'' he added. Major came under pressure from fellow Conservatives to act tough against the IRA -- but calling in troops, tanks and armored cars to surround Heathrow could heighten the IRA's profile and scare off business and tourist travelers. Leading Conservative Sir Ivan Lawrence said travelers found an army presence at airports around the world. ``They are reassured by that. They feel safer when they know the army and the police are there,'' he told BBC television. IRA bomb teams have wreaked havoc in Northern Ireland with mortar attacks on police stations. One, a direct hit on the canteen at a station in the border town of Newry, killed nine policemen. While the mortar bombs were being lobbed into Heathrow and the IRA was gaining media attention worldwide, the IRA killed a policeman in Northern Ireland and Protestant extremists killed a Catholic. The killings did not make headline news. That prompted the nationalist Irish News in Belfast to comment on Monday in an editorial: ``As always, the fact that lives have been lost in Northern Ireland during the airport bombings has been all but ignored. ``Delayed planes at Heathrow mean more than dead police officers or civilians across the Irish Sea.''
1342.32		SUBURB::FRENCHS	Semper in excernere	`Tue Mar 15 1994 12:10`	5
	It doesn't really matter if the mortars were meant to explode or not. If they had hit an aircraft during take off or landing the entire plane could have been destroyed and all crew and passengers could have been killed.
1342.33		PAKORA::SNEIL	FOLLOW WE WILL	`Tue Mar 15 1994 12:18`	35
	What crap. > The unexploded shells that went skidding across runways and >bounced on a terminal roof offered IRA bombers an international >publicity bonanza and brought 25 years of guerrilla warfare in >Northern Ireland home to mainland Britons. Ye right,Like the British Public have never been the target of the IRA before. > London detectives probing the mortar bombs that brought >chaos to Heathrow with three attacks in less than a week have >confirmed they all suffered from mechanical defects. They were intended to explode,why else would they put explosives in them. > Hitting a plane crammed with passengers or sending shrapnel >showering down on a terminal full of people would inevitably >spark international revulsion. But killing children doesn't > Tourist authorities are already fearful that Americans, >seeing scenes of chaos at Heathrow, may now cancel their British >summer holidays in large numbers. Bull,There was only 11 calls made inquiring about the situation at Heathrow SCott
1342.34	Remember when Rambo was Wimpo ?	CHEFS::HEELAN	Dale limosna, mujer......	`Tue Mar 15 1994 12:28`	7
	re .33 Let's see how many Shermans cancel their UK trips though, just like during the Gulf War or other times airline travel has been threatened. John
1342.35		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Tue Mar 15 1994 12:46`	3
	Not too many according to today's Herald..
1342.36		TOPDOC::AHERN	Dennis the Menace	`Tue Mar 15 1994 13:18`	7
	RE: .31 by KOALA::HOLOHAN See what I mean? What on earth does "Subject: IRA Sought Propaganda Not Killings with Mortars" have to do with Bernadette Devlin? You've got so many topic titles and they're all ratholed.
1342.37	They ARE a lethal danger	TROOA::MCRAM	Marshall Cram DTN 631-7162	`Tue Mar 15 1994 13:36`	21
	Jet aircraft engines are giant vaccum cleaners, they suck in anything in front. They will explode if struck internally by a bird at take-off/landing speeds, that is disintegration throwing out bits of blades as shrapnel. A hard object liked a unexploded semtex bundle will do this. I have no idea whether Semtex would detonate on the blades but common sense says so. That would take the engine off the pylon, cause a fire from the leaked fuel, and probably damage, perhaps fatally the wing structure. On take-off or landing the roll what happens when a engine goes can cause cause a castrophe. Lobbing bricks by mortar at moving jets, even on the ground, could be lethal. Putting Semtex on makes it even worse. Ask any pilot what would happen if one of these 'duds' got within 50 feet of the front of his engines. Just leaving junk on the ground near jets is considered a serious safety offence. Marshall
1342.38		SNELL::ROBERTS	Spring cleaning at the Whitehouse	`Tue Mar 15 1994 14:05`	7
	re:.37 that's why 'they' give out warnings. So planes are not able to operate. Just who 'they' is of course has not been determined.
1342.39		KOALA::HOLOHAN		`Tue Mar 15 1994 15:34`	7
	re. .36 You're right. So how's about back to the topic. What's your opinion on Ms. Devlin's speech? Mark
1342.40		TOPDOC::AHERN	Dennis the Menace	`Tue Mar 15 1994 16:15`	10
	RE: .39 by KOALA::HOLOHAN >re. .36 >You're right. So how's about back to the topic. What's your >opinion on Ms. Devlin's speech? Didn't read it. Don't plan to. I mostly hit <next_unseemly> whenever I see one of these extracted posts.
1342.41	So what IS your opinion?	ADISSW::SMYTH		`Tue Mar 15 1994 16:47`	8
	re .39 I gave mine, but was told by you that I was a West-Brit for daring to question her, so much for rational argument. So what do think of it, Mark? Joe.
1342.42	One track mind	KIRKTN::GMCKEE	That blokes' a nutter	`Wed Mar 16 1994 03:27`	4
	Mark only has ONE opinion and you can read it just about anywhere in this conference. The rest is regurgitated from the net...
1342.43	Yay or nay.????	BUSSTP::DSMITH	Tears of a clown..fatboys's back	`Wed Mar 16 1994 05:47`	35
	re .24 "Innocent people are currently being murdered by these death squads with whom the British forces collude" Many innocent people are currently being murdered by the IRA. Many people in Irish communities throughout the world contribute funds to groups such as NORAID. Much of this money finds it's way to the IRA therefore am I correct in saying that the contributers are in collusion with the IRA death squads? "The IRA didn't kill anyone in that attack" Not for want of trying. They have succeeded in killing many innocent civilians in previous attacks. "No one is for violence. That said it's easy to understand that there are times when it is wrong but necessary" Are you saying that it was wrong but necessary to kill 2 young boys in Warrington? Was it wrong but necessary to kill a dozen or so people at a memorial service in Enniskillen? Do you condemn the IRA for these murders, just as you condemn the loyalist death squads for the murders they perpatrate? We would like to see a straight yes or no. I've only recently found this conference and I've yet to see Mark Holohan give a straight answer. He'd make a great politician; avoid giving a straight answer but hide behind figures and retoric condemning the other side. There are 2 sides to every story, both of which are manipulated to suit the current topic of discussion. Danny.
1342.44		KERNEL::BARTHUR		`Wed Mar 16 1994 07:05`	11
	re.43 a bit like Gerry Adams n'est-ce-pas! just to continue this rathole a bit further, apparently Sinn Fein's call for clarification, is their way of saying that they won't sit down at the negotiating table until the clause about the unionist veto is withdrawn. Now to my simple British mind, thats exactly what negotiations are all about
1342.45		PLAYER::BROWNL	Hardly roof-down weather!	`Wed Mar 16 1994 08:01`	3
	What exactly about the declaration needs clarification, I wonder? Laurie.
1342.46		SUBURB::FRENCHS	Semper in excernere	`Wed Mar 16 1994 08:15`	4
	Maybe... Does the British government _REALLY_ want us to stop maiming and murdering small children before they talk peace.
1342.47		KOALA::HOLOHAN		`Wed Mar 16 1994 08:34`	19
	I found that Bernadette's speech was very interesting. It confirmed an opinion that I've held regarding the war in north east Ireland. That it is not about religion as the British like to portray it. That lost in all the rhetoric is the littany of human rights violations that are perpetrated by the British. I'm amazed at the number of people (Irish and Irish descent) who have not read any of Amnesty International's reports, or even Helsinki Watch's reports on these violations. I'm glad she understands an American point of view regarding censorship. It's something that we consider an ananthema. I've often seen a total apathy on the part of many Irish and British people regarding censorship, and it's affects. I'm proud that I live in a country that has a Bill of Rights, and quarantees freedom of speech. All in all, an excellent speech. Mark
1342.48		PLAYER::BROWNL	Hardly roof-down weather!	`Wed Mar 16 1994 10:08`	4
	What about the littany [sic] of human rights violations that are perpetrated by the IRA/UVF/UFF et al. No mention of those, eh? Laurie.
1342.49		NOVA::EASTLAND	I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR	`Mon Mar 21 1994 11:44`	17
	re 1342.22 - I had to seek this out to comment on it:- > Just to let you know Mark, I probably have as much respect or time > for the British government, passed and present, as you have. Yes, it's > easy to spout off and bad-mouth the government for passed and present > failures. I was probably one of the few in my college class to condemn > them during the Falklands war, I also know and condemn them for their > treatment of the aborigines in Australia many years ago etc etc. So when did Australians become culpable for the treatment of the aborigines, or did you all decide you were only Australians when the dastardly deeds had been done? The settlers in Van Demen's land and elsewhere where Aborigines were brutally treated regarded themselves as Australians did they not? How utterly convenient to shove it all off on the British.
1342.50	talk is not always cheap	ESSB::CMAGUIRE	Sometimes they come back...	`Wed Aug 17 1994 07:42`	13
	re .21 > re John Heelan, thanks for the update, she may be a human rights > activist etc... but as has been pointed out she is well trained > in talking to her own audience (in the same way Adams did during > his US visit). Funny, I would have thought if she had received any training, it was in talking to the opposite audience ie. when she was elected to the House of Commons as Britian's youngest MP. And her name is Bernadette McAliskey, not Devlin. Conor.