Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    	Are you sure these came from the New York Times and not Gentleman's
    quarterly?
    John
    (of the white socks, red neck and blue ribbon beer)
     

    re .0, I'm so glad I'm not a man! ( And, I used to think it was only
    because I didn't have to go to Vietnam.)
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .1
    
    Not from GQ ... trust me
    

    
    What??, no salt on a margarita glass??.
    
    Utmost nonsense!!!.
    
    Arturito.

    
    	not only that, ::QUIROGA, but barbaric as well!!!!!

    re .4, but I like it!
    
    Lorna
    

    9+4, harumph.
    
    unfashionable...
    
    ed

    It's a Windsor knot, not Winsor.  (Winsor is half of Winsor-Newton, who
    make the world's finest artists' paintbrushes.)
    
    Things a man should know include these:
    
    - Not to wear pre-tied bow ties.
    
    - How to tie a bow tie carelessly enough that it's obviously not pre-tied.
    
    - Never to button the bottom button of a 3-piece suit's vest.
    
    - Never to remove his suit jacket in public.
    
    -dick

    RE: .8
    Dick 
    
       I like those,  a bow tie is a true test of right-brain activity
    
       add;  - wearing braces
             - folding a pocket square
             - wearing a flower
             - carrying a pocket watch
             - removing salt stains from shoes
             - how to wear jewelry
             - french cuffs and links
    chris

I was vain enough to compile my own list, to which you should all adhere.  
I think about a dozen are carried over from the original list:

Fifty Things Every Guy Should Know:

1.  How to write a sonnet
2.  The location of three good used book stores
3.  The location of three good microbreweries
4.  All the words to at least two Irish Folk Songs
5.  Appropriate use of spices in cooking
6.  How to get around using mass transportation
7.  That a workout should be better for the soul than the body
8.  That Richard Brautigan, not Norman Mailer, is the imagination of his 
    generation
9.  How to play Sheepshead
10. Enough about video games to be conversant with a ten year old
11. How to shoot pool, and how to spot a pool shark
12. Where to park
13. How to select good produce
14. That clean jokes are funnier than dirty jokes
15. That you don't serve good beer under 50 degrees farenheit
16. How the Dewey Decimal System works
17. The vi editor
18. The shapes and locations of all 50 states, and the capitals of most
19. Why hops are important
20. That some people wear ugly ties because they have kids
21. That the guy who runs the betting pool had better not win
22. The name of a good headhunter
23. That his hair is thinning, and that it's ok
24. Which kind of coffee decafenating process is best
25. How to forge a woman's signature
26. How to play Cricket (as in darts)
27. Where his updated resume is
28. That changing your own oil is a waste of time and energy
29. The shape of his face so he can shave without some silly-@ssed fog-free
    shaving mirror
30. How to hail a taxi and how much to tip
31. When to give money to street people
32. What your boss really thinks of you
33. How to eat with chopsticks
34. Why baseball is a better spectator sport than basketball
35. How to make a good martini
36. A lot about a good musical group that no one else has ever heard of
37. The history of your home town
38. How to do the wine thing at a restaurant without seeming naive, snobby,
    ignorant, silly, or precocious

and these from the original list

39. The Zen of washing dishes
40. How to give a compliment
41. How to take a compliment
42. That you're supposed to go through a revolving door before she does
43. CPR
44. How to make friends with a 3-year-old
45. That when a woman says no, she means no
46. Never to show up for dinner at someone's house empty-handed
47. When to leave
48. That saying "I don't know" is not as unattractive as you think
49. That your father understands you better than you think
50. That good taste is not nearly as much fun as style

    > How to write a sonnet
    
    You're kidding, right?
    
    
    Bubba

    Re: .11
    >> How to write a sonnet
    
    > You're kidding, right?
    
    I should rather think not.  Jim, are we permitted a choice of English or
    Italian form?
    
    -dick

    Re .11
    
    Not only is he not kidding, but he meets the requirement with
    considerable verve and style!
    
    A facility with words can be invaluable in both the social and
    professional arena.
    
    Great list, Jim!
    
    	Ron

    
    re: .5 & .6
    
    I was merely pointing out the "proper" way of serving that "mahvelous"
    beverage.
    
    I'll continue doing it my way, with lots of salt crystals around the
    rim of the glass, none of that pulverized salt. It's the only "manly"
    way to do it!!!.
    
    Again, with tongue in cheek.
    
    Arturito.

    I've written an Italian Sonnet and a Villanele - and I'll sell 'em for
    the right price!  (And neither is about love.  The Sonnet's mostly
    about fire and the Villanele's totally about reincarnation).
    
    ;>
    
    Sandy-who-always-salts-the-margaritas-unless-specifically-asked-not-to

    The last sonnet I wrote was English -- it was also an acrostic;
    that is, the first letter of each line spelled out the name of
    the person to whom the sonnet was dedicated.  
    
    					andrew

    Why write sonnets? Just memorize one good one and _never_ repeat
    it to the same woman twice.

    Why even bother with sonnets?  Use lines from old Bogart or Cagney
    movies.

    Hey gang ... I was only joshin' about that sonnet stuff.  To each
    his  own - but it most assuredly isn't in my bag oh' tricks (I
    subscribe to the Hatashita San school of grace, charm and dignity).

    I guess it's a 'hang up' that I've got.  Poetry drives me up the wall.
     
    When I was in college .. my last semester ... I needed one stinkin' hour 
    ... one miserable, absurd hour of "non technical elective".  I offered
    to take a 4 hour course in quantum electrodynamics - a 4 hour course in 
    statistical physics ... noooooooooooooooo ... it had to be non-technical.

    I swore that I would find a miserable 1 hour course that would satisfy
    the requirement - I was bound, damned, and determined that I was NOT
    going to give them the satisfaction of me having to take a two or three
    hour course ... one hour .. the minimum .. that's all .. nothing more
    .. nothing less.

    I looked in to home economics, history, etc ... the only thing that I
    could find was a one hour course in ... poetry.  Great, no big deal.
    I'll breeze through it.  Probably some wimp guy teaching it.

    WRONG!  The nut that taught the course *lived* to read, study, write,
    and, yes ... teach poetry.  He thought that everyone should be a junior
    poet.  Even jarheads.

    I went through pure unmitigated hell to scratch out a "D" in that
    course ... just so that I could graduate.

    To this day I despise poetry ... after lo' these many years later ...

    Even when I bought my wife those mushy type cards for various
    occasions, I'd look for one without poetry because she'd always read it
    to me.  

    I'll buy the other 49 things on that list, but, to this day I have
    never experienced circumstances which would have necessitated my
    recitation of a sonnet.  Never.

    Besides ... if one knows the words to "Dixie", "The Eyes of Texas",
    and, "The Marine Corps Hymn" ... what more beautiful words are there?

    Sorry, I didn't want to embarrass any of you myn who like poetry. To
    each his own.

    Bubba

>    subscribe to the Hatashita San school of grace, charm and dignity).

	Or was that the Hatashita school sans grace, charm and dignity?
     
>    When I was in college .. my last semester ... I needed one stinkin' hour 
>    ... one miserable, absurd hour of "non technical elective".  I offered
>    to take a 4 hour course in quantum electrodynamics - a 4 hour course in 
>    statistical physics ... noooooooooooooooo ... it had to be non-technical.

	At least you went into it with an open mind.

	Bubba, next time you're int town I'll take you to the Chicago
	North Side Poetry Slam, and you can find out what being a real 
	man is all about.

	-Jim

    re.21 Jerry, get hold of a volume of Robert Service.
    
    Stuff like "The Ballad of Blasphemous Bill" or "The Shooting of Dan
    McGrew" or "The Spell of the Yukon" might change your attitude.
    
    "Thank God, the whiskey's saved!"

Or get a book of good Australian poetry/songs. :-)

Dan

    
    
    51. Better.
    
    ;^)
    
    fred();

>	Or was that the Hatashita school sans grace, charm and dignity?
    
    Maybe.  Hard to be graceful with size 12 feet.
    
    If you're trying to melt someone's heart, I think you're further ahead
    to say "Lady, let me hold you."  than to try something like, 
    
    	"She walks in beauty like the night, 
    	 Of cloudless climes and starry skies..."
    
    Poetry's fine but it's difficult for it to retain relevence.

    Real men write poetry.
    
    (or at least read it...)    :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re: .28
    
    yes!
    
    in my book they do!
    
    -Jody
    

    mine too!
    
    :-)

    I thought that real men wore black.:) And read poetry!

    
    	not ALL real men do....
    	some listen to nelson riddle tapes as well...
    
    
    	guffaw

    
     I might add one more:
    
     Be able to distinguish all the parts and procedures for tuning up
    an automobile (even if he doesn't do it himself).
    
    Tony
    

    Heavens!
    
    Of course a man needs to write poetry.  What woman would kiss lips that
    had not first been kissed by the muse?  A man who woos without poetry
    has no heart to offer.
    
       ;^)
    
       Margaret

    re .34, re "Cynara...", etc., when I was a teenager I loved that poem. 
    I thought it was the ultimate in romance.
    
    Lorna
    

re: Bubba

Here's a simple poem.  Try it out- I'm sure you'll get a passing grade!

 
	A red rose whispers of passion, 
	And a white rose breathes of love,
	Oh, the red rose is a falcon,
	And the white rose is a dove,
 
	But I send to you a cream white rosebud,
	With a flush on its petal tips,
	For the love that is purest and sweetest,
	Has a kiss of desire on its lips.
 

	John Boyle O'Reilly

    
    "What's all this talk about 'Deaf bread and hype missiles can reach?'"
    

	 Well I don't think reading or writing poetry makes
	 a man..a *real man* !  Unless it's Stephen King..
	 his kinda poetry I could enjoy !  :-)

	kits

 > 	 Well I don't think reading or writing poetry makes
 > 	 a man..a *real man* !  Unless it's Stephen King..
 > 	 his kinda poetry I could enjoy !  :-)

    I can just see it ...

	There was a young fellow named Fud
	Whose face was all covered with blood
	As he opened the door
	He slipped in the gore
	And buried himself in the mud

	? Best I could do on the fly...

.27> Oh, I get it, Jerry.  You can't do it, so it's not important, and
.27> anyone who _can_ do it isn't "quite right" (they're "nuts" and "myn").

Hey ... to each his own.  I could really care less.  The guy that "taught"
my poetry class was a nut .. that's fer sure.  It just ain't my thang,
doncha' know.

.27> You wouldn't be a product manager by any chance, would you?

Worse.  Infinitely worse.  I'm in sales.

.36> Here's a simple poem.  Try it out- I'm sure you'll get a passing grade!

Good Lawd, John.  If I read something like that I'd have female_lady_wimmins
from the arts and croissant crowd all over me.  I like women who wear
Panhandle Slim dresses, Lucchese boots, drive step-side pickum-up trucks
with a gun rack in the back ... and topped off with a Stetson ... listen to
Randy Travis, Clint Black ... drink beer and two-step.

Bubba

    
    
    Speaking of poetry, there was an old poem my father taught me
    many years ago which I'll never forget......
    
    If the ocean was whisky
    and I was a duck
    I would swim to the bottom
    and never come up
    
    
    Enjoy,       
    
    
    Carl
    

    I'm one those people that poems are lost on.  If a man recited a poem
    to me I would be very confused and wondering what he needed that for
    when he could just be straight forward.  Sorry, but that's the
    analytical and logical side of me.  Poetry just doesn't click with me.
    
    Karen

    Thanks, Karen.  At least I'm not alone.
    
    Bubba

  	A true poet is music to the ears, but all too often
	men/women who try to romance others with poetry are
	tintinnabulums. "Poets" who mechanically rhyme and 
	rhyme, creating verse like the little bell on the
	door of a busy pawnshop. The person, the tintinnabulum,
        the type of rhymester often found in very local
	newspapers, is the dogged, would-be poet, one who loves
	climatic echoes at the ends of lines of verse that 
	others are sorry they ever began reading. A true clinker,
	whose crambo is always appreciated in the greeting card
	industry.     :-)

	I'd much prefer a wit-snapper.


	kits

    Thanks Karen. I can'ts spell. Never mind reads...."-)

    re .42, poetry seems logical to me.
    
    re .44, try Carl Sandburg, Robert Frost, W.B. Yeats, T.S. Elliot, Walt
    Whitman, Shakespeare, Robert Burns, etc, for some truly worthwhile 
    contributions, to the human race, by white males.
    
    Lorna
    

	re .46 ::STHILAIRE

	I have read those you mentioned.....and you left out
	one of the greatest...Edgar Allan Poe. My library
	overfloweth with great works of Prose and Poetry.


>    contributions, to the human race, by white males.
 

	by the way, some truly worthwhile contributions have
	been made by black males as well.

   

	kits    

    re .47, re: black males, I never said they didn't - Langston Hughes,
    Jean Toomer, for example.
    
    Denzel Washington's *face* is enough of a contribution for me! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

      
>I like women who wear
>Panhandle Slim dresses, Lucchese boots, drive step-side pickum-up trucks
>with a gun rack in the back ... and topped off with a Stetson ... listen to
>Randy Travis, Clint Black ... drink beer and two-step.
      
      Just remember who gets the rejects, Bubba.

>I like women who wear
>Panhandle Slim dresses, Lucchese boots, drive step-side pickum-up trucks
>with a gun rack in the back ... and topped off with a Stetson ... listen to
>Randy Travis, Clint Black ... drink beer and two-step.
 

This sounds poetic to me!  Bubba, you got the hang of it...way cool.

Mark

	Yes, excellent job.  A little reformatting . . . .

	I like women who wear
	Panhandle Slim dresses, Lucchese boots, 
	drive step-side pickum-up trucks 
	with a gun rack in the back
	and topped off with a Stetson
	listen to
	Randy Travis, Clint Black
	drink beer and two-step.


	I think you could get this published, Bubba.  At the very least,
	you should enter it in the Poetry Notes Conference.

	-Jim

    
    	hey! i know someone like that!!!

                <<< ROCKO::DUA2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]POETRY.NOTE;2 >>>
                                  -< POETRY >-
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Note 2980.0                       Mah' Magnolia                       No replies
16525::BEELER_JE "Two stepin' wid' dogs"              8 lines  20-MAR-1992 12:02
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	I like women who wear
	Panhandle Slim dresses, Lucchese boots, 
	drive step-side pickum-up trucks 
	with a gun rack in the back
	and topped off with a Stetson
	listen to
	Randy Travis, Clint Black
	drink beer and two-step.

    re .53, I like the poem, even though it doesn't describe the kind of
    women I like.
    
    Lorna
    

re Bubba, so how'd the poetry noters take it ;-)?

DougO

.55> so how'd the poetry noters take it ;-)?

    I'm anticipating my invitation to be inducted into the "Dead Poets
    Society".

    I'll be submitting it to a number of poetry oriented journals for
    publication ... will let you know how it comes out.  I'll probably be
    rich and famous as a result of this ... and I owe it all to MENNOTES.

    Bubba

    re .46
    
    Lorna,
    
    I'm glad you find poetry logical.  But, it makes no sense to me to have a
    man recite poetry to me when he could just come out say how he feels. 
    I know, he is probably being romantic, but poetry just doesn't do
    anything for me.  That's what I mean about logical, not that the poetry
    is or isn't.
    
    Karen

	Reciting poetry to women doesn't make sense to me either.

	Poetry is often the only way to say something that is
	difficult to put into words -- when you can't just come
	out and say what you feel.

	More often than writing about my feelings for a person
	though, I'll write a poem to describe how I feel about
	the Chicago River at a particular moment.  Or how I feel
	being left alone sitting in a bar.  

	Now, let's move on to number two.  Been to any good used
	bookstores lately?

	-Jim

  	..and lots of men *show* how they feel, rather than
	trying to rhyme a bunch of words together. Not all
	men are poetic, and these type of men shouldn't even
	try, because there are lots of women who appreciate
	them just as they are.

	Some expressions of caring that I've received that
	were not poetic:

	* offering to clean my guns (and his) after a day of
	  target shooting

	* taking my car and changing the oil

	* not yelling at me when I buried his jeep in a mud run

	* bringing flowers 

	..and on and on.   


	kits

    All this fuss over a poem that doesn't even rhyme.
    
    hmmpfff!

   	Actually, I wonder about the schlemiel's that put these
	lists together. They have got to be woefully clumsy,
	foolish, gullible, socially maladjusted, one who can't
	fix anything, who gets cheated as a customer, who drops
	trays of food is never taken seriously, in addition to
	being physically graceless, clearly inept and totally
	lacking in sex appeal.  Even worse.....it's not the guy
	who spills the soup, it's the guy who gets spilled on  :-)
	When he kills a chicken, it walks, when he sells umbrellas
	..the sun comes out, when he manufactures shrouds, people
	stop dying.

	Real people don't need lists.   ;-)  :-)


	kits
	

	Oh you caught me.  I'm not a real people -- I'm a Lisp program.

	-Jim

re: .61

	And this brings up a couple more items to add to 'the list'

	Its important to know the difference between a klutz, a schlemiel
	and a schlimazl:

        klutz--> a bumbler, someone who's all thumbs, accident prone
        schlemiel--> a jerk, particularly a nerdy sort of jerk
        schlimazl--> a born loser, someone with consistently bad luck


	...and being a real mensch means being nice to these folks too!

Mark

  re  .63

	you forgot to mention the nebbish. The schlemiel trips
	and knocks down the schlimazl, and the nebbish repairs
	the schlimazl's glasses.


	:-)

    Reciting poetry to members of the opposite sex (for whatever purpose)
    is not the only reason for its existence.

    You're right.  I can think of two... no - three other reasons for the
    existence of the opposite sex.

    
    	yes, ::HATASHITA...????

    re.66
    OK, lets see theres car repair and lawn maintenance what's #3? 8^)
    
    -j

    
    	you MUST be joking ::GORTMAKER!!!
    	those two would get the HANDS dirty!!!
    
    	so what 's the third, ::HATASHITA????

    No way, ::DENISE.  Think I want Mr. Mod all over me, doing the ol' -
    SET NO-SEE.  
    
    You're just going to have to use your imagination.

    
    	i thought you and the mr. mod were like this (imagine crossed
    	fingers) and that you could say no wrong in his eyes...
    
    	now what could have given me such an idea, do you reckon?
    
    	huh ::HATASHITA???

    
    Ok, seein' as how Kris ain't gonna say it I'll tell ya what he was
    thinkin':
    	1 Spendin' the ol' mans hard earned moola.
    	2 Burning the steaks on the BBQ
    	3 Naggin' the poor ol' bugger to death
    
    Happy now ya dragged it outer us po' lil fellas???
    JM

    1. Who played sax on Buddy Holly's "True Love Ways"
    2. Every line from "His Girl Friday" with gestures as appropriate
    3. That Philip Roth's generation must be REALLY SCREWED UP
    4. How to describe Sixth Century Frankish burial sites
    5. The complete lyrics of the "Green Acres" theme song
    6. Emergency sources of dark-roast coffee
    7. When to shut up
    

    I have a feeling that if Moretti and I ever had the opportunity to sit
    down and watch the sun set into the Oz Outback while hoisting a few
    wet, cold and bubbly ones, the conversation would go on until sunrise.
    
    Kris

    I don't know; I'm kind of glad I went to a different School of Hard
    Knocks than you guys did....
    
    Ray

    But can you think of a better setting for a good bout of railin'
    against the world, Ray?

    .73 reminds me of the quiz Steve Guttenberg had his future wife take
    in Diner.    :^)

>    But can you think of a better setting for a good bout of railin'
>    against the world, Ray?
    
    Yet another thing a man oughta know, Kris.  Hmm...  In front of a rock
    band, maybe?  That way you have a good chance of maximizing heartbreak
    futures.
    
    It would also be nice for a man to remember the response that the hunky
    hero makes to Jacques when he says "Come let us sit and rail against
    the world" in "As You Like It", but I can't.
    
    "Diner": Cool movie, cool quiz.  Too bad the Guttenberg character
    doesn't write for the New York Zzzzz, huh?
    
    Ray

    .73

    Whatcha mean by line #3?? Philip Roth wrote some great stuff! Yes some 
    of his charters were charters. But his generation being really
    screwed up??? Naw!! Disenchanted.

    One definite should know is when a woman really wants you to stay and
    when she REALLY wants you to leave.
    I'm battin' 50% at the moment but the odds are getting better as I get
    older. (ie I don't get the opportunity as much :^(   )
    John M