Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Don't think that its gone, but it takes thought and time and patience.  Those
seem to be in short supply.  Been courting my partner-in-crime for a while
now.  The florist is starting to recognise my voice on the phone.....

    Mr. Rauh - let me try and spare you some bashing... 
    
    Women also spend a great deal of time and money in the courting game -
    they simply spend their money on different things:  clothes, hair,
    makeup, clothes, beauty salon, tanning parlor, clothes, hair, clothes,
    workout clubs, clothes, shoes, pocketbooks, clothes...  get my drift??
    
    (Whereas male expenditures on the above items - and I'm generalizing,
    guys - are miniscule in comparison...)
    
    In my case, HELL NO courtship isn't dead!!   (Its even more fun if you
    try to court more than one woman at the same time ;-)
    
    When courtship is dead, I hope I am!  (Its the thrill of the chase!)
    
    Dave

    I wrote an article on this subject a few years ago. I tried to get it
    published a few times but gave up too quickly. Maybe I was too pessimistic.
    I'll see if I can find it. 
    
    My main contention was that romance was dying among adults because of
    the speed with which we move in relationships nowadays.
    

Re: .5

Nonsense!  It's just been relocated until after the commitment is made! :-)

		Steve

    I have never seen "courtship" go out of style.  In fact, the older I
    get, it seems like the more the man makes an effort, and the less I get
    pressured for a physical relationship.  I feel like there is a lot more
    respect involved.  It's really nice to be courted, but it also goes
    both ways in my book -- once I decide I like someone enough, it doesn't
    take long for them to get cards and short poems every once in a while,
    too!  I have been known to pay for nights out on the town too.  I work
    hard, and why should the man always be the one to spend the money,
    especially when you really like the person.
    
    I think if a woman allows the "wham bam" thing to happen, then it will. 
    Younger guys and guys with no scruples tend to go for that sort of
    thing, regardless.  I've never allowed this to happen.  Wait a sec,
    once I did, when I was drunk out with the girls.  Then I saw what was
    happening, could see it would have ended up being a one nighter, felt
    awful, and blew the guy off.  This happened a long time ago, but I
    remember how rotten I felt, knowing that they guy didn't like me as a
    person, he just wanted a piece of butt ...  In remembering this, I do
    notice a trend in men trying to take advantage of women who have had
    too much to drink.  I can easily see why the Willie Smith thing
    happened, remembering back to my younger days when life was one big
    party ...
    
    But after all, I'm a complete sucker for romance and courtship.  If
    that aspect of my relationships never fade away, then that's the person
    I will end up marrying.  Since the romance and courtship piece has
    always faded, and I've always been the one in the end to work really
    hard to keep it going, I've always dumped the guys I'm dating because I
    get really sick of trying to keep it going and not being reciprocated!
    
    I seem to hear this from a lot of women whose marriages are failing
    and/or whose physical relationships with their SO/husbands are
    deteriorating.  So it really isn't a fluke or anything ...
    
    IMHO.  Tammi

Courtship doesn't have to be expensive.  Cards are cheap, and when you are
down and out you tend to have lots of idle time.  And time and attention
are the most valuable things that you can offer to a new partner.  If you
are creative, there are inexpensive things to do, even with kids in tow.
Use your imagination.

          <<< Note 628.8 by VINO::LIU "Flying backseat to the sun" >>>
                         -< Not Neccesarily Expensive >-

>Courtship doesn't have to be expensive.  Cards are cheap, and when you are
>down and out you tend to have lots of idle time.  And time and attention
>are the most valuable things that you can offer to a new partner.  If you
>are creative, there are inexpensive things to do, even with kids in tow.
>Use your imagination.

I agree.  Especially if you make the card yourself.  I've been courting the 
same woman for 17+ years.  The fact that I married her 14 years ago hasn't 
stopped me.  A simple thing like leaving the kids with a friend and 
preaparing a candle light dinner at home (even if it's only Spam ;')) can 
work wonders.

>        <<< Note 628.7 by GRANPA::TTAYLOR "fortress around my heart" >>>
    
    Well, first of all - is this p-name accurate??  
    Please don't take this personally, but...
    
>    I think if a woman allows the "wham bam" thing to happen, then it will. 
    
    Uhmm...  Truer words were never spoken! ;-)   You won't find many men
    that can resist a "wham bam" thing - as long as they find the woman 
    attractive, of course...   :-)   If you expect anything different, then
    you're setting yourself up for trouble...
    
>    Younger guys and guys with no scruples tend to go for that sort of
>    thing, regardless.  I've never allowed this to happen.  Wait a sec,
>    once I did, when I was drunk out with the girls.  Then I saw what was
>    happening, could see it would have ended up being a one nighter, felt
>    awful, and blew the guy off.  This happened a long time ago, but I
    
    Hey, wait a minute!!  I have scruples, but I'm not going to turn down a
    chance to "wham bam", either!!   (See, men have different opinions of
    what 'scruples' mean ;-)   And you didn't let a wham bam happen...  You
    were what guys refer to as a '....teaser'.
    
>    remember how rotten I felt, knowing that they guy didn't like me as a
>    person, he just wanted a piece of butt ...
    
    But you, on the other hand, had a deep, emotional attachment to this
    person based on a few hours together??   Goes both ways, ya know...
    
    NOTE: The following does not in any way, shape, or form condone unwanted
    violence (i.e., rape or date rape) or the abuse of women, but:
    
    Sorry, but women can't have it both ways...  They can't dress up in
    VERY sexually alluring outfits, strut around a bar, accept drinks from
    a man, trade sexual innuendos, and flirt, and then turn around and then
    say things like:
    
>    I notice a trend in men trying to take advantage of women who have had
>    too much to drink.
    
    Again, I do NOT condone ANY form of unwanted violence against a woman,
    but I can honestly say that if women were just a bit more definitive in
    their use of the word "NO", we might avoid a few cases of date rape...  
                                                     
    Dave

    We are losing track of the .0 subject:romance.
    When I was a teenager I used to think that women were so beautiful and
    saintly that even imagining I could see their lovely thighs was enough
    to get me close to a heart attack with excitement! Then came Playboy
    and many other magazines showing me a whole lot more. Somewhere along
    that time my feeling of romance changed and became much more sensuous
    in nature. I think to feel romantic, one must also not feel the "call
    of the wild".

    
    "But what have you done for me lately?" - Janet Jackson
    
    I love you babe.
    
    "But what have you done for me lately?" - Janet Jackson
    
    You're my woman... I'm your man... we love each other...
    
    "But what have you done for me lately?" - Janet Jackson
    
    My heart is so full of love for you baby...
    
    "But what have you done for me lately?" - Janet Jackson

    I started the base note and expected some replies, but not in the vein
    that they have come. 
    
    It is great to see that this wonderful thing still happens. As one
    person put it they have been courting the same person for 17+ years.
    
    I have been courting for 13 years and still find it exciting to see
    the look of joy on my wifes face when she gets that unexpected bunch
    of flowers or her favourite box of chocs.
    
    
    BTW as an aside if a man goes out on the town and if the chance arises
    he will no doubt take the chance of a wham bam thank you mam, but if
    it is someone he thinks he could get closer to he will not indulge
    as it might cause his advances to be dismissed.
    
    
    
    IMHO.
    
    MMF.

    Is courting dead?  It depends on what you want.  Some people require a
    lot of emotion around sex, some don't.  The former court, the latter
    don't.  Romance is an illusion and some require the illusion.  Some
    don't.  We've been told that it's women who require the illusion and
    the emotion and it's men who don't.  I'm not so sure.  When men
    "accept" the one hit wonder, many of them don't take her or it seriously.  
    I suspect it's because the emotion and illusion are missing for them and
    they really do prefer it, (and prefer that she provide it even if they
    are willing themselves to forgo it).  They just call it "the chase".  
    (Great tune by Tim Wiseberg, by the way!).  The "right" partner is the one 
    who offers the correct amount of emotion and illusion, whatever that may
    be.
    
    Sandy

Romance is what you make of it.  It can be illusion, but its your illusion.
The other day I was holding Cathy and she said something, and the pitch of
her voice brought back an image of the girl I met skydiving some years
ago.  And just for a moment, there were no laugh lines, and gray hair, and
aches and pains, and mortgage, and all the other baggage that adults carry...

    
    
    
     >>> Romance is what you make of it.  
    
    
    I think this is a key phrase!!!  I see my dad being "romantic" to this
    very day.  He frequently brings home little gifts.  He loves to leave
    little "naughty" notes where my mom will find them when she least
    expects to.  (Like one he left in here coffee pot not too long ago
    which stated, basically, that she was going to enjoy herself immensely
    later that evening.)
    
    I like to behave the same way.  When my boyfriend came over last night,
    I had flowers and a candlelight dinner waiting.  He was flabbergasted
    and said noone had ever given him flowers before.  
    
    	Greg

    
    Re: .3
    
    Dave, you hit it right on the nose with women, but some of us women
    also spend time courting - some of us ask for the date, some of us
    spend time making the candel-light dinners or taking that someone
    special out for a nice evening.
    
    However, my father used to tell me "it's the little things count" - I
    believe that, just a simple gesture, or sharing feelings can do wonders
    for those of you men who are courting - it doesn't necessarily take
    gifts, flowers, etc.....I do feel that "the call of the wild" in some
    "courtings" has a major effect too.
    
    -Lynn
    

    
    
    Courtship - a Middle Ages form of "winning" a woman, because in those
    days women were placed on pedestals, and believed to be goddesses. 
    Elaborate codes of behavior were established based upon this belief.
    Courtship mostly applied to the aristocracy.
    
    Romance/Romanticism was an artistic (mostly literature and music)
    movement from the early 1800s, coming out of France.  It was a revolt
    against Classicism. This movement dwelt with over indulgence in the
    emotions (Classicism allowed none), and more specifically those dealing
    with love lost or unrequited love. 
    
    Unfortunately, the above have impeded my embracing of either
    "courtship" or of "romance".  To me both terms remind me of either some
    archaic system of behavior, which defines men as beasts needing the
    goddess woman to civilize or of some Wagnerian opera that evokes great
    tragic emotions of lost love.
    
    I do recognize the need for building special moments by doing special
    things that are kindness and affectionate and the demonstration of one's 
    love  for the other. Such actions bespeak love, care, concern and bonding
    with the person loved. But do not ask me to treat women as divinity
    incarnate.  
    
    To evoke the "courtly" ideals, IMHO, sets up two systems for the
    treatment of humans, one for women, one for men.  Civilized behaviours
    apply to both the sexes.
    
    Boy, I bet I open a can of worms with this note.  I do recognize that
    some people thrive on "romance" and I am not saying it is wrong.  Just
    for me "contrived" codes of insincere or expected behaviours do not
    work for me.
    
    Paul

Well, if your interaction with people whom you are romantically interested in
feels "contrived" I personally think that you're doing it wrong.  On the
other hand, if it feels good and the two of you have something working, you
can call it whatever you want.  I never let semantics get in the way of
warmth and shared experience.

    re .19:
    
    While your definitions of courtship and romance may be academically
    correct (they're not -- the Romance first appeared in 12th century
    France), they're not what most people mean when they discuss romance
    and courtship.  The meanings of these words have, like the meanings of
    many words in English, evolved and changed.
    
    					andrew

    
    .19
    
    yep, thats definitely a Franco - Norman view of courtship,
    whereas in more practical spots like the Pale courtship 
    allowed the families to get aquainted and to find out what
    economic benefits existed to be shared.. these things are 
    buisness partnerships in most of the world and sometimes,
    political alliances as well.
    
    this is not as softheaded an approach as it may seem, especially
    when important assets weigh in the balance..

    Courting is beautiful but it can also be extremely painful,
    particularly when the relationship has not become formalized. Then, the
    more we court, the more we expose our awful vulnerability because we
    are enchanted, bewitched by someone and we don't even know where the
    balance of power is or why it's necessary.
    
    The most enduring courtship I've ever seen described is the one in
    "Love In The Time of Cholera", by Garcia Marquez. It's worth reading,
    even if it is just to cure yourself of an obssession.
    
    
    
    

    Sometimes the rejection of an imature courting partner is the most
    hurting. When you are trying to walk that fine line of trying to be
    everything right, best, and shiny. You can easily make that statement
    of, " well if she/he doesn't like me for who I am.... *^**&% them."
    But deep down inside, you work, money, and time have gone. And you
    think you have learned enough to stay away from the flaky ones, but 
    one never knows about when or how they might change course on you when
    you think things are going fine. Somehow I think our society has too
    many choices and that makes for the problem of finding the bestest when
    more and better are not always the best of choice. 
    
    I have thought that waiting till one was alittle older and mature would
    cure these problems. They are always around, and never will go away. 
    Just gotta get back in the saddle and try agian.

	I remember when I was a senior in High School, I sang in a concert, 
and I got flowers from the male soloists and from my father.  That was the
happiest night of my life so far... And the last time I ever received 
flowers.  I've had boyfriends since then, but romance has drastically
changed!

	Guys, you either are the romatic type, or you aren't.  That's okay.
If you are the romantic, even if you don't have the 'funds' to be all-out-
romantic, find a way!  Some carnations, a rose from a garden, a sunset,
an "I love you" in the dark at the beach... Romance can be anything as long
as it's sincere.  If you aren't romantic, and she is, please try; it might
be awkward, but she'll be glad you tried... it'll mean the world to her!

	Some of us still wait for princes...

the great love of my life is, without doubt, the least romantic man I've
ever known...at least he was when with me.  However, as I later learned,
he was very romantic with his future-spouse.  My guess is that I was "his
girlfriend", but I was not that "love of my life"...and when he met HER,
his romantic gestures were triggered by his total infatuation with her...which,
in this case evolved into lasting love.  The key here is, INFATUATION.  We
aren't, by and large, capable of keeping infatuation going for more than a few
months max, and that is the time of romance.  Once infatuation dies, it seems
that the "courting" gestures diminish/disappear -- and that is what women
miss, that time when he was besotted with her and "could think of nothing else".
Realistically, a soul so beset would quickly lose job, friends, and 
mind if he/she didn't manage to get some relief from that infatuation pretty 
quickly....and nature provides a solution - either the infatuation becomes
a more stolid emotional committment, love, or it dies away.