Conference quark::mennotes-v1

I have *never* hit my wife, or wanted to hit her, or wanted to hurt her....

Never expect to, either....and I guess I don't understand anyone who 
would do it, so I am looking forward to other comments here....

Same goes for the kids, once they got old enough to be reasoned with, there 
is little reason to get their attention with a blow.....

    Vic

RE: .1
    
>  I have *never* hit my wife, or wanted to hit her,

I never hit my wife in 23 years of marriage, either.
And I never wanted to hit her.
            ------

BUT, I think "never wanting to hit her" was a failing 
of mine.  Never wanting to hit her meant that I never got
angry enough to want to do that.  I got angry, of course,
at a lot of things.  Sometimes I was angry at her, but 
I kept it all inside.  I had been taught from a very early
age that anger was bad, bad, bad.  And expressing anger was
worse still.

So I spent those 23 years trying to please my wife and my 
kids.  When things didn't go right, and I was disappointed,
I went off by myself and "figured out" how to avoid that
disappointment in the future.  I didn't know  how to say to
my wife, "I'm disappointed by what you did."  "I'm angered
by your attitude."  "I'm saddened that we couldn't do that."
"I'm frustrated by that happening again."

So, I don't count "not wanting to hit my wife" as any kind
of virtue.  For me, it was a sign that I had totally abdicated
the feeling side of my life.  It indicates to me (now) that 
I was a crippled person in that marriage.  When I finally got
the guts to do something about it, all I could think of doing
is getting out of the marriage.  So I did.  You see, I couldn't
begin to imagine how I could find the feelings and express the
emotions to begin to change myself and ask her to change too. 
(This was a two way street, of course -- she was also an emotional
cripple.)

I am certainly not advocating hitting anyone, wife or kids!

But, *wanting* to hit someone is healthy.  Wanting to hit someone 
is perfectly normal and can be a great signal to me that I have 
reached a limit of frustration, and that I had better do something 
about what is causing this frustration.  Wanting to hit someone
summons up a lot of energy, which can be used to resolve the
problem.

In the years since my divorce, I have been in a number of
relationships, and I am getting to the point of being able
to have my feelings and express them  in constructive ways.
There have been a couple of times when I wanted to get
physical with my partner.  I didn't, and I don't suppose I
ever would, but I have no worries about knowing that I can
be moved by my feelings to the point of wanting a physical fight.

Wil

    I've gotten terribly angry at my wife and kids.  Hitting them though
    (and I'm not including a disciplinary slap on my kids' backside) has
    never been an option I've considered.  When I get to the point that I
    have to resort to violence, I feel that I must have NO other options. 
    All my other ammunition (consultation, protest, therapy and even
    leaving) have been used up.  
    
    I don't think that anger is necessarily bad.  It's a part of the human
    experience.  However, in order for anger to be of any use, it needs to
    be appropriately directed.  We are, after all, humans with very
    powerful rational faculties.  IMHO, when we let our anger overtake our
    ability to direct it, we've lowered ourselves closer to being a mere
    animal, devoid of this marvelous rational ability.
    
    			FWIW,
    			 Ron

    
    I started a topic on this (430 I think) A while ago.
    I did so because I wondered if the subject of domestic violence
    wasn't being presented from one side only; male violence against
    women. Though very few studies have been done on domestic
    violence that includes violence against males, I did find a couple 
    and entered the data in the first few notes.
    
    On the topic, sadly, it has just happened in my family.
    A female relative just the other night goaded a male relative
    into an ugly encounter. First, she abused him verbally. He ignored
    it. After a while she became enraged and started poking him in
    the chest with her finger while continuing the verbal assault.
    He ignored it. When she still couldn't get him to back down,
    she attempted to push him. He's big and strong and the push
    backfired such that she fell backwards over a chair. At this point
    she became enraged and attacked him with her fists and feet.
    He defended himself by pushing her away, nothing more.
    Finally she stopped and left. Next thing that happens is
    a restraining order is issued against the man and they have to appear
    in court next week. The restraining order charges him with 
    physical assault, among other things.
    
    Thankfully, there exists an eye witness to corroborate the above,
    his wife. Sadly there exist two other witnesses who could also
    back him up, his children. Ironically, no matter how this all
    ends, it will simply end up being one more "reported" incidence
    of (domestic) violence against women.
    
    							Hank 

    re: .-1
    
    If I were your friend, I'd remind the wife that I can't go babysit at
    the house BECAUSE of the restraining order.  He might be well served to
    keep an eye from afar on how she's caring for the kids.  If her new
    flame is a cause for her to neglect the little ones, a visit from the
    DSS might be in order.
    
    

Some women are abused, and are done so at the whimp of a man who
needs a good swift kick in the ass..

Some women think they're abused, and really aren't, cry wolf..

Some women plain and simple, are physical and aggressive, and ask for it.
But if you lower yourself to that level, then the Man is the one
that's nailed for it...

There's no difinitive line..  Stories of the batter, meak house wife,
intermingle with the hard fact that some woman can be bast*ar*s just
as much as some men can be.  A bad attitude knows not of sex.

I guess I have a hard time understanding alot of the biases I see
towards men and women today. (Custody battles, restraining orders,
child support)  

I've never hit a women, could never bring myself to hit my wife. 
She's never raised a hand to me..  we've been married since 1977, and
started going out together in 9th grade..

She is my companion, my best friend, the only lover I ever had or
wanted. Couldn't imagine hauling off and belting her...  what kind
of man does ??  Can't imagine...

It would seem that Womyn are able to walk all over the man of their
desire,,,,  Maybe not in all cases, bu tin many that I've seen...

Myn, on the other hand, can sneeze the wrong way, and get a TRO slapped
on them


The legal system favors women, and it's most due to a history of domestic
violence cause by Myn... 

so I guess in the long run, we did it to ourselves. ??  uBut the times,
they are a changin..

A lot of the notes in this string are really insulting.  You really 
sound like you have axes to grind.

Okay, some women lie.  Okay, some men are abused by their wives.  And 
I think it's fair to say that the courts have not come into the
twentieth century as far as child custody and men's rights are
concerned. 

But do you really doubt that women are far more victimized by domestic 
violence than men?  If you do, then I think that you are kidding 
yourselves, seeing only the exceptions and not the rule.

							--Gerry

>But do you really doubt that women are far more victimized by domestic 
>violence than men?  If you do, then I think that you are kidding 
>yourselves, seeing only the exceptions and not the rule.

 That's pretty judgemental. Remember that other men's experiences do not 
necessarily reflect your own. If a man has only seen other men getting the
short end of the legal stick, it's not hard to imagine that he projects his
view to reflect that of life in general. Most everybody projects their
experiences; it's only natural. What are you supposed to do? Assume that no
one else shares your experiences?

 You are seeing alot of hurt beiung expressed here. There are very few socially
acceptable places where men can discuss the things that bother them and attempt 
to heal from their hurts by discussing them. It appears to me that you are
attempting to quiet these men because they are saying things you do not want
to hear. What you see as being insulting, I see as being a beginning in getting
to a resolution of the underlying causes of these feelings. Reconciliation
of feelings cannot occur when said feelings are suppressed. Stop shushing
people, please. Of course some of the comments hurt to hear; I imagine they
hurt to feel even more.

 Balance the feelings with calm and rational discussion, by all means. Just 
don't attempt to shame men into shutting up "you sound like you have axes
to grind" and don't be so judgemental. Please.

 The Doctah

    I thought the original topic (.0) was asking for
    information (maybe personal testimonials) on how
    men have overcome being abusers.  That is, 
    
        "How did you stop hitting people?"
    
    The last line or two of the base note opened the subject
    a little wider to all abusers and all victims.  We seem
    to have gotten off the subject of "how to change from 
    being an abuser" to "here's another form of abuse" or
    "I have never abused another person."
    
    I am particularly interested in the base noter's topic,
    which I would express as, "How I stopped abusing another
    person."   (I'm aware that it would take some guts to
    start talking about it in here.  But still, more revealing
    subjects have been talked about.  Perhaps it could be done
    anonymously, through the moderators.)
    
    I also wonder if there aren't some testimonials that could
    be entered from outside sources.  I would think that the
    Real Men, who are so interested in this subject, would have
    access to some information/testimonials from men that have
    given up abusing others.  
    
    The real problem is not who beats up on who, but how does
    anyone who is in a pattern of beating up on someone  STOP!
    
    Wil

>>But do you really doubt that women are far more victimized by domestic 
>>violence than men?  If you do, then I think that you are kidding 
>>yourselves, seeing only the exceptions and not the rule.
>
> That's pretty judgemental. Remember that other men's experiences do not 
>necessarily reflect your own. If a man has only seen other men getting the
>short end of the legal stick, it's not hard to imagine that he projects his
>view to reflect that of life in general. Most everybody projects their
>experiences; it's only natural. What are you supposed to do? Assume that no
>one else shares your experiences?

Yes it's judgemental.  But it's also accurate.

Had the man read a paper, gone through some schooling, or watched TV 
news sometime in the past twenty years?

I know I'm being snotty, but c'mon...

And just because he's hurt doesn't give him carte blanche to 
trivialize violence against women.  And it might be refreshing for a 
change to have a man say, "I'm feeling hurt over my unfair treatment 
in the custody battle.  I could use a hug" instead of "I know of 
several cases of women lying and isn't this crummy and [Blah]."

If someone in pain is genuine and asks for my support, I generally 
give it.  But I do not beat up on another group of people to show my 
support for someone.  Sorry.


							--Gerry

re .15

>> That's pretty judgemental. Remember that other men's experiences do not 
>>necessarily reflect your own. If a man has only seen other men getting the
>>short end of the legal stick, it's not hard to imagine that he projects his
>>view to reflect that of life in general. Most everybody projects their
>>experiences; it's only natural. What are you supposed to do? Assume that no
>>one else shares your experiences?

>Yes it's judgemental.  But it's also accurate.

Just because you said so?? How about some data? And even if you have all
the data in the world, I believe that using data to stifle someone's
feelings is inappropriate. (My turn to judge..)

>Had the man read a paper, gone through some schooling, or watched TV 
>news sometime in the past twenty years?

>I know I'm being snotty, but c'mon...

... its O.K. for you to be snotty, because you have the facts, and to hell
with anyone elses feelings? C'mon yourself!

>And just because he's hurt doesn't give him carte blanche to 
>trivialize violence against women.  And it might be refreshing for a 

I don't remember reading a reply that trivialized violence against women.

>change to have a man say, "I'm feeling hurt over my unfair treatment 
>in the custody battle.  I could use a hug" instead of "I know of 
>several cases of women lying and isn't this crummy and [Blah]."

It doesn't take much reading between the lines to feel the hurt and
frustration. And what a marvelous example you have set by saying "I'm
feeling sensitive to the violence men act out on women, because I spent the
weekend working at a battered women's shelter"? No, you just blow your nose
in our general direction. Do as you say, but not as you do?

>If someone in pain is genuine and asks for my support, I generally 
>give it.  But I do not beat up on another group of people to show my 
>support for someone.  Sorry.

So, stating that 'SOME women are lying manipulators' is beating up on the
whole group of women? That doesn't follow, in my book.

When was the last time you were in a deep enough
relationship with a women to understand the pain and frustration of
custodial 'exercises'? And from what empathy base do you come, telling us
we should suppress our feelings of anger and bitterness?

Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying - I agree that violence against
women is bad. But I can't sit still for being told that my feelings or
experiences with manipulative women are invalid. Please don't do that
again. Just because violence from men to women is bad and has been going on
for a long time is no justification for violence (mental or physical) from
women to men.

    thank you wil

    please refer to 595.14 

    Hey, Listen! for pete's sake!  The question is how did you stop
    the violence.  The reason I entered this topic in Mennotes was to
    get answers from men.  In wommannotes, the accusational atmosphere
    that I referred to is happening in this note also, exactly what
    isn't needed.  If there are persons that wish to express their
    grievences toward women or men, then please open a note pertaining
    to that.  The way that this is going so far seems to suggest that
    whoever is at end of the fist deserves it.  Please this is unfair.
    
    cin

I think that Cin has a valid point.  She asked a straightforward question,
and has not yet received a response to her question.  What she has received
is the typical defensive reactions of 1) Denial, 2) Rationalization and
3) Blaming others.

Nobody here, Cin included, has tried to deny that:

	1.  Domestic violence against males exists
	2.  Society treates males and females very differently
	    concerning issues of domestic violence

So why all the moaning and groaning?  And does the existence of the above
justify denying that domestic violence against women by men is widespread
in our society?  I don't think so.

However, I also don't think it's proper to try to stifle men's expression
of feelings here, though I do agree that much of the "unfair!" discussion
probably belongs in another note.

I agree with Wil that it would be very hard for a man to openly admit here
that he had ever committed violence against women, even if he no longer 
did so.  There's the "joke" unanswerable question "When did you stop beating
your wife?" that isn't so funny in reality.

If anyone would like to contribute anonymously, they may do so through me.
Note 1.7 contains more details.  It might also be useful, with Cin's
permission, to broaden the question to include emotional abuse.

Sadly, few who commit abuse, male or female, believe that they are an abuser.
To themselves, they have done nothing wrong.  Often, the victim agrees.  This
is part of why it's so very hard to talk about this subject rationally.

					Steve

I apologize if I hurt people's feelings here.  If men who have been 
noting here (any men, actually) are being abused in their homes, I 
hope that the abuse soon ends.  

I also believe that abuse against men needs to be talked about (I 
don't like taboos).  And I apologize if anything I said in here has 
caused guys to withdraw and to stop communicating.


							--Gerry

    
    My 2c on .0...
    
    Partnerships are frustrating.
    They can also be wonderful beyond words, but they can also be and often
    are infuriating and frustrating to the point of speechlessness.
    Even "good" partnerships.
    Every couple comes across conflict in deeply-held beliefs or habits
    sooner or later.
    I think that the "success" of a partnership depends quite a bit on
    how well the two partners can work/resolve/express those feelings.
    
    Firstly, how do you express them?
    Here I think gender roles, background, family conditioning and all
    sorts of stuff comes into play.
    If you've been conditioned not to express your feelings (and that
    can happen with either gender) then it's nigh on impossible to
    resolve the conflict because your partner is not (most likely)
    psychic and, unless you can express what troubles you in a self-aware
    and self-owning way ("I" statements rather than accusatory statments)
    then things will not get resolved fully. That can lead to
    festering resentments, tension, loss of trust, intimacy, and
    maybe eventually separation.
    
    However, in the middle of a lot of tension it's not practical to
    say to your partner "Honey - you could take a ten week course on
    self-expression to learn how to tell me this constructively. Go
    do it and then we'll talk". The emotion is *current*, and something
    has to blow. HOW you blow is dependant on lot of stuff, including
    gender and family stuff.
    
    For men, maybe the use of violence is an option nearer the top of
    the list than for women because they are physically bigger, stronger,
    and men's physical prowess is encouraged in our society.
    Also, they may be more uncomfortable with verbally expressing their
    feelings healthily than women. 
    That is not to say that I condone it, or that it's ever justified.
    What does it truly solve in terms of helping that relationship?
    It doesn't even resolve the problem at hand, and it creates a new one.
      
    Women can resort to some pretty miserable subterfuge to get their
    point across too (as George has indicted).
    Both of these ways of dealing with feelings is indirect, unhealthy,
    and isn't going to help the relationship grow. Both/either gender
    can be equally at fault. Until we learn to express feelings to
    each other in a self-aware, honest manner then this kind
    of emotional leakage into damaging action is going to continue.
    
    I would guess that if someone's been in the habit of beating up
    their partner, and they then choose to stop, it's because they've
    learned a more effective way of communicating - possibly they've
    learned a lot about themselves from another source outside the
    relationship, or have been exposed to something (a friend's
    relationship? Counselling? A life crisis?) that helps them
    to see interpersonal communication in a different way.
    
    Any ideas whether that's an accurate theory?
    
    'gail

	Yes, there are instances where men do not have it so good either.  Yes,
	women  are  all  not  saints either.  Yes, many women do have their own
	share  of  some  frequent qualities that could use a little fixing too,
	BUT...

	My reaction  to  much  of  what I've read here from a few men is "It is
	obvious  that  you  have never witnessed a shelter for battered women."
	And  seen  how  *many*  women  are battered - by their HUSBANDS, not by
	random  seedy  elements  off the streets - and how *severely* they were
	beaten,  and  for how *long* they were abused before finally getting up
	the  courage  to seek help.  They have not just seen the huge magnitude
	of  the problem.  I am amazed that every time someone mentions cases of
	husbands  beating their wives or using brutal physical violence against
	them,  that  another  man  will (always!, it never fails...) say "Well,
	women nag their husbands too much."

	Yes, nagging  from  either  a  man or women is not pleasant.  But it is
	hardly  on  the  same level as the use of physical violence, by MEN.  I
	wish nagging _was_ the most serious problem facing troubled male-female
	relationships today.

	I have  NEVER  seen  the  equivalent  of a shelter for "battered men of
	wives",  no  where  even  close.   And another part of me feels that we
	would  never  see  this,  even  IF  there  were as many men beat up and
	physically  abused  by  their  wives, we MEN wouldn't let it happen for
	OURSELVES.   "Take  it  like  a  man!", "Beat up by a GIRL, huh son??",
	"What  are  you, a WIMP?", etc, etc.  [But conversely being nagged by a
	wife  is  an  acceptable problem for a man, in my experience.  A common                                                           
	theme  in many 'male space' I've been in even since growing up as a boy
	around  older  married  men  was "So she's been nagging you, huh?? Well
	just give her a few smacks, that'll keep her in line". :-(]

	Yes, men  have  it  bad  in places too.  Yes, men's issues contain some
	critical  and unfair problems too (esp.  in court settlements).  But in
	the  most severe problem category, brutal physical violence TO women BY
	men  far  outweighs  nagging  and other problems.  Once we got that one
	licked,  I  feel  the  areas  of  unfairness to men will receive higher
	visibility  (even  though  many  men create/cause/feed the problems for
	themselves  and  scream "women are trying to change us" whenever men OR
	women  address  the  gender roles problems creating/causing/feeding the
	unfairness to men).

	-Erik

    RE: .24
    
    I agree on your analysis, 'gail, and on the probable "cure."
    
    I think some testimonials on the details of the cure would be
    useful.  How do I change my method of communication from raising
    my fist (or nagging) to something more productive and less
    harmful to my partner, myself, and our relationship?
    
    For example, I talked with a woman once who told me about how
    she was having a lot of trouble in her marriage, and she went
    to a training program called "marriage encounter" that was
    conducted by her church (Catholic).  There, she and her husband
    learned a technique of recognizing when an argument was starting,
    taking time to write down their feelings (not their gripes) 
    for fifteen minutes, then exchanged and read what they had written
    for fifteen minutes, then talk about it with a time limit of
    fifteen minutes.  This "worked" for them, and she reports that
    it was the happiest time in their marriage.  They had a technique
    for doing the communicating, it slowed them down, it was less
    explosive (you have to look at your own words on the paper),
    it focused on understanding their own feelings and then under-
    standing the other's feelings, and only then at trying to solve
    the problem of the disagreement.  (I hope I have accurately
    described it.)
    
    However, after six months or more of this, the man decided he
    no longer wanted to do it (I am stating her words on this), and
    so they stopped doing it, and a few years later they were 
    divorced.  There were lots of problems on both sides, so I'm
    not saying that the marriage encounter technique would have
    solved all the problems if they had been able to continue it,
    just that it is an example of a * technique *, that one couple
    found useful for awhile at least.
    
    I think changing from a "batterer" (whether it be with fist or
    words) to a "communicator" is VERY hard work.  It would be like
    saying I am going to write from now on with my "other" hand.
    I am certain that I could become left-handed if I needed to,
    but I know it would be very hard work.  Likewise, giving up
    being a "batterer."
    
    And doing it by myself, with no suggestions, no support and
    no forgiveness when I screw up, makes it look impossible...
    
    I think the ingredients are that you need a guide, a support
    system, an understanding that you take it one day at a time,
    an ability to forgive yourself when you fail, and you may have 
    to make some major sacrifices, like losing the very person
    with whom you are trying to correct the problem.  (Because
    the victim may be locked into being the victim as much as you
    are locked into being the batterer.  For you to give up being
    the batterer and  become a communicator means that the victim
    may have to change as well.  And the victim may have just as
    hard a time changing from victim to communicator...)
    
    Wil
       

    The method I try to teach my daughters is "Don't put up with ANY
    physical violence, period. If any man EVER hits you, get rid of him
    immediately." This attitude gets a lot of support in their elementary
    schools, where abuse is a big issue, like drugs. I think that the fact
    that the girls radiate this attitude will be an effective preventive.
    
    The corollary (this may be much harder) is that they should carefully
    avoid ever being so dependent that they cannot dispense with the
    bastard. In particular, they should be prepared to support themselves.
    The great complication is children: how can I take care of my babies
    and go to work too? I hope I'll always be there for them, in that
    eventuality. How about "abusive husband insurance" -- if he's convicted
    of abuse, you get a stipend from Mutual of Omaha?
    
    I'm reminded of an interesting result of the Negative Income Tax
    experiments of the 1970's. This was a Milton Friedman idea, that the
    poor would work their way OUT of poverty if welfare was structured such
    that they retained MORE of each additional dollar earned (the present
    system cuts benefits sharply at a certain income level, creating a huge
    disincentive). One implication of the NIT is a LOT MORE MONEY: the
    government has to kick in a lot more subsidy, to make a gradual path
    from no cash to self-supporting. The interesting result was that the
    divorce rate soarred. Conservatives saw this as death for NIT: marriage
    is sacrosanct, after all. I tend to believe that the extra divorces
    were all to the good: women who'd been putting up with bastards (e.g.
    abusers) could finally afford to give their men the boot. IF YOU WANT
    TO REDUCE WIFE-BEATING, MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR WOMEN TO LEAVE THEIR MEN
    AND STILL FEED THEIR BABIES.
    
    - Hoyt              

    	There are two discussions here.  One is about actual domestic
    violence.  The other is about the technique that lawyers use to play
    for position in divorce/custody cases in the name of "representing
    their client as well as possible".
    	The second one involves accusing the husband of domestic violence,
    then later sexually abusing the children.  In both cases instead of
    being an equal party in a civil action, the husband is a criminal
    defendant.  He also is in the position of being hit from left field. 
    The technique is very effective in catching the husband off balance. 
    Although it may be illegal there is nothing that can be done about it
    because the only evidence is a priveledged communication between the
    wife and the lawyer.  The likelihood is high that a judge will convict
    the husband of domestic violence is very high because he doesn't want
    to take a chance of being wrong and having the wife actually get hurt. 
    Even if he perceives the wife to be at fault, the judge may find the
    husband guilty because it is the only action that he can take to defuse
    an explosive situation.  (The chance of a conviction on the sexual
    abuse charge is much lower, but the demoralizing impact on the husband
    can be a major factor in the results of the divorce.)  The husband also
    gets screwed with the legal bill for the whole game.
    						John
    

Note 430 in this conference also has the title "Domestic Violence" and discusses
many of the same issues brought up by some in this note.  I'd like to ask
that people move the general subject of "how men get wrongly accused", etc.,
to note 430 and to leave this note for discussion of how an abuser (of either
gender) can learn how to stop their abuse.  We've had some excellent
contributions so far, and I'd hate to see them get buried by the
other, more emotionally charged, discussion.

				Steve

    
    >I think some testimonials on the details of the cure would be
    >useful.  How do I change my method of communication from raising
    >my fist (or nagging) to something more productive and less
    >harmful to my partner, myself, and our relationship?
    
    Wil - a really good question!
    
    This note gets a little long, so here's the gist of it...
    
    * If you're being abused, get out
    * Work on your self - you are not responsible for your partner's
      problems, and you *cannot make them change*
    * Make yourself and your happiness your first priority
    * If your partner shows signs of wanting to change provide any
      support or info you want to or can, but don't move back in
    * If you decide to work on the relationship go slowly....talk a lot....
     
    
    
    My own experience is that learning to communicate in an honest
    and self-responsible way involved a MASSIVE shift in my whole
    view of the world.
    It brought me up against heavy personal stuff which I'd rather
    have run from - family stuff, conditioning stuff, self-esteem -
    and it was a long hard journey to take.
    *No way can you "force" another person to embark on this unless
    they want to*.
    
    How do you get someone to want to do this?
    Many people seem to have an *enormous* resistance to starting
    to work on themselves - unless something comes up that makes
    it IMPOSSIBLE for them *not* to learn then I suspect that
    most of us will just leave it be (I certainly avoided it for
    as long as possible). That's why I suspect that it takes a
    life-crisis or a big shock/change to provoke a recovery.
    
    For some, maybe the shock of impending divorce would do it.
    Maybe even that will not affect some people.
    *You cannot make your own happiness dependant on someone else choosing
    to change their behaviour. You have to do it for yourself*
    
    I don't think that insisting that someone goes to counselling
    will help. Need to change has to come from within. If someone decides to
    go *themselves* counselling can be invaluable.
    Support is also needed (personally I found this in Notes), and
    if possible being around people who support the new behaviours
    (maybe members of a counselling group?)
    
    For me, it happened like this....
    
    - a couple of "mind bending" courses DEC sent me on
      (outward bound, Understand your Potential....these both delve into
       personal things and make you stretch your boundaries)
    
    - realising that I wasn't happy
    
    - research...reading a lot, learning about codependancy and
      self-responsibility
    
    - changing my attitude towards me especially around setting
      personal boundaries about what behaviour I would/wouldn't
      tolerate towards myself
    
    - communicating those boundaries to my partner, and explaining
      what self-responsible language was and why I was using it
     (and encouraging him to do likewise)
    
    - looking after myself as my main priority
    
    - enforcing my boundaries, to the point of leaving
    
    Up till this point the message hadn't really got through.
    My leaving seems to have produced the necessary "shock" and
    he's started using communication tools to work on issues.
    He says that this has changed all aspects of his life, and he
    is working on himself in many ways now. I support him, lend
    him books, give him information about support groups when he
    asks for them, and I try and set a "good example" by looking
    after myself.
    
    I was not being battered, btw - I was subjected to ongoing
    verbal abuse with the occasional threat of violence.
    I have in the past been physically abused (seems that some women
    have a pattern of choosing abusive partners ongoingly for
    codependant/complex reasons). 
                                  
    'gail
    
    
    
    
    
    

    RE .30
    
    >(seems that some women have a pattern of choosing abusive partners 
    >ongoingly for codependant/complex reasons). 
    
    
    This is also my observation. Many women I see that are in abusive
    situations, go from one bad/abusive situation to another. Many of these
    women take the doormat posture. This posture seems (IMHO) to attract
    the domineering male type who many (not all) times can be abusive. It
    is probably low self-esteem on the girl/womans part. 
    	In school many of these women that I later saw in these abusive
    situations were the ones attracted to the jocks or 'beautiful people'.
    They went for glamour and flash over substance. This 'worshiping' sorta
    situations tends to lend itself very easily to abuse or domineering, or
    neglect.
    
    My observations
    Steve
    
    
    
    
    

    A good friend, who is a big guy known for being a demanding,
    confrontive guy at work (but who has never hit a woman, and 
    is in a very happy marriage as far as I can tell) told
    me that he and his wife were in a group one time that was 
    talking about abuse in families.  Later, he asked his wife 
    what she would do if he ever hit her.  He says her instant
    reply was, "I'd leave you."  "You mean after I hit you once?"
    "Yep, it would only take one tap and I'd be gone."  He admires 
    her for that.
    
    As for getting help from a "guide", and support from a group,
    I think the Alcoholics Anonymous model is ideal.  
    
    In AA, if you live anywhere
    near a big city, you can find an AA meeting on any day of the
    week.  So support from people who know exactly what you are
    wrestling with is there as often as you want it.  Furthermore,
    you often have a buddy, who has been in the program for a few
    years, who volunteers to be "on call" 24 hours a day, and who
    will help you over the rough spots.
    
    I believe there are such support groups for batterers and there
    certainly are lots of groups for people in co-dependent situations.
    "Codependence" is a broad description for people who are locked into 
    relationships that are unhealthy (for both).
    
    I can't imagine trying to make the change without a buddy and
    a support group.  (and the partner who you are battering can't
    be the buddy)
    
    Wil

    
    RE last
    
    You're right Wil - there are AA groups and where they are are
    AcoA groups. AS I understand it, AA is for alcoholics and ACoA
    is for those involved with alcoholics (children, spouses, friends)
    and therefore tends to deal with codependancy issues.
    
    CoD seems to be a new name for a very old and widespread problem.
    There are CoD support groups, which grew from ACoA and are
    based around the same "Twelve-Step" model.
    
    Re my last note.
    I just remembered that the basenote asked for ideas for batterers
    rather than victims....8-}
    
    - Decide that you *really* want to change
    - Tell your victim, and maybe move out (it can be hard to change
      in the same environment)
    - Get along to a CoD meeting (or ACoA)
    - If you wish, support your victim in their changes.
      They chose you as a partner because, in some way, they needed
      your mistreatment. The whole basis of your relationship will
      change, over time, if you get "clear",and they will have to change 
      too....
    
    (...just like what someone said in this string about their wife
    having to face her own problems once he spent more time with her).
    
    Just my view.
    'gail

I've changed the title of the base note to more closely reflect the topic
under discussion.  The previous title was "Domestic Violence".  Note 430
discusses domestic violence in general.

					Steve

    I can not speak from the abusers viewpoint.
    
    I was abused in my first marriage.
    
    It only ended when we separated.  If I had not been much bigger and
    stronger the her, she would have done more than leave a few small 
    physical scars.  She has not changed that I can see (in over 8 years)
    Our children are now coming to live with me for these reasons as well
    as others.
    
    I have reason to believe that she was seriously contemplating murder 
    when we separated.  The ONLY way I know of to make it stop is to get
    out.  The only way I know of to keep it from happening again is to
    learn why I picked the kinds of women I did and to learn to avoid them
    (I almost made it this time, at least I am not being physically or
    mentally abused (but that is another story)).
    
    From what I know and can understand about my first wife, whe still
    believes that it was ALL my fault.  That she is right and that I
    "deserved" to be punished.  A third party says that she is a sociopath
    and needs extensive therapy in order to have any chance of a normal,
    happy life.  I doubt she will ever seek help 8-{ .
    
    I wish I could offer more insight, but that's preety much it.
    jimc  

    
    	Ouch. Thanks for sharing that, too often people forget than men can
    	be physically abused by women too.
    
    	Leaving seems to be the only way to get out of those situations.
    	One would think that having a SO leave you would be reason enough
    	to make you think that perhaps you need some help. It's sad that
    	she still doesn't realize that it is _her_ problem, and stop
    	putting it on to you.
    
    	That took courage to enter that here since many men feel "what it
    	means to be a man" is to take anything a woman could give us
    	physically. Glad you not only had the courage to protect yourself 
    	and leave, but to face any men who may feel that way too.
    
    	Sorry you had to experience that... my felings go out to you.
    
    	-Erik
    

    	There is an interesting article in this month's American
    Psychological Association "Monitor".  The title is something like
    mandatory arrest and mediation laws backfire.  They mention that in
    Oregon after a mandatory arrest law for abuse was passed 50% of the
    arrested were women.  The article also mentions that fewer women were
    getting full physical custody due to arrests for abuse, and that 
    mediation resulted in fewer women getting custody than did from court 
    procedings.
    	Most of the results were generalized and statistical.  The one
    anecdote was about a man who scratched his nose during mediation as a
    signal to his wife that he would abuse her if she didn't make things go
    his way.
    
    My opinion:
    	The title mentioning "backfire" shows that these laws were not
    intended to produce fair results.  They were intended to give women an
    unequal advantage.  
    	The statistic of 50% seems to indicate that the laws previously had
    been enforced discriminatorily.  If a male were the abuser there would
    be action taken.  If a woman were the abuser, no action would be taken. 
    The indication seems to be that (at least in Oregon) both sexes are
    equally responsible for abuse. 
    	              				John
    (anyone has my permission to repost this)
    

    In Washington state we have the "Combative Partner Law".  I've talked
    about this somewhere else in this file.  If a man turns abusive and
    starts hitting the woman, and she starts hitting back, they are both
    arrested.
    
    This also works in favor of the man.  If he is being hit by the woman
    and is not hitting back, she will be arrested and prosecuted.
    
    The application of the laws are quite fair in this state.
    
    Karen

 My impression exactly. The law expects you to not fight back and hope
you survive so you can avoid jail. Brilliant concept.