Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    	<I have to run to a meeting, will finish and put something here when
    	I get back>  -Erik

Re:<<< Note 513.0 by CYCLST::DEBRIAE "To Report ALL Hate Crimes Dial: 1-800-347-HATE" >>>

>	admitted  action  of  sexual  harassment  of  the  part of one of their
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	I don't believe anyone has publicly admitted to anything.  
	Allegations have been made - and actions taken privately with
	the team's organization - but I'm not aware of any public
	admissions of guilt...

	Bob

   I can  relate  to  the  experience  of  men  selling out other men.  I have
   witnessed it with myself and other men in many ways.  From seeing men being
   sold  out by a best friend in order to win over a prior girlfriend they had
   in  common,  to  being not picked for the best athletic team for 'feminine'
   behavior,  to  being  not selected for a group or fraternity where only men
   who  are  REAL MEN (tm) and who only do things the REAL MAN way are allowed
   to  join,  to  seeing men reinforce the very unfair and ridiculous parts of
   male  gender  roles  onto  other  men.   I should say ESPECIALLY that.  Men
   saying that men have to be X, men have to be Z.

   I personally  felt  sold  out  by  men  in the 511.* discussion, which is a
   recent  example.   I  personally  felt sold out because men were once again
   giving  the  image  that  men's  issues  are  really  just  all about being
   anti-women.   WRONG! [There are ways men have it worse than women and women
   have  it  easier  than  men,  but changing this is NOT done by enforcing or
   belittling  the  cases where women have it worse than us men.  Sometimes it
   feels  like  you need a hammer to get it thru some men's heads that women's
   issues  HELPS  erode  our  *own*  unfair  treatment and the causes of men's
   issues as a whole].

   Robert Bly speaks about men beating up on other men.  Especially of the son
   beating  up  on the father and other older men.  I thought his descriptions
   of  this were very insightful and very helpful, even though the more I read
   from  Bly  the  more  I  tend to disagree with him on the causes and issues
   behind his accurate descriptions of male behavior.

   Men lash  out at their fathers and other men because it's MALE COMPETITION.
   We  compete with other men because we [are suppossed to / have been brought
   up, by our very own fathers, to) enjoy it.  The reason many men do not lash
   out  at  their  mothers  or women is, I feel, that men do not consider them
   good  competition.   "They're  just  girls.   What's the point in asserting
   yourself  over  a girl? It's the captain of the football team I want to be,
   not the leader of a girl's game". 

   I see the attitude often.  I was brought up with it.  Compete with the men,
   not  the girls.  Be nice to girls, you can display emotion in front of them
   (they're only women), but don't let your guard down or appear weak in front
   of  other guys.  Always tough with the guys.  Hey, we guys like that stuff,
   right?  A  solid  punch in the arm.  A string of obscenities to show I care
   for  you,  um,  like  you, um, like being with you, um, think you're a real
   dude there guy.  <punch>

   Isn't that  the writing on the wall - that men cannot [bad word choice, are
   not  ALLOWED  to]  have  close relationships with each other.  That to your
   best  friend  in  the world you can only give a punch to the arm.  That you
   can never say anything emotional.  That you have to stay between the strict
   lines  of  acting  'like  a  MAN'.   God  forbid if you should do something
   considered  'feminine'  like show emotion or something untough [as if women
   own  emotions  and  people in general don't].  God forbid if you gave *one*
   hug to your best male friend.  God forbid if the other guys on the team see
   that.   After  all,  MEN  don't  display emotion.  Only GIRLS do that sissy
   stuff.   And  that  male training doesn't stop upon leaving high school.  I
   don't think it ever stops for a lot of men. 

   THIS is  men  selling  out  other  men.  Forcing other men to obey the same
   stupid  gender  roles  and make then act the way men are 'supposed' to act.
   "We  men, we're supposed like this stuff, right??" And unlike Bly, I do not
   blame  this  on  the mothers.  My mother never taught me this stuff.  Women
   never taught me this stuff.  If anything they tried to *discourage* it.  It
   came  from  other  men.  It came from 'male' environments like football and
   the military.  It came from other men who sold me out to their own identity
   fears.  It came from other men who sold me out to having to act like a REAL
   MAN  instead  of  like  a  person.  SOLD OUT to out-dated ridiculous gender
   roles and social images.

   THIS is  men  selling out other men...  and it has nothing to do with women
   and the women's movement.  We are our own worst enemy.

	-Erik

    Let me give you an example, with a preface, and, try to tell you why I
    sold out other men (note past tense).

    I was raised in the D-E-E-P south.  That is my heritage, I don't
    apologize for it, it's the way that I was raised, and, to quote what
    used to be a favorite ... "I am a product of my environment".

    This environment (that I was raised in) taught me to respect and admire
    women...they were put on a pedestal.  This is hard to explain, but, you
    have to imagine the classical Texas dirt-farmer family atmosphere.  My
    father would have slapped the hell out of me if I didn't open the door
    for a female...did not let her enter the room first...did not stand
    when a female entered the room...did not take off my hat when talking
    to a female...etc...(and, for the hell of it, I STILL do those things
    to this day).

    When a female said "that man insulted me!" I immediately sided (note
    use of past tense) with the female!  A female was the belle of the
    south and to disagree with a female was sudden death at the hand of my
    father!  Yes, I sold out other men, but, don't fault me for it.

    To this day there is a side of me which twinges when a female says
    something derogatory about another male ... I can "feel" my father
    staring down from heaven...I want desperately to immediately pounce on
    the guy that "wronged" the female, but, I'm much more open minded these
    days and try to weigh the facts before "selling out other men".

    Even with my daughters, if they say that male "wronged" her I try to
    say "...OK...tell me about it" and have them look at both sides of the
    issue.

    No, Mike, I didn't sell out other men for the sake of sexual favors, it
    was because it was the right thing to do - period.

    Jerry

    "Men selling out other men"? We ought to be a bit more specific. I
    don't feel that acting against detestable actions has anything sneaky
    in it; if someone -men or women- does anything that is far beyond the
    edge, he deserves being unmasked... If a man is harrassing a woman, or
    looking down at someone because of his skin's colour, hell, you can bet
    I'll intervene, that's not selling out, it's just behaving
    ethically...
    But .4 has a very good point... does seducing someone else's woman fall
    under "selling out"? Or already giving your best at the job, for you
    know that that could put a shadow on another guy's performance?
    Hey, we're in a competitive world, and if I want something, I'll try to
    get it. That's not selling out someone, it's just trying to get what I
    want in life. Sometimes I'll win, and sometimes I'll lose. If I'd love a
    woman and she'd be someone else's wife, look, if I think I'm the better
    man and I can give more to her, I'll darn well fight for her. May the
    better man win. 
    As long as the methods used in this competition are fair, I don't think
    there's anything wrong in it, for it gives us a chance to progress in
    our lives.
    As for being sold out by the behaviour that is "dictated" upon
    us...well, it's up to us to break these chains. If I see that someone's
    capability to communicate with me is limited to punching my arm after
    drinking a couple of beers and mumbling some dirty jokes, I'd be a fool
    to include him among my friends. If I can't be REAL, and I can say what
    I feel at a given moment, then I'm obviously not among friends. It's a
    waste to spend time with people that can't accept you the way you are
    or stand in the way of your personal development by expecting you to
    play a certain role. 
    Seriously, I despise men that behave like troglodites and think that
    being "tough" is a great quality, for I'm convinced that it takes a lot
    more of toughness to be aware and cope with your real feelings in life
    rather than suppress them. But, I don't feel "sold out" by them, for
    it's their own life, and as long as they don't get into my way I'll
    ignore people that don't suit me.
    But if someone else condemns me for some other men's primitive
    behaviour, well, it's a sort of person I'd try to avoid, too. If someone
    doesn't accept me for the individual I am and judges me just for being
    a "man"...bad for him or her.
    Let's face it: who's to blame if we aren't self-assured enough to
    ignore what other people expect us to be or to jump over cheap
    bevavioural clich�s we loath? Is it the others, or is it us for being
    too afraid of falling off by "being different"? That's the road to
    mediocrity!
    It comes down to the fact that, more often than not, we sell out
    ourselves, just by trying to suppress the feelings we think we ain't
    supposed to feel, by being afraid of not fulfilling "our role"...by not
    sticking to ourselves, all in all.
    Learn to be yourself and you'll find out that you'll suddenly have a
    lot less to blame other people for.
    ...Paul

    II think the issue of men selling out other men is actually part
    of a bigger issue - society selling out men.  
    
    Our society seems to believe everyone has a "male bashing license,"
    including women and other men.
    
    If a man says he thinks we should withhold judgement on another
    man or men, concerning some outrageous activity involving a woman, 
    until all the facts are in,  the man is set upon by an outraged horde 
    insisting the suggester must, obviously, be insensitive to woman
    and in favor of the outrageous activity.
    
    Males are the "heavies" in our society and, until that changes,
    men will continue to be the real second class citizens.
    
    Women, blacks, physically challenged people and other groups have generally
    done a good job of working together to support each other and force
    society to stop purposeful harassment and get laws written to protect
    their rights as groups with certain similar needs.  Men have not done 
    the same.
    
    As a result we have some of the strange notes in this file, where
    women openly sexually harass men, with unjustified accusations (being
    in favor of sexual harassment, being insensitive to rape) and other
    males actually jump in to support the sexual harassment by the female.
    My suspicion is that if there's a file like this for women, as an
    example, men would either not get into it or  - if they did - any unfounded
    accusation against a woman's attitudes or feelings would be defended
    by other women.
    
    Until men get together to insist that receive rights as men, until
    they begin to recognize the patterns of male bashing society has
    found to be acceptable, the societal assumption that "male bashing" 
    is acceptable behavior will continue, and men continue to fail to
    support each other.
    
    Some of the things I think we can start to do to protect ourselves:
    
    Let any users of this notesfile know that male bashing is unacceptable
    behavior.  Male bashing includes falsely accusing males of lack
    of feelings and lack of sensitivity.
    
    Find someway to lock women out of this Notesfile.
    
    Lobby with our government to create an equitable draft system, so
    that young females as well as young males get registered for the
    draft.
    
    Buy Remington products - to help the problem caused to this company
    by N.O.W. who have, without trial, found the Patriots, its owner
    and his company guilty of sexual harassment.
    
    Support other males when they are found guilty of harassment or
    anything else, without a trial.
    
    Point out to other noters (male and female) when they are engaged
    in male bashing, and let them know that male bashing licenses are
    no good, at least in this notes file.
    
    Let your legislators know that you want laws to protect male parents
    during divorce, so that male parents can more equitably gain custody
    of their children, and so that divorced males are just as likely
    to get alimony had divorced females.
    
    I'm sure there are hundreds of ideas of how men could get together
    and protect themselves and begin to end societal beliefs that male
    bashing is an acceptable behavior.
    

Re: .9

>    Let any users of this notesfile know that male bashing is unacceptable
>    behavior.  Male bashing includes falsely accusing males of lack
>    of feelings and lack of sensitivity.

Male bashing as well as female bashing is unacceptable.  But I haven't seen
much at all of the former here.  Some men seem to interpret accusations aimed
at specific men as being "male bashing".  I don't.  I think that it is
unrealistic to pretend that inappropriate behavior in males doesn't exist.
    
>    Find someway to lock women out of this Notesfile.
 
Absolutely no way.  See note 1.18.   


				Steve

 AMANN-

 You raise some valid points but you use such a broad brush that they are
often invalidated by your own statements.

 Some of the things I agreed with:

"Our society seems to believe everyone has a 'male bashing license,'"

 Especially white males.

"Males are the "heavies" in our society"

"    Women, blacks, physically challenged people and other groups have generally
    done a good job of working together to support each other and force
    society to stop purposeful harassment and get laws written to protect
    their rights as groups with certain similar needs.  Men have not done 
    the same."

"    Lobby with our government to create an equitable draft system, so
    that young females as well as young males get registered for the
    draft."

>    Let your legislators know that you want laws to protect male parents
    during divorce, so that male parents can more equitably gain custody
    of their children, and so that divorced males are just as likely
    to get alimony had divorced females."

 Some of the things I disagreed with:

"    If a man says he thinks we should withhold judgement on another
    man or men, concerning some outrageous activity involving a woman, 
    until all the facts are in,  the man is set upon by an outraged horde 
    insisting the suggester must, obviously, be insensitive to woman
    and in favor of the outrageous activity."

 The situation at hand does not follow this, unless you are looking for an
excuse to exhonerate Zeke Mowatt. There were certainly enough facts available
for 25� to convince a reasonable person that inappropriate behavior had
occurred. I am of the feeling that when a number of people tell me "I saw
person X kill person Y," and person X has a smoking gun in his hand, and I
see person Y dead on the ground, and person X admits to shooting the gun, that
the chances are that person X killed person Y. How many more facts do you need?

>    As a result we have some of the strange notes in this file, where
>    women openly sexually harass men, with unjustified accusations 

 I completely disagree with this characterization and I can't believe you have
the guts to say this. We are talking about a situation where the people aren't
even in the same room, and you call THAT open sexual harassment. Yet when a 
woman gets genitals waved in her face, and sexually lewd taunts from a group
of large men, you want to wait for more evidence?!!! I cannot help but think 
a double standard is in effect.

>    Find someway to lock women out of this Notesfile.

 Dumb idea, and against company policy.

>    Buy Remington products - to help the problem caused to this company
>    by N.O.W. who have, without trial, found the Patriots, its owner
>    and his company guilty of sexual harassment.

 No way! Kiam's problems are caused by his boneheadedness. Let him suffer.

 The Doctah

    RE .9
    
    >My suspicion is that if there's a file like this for women, as an
    >example, men would either not get into it or  - if they did - 
    
    There is a "file" (conference, actually) like this for wmn....
    It's called Womannotes (or =wn= for short).
    It's on MOMCAT::WOMANNOTES-V3 and you're welcome to join.
    As all men are.
                                                                   
    >any unfounded accusation against a woman's attitudes or feelings would 
    >be defended by other women.                                               
    
    I can only hope that any unfounded accusation against anyone would be
    defended by others until that accusation is substantiated. Innocent
    until proven guilty and all that.
    
   F.y.i., you may be interested to read =wn= and see how many of the men there
    defend unfounded accusations against wmn......
    
    'gail
    
    

As moderator:

Sexual harassment is against company policy.  If anyone feels that he 
or she is being sexually harassed in this file, then please let one of 
the moderators know.

Thanks.


							--Gerry

    
    Re -1
    
    Ger, have I missed a link somewhere?
    I don't see how .12 and .13 string together here, and I was feeling a
    little concerned seeing as I wrote .12.....
    
    'gail
    

Don't get paranoid, folks.   ;-)

My reply is in response to this from .9:

>    As a result we have some of the strange notes in this file, where
>    women openly sexually harass men...

Let us moderators know about it, and we will evaluate and take care of 
it.  None of us support the sexual harassment of men in this file.


							--Gerry

    
    Re -1
    
    Right Ger.
    Couldn't agree with you more.
    'gail
    
    
    

    Amann:
    
    >Our society seems to believe everyone has a "male bashing license,"
    >including women and other men.    
    
    Your arguments to date don't prove your thesis, as they seem to be
    based on assumptions about sexist, anti-male conflicts.
    
    My perception of these files is that male-bashing is strongly resisted
    both here and in Womannotes-V3. It does not prevent anyone from doing 
    that, but this is an opinion file, and everyone is entitled to express
    what they want, within P&P limits.
    
    >Until men get together to insist that receive rights as men
    
    We have rights as men.
     
    I see no societal assumption that male-bashing is acceptable.
    
    -roger
    
    
    I don't think that generalized accusations hurled
                                       

RE: .9 by ISLNDS::AMANN

   Sometimes you  express  men's  issues so beautifully and include such clear
   examples,  it's  a  shame that other parts of it seem tainted with contempt
   for women.  A real shame.
 
> Our society seems to believe everyone has a "male bashing license,"
> including women and other men.

   No, not  everyone.  Do lots of people do it, yes.  I'm curious to hear what
   you would consider to be male bashing though...
    
> If a man says he thinks we should withhold judgement on another
> man or men, concerning some outrageous activity involving a woman, 
> until all the facts are in,  the man is set upon by an outraged horde 
> insisting the suggester must, obviously, be insensitive to woman
> and in favor of the outrageous activity.
 
   Obviously not.   It's  all  in  the  way  he says it.  It is the difference
   between  saying  "What are the facts of the case? Were there any witnesses?
   Etc," and between "There go those lying women again.  I don't care how many
   men  saw  it.   Those  men are just selling us REAL MEN out for sex anyway.
   Women shouldn't be in football lockerrooms in the first place so it doesn't
   matter  what  they  did  to  her.   Support Kiam, support men against lying
   women, buy Remington products!!" 

   It's a   unsubtle   and  big  difference!  One  style  displays  desire  to
   investigate  the  full  story  about  what happened, and the other displays
   contempt  for  women  as  a  whole.   It is possible to support men without
   taking away anything from women you know.  REPEAT: Men's issues has nothing
   to  do  with being opposed to the rights of women.  It has everything to do
   with  giving  ourseleves  our  rights.   Men are mostly the judges, men are
   mostly the military, men are mostly the male environmemts.  We can give our
   freedoms  to  ourselves,  REAL  EASY.  [Or could you paint a picture of men
   under siege purely from women? I can't.]

> Males are the "heavies" in our society and, until that changes,
> men will continue to be the real second class citizens.

   Yes.  And until MEN wake up and realize it nothing will happen.  Right now,
   men  *boast*  about the situations where they are the 'heavies'.  They like
   it.   "We're REAL MEN, right guys? We like this stuff! We're tough.  TOUGH!
   Arruu-gahhh!  Being  anything  different would be like being a woman.  It's
   being  feminine."  WRONG! WRONG! [This is something Bly is at fault for too
   and  it  makes  me angry seeing it come from him.  But I'll to go into that
   another time...].

> Let your legislators know that you want laws to protect male parents
> during divorce, so that male parents can more equitably gain custody
> of their children, and so that divorced males are just as likely
> to get alimony had divorced females.
> 
> I'm sure there are hundreds of ideas of how men could get together
> and protect themselves and begin to end societal beliefs that male
> bashing is an acceptable behavior.
>
> Women, blacks, physically challenged people and other groups have generally
> done a good job of working together to support each other and force
> society to stop purposeful harassment and get laws written to protect
> their rights as groups with certain similar needs.  Men have not done 
> the same.

   Wonderful.  Beautifully  put  into  words.   This  is  the  basis for men's
   issues.   We  need  to  do  this  just like the other groups.  The criticsm
   sometimes  comes  from the women's movement that we expect them to liberate
   men  for  us.   They already have enough to work on, that we need to handle
   our  own issues.  We're big boys on our side.  Let's take care of ourselves
   the way women and other minorities are doing it too.
 
   AND we  can do it without being against women's issues.  [In fact we can do
   it  BEST  along  with and beside women's issues].  REPEAT: Men's issues has
   nothing to do with being opposed to the rights of women.  It has everything
   to do with giving ourseleves our rights.
  
> As a result we have some of the strange notes in this file, where
> women openly sexually harass men,

   I haven't  heard  this.   Please fill us in on the details.  [PS- how would
   you  feel  if  I said "Yeah right, you lying men always make up these false
   accusations of returned sexual harassment.  I know of NUMEROUS cases."]

> My suspicion is that if there's a file like this for women, as an
> example, men would either not get into it or  - if they did - any unfounded
> accusation against a woman's attitudes or feelings would be defended
> by other women.
 
   Yes, men  DO  go  into  it.   Imagine!  *Some*  men feel comfortable in the
   company and environment of women.  Shocker, huh? :-0

   Don't just  theorize  about how bad women supposedly are, go ahead, try it.
   Go  into  WOMENNOTES and accuse someone like an ex-wife of mistreating your
   child  in  a  note  there.   Accuse  something like leaving your 2 year old
   infant  to  play  in the street.  Why not have male and female Boston Globe
   reporters  break a story on it too, saying they witnessed it as well.  Tell
   us  how  many  women  [there's  no  trial,  right?] leap in defense of this
   mother, OK? Tell us what you find.
   
> Until men get together to insist that receive rights as men, until
> they begin to recognize the patterns of male bashing society has
> found to be acceptable, the societal assumption that "male bashing" 
> is acceptable behavior will continue, and men continue to fail to
> support each other.
 
   I would be in agreement here except that I feel a hidden 'against women' at
   the  end  of  that  last  sentence...  and your following sentence hints my
   suspicion:

> Support other males when they are found guilty of harassment or
> anything else, without a trial.

   Ridiculous.  How  about  supporting the women too? Or is this your "the men
   are  always  right,  the  women  always  lie"  sentiment  again?? It sounds
   dangerously close to internal misogyny to me.
    
> Find someway to lock women out of this Notesfile.

   And that  just  about  speaks  loudly enough for itself.  Got some news for
   you.   Even if you locked out ALL the women from the rest of your life, you
   still  won't  be  able  to  say  insensitive things toward women as a whole
   without  being  called on it.  It ain't like the old Archie Bunker days any
   more,  there  are  too many men who 'get it' nowadays.  A man of quality is
   not threatened by a woman seeking equality.  Being a feminist does not mean
   being  anti-male...   and being a men's issues activist does NOT mean being
   anti-female.

   I thought social activists covered all this groundwork *years* ago.  :-(

   -Erik

    
    I love 511.0's concept of men selling out other men. It fits the way I
    often feel perfectly. I felt it again this weekend while watching the
    Patriots game. 
    
    As Lisa Olsen walked off the field, a bunch of male yahoo's and clods
    screamed all sorts of lovely things at her. "You f*cking *itch!" was
    the one I most heard. They were foaming at the mouth in their violent
    behavior.
    
    And there the men were in all their splendid fashion, televised, for
    all New England to see. "But all men are not like that," I sighed.
    And once again I felt sold out by other men...
    
    -Erik

re -1

Dont feel toatly sold out. The game was BLACKED-OUT in the local
viewing area and therefore was not seen by all of New England.

        This is a *classic* case of male-bashing.
    
	I just  read  this  in  WOMANNOTES,  and it hit me as yet again another
	example  of  men  not allowing other men to be free of social pressures
	and roles, and of men selling out other men to their own shackles.

	I think  it  is  also  an  excellent  example  of  male-bashing,  which
	ISLNDS::AMANN accurately commented on happening so often in .9.

>    I don't know if this is sexist, but it bothered me.  Budweiser has
>    a radio ad out in which a group of women are talking about another
>    woman and her boyfriend and saying things like, "Do you notice how
>    _Evan_ brings her flowers?  Did you notice how Evan isn't afraid
>    to hold hands in public?"  Then they start saying to their boyfriends
>    "Why can't you be more like Evan?"  A voice comes in and says "Why
>    ask why, drink Budweiser Dry."  Then a tough male voice says, "Hey
>    Evan buddy, come over here."  Noises of punching.  Same tough voice
>    says, "Who says men can't cry?  heh, heh, heh".  Do they really
>    need to use violence to promote their beer?
       
	Yup, Budweiser,  that's  the way a REAL MAN is supposed to act alright.
	Thanks  for adding to men selling out other men...  and maintaining the
	pressure  for men to conform to the images and rules of what a REAL MAN
	has  to  be.   The  clear  message  was...  don't be an Evan.  REAL MEN
	aren't like Evan, in fact they are supposed to BASH men like that.  Two
	guesses for which beer I'll be avoiding...

	-Erik

    .18 and .21
    
    Erik,  I agree with just about everything you say here about the ways
    in which men sell out (and don't sell out) other men.  You got a lot of
    good insights.  Getting men to stop selling out other men really isn't
    driven by/for/against the women's movement or women's rights.  It has
    to do with men supporting men, helping men be themselves and feeling
    free/safe to express their true selves, as opposed to fitting into any 
    pre-ordained roles that men are supposed to jump into, or into any
    pre-ordained expectations that men are supposed to live up to. 
    Men supporting men is not an anti-female thing, I agree.
    
    However, I didn't really understand why you think the work Robert Bly
    is doing with men is at odds with many of the good points you bring up. 
    I don't find that to be the case at all.  Were you saying that Bly
    means that, by being sensitive, a man is essentially being being "just 
    like a woman"?  If so, I would disagree.  Can you elaborate on what 
    you mean ...  thanks.
    
    Paul     

    .23  Mike,
    
    I lost you on most of your points here.  Can you provide some real-life
    examples to clarify?  Thanks.
    
    Paul
    

    
>    I love 511.0's concept of men selling out other men. It fits the way I
>    often feel perfectly. I felt it again this weekend while watching the
>    Patriots game. 
>
>    And there the men were in all their splendid fashion, televised, for
>    all New England to see. "But all men are not like that," I sighed.
>    And once again I felt sold out by other men...
    
Can we be a little bit clearer as to the definition of "sold out"?  I 
can understand how you would feel disappointment in the behavior of 
those men, Erik, but how did their behavior directly sell you out, or 
directly hurt you for specific gain on their part?  (The hurt that 
comes to you is indirect, correct?)

I don't think this fits the definition of "sold out."  In fact, I have
yet to read much in this note that can be described as selling other
men out, what can be described as the purposeful harming of one man
for another man's gain.  The only example I've read is one man
"stealing another man's girlfriend/wife" (there is some sexism and
objectification in this very notion).  Actually, I wondered if anyone 
would bring up the fact that this country's version of capitalism is 
traditionally based on one man selling out another (it's called 
"competition").


							--Gerry

    
    Re  .26 
    
    OK, I'm not so sure showing men drinking beer on TV is a good example
    of men selling men out, either.  I mean, I like to drink beer with men.
    
    But if the ad implies in some way, that if you don't guzzle beer,
    and live the way these guys in the commercial are living -- remember
    this is reaching tens of millions of men -- that you are somehow not a
    real man;  hence, a lot of men who don't guzzle beer would (and are) put
    in the position feeling pressured to live up to what is expected of men 
    -- some would be afraid of being categorized as "sissy" or "wimp" by men 
    in general, and hence this type of thing makes it difficult for a lot of
    men to be themselves.   A lot of men -- I don't think you are one of
    them -- have difficulty expressing their true natures because of the
    powerful societal peer messages of what being a "real man" is all about.  
    
    Remember that Old Spice commercial that asked the question:  What kind
    of men use Old Spice?  Then they blatantly made fun of "wimpy" men by
    showing scenes of sensitive -- almost effeminate -- guys walking 
    manicured poodles and doing other similar "wimpy" things, and the 
    voice-over said, "Not these men!"  Then they showed other more macho type 
    of guys, in real "manly" type scenes, and the voice-over again said, "Old
    Spice is for THESE kind of men!"   A lot of guys were personally
    offended by that commercial.  What kind of message does it send a
    teenage boy, who is struggling with his identity as a man and who
    probably doesn't have quality male role models in his life to begin
    with?
    
    Is it a sign of weakness for men to hesitate to express their true
    natures because of some of the peer pressure that they've been exposed
    to since boyhood?  I'm not so sure.  Who wants to be rejected?  Mike,
    have you ever hesitated to be yourself / express yourself in some way 
    among a group of men for fear you might not being accepted?  If not, then
    that's great.  However, there are LOTS of men out there who experience
    virtual isolation; they're stiff, unexpressive, and feel stifled in
    being the types of persons they really are, and they feel they have no
    outlets in their lives -- no safe spaces -- to shatter the isolation. 
    I've seen this phenomenon up close and personal, over and over and over
    again.   Some of this stuff is pretty engrained.  I'm not referring to
    men who some would consider psychologically "unbalanced," either. 
    These are men from all walks of life who otherwise appear to have their
    shit together, men with very fine characters once you get to know them.
    
    If you would like to go to one of these mens workshops, the kind that
    Bly conducts, to see/hear for yourself, then I'll be glad to pay 
    your way.  Is it a deal?  
    
    I think if men stopped being so hard on each other to conform
    to certain notions of manhood -- be that the macho, the sensitive, or
    whatever -- and started supporting other men in being themselves, 
    coming from an allowing place so that safe space is created for it,
    then you wouldn't hear so much talk about men "selling out" each other.    
    
    During the last superbowl, one of the 49ers players -- what was his name, 
    Burt?  I'm not a big football follower (What! ;)) -- at the end 
    of the game kissed his son about a half dozen times on the lips in 
    full view on national television.  How many millions of fathers 
    out there experienced powerful funny feelings at that moment?  How much 
    embarrassment did that cause millions of fathers and sons watching?  
    It sure struck a cord with me because my father taught me that fathers 
    and sons aren't supposed to kiss, though he wanted kisses on his death 
    bed.  If men supported each other in being their own kind of man,
    which I don't believe we as men in this culture do, then a scene like
    that wouldn't cause men/boys all over America so much embarrassment and
    funny feelings.  
     
    Well, anyway, I hope this helps explain where that type of feeling
    might come from.
     
    Regards,
    Paul

    re .21
    I don't understand why, although you don't seem to relate to the
    behaviour and the views of the members of the "pack", you still want to
    feel like a part of it and feel left down when those pitiful chaps
    don't keep the standards you've set for yourself...
    My view is that I couldn't care less if other men behave like a bunch
    of backward shimpanzees, just find it kind of sad, but it's everyone's
    damn right to lead his own life...
    I'd laugh at that Bud advertisement, for it's really a serious
    candidate for the "Australopithecus Award 1990", appealing to the
    lowest instincts of the lowest of men... 
    During my year in North America, it always struck me as very
    interesting that all the beer ads aimed at this "pack" feeling in
    folks, i.e.  the homeboys drive out in the van and send the mandatory
    whistle after a "gal" in a tight short minidress, and these ads always
    assume that EVERY man wants to belong to this pack. Ever noticed this?
    Do you have some explanation? Would YOU feel manly and safe in such a
    group of "real" men?
    Why this urge to be integrated in a group, even if their attitude
    doesn't suit you at all? Are men afraid of being different, do they
    feel they'd be less good in everyday's competition if they'd stand to
    themselves instead of thoughtlessly trying to adapt or fit into some
    roles??? 
    Gerry's point is very valid, at the begining of this note we listed
    some competitive environments (like love and the job) in which guys can
    really sell out themselves by not keeping to the rules. But what are
    the acceptable rules? Where's the limit to competitiveness? How do yu
    deal with being the occasional loser in the game? How important is it
    to be better THAN OTHERS, or is it just important to make the best of
    yourself, refusing to measure yourself with standards set by other
    people?
    Waiting for your replies and views on this...
    ...Paul (who loathes "pack" instincts..)

>    don't keep the standards you've set for >yourself...
>    My view is that I couldn't care less if other men behave like a bunch
>    of backward shimpanzees, just find it kind of sad, but it's everyone's
>    damn right to lead his own life...

But what if they harrass women from vans, or punch people who they feel
romantically inadequate compared to ? What if they rape or murder someone
just to show what good ole boys they are ?

For what its worth, British Beer adverts are getting further and further away
from anything to do with beer. The Heiniken and Carling Black Label adverts
show some bizarre thing happening or incredible feat respectively, ending with
the slogans "Only Heiniken  can do this" or "I bet he drinks Carling Black Label"

And the cultural phenomenen of the century: the Rutger Hauer Guiness adverts
which frequently do not mention the product at all. I saw a program on the 
making of these adverts, and the ad execs claimed they were specifically
aiming at the non-conformist/individualist.

Mark.

    
    RE .21
                 -< *Classic* male-bashing in WOMANNOTES.... >-
    
    Just a nit....
    That title is kind of misleading :-}
    I assume that you're unhappy about the "male-bashing" in the advert -
    the person who typed it in just happened to have put it into the =wn=
    conference, right? I doubt if anyone in =wn= supports the ad either.
     
    I agree that the advert is "male-bashing" from what I've heard -
    I don't get to see it over here. I really wish people - regardless of
    gender - would stop setting up roles for how other people *should*
    behave. It limits all of us, and reinforces the societal and peer
    pressure that we all feel quite clearly enough anyway - these
    kind of ads just make me feel embarassed as they so grossly
    underestimate the intelligence of most men and women that I know.
    IMO.
    
    'gail
    
      
    
    

    We ought to talk more about actions that absolutely harm other men by
    not not holding to the "rules of the game"....for example...
    
    DAMN, DAMN, DAMN!!!!!
    
    *DIVORCE* lawyers!!! (Try to picture the trembling and loathing in my
    voice in here...) How about that one? Gosh, one look at my wife (she
    had dressed herself accordingly for the occasion) and I knew that
    mischief was in the brew. She has the fool eating out of the palm of
    her hand, and I'm getting shivers when looking at the ammendments he's
    made to our initially very fair and friendly settlement, giving her
    some advice on how she could get more support... For the first time in
    my life I've heard my wife always had plans to go for a doctorate,
    which will lengthen my liability to provide maintenance for additional 4
    years... Heck, it's always the wrong guys getting heart attacks...
    Well, well, how's that for "men-selling-out-men"? 
    God, I swear I'm not stingy, but that's really too much...
    Or how about... "friends" that spark rumours to make the separation
    even harder than it is... giving "advice" and "comfort" to her, telling
    her what a backward fool I am, that allegedely another woman is going
    to move in immediately after she walks out (which is absolute
    nonsense..)... And just because they figure out it may pay off for the
    future to be nice to a good looking woman and back-stab a former friend
    for it, it's just so cheap and evident... Men would kill their own father
    for a handsome face, it seems...
    
    Just two "nice" examples of what I perceive as "men-selling-out-other-
    men", or rather human-being-backstabbing-human-being, for no doubt
    women can be just as mean among themselves... It's our society!
    
    ...Paul