Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I don't think this is anything new - it's only that it's become
    "okay" for women to admit it now.  In the past, we've wanted to
    believe that women wouldn't "cheat", and looked the other way when
    men did it.  I think that the actual frequency has been a lot closer
    between the sexes than we've been willing to admit.
    
    As for how it feels?  Betrayal of trust is no piece of cake - for
    men or women.  I don't think that a man would feel any differently
    about it than a woman would.
    
    I will note, having participated in a discussion of this topic
    in HUMAN_RELATIONS, that whether a certain activity is "cheating"
    depends on the expectations of the people involved.  If you put
    it in terms of trust betrayed, the issues are clearer.
    
    					Steve

    I.M.H.O, "having one on the side" whether you're married or not
    is cheating (in a big way), and if I found out my SO *was* cheating,
    all further communication would go via solicitors!
    
    Charles

    
    I can forgive a lot of things but I don't think I could
    ever forgive betrayal, whether it is by my wife, friends,
    whoever. 
    
    							Hank

    
    	i cheated once on my IO, after years of hearing how unattractive,
    	stupid and lucky that he married me, i rebelled.
    		
    	it made me look at things differently and select a choice that i 
    	thought was too hard to make. i told him it was over and i was
    	leaving, packed up the kids & myself with half the furniture
    	and moved into an apartment....18 months into divorce proceedings
    	i'm confident i did the right thing. i've got a healthier attitude
    	without him around....
    	
    	in summary, i don't condone affairs, i don't condone mine, either.
    	but not because it might have hurt the IO but it did result in
    	some false expectations from the adulterers. i guess what you can 
    	take heart in is that a valuable lesson can be learnt from it.
    
    	as to those who are habitual cheaters, they are either blind to the
    	obvious or setting out to destroy their partners. like in anything
    	that is wrongfully habitual someone always comes out hurt in one
    	shape or form.

    
    I'm not certain that my (ex-)wife was cheating before she left,
    (I never confronted her with what I suspected) but I believe that
    she was.  All the evidence was there - a decline in the quality
    of our marriage, a dramatic increase in the number of nights that
    she had to work late "because things here in the office are just
    so busy,"  a sudden increase in the amount of attention paid to
    personal grooming (hair, clothes, make-up, jewelry, perfume) and
    obviously none of it for my benefit,  mysteriously appearing items
    in her wardrobe that were clearly not affordable according to our
    household budget (jewelry, clothes, etc.) that would have been my
    choices as gifts were I to have had an affair on the side, a sudden
    need for nights out "with a few of my friends from work" where time
    of return home was generally around 3:00 A.M., a complete refusal
    on her part to talk about anything concerning the two of us except
    the day-to-day details of maintaining the household.
    
    Getting to .0:  How does it feel?  You go through the same grieving
    process that happens when someone close to you dies.  First, there's
    disbelief and denial, then sadness, hurt, and disappointment, then
    anger, and finally acceptance.  (In a way, the end of the trust
    between two people who have pledged to be faithful to each other
    is a kind of death, I suppose).   The final emotion you're left
    with is insult and resentment; you feel cheated, used, disrespected,
    betrayed, and very, very insulted (or at least I did).   I can't
    understand how anyone with any self-respect at all can stay with
    someone who has been unfaithful;  at the very least, with all the
    incurable diseases out there now, some of them merely unpleasant
    and some fatal, your physical health is at serious risk, not to
    even mention your mental and emotional health.

    
    Re .5:
    
         Why does Digital policy prevent you from answering
         the question in .0 honestly?
    
             Sincerely curious -
    
    
    

    I'm not married so this might not apply, but technically the feelings
    I'm feeling now are the same as my *un*happily married sister, so here
    goes:
    
    There comes a point in a relationship when you feel almost *used*. 
    When your SO or husband takes you for granted, all the "little things"
    you've ever done for them.  All the romance is gone.  Sex?  Your lives
    as so busy, he doesn't have *time* for sex.  And when it happens it's
    one of the "wham-bam" things that leave you wanting to cry after he
    rolls over and snores away the second he's finished.  When he no longer
    cares about *your* pleasure, just wants to "get it over with" for his
    *own* sake.
    
    Whatever happened to kisses and hugs, holding hands.  Now you're just
    a piece of the furniture.  If that.  And his friends and immediate
    family, *his* needs, are much more important than any of your needs or
    wants or hopes and dreams.
    
    Communication?  There is none.  You want to find out why there is a
    "wall" being built between the two of you.  You know it's not another
    woman, so what is it?  Your attempt to make things better and
    communicate is met with silence.  So you turn, in your pain, to another
    man.  Not in the physical sense.  For the romance and the sweet joy
    that was lost between the one you love and yourself.  That is what I'm
    having to deal with now.  I've been with Sean for a year and he's too
    busy for me.  Life is painful for me now.  I've learned not to "put all
    my eggs in one basket".  So instead of working things out verbally, I'm
    dating a couple of men from school to ease the pain I'm feeling over
    being neglected.  I've never done that before.  When he decides to
    commit himself to this relationship and try and meet me half-way,
    that's when I'll stop dating.
    
    My heart still belongs to Sean.  But I'm not going to be left high &
    dry and feel so much pain.  So I really can relate to women who cheat
    on their husbands.  Sean may not be my husband, and I may not be
    cheating on him in the *biblical* sense, but I'm "dating" to ease the
    pain.  And if I should find someone who can keep my interest, maybe,
    just maybe, I'll say goodbye.  Who can say?  Life is *strange*!  You
    work so hard for something good, and when it doesn't come to fruition,
    you deserve to seek elsewhere for happiness.
    
    Tammi
    

    
    Re .8:
    
         Tammi -
    
               I'm sorry to hear that things aren't good between you
    and Sean.  It sounds like you're really unhappy with the way things
    are, and that you've really tried to tell him how you feel, and
    what you need.
    
               On the other hand, I don't condone what you're doing.
    It sounds to me like you've given up and decided that he's not the
    right man for you - and if that's the case, you owe it to him, if
    you care about him at all, to let him know NOW.   Say goodbye now,
    and don't wait until you find someone else who can "keep your
    interest."  Let him know that you feel used, neglected, and ignored,
    and you won't put up with it.  If you have any respect for him and
    for yourself, you'll set things straight in this relationship before
    you seek another.
    
             (This is just my own personal advice, for what it's worth).

    P.S.  Your personal name doesn't match what you say in .8

    I'd say .6 pretty well sums it up.
    
    		Steve

    RE:9
    
    On the contrary, I HAVEN'T given up on him.  That's why I'm dating
    other people. to give both of us some breathing room.  The more dates I go
    on, the more I see the value of what *he* brings to me as compared to
    others.  But he is in a self-centered, selfish stage of his life right
    now.  I can't compete with that, no way.  Therefore, I'm not going to
    stay by his side and be complacent.  I've tried everything possible to
    make things work for us.  You are right, I'm unhappy, not really with
    him as a person, but with the situation *he* has allowed us to be in at
    this point.
    
    You are right, my PN doesn't match what I'm feeling right now, but you
    must understand that the only thing I want out of life (besides being
    successful at work and home) is his love, support and respect.  I'm not
    like these typical "washingtonian" women who care about the bank
    account, the kind of car someone drives and the material things he can
    bring.  I wish to be part of a team, two people working together
    towards common goals and ideas.  That's about all I ask for.  So it
    isn't too much, and it's something I've *always* had in my
    relationships.  Until now.
    
    Sean is well aware of the fact that men are interested in me, I'm not
    hiding anything from him.  If he told me to stop and he wanted to work
    things out, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  But he doesn't, so I'll do it
    until he realizes that 1) he can live without me   or 2) he will meet
    me 1/2 way.
    
    As for the men I'm dating, they are aware that at this stage of the
    game, I'm wanting friendship and companionship, nothing more.  I do
    nothing wrong on dates and send them no mixed messages as to what I
    want.  So the only person I'm hurting is myself.  Why myself?  Because
    I very much want to be with Sean.  But in order to give him space, I
    pull away from him.  It's the way *he* wants it, not me.
    
    Back in my mother's time, men actually "competed" to get the "woman of
    their dreams".  There was nothing wrong with a woman casual dating a few
    men at a time.  Some women were real "heart breakers", getting "pinned"
    to lots of guys at the same time.  This was considered to be acceptable
    behavior.  At least I'm being *honest* and upfront, and no one's
    getting hurt, because I'm a very honest person.  I've never done this
    before, and I actually asked mom and Sean's mom if I was doing the
    right thing in the situation I'm in and both agreed that this is the
    right thing to do.  So I feel somewhat comfortable that I'm not "using"
    anyone ... 
    
    But I'm digressing from the original topic, aren't I?  Sorry!  You can
    aplly this scenario to married life, I'm sure, if you really think
    about it, guys.  Women want the emotional aspect of love,  while men
    want the physical aspect.  You have to balance both to maintain
    happiness.  What I've written about is typical of many marriages that
    have turned sour.  I hear many stories of women I work with having
    affairs, and the beginning of them started due to feelings such as what
    I've put down.
    
    Tammi (who's hoping and praying that things will be ok) 

If two people are not in an explicitly stated, committed monogamous
relationship, then dating other people is not cheating.  If two
unmarried people run into trouble in a committed realtionship and if
one of them says "I need to see other people," I don't consider that 
to be cheating.  If it's one thing that I can't stand, it's being held 
to some unspoken agreement that I didn't know about; the commitment 
and terms must be explicitly agreed upon.

"Condoning" is an interesting word.  It assumes an awful lot of power 
in what I consider to be someone else's private life.

"I do not want what I haven't got" is an ideal.  I don't think that it 
is wise to berate onself for not embodying an ideal.


							--Gerry

PS  As usual, this is all my opinion, not the truth with a capital 
"T."

    	RE: Tammi and Gerry
    
    	Maybe the two of you feel it's okay to date others because
    	they aren't married, but still turn the tables and ask yourself
    	how you'd feel if the person you thought was your partner was
    	dating others without your knowledge. Not too well I'd expect!!
    	I can't see why anyone would do this to another person, if you
    	want to date others (if your married or not), why not end the
    	first relationship rather than run shod over someone's feelings?
    	I know how it feels to think the one you love is true to you only
    	to find out later you were one of many!! In my opinion, having that
    	person do something to hurt me physically would hurt alot less than
    	the hurt you feel after you discover your loved one was cheating.
    	I'm not saying you have to stop seeing them, just you owe it to
    	them to be up front about your actions. Anything less is the same
    	as lying, you are living a lie, your SO thinks you are true when
    	in fact you aren't.
    
    	G_B

    RE:.14
    
    Not to get on the defense, but if you re-read my past notes, you'll see
    that I stated I have been up-front and honest with all concerned about
    what I'm doing.  Not only that, but we had a stated commitment back in
    September, neither of us wanted to date others.  But I found that the
    more I "assumed" with this new-found commitment, the more he
    "backed-off" and the worse he treated me.  And the worse I felt about
    myself.  Now that he's got *lots* of competition, he's playing the old
    "cat and mouse" game.  And he loves it.  Let me state for the record
    that I actually *hate* playing games.  But I love this man and feel a
    strong commitment.  When he decides to "grow up" and make a "true"
    commitment of the heart, instead of playing headgames, then I'll go
    back to being the steady, sweet, dependable, committed and loving woman
    that I am.
    
    Tammi
    

This is to reply .8

	I am not married also; so I don't know how it exactly feels like.  For 
the sake of discussion, I would want my wife to talk this out with me rather 
than approaching the solution from a third person.  The wife has the responsi-
bility to find out why her husband is acting like that; who knows, may be there
are reasons for it.  If the both of them can't talk it out or can't melt the 
ice between, then the best solution is to separate and move on with each other's
life.  What I am saying is, I strongly disagree that the wife sees a problem that
she is bothered so much by it while the husband doesn't know about it (many men
have the tendency to neglect little things); and then she searchs for someone
else to replace him in the future.  Meanwhile, she'll just stick with her 
present marriage until the time to "surprise" him.  If you are no longer care
about your partner, say goodbye to him or her; then you'll still can be friends
and greet each other in the future when the two of you meet.  However, if one
cheated on the other, a hatred is created, and why would any one want it?

    I have been married for less than one year (my age is nearly 50 and
    this is my second marriage...the first one from 1963 'till 1988), so,
    since I am still "sort of" on my honeymoon, perhaps I am a bit
    idealistic about this topic.
    
    The relationship my wife and I have is so very special to me and utterly
    different from my previous marriage.  I think, that should my wife have
    a "fling" now, it would be totally out of her character, and probably
    would have tons of surrounding circumstances.  I value our relationship
    so much, that I think I would let it pass, and try to keep the
    relationship intact.  Yeah, I'd be hurt, and a lot of trust would
    require patching up, but, what we have is worth that effort.  I am NOT
    saying it wouldn't hurt as much as ever, but... well you know what I
    mean.
    
    However, if, for some reason, our relationship begins to fade...then an
    infidelity occurs, that sort of points the finger of responsibility
    right back at me/us.  Why did it fade in the first place...what could
    we do to keep that from happening.
    
    In my previous live (last marriage), I'd have probably acted
    impulsively and have tossed her out...wound up leaving her anyway (for
    different reasons).  I'd really have to think about that now, though. 
    There's just too much at stake now.  It's too good to give up on.
    
    tony	(who's just thinking out loud)

.13>If two people are not in an explicitly stated, committed monogamous
.13>relationship, then dating other people is not cheating.  If two

    I agree with the above, but I got the impression from .0 that this was
    in a committed relationship.

    I'm not a man, so I can't answer about cheating wives, but I do know
    that **if** I am in a committed monogamous relationship, and I find out
    he indeed did cheat ( where cheat equals a date that is not just two
    friends [one male, one female for a heterosexual relationship] going
    out and having a good time, but a possible romantic encounter being
    set up)...  I would walk...  no if, ands, or butts about it...  

    I've done it once, and I have no qualms about doing it again..  it
    if you feel that you need to not be in a committed monogamous
    relationship, and you are in one now, then you need to communicate that
    to the other person before you play...

    just my 4.5 cents worth :-)

	I've talked with men who have lived with cheating wives	
	for years. I asked one man how he could stay with a
	woman whom he knew was having affairs. At first he
	answered that he loved her, and of course for the
	childrens sake. Then, he thought for a bit, and told
	me that it was somewhat erotic to think about his 
	wife with another man, and it actually increased his
	desire for her.

	This is something I can't understand. To think of my
	SO with someone else would decrease my desire for him.

	kits

>Then, he thought for a bit, and told
>	me that it was somewhat erotic to think about his 
>	wife with another man, and it actually increased his
>	desire for her.

 Some people are into this; not me. The only desire it would increase is the
desire to terminate.

 The Doctah

    
    	that whole idea is repulsive....
    	imagine having to compete with date #1 r 2 or 3, etc????
    	
    	no way.

I cannot necessarily condone Tammie's actions, however I can see quite
clearly what she is talking about and experiencing.  As my marriage was
nearing the breaking point I was in a number of ways, like Sean.  I spent
less time with my wife, I became selfish spending more time at my job or
with friends and ignored her pleas and warnings.  Rather than go into all
the details here, let me just say that finally I figured out that while I
cared for her, I did not love her anymore..I could not be the person/husband
she wanted me to be.  To be that person would not have been me.

Was she cheating on me?  I suspected it at one point and confronted her
and she denied it.  I believed it then, but looking back now I think she
was seeing someone, and from where I sit today I can't say that I blame
her if she was.  She had/has her needs that I could not fulfil.  And after
expressing time and again that she wanted *me* not someone else to supply
those needs, and I couldn't/didn't, she needed someone to do so, as does
Tammie.  We all do.

Should she tell him?  I don't know.  But if she has expressed to him, what
she has expressed here and he hasn't responded then its time to really question
his desire to continue the relationship.



Jim

    re:.22
    
    Jim:
    
    Thanks for the understanding.  And you know, your point of view has
    made me think about whether he's feeling the same way you felt about
    *your* breakup.  Maybe he's sick of it all, and is trying to sort of
    "drive me" to ending it, rather than he himself ending it?
    
    Luckily, we are *not* married!  I don't think he will ever be ready for
    a "serious" relationship, to be honest.  At least not with me.  I get
    the impression that he may just want something pretty to hang on his
    arm for those occasions that call for a convenient female companion to
    show off with.  Whatever the reason, I'm more convince that I'm doing
    right by not putting all my eggs in one basket.  I've given so much to
    the relationship that I'm finding myself becoming more and more
    resentful as the feelings are not returned (at least to my knowledge
    they aren't).
    
    Tammi

    Some of the replies in this string remind me of a line William
    Hurt made in the movie "The Bill Chill":
    
        Rationalizations are more important than sex.
        
        When was the last time you went a day without 
        a good rationalization?
    
            
           Alan 

    Tammi-
    
    >My heart still belongs to Sean.
    
    Why? I don't understand why you are there for him at all, if he is not
    there for you at all. In my book, this doesn't sound like a
    relationship. By sticking with him, you are preventing yourself from
    being with someone who will treat you well, with love, and respect.
    
    >You
    >work so hard for something good, and when it doesn't come to fruition,
    >you deserve to seek elsewhere for happiness.      
    
    I think you should take your own advice on this one.  
    
    There are such things as dry wells.
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    -roger
                     

    
    Who are we to criticize or approve Tammi's actions?
    
    

    Perhaps part of the problem is that in this day and age people
    tend to associate having relationships with people or dating
    more than one person with having sex with them.
    
    In the past when young women were encouraged to date around it was
    assumed that the relatioships would go no further than a chaste kiss
    good night.
    
    Even in the cases of the young women who would get 'pinned' to several
    young men.
    
    Does anyone even remember anymore when a 'girl' who kissed on a first
    date was 'fast'? Now, from what I have been told, by my single friends,
    sex on a first date is often a matter of course.
    
    Why must a dating relationship imply monogamy? Assuming it is just
    exactly that, a dating relationship without personal intimacy.
    Accepting one or more dates with a person does not imply a commitment
    to that person.
    
    In a similar vein, married persons can have friends of the opposite
    sex, of whom they are fond, without it being a betrayal of their
    marriage. 
    
    Neither of these points, obviously addresses the base note, that of
    women (or men) for that matter, who actively cheat in a sexual sense
    on their spouses.
    
    I believe that Steve Lionel is right in that it has simply become more
    apparent that some women do what some men have done more publically
    for a long time. However, it is possible that the availability of
    reliable birth control in the form of the pill increased women's 
    chosing to emulate the male sexual pattern in recent times.
    
    Quite honestly I think that people's private lives are none of my
    business and I chose not to judge people or speculate on their
    personal choices.
    
    Tho I would suggest that  a common reason that people 'cheat' rather
    than leave is simple human insecurity, and fear of being left
    alone, rather than some sort of warped lack of personal integrity.
    
    Bonnie

    re .25

>    >My heart still belongs to Sean.
>    
>    Why? 


    	This is what unconditional love is all about.  This is what makes
    	a lasting marriage.  This is what is often missing in many of the
    	marriages that break up today.  This is what is meant by DECIDING
    	to love.  

    	I see two kinds of love in relationships.  There is the romantic,
    	infatuated love -- honeymoons, romances, storybook kinds of stuff.
    	This love is based on feelings, and feelings are fleeting and
    	change on a daily basis.  For many people, when this love ends,
    	so does the marriage.  It is easy to love with this type of love.
    	(This doesn't only apply to marriages, but to any relationship --
    	for example, getting a new car.)

    	There is a second kind of love that is not based on feelings.  It
    	is the love that comes from deciding to love.  It is a decision
    	that chooses to look beyond the faults of both your partner and 
    	yourself.  To experience this kind of love you first have to 
    	experience disillusionment in the relationship.  If you decide
    	to give up when you hit disillusionment, you have decided not to
    	love.  But those long-lasting and strong marriages are the ones
    	in which the decisions to love were made, and the relationship
    	survived the storm.  They come out of it closer and stronger.

    	I always feel an uplifting in my heart when I see or hear of
    	someone trying to make a relationship work out in the face of
    	seemingly unbeatable odds.  They may not make it work out in the
    	end, but if they had chosen to go with the odds and throw in the
    	towel, they would have guaranteed failure.

    	Joe Oppelt

    
    Re .28:
    
          Sure, you can "decide" to love someone who doesn't treat
    you well, in a relationship where you're not getting what you need,
    if you want to do that.   You can also "decide" to stay with a
    boring, dead-end job that you hate, living on the hope that some
    day things will turn around and suddenly the job will become
    rewarding and exciting, if you want to do that, too.  But I think
    in both cases, what keeps someone in the situation is more the
    fear of abandoning the current SO or job and having to compete and
    face rejection again in the dating or job market than any noble
    quest to make the love or job work "in the face of opposing odds."
    I think that if person "A" is in a relationship where what they
    need and are looking for isn't being provided, and person "B" knows
    how person "A" feels and isn't about to change, then person "A"
    is being cheated and used by person "B".
    
             Ever heard anyone use the phrase "Why buy the cow when
    you're getting the milk for free"?   Sounds like Sean's rationalization
    to me.   
    
             

Please, folks, lets not put people on trial here.  The base topic asked
for contributions on the subject of how men feel about "cheating wives",
though it would seem reasonable to broaden that to a discussion on
betrayal of trust in a relationship.

				Steve

    re .29

    	Yes, you are correct.  There comes a time when continuing to
    	make the decision to love becomes a seemingly foolish act.

    	The point I was trying to make is that the end of romance and
    	infatuation does not have to be the end of a loving relationship.
    	People all too quickly write off the relationship when the newness
    	fades.  It is at that point when they can walk, or stick around
    	and MAKE it work.  There are few things as satisfying as a
    	relationship where the partners have gone beyond the disillusionment 
    	and MADE it work.

    	But both partners have to be willing to work at the relationship
    	or it will surely die.  Both have to be willing to give 100%.
    	Marriage is not a 50-50 proposition.  It is a 100-100 proposition.

    	And in light of that and this topic, I'd have to say that while
    	I would feel hurt, devastated and betrayed, I would not boot out
    	my wife if I found out she was cheating.  We consider our marriage
    	to be the primary way to fill our needs (such as the need to love and
    	be loved, self worth, belonging, independence).  If my wife has to 
    	look outside of our relationship to fill her needs, I have failed
    	her.  It is also our own personal responsibility to convey to each
    	other just what needs are not being filled, as well as to listen
    	to the other when a need is being expressed.  If she was unable to
    	let me know what her needs are, than I may have failed to listen, 
    	or I may have fostered an atmosphere the discouraged her from
    	trying to communicate.

    	Sure, I'd be crushed if she cheated.  But I would be equally 
    	devastated knowing that I let her down in failing to help her 
    	fill her needs.

    	Joe Oppelt

    RE: .22
    
    I am of the same mindframe as .22.  I don't know if I worked so
    many hours because my marriage was failing or my marriage failed
    because I worked so many hours - but I definitely could not be the
    husband she wanted and she could not be the wife I wanted.  We cared,
    but we were no longer in love with each other.  I honestly cannot
    blame her for going to bed with someone else as we had exhausted
    all other alternatives but lacked the resolve to go our separate
    ways until the ultimate 'thing' came between us.
    
    Cheating on a spouse is an emotional baggage some people will always
    carry - and some can't do that very well, witness my ex.  I hope
    never to be in the receiving end position again and make sure my
    wife I have today is the wife I'll have always, by communicating
    and always building on the relationship.

    IT is a good thing most of you understand,the nature of your opinoins.
    I just started wandering through notes,when I came across this subject.
    Witch makes my situation,a little more interesting.The little lady
    to was suppose to be my wife.Decided the grass might be greenner
    on the side.Even though this was a little more than a year ago.
      Now that we are legally divorced.Here other little night in shinning
    armer,has sent her on her marry little way.Now that she back in
    town I am scared to death she will come a calling.To risk the only
    sanity I left,would be crazy,to even think about trying this agian,
    would be crazy.Thank You all for your insights.Now I think I can
    handle this in a more mature and sincable fation.In ording to maintian
    my own self respect.THANK YOU.

	I noticed the word "SO" mentioned so often here.  Can any one tell me
what exactly it is?  I just want to confirm it with what I think it is.  Thanks.

    Steve (and everyone):
    
    I want to thank all of you for your input re: my situation.  It took a
    lot for me to bare my soul over the NOTESwaves, but this situation has
    left me feeling terrible.
    
    I value everyone's opinion re: my story and I have learned a lot.  Some
    of the answers are already buried in my heart, it just took another
    person to bring out what I was already feeling, but holding back.
    
    Personally, I have chosen to stick around and hope for the best. 
    Commitment is one of my big things, and I made a decision long ago to
    give it my best shot.  I realize he's going through some "growing
    pains" and changes of his own.  If after a certain amount of time
    things haven't evolved into something a bit better for my heart to
    take, then I'll take definitive action to end the relationship.  I
    guess that's what most people would do, anyway.
    
    Thanks for everyone's .02!
    
    Tammi

    Re .33, "the little lady....was suppose to be my wife", huh?
    
    Interesting....
    
    
    Lorna
    

    

           Well 37,concernning your opinion and or comment,maybe I 
    should explain myself.What I ment to say was,or what I was trying
    to say concernning the remark.Was this marrige thing,Isn"t it supposed
    to be based on love trust and or morals.Well,maybe in this case,
    just a little honesty and truth.
    

    re .38, yes, but I wouldn't respect, love or trust anyone who referred
    to me as the "little lady."
    
    Lorna
    

    
    -.1
    
    Well, you *are* slight, are you not?

    

                DEAR LORNA:
                  Well,you got me agian.Maybe I should change my choice
    of words a little.If I have,I didn"t mean to affend anybody.If your
    refierring to the fact that I called her THE LITTLE LADY,your quit
    right.I should have change my choice of words.MY APOLOGIES.

>                    <<< Note 451.41 by USWRSL::BOUCHER_RO >>>
 
>    refierring to the fact that I called her THE LITTLE LADY,your quit
>    right.I should have change my choice of words.MY APOLOGIES.



	There are plenty of women who have been called
	"The little lady" by their husbands and do not,
	have not found it offensive.  My Mother being one !!

	Probably because she is a lady....and little...and 
	knows that it's an affectionate phrase.

	kits

    Re: .42
    
    Sure, Kits, but you do understand that it's not PC, don't you? :-)
          
    Re: .41 (BOUCHER_RO)
    
    Sorry, don't know your first name. I am curious about something, 
    though.
    
    If you refer to your wife as "THE LITTLE LADY" in her presence,
    and she doesn't mind, why should you not continue to refer to
    her as such in this file?
    
    I'm sure you and your wife know what she likes to be called more
    than some stranger whose name appears on your screen.
    
      Alan
    

    
            Well,any to get back on track,I just understand,and can
    relate to anyelse this might happen to.Sometimes you can work it
    out and sometimes,you just have to get on with you life.

    re .41, thank you very much for the apology.  :-)
    
    
    re Bob Holt, yes, I am "slight" in build, and you're not.  So what?
                                                                 :-)
    
    re Alan Ross, I wasn't offended by the term "little lady" because
    it is *PI* ..... I have more reasoning capabilities than to just
    hop on the liberal PC bandwagon on all issues .....  I was offended
    by it because as a 40 yr. old woman who supports herself and isn't
    a halfwit, if a man referred to *me* as a "little lady" I would
    suspect that he wasn't taking me seriously as an equal human being.
    :-)   (which I, of course, am)
    
    Lorna
    

    re .45, in addition, since I am also 5'1" and weigh 97 lbs. I have
    heard terms such as this in reference to myself more than some larger
    women may have, therefore it may be more of a "hot button" for me.
    
    Lorna
    

    Gee Lorna, you're big.
    
    My "little lady" is 4'11" and 93lbs.
    
    Cheers,
    	Bob

    Any form of CHEATING, whether your S/O is your wife, husband, girlfriend, 
    boyfriend in my opinion STINKS!!  And LYING falls in the same
    category!!  

    
    I think the key word here is COMMUNICATE.  If someone is unaware of
    your feelings and/or ignoring them, than the worst WILL happen 
    eventually.  Everyone NEEDS to be loved.  No human being can live on a
    'one way' street forever.  They may pretend to be happy, but they're not.
    
    If your needs are not being met, something should be done now.  If 
    your "SO" doesn't see anything wrong (or refuses to see anything wrong,) 
    there is something seriously wrong with her/him. 
    
    Perhaps some counceling can bring it out.  Sometimes a third party can
    tap into some emotions that a "SO" can't for reasons to many to mention 
    (i.e. ego, shame, fear of control, etc.)
    
    So talk, laugh, and enjoy!
    Pam