Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    My feeling on manners is ....
    
    Good manners is doing whatever is necessary to make the other person
    feel comfortable.
    
    So.....if you're with a lady who does tend to take having doors
    held open as an insult, you'd actually be showing better "manners"
    to her by not doing so.....
    
    There's that old story about a host who saw one of his guests (the
    ignoramus!) drinking from his fingerbowl at table. Other guests
    were staring - to set his guest at ease the host drank from *his*
    fingerbowl. That's manners, IMO.
    
    It's just a matter of sensitivity to whoever you're with. Consequently
    the good ol' etiquette manuals often fail to have the right answer
    for modern times and attitudes and their dictates lack individual
    flavour.
    
    'gail
    

    
    Please will someone explain why women get so annoyed when men open
    doors for them.  I think men can't win sometimes.
    
    Joanne

    Well.. if I'm with a man, who doesn't open the door for me, both
    doorways and car doors, or help me with my jacket/coat on, etc...
    I'm usually not with him too long...
    
    Sometimes I wonder what their mothers taught them!...

Unfortunately, in today's society men can be shown dramatically conflicting
messages about what they thought was simple courtesy.  I've dealt with this
by realizing that any woman who would get offended by my holding a door
open for her isn't worth worrying about.

I do admit, though, that a man who yanks a door handle away from a woman who
was about to open it for herself deserves any grief he might get.

	Steve (who holds doors open for anyone)

	 I expect common courtesy.  And I give common courtesy.

	 I don't expect anyone to go out of their way to open a door
	 for me (ie, the car door, a guy running up from 40 steps
	 behind to get the building door, etc)

	 I expect common courtesy, though.  Just as I extend it, and I
	 feel it's ALSO a factor of common courtesy to not demand that
	 someone go over and beyond the call of common courtesy.
	 

	 In other words, respect each other.  Don't give too little
	 and don't expect too much.

	 kath

    Well, I try to open the door.  If it's the awkward situation wherein
    I am on the wrong side and the door opens the other way, well, I try to
    do whatever's comfortable without looking stupid or foolish.
    
    Actually I like the ones with the motion sensors so I can just snap my
    fingers and cause the door to open.  Chivalry without effort!
    
    ed

    
    i open so many doors for people weither it be men or women in my job
    and i find myself doing it almost everywhere i go just out of habit
    what gripes me is the snorty looks you get some times when you do this
    all i say so they can hear me is oh "your welcome" or "don't mention
    it" and they get the hint the common courtesy also applies also
    from the other side a thanks or just a nod of the head just to
    aknowledge the person in you are a groump in the morning.

    my father taught me it was polite and gentlemanly to open the door for
    a lady, even if I had to politely pass her to reach the door first. 
    (40 steps behind is a bit long-distance, though.)  
    
    I consider it doubly rude on the part of the lady to frown, comment, or
    otherwise advise me it was unwelcomed for me to try to help...just as
    rude as if the host had chastized the guest for drinking from the
    finger bowl.  
    
    But, I confess, that because so MANY women have objected to
    door-opening, or crossing over to walk on the street side, or whatever,
    I am now a bit gun-shy.  
    
    Sometimes, yer damned if you do, and yer damned if you don't. 
    
    Wish they'd make up their collective minds!
    
    tony 
    (who loves to be chivalrous, but is tired of being sniped at for it)
    

Re. .7 (did you type in that whole message without taking a breath?  That's
        how I found myself reading it.  8^) Sorry - just adding a little
	levity.  I do see your point and agree).

Opening the door for someone, woman or man, should be more of a matter of
common courtesy than anything else.  If you're the first to the door, why
not open it and let others ahead of you.  If you've got an armload of books
or groceries, let someone else open the door and say THANKS.  What's so bad
about either situation?

Beyond the Opening_the_Door issue, there's the issue about Please and
Thanks.  I was taught to use both frequently.  "Please pass the Parkay"
"Thanks for the memories".  Even a nod of acknowledgement, like .7 said, is
enough to show that what you did was appreciated.  No energy required.

Wayne (who tries to mind his P's and Q's)

    There's no better feeling than having a man open a door, offer to carry
    a bag, walk on the 'busy' side of the street.  Maybe Im old-fashioned but
    it sure feels great when my date treats me like a lady - opening doors
    is a real plus!
    
    Maureen

It was interesting when we first moved into this building and all of the
doors into and out of stair wells, and between sections were closed all the
time (having to be opened when entering/exiting stairwells,etc).  I found
myself holding the door for people a couple steps behind me, or those a couple
steps ahead of me going into the stairwell/section from which I was exiting.
As time went on it was interesting watching people, myself included, the extent
to which we went in holding those doors open.  People would be 30-40 yards
away and it was apparant that some people felt uncomfortable as to what they
should do..hold it or let them open it themselves.  And then I (and I assume
others) would consider how much of a load the person ahead/behind was carrying,
was the person a woman, would she be offended if I held it open, or if I let
it close.  For me, it became kind of comical, and I (along with many others I'm
sure) were quite glad when they secured all of doors open.

I do hold a door open for others (within a reasonable distance) and offer to
help others carry a load of stuff, but at times I must admit I'm unsure as
to whether I should for a woman for fears similar to those previously ex-
pressed in this topic.


Jim

           I've never had anyone get upset or snarl at me holding a door
         open for them.  At digital, if i'm entering or exiting, and some-
         one is say a second or two behind me, I'll slow down as I push
         thru the door, extending my arm (in a slow motion kind of way)
         to keep the door open till the next person can handle the door
         themselves.
    
           The same generally applies at Post offices, retail stores, etc.
    
           I think problems result for those who make it look like a 
         deliberate effort is going into the act of this common courtesy.
    
           
                                                       Russ

	I never expect doors to be opened for me, or helped on with my
    coat, etc., but when someone does offer, it's always appreciated
    and usually raises my impression of the person some.  As Maureen
    said, when a man makes the effort (like on a date) it's a plus, but 
    certainly not a requirement.

    	I never personally could relate to the women who took offense
    at having a door opened for them, or having someone offer to help
    them carry something...I don't believe anyone's indicating a sign 
    of weakness...just expressing common courtesy.

    	If I get to a door first when I'm with someone (male or female), 
    I'll open it and hold it for them.  And if I'm driving, I'll often
    unlock the passenger door first.  It's nice to reciprocate the
    courtesy too!

    	(Reminds me of the time a friend and I were walking into a
    building and down a hall - we had to pass through about 4 or 5
    doors.  We started "leapfrogging" them: he got the first, then
    since I was ahead of him, I got the next, etc.  When we got to the
    last, we both made a dash for it to see who'd be first! :^) )

    	amy

    I agree with the person who wrote that he whispers,"You're welcome"
    or some such line to people who do not say thank you for opening
    doors.
    
    When I was younger and I complimented a lady for something, generally
    her appearance but there were other occassions, it really galled
    me when she contorted her face, adopted a squeak of a voice and said
    something like," It was easy", or "It could have been better". It
    dawned on me then that the skill in accepting compliments is as
    important as giving them. All that is necessary is a plain, "Thank
    you" and a nice smile. No more. As I get older I compliment when
    I think the occasion warrents and people seem surprised, as if it
    is not the "done thing". It is the more mature (not synonymous with
    physical age) person, IMHO, who accepts compliments well.
    
    Do you ever look in a shop window, or at a row of pictures in a
    gallery, or books in a library and someone walks right through your
    field of view without saying,"Excuse me"?
    
    Incidentally, I like walking on the nearest the kerb. It feels right.
    The original reason rarely applies these days but the thought is
    there.
    
    In my pre-marital days I received quizzical looks when I bought
    an orchid etc ( I cannot spell coursage - the flower generally given
    by a male to a female for her to wear on her dress during an evening
    out) as if it was a strange Martian custom. I guess they didn't expect
    it.                                                          
    
    But there are some I'm not sure about. Like ordering the ladies
    food at dinner. Something I've never done but I'm told is the right
    thing, maybe that's my concession to the modern lady :-).
    
    Finally, as I must get back to work. I like it when a lady puts
    her arm through mine. There is no sexual conotations, it merely
    states that we are comfortable and enjoy each others company. It
    helps to forge a "special" relationship.
    
    Oh yes, how many people are sad when you never receive a "thank you" 
    note, especially if a lot of effort when into the gift. 
    
    None of these gripes are important, but merely nicities. They help
    the world go by much more smoothly. 
    
    Dave
                                                              
    

    
.14>    But there are some I'm not sure about. Like ordering the ladies
.14>    food at dinner. Something I've never done but I'm told is the right
.14>    thing, maybe that's my concession to the modern lady :-).


    I find this one of the ultimate in treating a lady like a lady..
    although most females don't agree with me, I absolutely melt when 
    a man orders the meal for me...   

    The one time that I was a little upset was when I was taken to a really
    nice place, and only HIS menu had the prices...  What if *I* was the
    one treating for the evening?..  I have to admit, that dinner was
    probably the one that I have the most memories from though..  it was
    sorta nice not knowing what my dinner was costing (I could *only*
    imagine!)... I think in a setting like that it is **expected** that the
    man do the ordering...

    If I ever have a son, I plan on teaching him how to properly order a
    meal for a lady...
    
    Gale
    

    Gale,
    
    I never, ever tell my guest the cost of the meal. That really is
    a clanger.
    
    Dave

    Re: .16

    I'm not saying the total bill, but I personally like to know the cost
    of what I am personally ordering...

    Sometimes I feel that what a place is charging is not worth what I'm
    eating... I may order lobster if its in the $12-15 range, but I sure
    in the heck won't order it if its in the $30-$35 range... 

    If my menu doesn't have prices on it, how can I tell :-)

>    I find this one of the ultimate in treating a lady like a lady..
>    although most females don't agree with me, I absolutely melt when 
>    a man orders the meal for me...   

 In the past, I never ordered for my date, unless she told me what she wanted
and expected me to order for her. My default assumption was that she'd do her 
own ordering.

 Since married, sometimes I do order for my wife, sometimes I don't. I'm not
even sure if there's a rule in effect. In any case she always decides what
she's going to have (whether I do the actual ordering or not.)

 The Doctah

>    If my menu doesn't have prices on it, how can I tell :-)

 Look at the matches; if they are gold embossed, you know it won't be a
cheap eat. :-)

 The Doctah

    If you have been invited to dinner your host should worry about
    the cost; whether it's value-for-money or not is his concern not
    yours. Consider it the "cost" of your company, in the nicest possible
    way. 
    Alternatively, your host may decide that a particular restaurant
    is the only one good enough for you!
    
    Dave.

I open doors for women (and men) all the time.  I have never received a 
grimace or nasty remark.  Like someone else mentioned already, I go 
through the door first, and I hold my arm back until the next person 
has the chance to grab the handle.  Sometimes, I will hold the door 
for someone else, but only if it is more convenient (times at which I 
would actually have to cut them off to go through the door first).

I'd also like to mention that, for some, "rude" and "courteous" are in 
the eyes/ears of the beholder.  For instance, I find the use of the 
term "lady" in this note to be rude.  To use the term "lady" as a 
general term for women is insulting to me.  I find the word to be 
extremely sexist.  If you don't understand what I mean, write down the 
definition of the word for yourself, and write down all the behaviors 
that are lady-like.  On another paper, write down all the 
characteristics of an excellent leader or coworker.  Notice the 
incompatibilities.  Notice how the definition of "lady-like" is a 
box that rigidly defines what women can and can't do.  Granted, 
"gentleman" also defines actions, but notice that it does not exclude 
being "an excellent leader or coworker" like the definition of 
lady-like does.

I also find the statement "women who say that they do not want men to
go out of their way to open doors for them are being rude and don't
appreciate courtesy" to be very demeaning and egocentric.  Some 
people, like myself, believe that a lot of these definitions (lady) 
and actions (opening doors) are societal constructs that were devised 
with the underying premise that women need to stay in their place.  
Guys, how would you feel if women rushed to open every door for you, 
as if you were incapable of doing it yourself?  How would you feel if 
you had to dress a certain way, talk a certain way, cross your legs a 
certain way, or otherwise tailor your personality to a societal 
definition like "lady-like"?  I think you might get snippy at doors 
being opened for you after a while, especially if you began to see it 
as part of a box that you were being placed in.

...and then there are times when opening doors and putting on coats 
and ordering for a woman can be very sexy and romantic.  You all know 
I'm a secular humanist, so it shouldn't surprise you when I say that I 
think that words and actions depend on the context to give them 
meaning.  All I am advocating is that you give women some "choice" 
when it comes to these activities that traditionally have been labeled 
as "courteous" and some label "insulting."  Just ask the women, no?

I remember when I was a kid, my sister and I were folding the laundary 
and whistling.  My mother stopped my sister and said, "Whistling women 
and crowing hens is neither good for god nor his men."  My sister and 
I cracked up laughing.  I said to her that that was the silliest thing 
I had ever heard and asked her why that didn't apply to me, too.  She 
was embarrassed; she was a bit peeved; but she had no reply.

To me, and to a significant number of women, these traditionally
"courteous" behaviors are restrictions on women's freedom--in
particular, restrictions that systematically keep women from feeling
capable and powerful.  The only way to make room for traditional men
to feel good and nontraditional women to feel good is for men to
negotiate these activities before they try them.  The courtesy of
opening doors is questionable and contextual; considering a woman's
feelings is always courteous. 


						--Gerry

    Always wondered.....what are P's and Q's ?

There are as many stories about the origin of "P's and Q's" as there
are about "red tape" and other such things.  "Mind your P's and Q's" means,
in general, "Mind your manners."

				Steve

    re: .22
    
    You're so succinct, so clear, so to-the-point-yet-gentle.  
    Can I clone you?  
    
    -Jody
    

    American Heritage Dictionary defines lady as:
    1.A woman of refinement and good manners
    2.The female head of a household
    3.A polite term for any adult member of the female sex
    
    How is this putting women into a box? I personally don't define the
    term lady in any but the most positive of ways.  I am a female and I
    am certainly not offended by the term.
    

    re.22
    
    This is where we differ, the term "lady" is not derogatory (sp?),
    demeaning or insulting.  Nor is the term "gentlemen".  
    
    The words describe the characteristics of a type of person, I agree,
    but are they not characteristics some people would like to aspire
    to?
    
    Dave.

	Hi Ger,

	Interesting observations, though I don't agree.
	I just don't see anything improper or rude about using the
	term lady. It is nothing more than a polite way to refer to
	a person of the female gender. Admittedly, feminists
	have decided that the term denigrates them and they've
	tried to change the connotation. Fortunately, they've been
	unsuccessful. Within the realm of manners, it remains
	a polite term.

	
>To me, and to a significant number of women, these traditionally
>"courteous" behaviors are restrictions on women's freedom--in
>particular, restrictions that systematically keep women from feeling
>capable and powerful.

	I don't know Ger. Maybe the traditionally "courteous"
	behaviours have been more restrictive of men by always
	having men "wait on" women. Are men nothing but slaves
	who's purpose is to hold doors, throw their coats on
	the puddles so women don't get wet, pull out chairs
	at the table, etc? 

	Sorry Ger, not to be too contentious, but the significant
	number of women you mention probably find fault in
	anything involving men.

>All I am advocating is that you give women some "choice" 
>when it comes to these activities that traditionally have been labeled 
>as "courteous" and some label "insulting."  Just ask the women, no?

	No! Too many mixed signals. Any woman who gets miffed
	because a man holds the door more than likely has a great
	deal of difficulty with men in general and probably
	holds feelings of misanthropy.

    	Courtesy is nothing more that the extension of respect
    	and consideration to another human being. 
    
    							Hank
	

You folks are missing my point (I think).  I understand that some of
you think that "lady" is a compliment.  I don't object to you thinking
that.  I understand that there are a significant number of women out
there who enjoy having the label of "lady" applied to them. I don't
have a problem with that.  I understand that some of you think that
there is one "right" or "wrong" way to think about the term "lady."  I
don't object to you thinking that. 

What I would like for you to hear is that some people are insulted by
the word "lady," me included (though my opinion shouldn't count for
too much, because the label doesn't involve me directly).   Some women
are insulted by men rushing (note: going out of their way) to open
doors for them.  You can continue to make those people "wrong," and to
ignore how they feel.  If you do that, I predict that you are going to
keep getting pissed off and you will keep wondering why those women
are "so rude."  Or, you can accept their opinions as being equal to
yours (not better or worse, right or wrong), and you can negotiate a
peaceful coexistence. 

The choice, my male friends, is yours.

Do the right thing....


						--Gerry

>To use the term "lady" as a general term for women is insulting to me.

 To me, a lady is a nice woman. I assume that some must have other ideas
about what lady means, otherwise, there is precious little to have a cow about.

>I find the word to be extremely sexist.

 Like, no way. Really? Just because it only applies to a single gender? :-)
I assume you must be equally enamoured with "gentleman."

>Granted, 
>"gentleman" also defines actions, but notice that it does not exclude 
>being "an excellent leader or coworker" like the definition of 
>lady-like does.

 You must have some strange idea of what a lady is...

>I also find the statement "women who say that they do not want men to
>go out of their way to open doors for them are being rude and don't
>appreciate courtesy" to be very demeaning and egocentric. 

 Wait a minute. Who said that a woman has to sit at a door and wait until a man 
comes along to open it for her? Nobody. There is a small subset of women who 
feel that having a door opened for them _by a man_ is demeaning and insulting.
I think these women have problems putting things into perspective.

>Guys, how would you feel if women rushed to open every door for you, 
>as if you were incapable of doing it yourself? 

 Aha! The key here is "as if you weren't capable of doing it yourself." In my 
short 27 years on this planet, I have yet to meet a man who feels women are
incapable of opening a door for themselves. All of you out there who feel this 
way, raise your hand. I still don't see anybody. :-)

 Do you think it's possible that men are simply being polite? When I am the 
first person at the door, I open it and hold it for the next person behind me,
whether they happen to be male, female, black, white, animal, vegetable or
mineral!

>How would you feel if 
>you had to dress a certain way, talk a certain way, cross your legs a 
>certain way, or otherwise tailor your personality to a societal 
>definition like "lady-like"? 

 We do, to some extent.

>All I am advocating is that you give women some "choice" 
>when it comes to these activities that traditionally have been labeled 
>as "courteous" and some label "insulting."  Just ask the women, no?

 Ok, I'm walking into LKG, and there's a woman on the same step as me. We get
to the door, and I stand there and say "Should I open the door for you and wait
for you to pass through before passing through myself, should I open the door
and enter and hold it for you behind me, should I ignore you and take care of
myself, or should I wait for you to open the door for me?" By now, she's got her 
coffee and is sitting at her desk writing memos to keep the corporation going.
Be practical, Gerry.

 My motto: ignore the sex of the person coming through the door. If you are
there first, open it and hold it for them. End of story. If they have a
problem with that, let THEM get the ulcer; I'm not about to worry if my
actions are going to be met with sarcasm or appreciation. Do the right thing
and l;et the chips fall where they may. My conscience is clear.

>The courtesy of opening doors is questionable and contextual;

 I disagree. The courtesy of opening doors is nothing more or less than a 
courtesy; if someone does not appreciate the courtesy, that's their problem.

 The Doctah

>>All I am advocating is that you give women some "choice" 
>>when it comes to these activities that traditionally have been labeled 
>>as "courteous" and some label "insulting."  Just ask the women, no?
>
>	No! Too many mixed signals. Any woman who gets miffed
>	because a man holds the door more than likely has a great
>	deal of difficulty with men in general and probably
>	holds feelings of misanthropy.

Wow.  Hank rushes to open a door for a woman.  She gets pissy.  
Therefore, she "has a great deal of difficulty with men in general and 
probably holds feelings of misanthropy."

Neat trick, Hank.  You have tired her, convicted her, and thrown her 
in jail; and she didn't even open her mouth to speak!

This is why I advocate that you _ask_ the woman, first.  In my 
opinion, it would be much more valuable for her to speak for herself 
than for you to map and to project your opinions all over her.  It 
might be nice to check in with the source before you judge, no?

...and then people think I'm off the wall when I say that these 
behaviors and labels are societally "enforced."  Where's the choice?

							--Gerry

    
    Nice spin Gerry.
    No, Hank doesn't rush to open doors. That one qualifier that
    you've conveniently attached to my note distorts what I wrote
    and would indeed present a ridiculous situation. 
    Reread what you extracted. Or better still, having read the title
    of your note, forget it.
    
    

    
    
    Gee, I never realized the simple act of walking thru a door was
    so fraught with complications and decisions!  And we haven't even
    touched on proper etiquette for elevators!!
    
    

    Lets see, today I had a very nice man take me to lunch... he went to
    open the door for me, (it was a double door), and his side was locked
    (chuckle from me), to which I then opened the door on my side, and
    said, looks like you have to go in first :-)...
    
    I think its the thought here folks.. not the actual doing ;-)
    
    And BTW Gerry (TLE::FISHER), I much prefer the term Lady- to me it
    denotes "class"...
    
    Gale

    Ho-hum...so much being written about so little. Why not just open the
    damn door for yourself and yourself only ??? If someone's coming in
    behind you, let 'em open their own door....that should eliminate all
    the "chauvinist" sniveling....Courtesy be damned....
    
    
    
    As my grandmother used to say, "Nothing like throwing my good
    intentions back in my face"
    
    Paul C.
    
    

    re: .32 by Ger
    
    
.32�    This is why I advocate that you _ask_ the woman, first.  In my
.32�    opinion, it would be much more valuable for her to speak for
.32�    herself than for you to map and to project your opinions all over
.32�    her.  It might be nice to check in with the source before you
.32�    judge, no?
    
    from .31 by the Doctah
    
.31�    Ok, I'm walking into LKG, and there's a woman on the same step as
.31�    me. We get to the door, and I stand there and say "Should I open
.31�    the door for you and wait for you to pass through before passing
.31�    through myself, should I open the door and enter and hold it for
.31�    you behind me, should I ignore you and take care of myself, or
.31�    should I wait for you to open the door for me?" By now, she's got
.31�    her coffee and is sitting at her desk writing memos to keep the
.31�    corporation going.
    
    
    Ger,
    
    Is this really what you're advocating?
    
    Bob

    	my 2 cents...
    
    	It's difficult for me to get upset about this discussion....at
    least these days....  once, maybe 10-15 years ago things like this
    mattered...  In the 70's we women were trying to be seen as equals
    and having doors opened for us made us feel less equal.
    
    	Things aren't perfect in this world, and probably never will be,
    but I refuse to get a chip on my shoulder over the past injustices.
    These days, if a man opens the door for me, I smile and say thanks
    or if I get there first, I'll hold the door for him (or her)...
    In my building we don't have a loading dock and in the morning the
    UPS and Fed Express delivery men have to get their long carts thru
    double doors.  If the timing is right, I have held the doors open for
    them.  They always say thanks, though some are occasionally a little
    embarrassed.  I just smile.
    
    	On dates, I don't mind opening the door if I get there first, but
    if he does, and opens it, I am pleasant about it.  The fun part is
    whether to open the door and close it after me.  When I'm driving,
    I unlock my side and hit the automatic door unlock button and he can
    open his own door.  In a previous car, I would unlock it from the
    outside with my key and open the door for him.  In his car, he will
    usually open the door, and if he closes it for me, I will reach over
    and unlock his door.
    
    Just common courtesy.  I don't see anything wrong with being helpful.
    I know these days men worry about doing the right thing, but in my
    mind, the right thing is being considerate of the other person.
    plain and simple.
    
    	sherry

    
    If you give a little "social nicety" you shouldn't expect anything 
    back, otherwise it's not much of a gift.  If you DO get that person
    who acts like they didn't want you to be nice to them, remeber, what
    you did for them may make them smile a few minutes later. 
    
    If someone does something for you that you didn't want, say "thanks",
    anyways, it's the nice thing to do.
    
    Most of these people that we're all being nice too, (I hope)
    we will probably never see again or really know. It just makes the
    world a little bit easier.
    
    mike(); 

    
>    If you give a little "social nicety" you shouldn't expect anything 
>    back, otherwise it's not much of a gift.  If you DO get that person
>    who acts like they didn't want you to be nice to them, remeber, what
>    you did for them may make them smile a few minutes later. 
    
Some women don't see these things as "nice," they see them as 
oppressive.  Other women (probably most, if I had to venture a guess), 
think that it is nice...usually.  Other women (second largest 
number, probably) think that it is _very_ nice.  Okay, okay, so maybe 
asking everyone before you open a door is not practical.  All I am 
really advocating is that people make room in their lives for other 
people to see things differently and for that to be "okay" instead of 
"wrong."

From some people's perspectives, opened doors (under some contexts)
are not nice!  You can either accept their point of view or continue
to get pissy because every woman in the world isn't accommodating
itself to your point of view.  I'm also very sorry if you feel that
one set of ettiquette (sp?) rules is going to make everyone happy all
of the time; I highly recommend that you forget that idea (or at least
don't let it bother you when someone differs from popular opinion).  I 
find it highly significant that many men are upset when women don't want 
doors held open for them instead of dismissing it with an "Oh well!"

>    If someone does something for you that you didn't want, say "thanks",
>    anyways, it's the nice thing to do.

First of all, I don't think that being nice is always the appropriate 
thing to do.  Second, there are nice ways for women to tell men that
they don't appreciate having the door held for them.  It's all in how
it's said.  If a woman gently points out to a man that she doesn't
want the door held open for her next time, then what's the problem? 
Unless the man is is interested in bullying all women into accepting
whatever he feels is "kindness," regardless of what the woman thinks. 
Who is being rude in this scenario?  I really wonder.... 


							--Gerry

>I 
>find it highly significant that many men are upset when women don't want 
>doors held open for them instead of dismissing it with an "Oh well!"

 It's one thing to politely decline having the door held open for you. It is
quite another to snipe someone for holding the door. 

 The Doctah

    
    	I can't see why someone would get so upset about this. If I
    	choose to hold a door open for someone (notice HOLD, not GO
    	OUT OF MY WAY) and they accept it as offered, fine. If not,
    	why get huffy about it because she might? I don't, I just
    	say 'okay' and let the door slam on them and walk off. Hey,
    	someone may want to tell you off, it doesn't mean you have to
    	stand there and take it, you do have the option of walking
    	away leaving them standing there alone talking to the walls!
    
    	G_B

>     <<< Note 442.40 by TLE::FISHER "Work that dream and love your life" >>>

	 Ger..

	 I respect the fact that some women find it opressive.....and
	 I understand it...

	 but it's a two way street.

	 A woman that finds it opressive to have the door opened for
	 her should expect to be treated harshly if she treats someone
	 harshly for doing it in the first place.

	 If a woman doesn't want a man to open the door for her, she
	 can't EXPECT him to be knowledgeable about that.  She must
	 make the effort to say "No thank you, I'd rather open the
	 door for myself."

	 You see, even common curtesy when you don't want what another
	 considers to be common curtesy is a must.

	 If a woman gives a snide look and is offended, she has no
	 right to be angry when that person gets offended back.

	 Curtesy is a two way street.  Whether you want a door opened
	 or not, it's still your responsibility to be curteous about
	 not wanting it, if you expect people to be curteous about
	 accepting it back.

	 
>From some people's perspectives, opened doors (under some contexts)
>are not nice!  You can either accept their point of view or continue
>to get pissy because every woman in the world isn't accommodating
>itself to your point of view.

	 It is HER responsibility to communicate her objection.  If
	 she gets pissy about it, then it's damn straight the person
	 opening the door has the right to be pissy back.
	 
>	  I'm also very sorry if you feel that
>one set of ettiquette (sp?) rules is going to make everyone happy all
>of the time; I highly recommend that you forget that idea (or at least
>don't let it bother you when someone differs from popular opinion).  I 
>find it highly significant that many men are upset when women don't want 
>doors held open for them instead of dismissing it with an "Oh well!"

	 It's not being upset at women not wanting the door held open
	 for them, it's upset at women that feel men should be
	 clairvoyent about their wishes.

	 There is a distinct difference and I don't really believe
	 ANYONE in here is advocating the former.
	 

>Second, there are nice ways for women to tell men that
>they don't appreciate having the door held for them.  It's all in how
>it's said.  If a woman gently points out to a man that she doesn't
>want the door held open for her next time, then what's the problem?

	 Nothing.  But I've never once seen this happen.  Most oft I
	 see women going into a hissy fit about it...and berating the
	 man involved.

	 it IS a two way street and I think BOTH sides need to
	 remember that.

	 kathy

	 

>	 Curtesy is a two way street.  Whether you want a door opened
>	 or not, it's still your responsibility to be curteous about
>	 not wanting it, if you expect people to be curteous about
>	 accepting it back.

I agree with Kathy.  I consider myself a vociferous feminist, yet for
the life of me I can't figure out why a woman would get upset for the
simple fact that someone is holding a door for them.  Do they also get
upset if another woman holds the door for them?  I open doors for lots
of people, young and old, male and female.  It's not because I think I
have more strength or power than them (except for the extreme young or
extreme old), just because I think it's a nice gesture, and because I
enjoy being polite.  (The western US is *much* different from the east
coast as far as politeness and courtesy is concerned.)

Carla

    	Another feminist here...
    
    	Never in my life have I ever witnessed anyone (male or female)
    	get upset because a door was held open.  When someone holds a
    	door open for me, I say a nice "Thank you!" (and I hold doors
    	open for others as often as I can.)
    
    	If I ever run across a situation where someone *does* get upset
    	because I held open a door for them, I don't see any point in
    	letting it bother me.  I won't make a snide remark (or let the
    	door slam in the person's face.)
    
    	You never know what motivates complete strangers - perhaps the
    	person's Mother or Father died the night before (or maybe divorce
    	papers were just received, or the person was laid off his/her job.)
    
    	Just as no one can read the minds of others while considering
    	opening a door for someone, it's impossible to read the minds of
    	someone who fails to respond to the gesture with a "thank you."
    
    	If I held a door for someone and they frowned at me, I can imagine
    	how awful I'd feel if I sniped at the person for it (then read in
    	the paper the next day that the person's entire family had been
    	murdered the previous day, or something.)
    
    	It seems a lot kinder to give the benefit of the doubt to people
    	(especially strangers whose only crime is arriving at the door
    	the same time as me, whether they were in the mood to thank me
    	for opening the door or not.)  I don't open doors in order to
    	get thanks, anyway, so I don't expect to be rewarded for it.
    
    	As for what feminist women seem to think about this issue, I have
    	*YET* to meet a woman who objects to doors being opened for her
    	in real life situations (as long as the person doesn't RUN OVER 
    	the woman in order to beat her to the door.)  Even then, I doubt
    	the women I know would say anything about it.  I know I wouldn't.
    
    	- Suzanne

    I have only had a woman get upset once.  I held it open, she was two
    steps behind me, and she stopped dead, looked at me oddly and said, I
    can do it myself you know!:
    
    I merely stated back, "oh, sorry, I wasnt sure if you could handle it
    or not...." and mosied off.....
    
    I was both angy at her ignorance, yet laughing heartily inside.  I KNEW
    that she was frying inside, and THAT was what was so funny.
    
    

    
    	It must be wonderful to know what complete strangers think and feel
    	after one chance encounter lasting only seconds.
    
    	Most people's lives are far more complicated and three-dimensional
    	than others can comprehend with a simple glance.
    

    
    true, but then again, some aren't...

    Re: .51
    
    Gee, Mike, been listening to those "Head and Shoulders" ads lately? :-)
    You make it sound as if the only reason to do something nice for
    a woman is if you're going to ask her out on a date.
    
    
    I've never experienced having a woman noticeably offended by my holding
    a door for her, or extending some other courtesy.  Perhaps it's because
    I don't do it in a way that makes it look like I'm trying to make an
    impression.  I have detected some rather suspicious looks, though.  In
    this day and age, I can't blame them, not that I let that stop me from
    being courteous.  Given the all too common belief nowadays that "men
    only have one thing on their mind", I cheerfully offer a
    counterexample.
    
    					Steve

    Sometimes our first, intuitive impressions are the ones that we
    should take to heart.
    
    When we try to intellectualize about another's actions, we often
    end up only deceiving ourselves.
    
      Alan 

>	 If a woman doesn't want a man to open the door for her, she
>	 can't EXPECT him to be knowledgeable about that.  She must
>	 make the effort to say "No thank you, I'd rather open the
>	 door for myself."

I agree with this.  I think this is a courteous way of saying "no, 
thank you."  In my mind, I have not intended to defend a woman 
shouting at a man or accusing him of terrible things because he tried 
to hold a door open for her.  


[My comment about guys getting pissy when women don't "accommodate" 
them.]

>	 It is HER responsibility to communicate her objection.  If
>	 she gets pissy about it, then it's damn straight the person
>	 opening the door has the right to be pissy back.
	 
In general, Kath, I'm not talking about rights.  I agree completely 
that he "has the right" to get pissed back.  The point that I am 
trying to make is that the power to get pissed rests largely with the 
person getting pissed.  I'm just trying to point out to the men in 
this file that, if they are continually getting pissed at women 
getting disgruntled about their opening doors, that's a stressful way 
to be about life.  Bummer!  They might want to consider stop making 
opening doors for women so important.

...but of course they have "a right" to react.  My question is "how do 
you want to be about this"?  They seem to be answering "pissy!"

>	 It's not being upset at women not wanting the door held open
>	 for them, it's upset at women that feel men should be
>	 clairvoyent about their wishes.

I don't think that women are expecting men to be clairvoyant.  I think 
that they are angry that men assume automatically that opening the 
door for them is such a polite treat.  The men are attempting some 
clairvoyant stuff here, too.  They are operating on a lot of 
assumptions if they expect a woman to be grateful and to perceive 
their actions as valor or courtesy or kindness.  They initiated the 
action with a complete lack of communication.  In fact, if they get 
pissed back, I would say that they were operating on the unspoken 
agenda of "she'd better appreciate this."  Talk about a power play and 
a lack of genuine communication!

If we're going to slam the women for expecting clairvoyance (and I
think that, to some degree, they can be guilty of this), then we need
to call the men for doing the same thing. 

>	 But I've never once seen this happen.  Most oft I
>	 see women going into a hissy fit about it...and berating the
>	 man involved.

I've never seen a woman throw a hissy fit at having a door held open 
for them.  Yet, I've seen thousands of doors held open for thousands 
of men and women.  Either I'm unusual (;-)), or I'm constantly in the 
wrong place at the wrong time, or some men are making a big deal out 
of a few snarls from a few rude women.  Or maybe there is something 
here that I'm not seeing....



							--Ger

    	RE: .54  Ger
    
    	> In my mind, I have not intended to defend a woman shouting at a 
    	> man or accusing him of terrible things because he tried to hold 
    	> a door open for her.  
    
    	Never have I seen this sort of behavior in public (EVER!), nor
    	have I seen or heard any women feminists advocating anything CLOSE
    	to this.  (Just so we remember that this isn't an identifiable
    	"side" to this discussion - anywhere!)
    
    	All these mysterious women who object to doors being opened have
    	done a great job of hiding themselves from me all these years,
    	and from most other people I know, so their justifications for
    	engaging in this behavior are not available for analysis here.
    
    	> The men are attempting some clairvoyant stuff here, too.  They are 
    	> operating on a lot of assumptions if they expect a woman to be 
    	> grateful and to perceive their actions as valor or courtesy or 
    	> kindness.  They initiated the action with a complete lack of 
    	> communication.  In fact, if they get pissed back, I would say that 
    	> they were operating on the unspoken agenda of "she'd better 
    	> appreciate this."  
    
    	Now I'm wondering why most people open doors for others.  Is it
    	a polite gesture (with no expectations of a reward,) or is it meant
    	to force a level of personal interaction between strangers?
    
    	Myself, I open doors strictly as a way to make it through the
    	situation as easily and courteously as possible.  I don't look
    	carefully at the person who receives this kindness to guage
    	their reaction to me (ready to become angry if it doesn't meet
    	my expectations.)
    
    	If some people perceive doors being opened as a way to start a
    	mini-conversation - it's no wonder that some of them shy away
    	from making eye contact along with a verbal acknowledgement of
    	the act.
    
    	Not everyone in the world feels comfortable talking with complete
    	strangers in public (no matter HOW short the conversation!)
    
    	Do any of us have the right to *expect* that total strangers will
    	speak to us if we extend a small act of kindness towards them?
    	(I know that I don't expect it.  Now I really wonder if some
    	other people do.)

    
    	How in the heck did we get to the point of wanting to start a
    	mini-conversation (or for that matter full-blown)?? All I've
    	heard anyone say is they think it rude when they hold a door
    	open for a woman only to met with hostile comments. Maybe you
    	have never seen it Suzanne, but don't imply in your wording
    	that it doesn't happen. It may not happen everyday, but it
    	does happen. I hold doors for anyone behind me and have had
    	it happen a couple of times. I'm not talking about a suspicious
    	look, i'm talking about nasty verbal comments. I don't go out
    	of my way to rush ahead or linger there with the door open
    	for minutes just to do it, only when there is someone behind
    	me. I do feel it is extremly rude to let it close in someones'
    	face and I seek no thanks or even acknowledgement. I also don't
    	feel I should have to try to read anyone mind as to their motive,
    	just because I feel like being kind to another human being. If
    	they don't like it fine, but the kindness of my heart stops when
    	someone starts cutting at me for it, then I do tend to get rather
    	rude in return. I like to be polite to anyone that may cross my
    	path. But if it's rudeness as their choice, well, I can be in 
    	there with the best. ;^}
    
    	G_B
    	

    	RE: .57  George
    
    	Ok, then, how do you feel about drivers who don't wave thanks
    	when you let them cut in front of you?  How about if they give
    	you a nasty look?  (Some do - for whatever reason!)
    
    	Do you chase them down to give them the finger?  Do you assume
    	that they are unhappy people with serious "problems" with other
    	drivers?
    
    	Sure, I guess those assumptions are possible.  Why bother, though?
    	
    	What about people who *won't* let someone cut in on them while
    	driving?  Do you assume things about them (and give them the finger
    	or shake your fist?)
    
    	I'm not saying that you would do such a thing, George.  I'm just
    	having difficulty understanding why some people enjoy making snap
    	judgments about the lives/emotions of total strangers because of
    	the way they respond to a free act of kindness (that carries no
    	obligations.)

    
    	RE: .59  Mike Z.
    
    	Rape is a crime with verifiable statistics.
    
    	"Attitude" is a perception (often influenced by the "attitude"
    	of the person doing the perceiving.)
    
    	There's quite a difference between raping someone and refraining
    	from responding to a small public act in ways that meet the
    	expectations of the person performing the act.
    

    It's not the failure to respond to a man's holding a door open
    that's being discussed.
    
    Rather, it's the sometimes (virulent) negative attributes that
    get associated with a man's doing so, that most of us males are
    talking about.
    
    Let's not be too ingenuous. 
    
      Alan

    
    Hi Alan,
    
    	And I believe you're quite correct.
    
    							Hank
    
    
    ps Nice to see your notes around

    Hi, Hank.
    
    Nice to see yours around, too.
    
    And I believe your quite correct in believing I'm quite correct. :-)
    
      Alan

    
    	Let's not forget that the only person in this topic who has been
    	suggesting how opening doors could be "perceived" as negative is
    	also a male.
    

	RE: .61  Suzanne
        
    >>	Ok, then, how do you feel about drivers who don't wave thanks
    >>	when you let them cut in front of you?  How about if they give
    >>	you a nasty look?  (Some do - for whatever reason!)
    
    	Nope, if I let someone go ahead of me I expect nothing in
    	return, I do it only for the reason I FEEL IT IS BETTER TO
    	BE NICE TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING and not for any type of reward
    	and/or acknowledgement. Now, on the other hand, if I let 
    	someone go ahead of me and they then in turn stop and go out
    	of their way to yell at me, you're damn right I'll respond
    	in kind!! See the difference? I've had some women that might
    	not of really liked the door being held open, I'm not sure,
    	I say might not of liked it because they didn't give any
    	indication either way. Fine, and I'm sorry if they felt I
    	belittled them in some way. But, just as you asked me not to
    	guess their motive, so should they not also guess my motives.
    	What the ones who have responed with harsh comments have done
    	is to do just that. They assumed my motives were to belittle them
    	or what-ever.
    
    	
    >>	What about people who *won't* let someone cut in on them while
    >>	driving?  Do you assume things about them (and give them the finger
    >>	or shake your fist?)
    
    	What about them?? I'm not responsible for the actions of anyone
    	but myself. Nor is it my place or desire to assume their motives
    	or reasons. I simply let them go on their merry way, no biggie!!
    
    >>	I'm not saying that you would do such a thing, George.  I'm just
    >>	having difficulty understanding why some people enjoy making snap
    >>	judgments about the lives/emotions of total strangers because of
    >>	the way they respond to a free act of kindness (that carries no
    >>	obligations.)
    
    	Well, thanks for that comment Suzanne, I'm glad you're giving
    	me the benifit of the doubt. ;^)
    
    	I don't think we see it in the same light, (surprise, surprise):^)
    	as I don't view it as a snap judgement about the other person
    	in any shape. To me it's more with the actions. You're hostile
    	to me and I'll respond accordingly, same with kindness. If you're
    	indifferent (don't acknowledge in either direction) I just fade
    	away without giving it a second thought.
    
    	I hope I've been able to explain my views and get what I'm trying
    	to say across. Sometimes, I know what I want to say but have
    	trouble putting words to it.
    
    	G_B

    	RE: .67  George
    
    	Thanks for your explanation.
    
    	Personally, I don't see anything wrong with opening doors for
    	someone - or I wouldn't do it so often myself.  In our culture,
    	it's generally regarded as a common act of courtesy.
    
    	Until we hear from women who actually *engage* in the behavior
    	you've described, there's no way to speculate as to why someone
    	would do it.  In no way is it a common practice among a majority
    	of feminist women.
    
    	If you want to return what you regard as "rudeness" in public,
    	that's certainly your choice.  Myself, I would be less inclined
    	to notice or acknowledge it (unless it became common enough to
    	be considered a full-blown cultural trend, with arguments being
    	made by these individuals to justify their own actions.)

    	What evidence?  Videotapes?  Confessions?  
    
    	Evidence in what sense? :-)
    
    	All I'm saying is that responding negatively to a door being
    	opened is not a crime, and no woman who engages in such behavior
    	is available to ask why she does it - so any discussion about
    	the motives or emotions of such a person is pure speculation.
    
    	Total strangers are total strangers.  Who knows why a tiny minority
    	of people behave ungratiously when a kindness is extended towards
    	them?  We can make assumptions, but let's agree that's what they are.
    
    	It's definitely not a common practice for the majority of any specific 
    	political group, so it's a matter that involves the choice of a small 
    	minority of individuals (none of whom happen to be present for this 
    	discussion.)  
    
    	Without these individuals being present, we have no way of knowing
    	their specific reasons for engaging in this behavior.

     All I know is that I resent it when a man repeatedly makes a point
    of opening a door for me, but when it's not being made a point of
    how polite he is, I don't mind at all.
    
    ---kim

    I too would like to hear from a woman who responded negatively to
    someone opening a door from them.  Perhaps we'd get some insight into
    why it happened.  If George says that women have gotten angry at him
    for his opening a door, I believe him, but before blaming the woman
    I'd want to see the act from her perspective - perhaps in the
    act of opening the door, George did something she construed as
    offensive or threatening.
    
    I've opened doors for thousands of women (and men) in my life.  Usually
    I get thanks, not that I expect it.  NEVER have I been attacked for
    doing so.  What am I doing that George isn't, or vice versa?  (This
    is really a rhetorical question, since few of us, including myself,
    are so perceptive as to notice ourselves doing something that is
    taken askance by others, even though that was not our intent.  But
    I do want to suggest the possibility that those who encounter
    hostility to what seem to them to be selfless acts are not necessarily
    blameless.  I could list a number of examples from my own experiences.)
    
    				Steve

    	I entered a note in =wn= 18 months or so ago about the same
    circumstance. At the APO site, I saw a woman struggling with an
    armload of papers, a briefcase, and a pocketbook/shoulderbag about
    the size of a Subaru. She had an ankle length coat that was of a
    slippery type material and the paper stack was sliding around. I
    sensed that disaster was immenient. I trotted to get the door, figuring
    that she would probably lose evrything if she extended her arm.
    I was about 10-15' behind her and 20-25' from the door and I said,
    "Hold up, I'll get the door." I opened both sets of doors and let
    her pass. Once inside she turned (I thought to say "thanks") and said,
    "I don't need you or any other man to do what I can do myself" or
    something close to that. I was so surprised that I was speechless.
    The anger that welled up in me was incredible. I walked off, thinking
    I'll never open the door for a DEC woman again.......
    
    Ken

    
    It's unfortunate that this individual made such a remark in response
    to your kind gesture.  It's too bad that we have no way of knowing
    what prompted this person's seemingly inappropriate behavior.
    
    If opening doors for others has become too upsetting for you, then I
    don't blame you for refusing to do so.  No one is required to offer
    this kindness to anyone else.  It's strictly voluntary.
    
    If you don't open doors for people, it is likely that some other person
    will come along to open doors for others instead.  
    
    Another possibility is to ask, "Would you like me to get the door for
    you?"  My guess would be that the vast, vast majority of people would
    respond, "Yes, thank you!" (while the tiny minority of people who would
    object would be free to say, "No, thanks" and open the door themselves.)
    

The other day a little 2 year-old boy gallantly struggled to open a
video store door for me.  I wanted to hug him to say thank you, but
figured his mother would probably be alarmed.

I wonder when a desire to be polite to others begins ... and ends?

Carla

    Well, I'll bite.

    I am a woman who has, in the past, objected to a man holding a door 
    open for me.

    It happened something like this.  We were going through several 
    doors, and he opened the first one for me.  I said "Thank you", and 
    walked through.

    Since I was then ahead of him, I opened the next door for him.  He 
    just stood there, refusing to go through.

    "Go on,"  I said to him.

    "_I'm_ supposed to open the doors for _you_", he replied.  "Women
    aren't supposed to hold doors open for men".

    "If you can hold the door open for me, I can hold it open for you",
    I said (piqued, by this time).

    "Yes, but I don't have to go through it", he responded.

    "Fine", I said, and shut it in his face.

    He had the nerve to try to open the next door for me.  "no, thank you",
    I said.  He did not close the door.

    "This is the way it's supposed to be", he said.  "The man always holds
    the door open for the woman.  That's what my mother taught me."

    I think my response of "I don't need you or any man to hold doors open
    for me" was predictable, given the circumstances.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he's going around telling that story
    a little differently.  But guess what?  I really don't have a problem
    with men opening doors for me (especially if I'm using two arms to
    carry something!).  It happens a lot, and I almost always say "thank
    you", or "thanks".  And, since most men don't seem to object to my
    holding doors open for them either, it's No Big Deal.

    It's true, though, I don't _need_ anyone else to open those doors.
    But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate it.  

    If the man I got mad at is going through life talking about how he
    held a door open for a woman once and she got mad, so that's why he
    shuts doors in women's faces now... well, I guess he missed my point.
    I hope he's still holding doors open, despite my (ahem) lack of
    encouragement.  And hopefully he's also going through the doors that
    women hold open for him.  With luck, they're even hearing his thank 
    yous.
    
	Sharon
	

    re: .76
    
    I like to alternate 'em too... 
    if they open one, I like to open the next, and so on.
    feels more "even" that way.
    
    -Jody
    

    I agree with Sharon.  When men make large, awkward and obvious gestures
    and/or contortions to be SURE they get to the door first, it seems like
    more than "manners".  I too have known guys who've stood there at
    an opened door, (held by me - a woman), wondering what to do.  And I
    REALLY hate it when I'm walking with a colleague and he's using "dating
    rules" and always reaching for the door.  Manners are social grease in
    that they exist to provide smooth interaction between people.  When
    a man makes a giant leap or crosses in front of a woman or grabs the
    door away from her, his actions have the exact opposite effect and
    therefore cannot be called manners. He's doing it for some other
    reason, even if that other reason is, "I always thought it was good 
    manners".  Stop and think and use common sense - that's good manners.
                                           

    i suppose if a man were really obviously trying to show off his "good
    manners" by going to the extreme in opening doors, or walking curbside,
    or any number of other things he might do with so called "dating
    manners" (is the inference here that there are multiple sets of
    protocols or manners...one for dating, one for this, one for that?), it
    might become offensive to some.  (how's THAT for a poorly structured
    sentence?)
    
    But, and I quote from .78, "And I REALLY hate it when I'm walking with
    a colleague and he's using "dating rules" and always reaching for the
    door."...it seems to me that you are very sensitive to "smooth
    interaction".  
    
    My parents instructed me that men should pass through a door AFTER a
    lady, and should open said door FOR a lady, and should walk on the
    curbside WITH a lady.  These actions are second nature to me, and if I
    were your colleague on your walk, I would act towards you in the same
    manner.  I am consistent in that.  So, if you are "bothere" by it,
    perhaps you should be a bit more understanding of why I do it, and
    accept it for what it is and in the spirit in which these "manners" are
    offered.  I certainly don't intend to offend, so why should it be
    offensive?  Why question my motives?
    
    That's BAD manners!
    
    tony

    
    	Tony,
    
    	Did you ever stop to think assuming someone else to hold
    	your values and views is bad manners??
    
    	To me, it is bad manners in the extreamist to be told of
    	someones views and yet do a complete disregard for that
    	persons wishes. That is basically what you are telling
    	all the women here. "Hey, forget what YOU want, I want
    	it like this and YOU must accept it."
    
    	G_B

re: .80
        
    >	Did you ever stop to think assuming someone else to hold
    >	your values and views is bad manners??
    
    methinks you have misunderstood my meaning:
    
    >	To me, it is bad manners in the extreamist to be told of
    >	someones views and yet do a complete disregard for that
    >	persons wishes. That is basically what you are telling
    >	all the women here. "Hey, forget what YOU want, I want
    >	it like this and YOU must accept it."
    
    I would *NEVER* knowingly impose my sense of "manners" on someone else. 
    What I mean is that my initial reaction to a given circumstance is
    dictated by my "upbringing" and "conditioning" and what *I* perceive as
    good manners.  If, however, YOU indicate (frown, cuss, or otherwise)
    that you are bothered by what *I* do, then I will (if reasonable and
    possible) comply with your wishes...  
    
    What *I* don't understand is the loud complaining (whether verbal or
    facial/visual) that some people use when in this situation.  It
    indicates a lack of sensitivity on THEIR part.  Not mine.  I failed
    mind-reading 101 and am unable to predict YOUR reaction.  I just expect
    that you try to understand mine and if objectionable, let me know in a
    polite way.  
    
    In a previous note, I indicated frustration at the way SOME women react
    when I treat them in the way *I* was taught to.  Some complaineth
    loudly!
    
    tony

    Tony, I can appreciate what "training" you have had in regards to
    women.  I'd like you to examine that training a bit, though, and see if
    it applies to work situations, in which you said you would continue to
    adhere to your training.
    
    These kinds of "manners", (helping women with coats, doors, chairs,
    steering them down the street, ect), come from the days when women's
    clothing was so restrictive, for the most part they could NOT walk and
    hold a door at the same time or settle all their skirts into a chair
    unattended.  Women did indeed need help.  It carries over into modern
    times and is translated as simply "being nice" rather than continuing
    to carry with it the assumption that the lady is hampered.
    
    Now if that's the case, then shouldn't everyone "be nice" and open the
    door for anyone who is just a bit further away from the door than they 
    are?  If not, if it is believed that only men are supposed to "be nice"
    like this, then it does indeed imply that ladies are somehow
    "hampered".  So there you have it.  If you open a door for a woman, no
    problem.  But if you cannot have a woman open one for you, (or walk
    next tot the curb or whatever), then something more than manners is at 
    work - some underlying belief about the parties involved that makes one 
    more "required" to be nice to the other.  And this attitude is
    completely out of place with respect to coworkers.  Manners and being
    nice should exist only as far as it is expected to be reciprocal. 
    If/when a man goes further, when he does for a woman what he would
    never expect or want one to do for him, he is dealing with the social
    aspects of interaction between men and women which does not belong in a
    work setting between colleagues.  It may seem like no big deal to a man
    who stays "on top" when the social rules are being used.  But to women,
    the social rules have implications, (because that's why they were
    created), that women are less able, less capable of independent
    movement than men are.  So opening doors isn't the real issue.  The
    real issue is whether or not you can accept the same "courtesies" you
    offer. 

    
    	RE: .82  Sandy
    
    	> These kinds of "manners", (helping women with coats, doors, chairs,
    	> steering them down the street, ect), 
    
    	The phrase about "steering" women caught my eye.  I've always thought
    	it odd that some men do this (other than in a lover/wife/SO context.)
    
    	One day at the Supermarket, I noticed a man steering a woman through
    	the door (with his hand using the invisible steering wheel that women 
    	seem to have on the smalls of the back.)  ;^)  My first assumption
    	was that they were together (married, or whatever.)
    
    	The woman seemed somewhat annoyed about being touched on the small
    	of her back, and she didn't thank the man for the steer.
    
    	Once inside, I realized that they were complete strangers, and that
    	the man had touched the small of the woman's back in a way that had
    	made her uncomfortable.
    
    	Let's hope no one here thinks it's appropriate to touch the bodies
    	of complete strangers as a way of steering other humans through 
    	doors, or whatever.
    
    	One question I'd like to ask men, though:  Why would a man even
    	consider doing this to a woman he doesn't know?

    Re: .84
    
    Darned if I know.  I was completely mystified by the action as
    described in WOMANNOTES.  I've never done this, see no reason why
    I ever should, and have not noticed any others do this.  Maybe I
    should be on the lookout for it.
    
    			Steve

    
    you mean wymmin have power steering..?

    Yup.  Power brakes too.
    
    -Jody
    

>    	One question I'd like to ask men, though:  Why would a man even
>    	consider doing this to a woman he doesn't know?

 I haven't noticed this happening. I don't do this.

 I do remember that when I was a young boy, my dad would "steer" me by putting
his hand on the back of my neck, and I didn't like it. I've got to assume that
the "steerer" assumes the "steeree" is incapable of steering themselves.

 The Doctah

    
    I love being touched, yea even by complete strangers.  I have no
    problem with men Steering me around by the small of my back, it's when
    they pull me around by my nose that gets me a little miffed....
    
    Also - most men think that a woman't uterous is a lost item
    detector....  Honey, where is this, where is that?  
    
    

    
    I love people with strollers.  Like the ones in the other notes, they
    blunder their way along jabbing to the left, crushing to the right,
    slamming into the ankles of innocents in front, stopping on a dime for
    the ones behind them, in the stores they go down aisles that Olive Oyle
    would get her hips stuck in......I've seen them in stalls in ladies
    rooms.....what in Gawd's name are they DOING in there?  Nursing or
    something?  
    
    There auto be a law......
    

    
    Well what are you going to do when you get to the home and get your
    own self driven stroller huh Gina????
    

    
    Hey Borda.....there's a world of diff between STROLLERS and sleek,
    chrome and pink racing wheelchairs with the racing stripes, lambswool
    seatcovers.....and the aooga horn........
    

    
    Well just how did you rate to get the AOOOGA horn...got friends
    on the inside or sumthin...
    

    
    I am not telling ....... however, it's the same person that got me the
    pink diapers.........  So there!  Plus I have a white feather boa all
    around the top of the seat.  I shall look like a movie star....and yiou
    won't - so there...........
    

    	A few days ago in Germany I was told that the man should always go
    first in case there was any danger. To allow the woman to go first was
    showing not only impoliteness but also cowardice.