Conference quark::mennotes-v1

My advice:

	o  Clearly communicate what you want in the short term and 
	   what you are aiming for in the long run.  (For instance,
	   "I want to get married someday, but, right now, I'm happy 
	   just dating.")

	o  Get your partner to communicate the same thing.  This may 
	   be difficult if your partner hasn't thought these things
	   through, yet.

	o  Be very clear with yourself and with your partner whether
	   you are willing to wait for further commitment.  If you
	   are willing to wait, be very explicit as to how long you
	   are willing to wait.  (For instance, "Why don't we put
	   this aside for a few months.  But, since it's important
	   to me, I want to bring up this topic again to see if
	   there is any progress.")


In my opinion, the worst heartaches are caused by people not being
clear about what they want, and the bitterness that someone feels when
s/he "waited around too long" for the other partner only to be let
down.  If you can live with 6 months of indecision, then why wait one 
and a half years for someone who might bag you?

Also, a note from my therapist: many people put off committing until 
they "are ready" or until they "get their individual stuff together."
Sometimes, not being ready is a good reason (for instance, if you've 
only ben seeing someone for a very short period of time).  However, a 
lot of times people seem to want to clean up individual "messes" 
before entering into a committed relationship.  You can't prepare for 
commitment 100%, because a lot of it can only be learned by jumping in 
and doing it.  Also, a good partner can help a person to get 
individual stuff together; that doesn't have to be done alone.

							--Gerry

    A book written in 1987, out in paperback, by Steven Carter titled
    "Men Who Can't Love" might be worth checking out for your reading
    list on this situation you are experiencing.  It is about men not
    being able to make committments and running away from them.  It is
    written FOR women to better understand one aspect of some males.

    justme....jacqui

    Hi ... I am not sure I fully understand your situation.  Is it fear on
    his part of making a commitment?  Anyway, here are some thoughts about
    the situation, for whatever they're worth:
    
    -- FREEDOM vs. COMMITMENT.  These concepts need not be at odds with
       each other.  One can still have a commitment without sacrificing 
       freedom or individuality.  Is it his feeling that freedom is lost
       in commitment?  Is it yours?  Might be something worth exploring.
    
    -- OPENING UP.  My experience has been that most females -- not to 
       generalize or stereotype -- learn at a very early age to verbalize
       their feelings.  Many females are very well versed at putting into
       words most everything they feel.  Most men however -- again, this is
       just my opinion and do not mean to generalize -- learn at much
       slower rates.  And the learning process for men continues well into
       adulthood.  Men cannot be forced to learn how to "open up" beyond
       the pace that is most comfortable for them.  Also, IMO, women
       usually cannot "teach" men how to open up, unless they themselves
       begin to express feelings at the same pace/rate men do.  Therefore,
       this guy might want to consider a mens support group, where he might
       feel more "safe" in an environment where there are other men who are
       more or less on the same learning curve, who have the same
       difficulties, and who are progressing at a similar pace.  Moreover,
       if he sees it is OK that other men "open up," he may realize it
       is OK for himself.
    
    -- YOUR OWN INTERESTS.  In situations like this, it might be wise
       to make sure that your OWN needs are being met in the short term.
       Too often I see women put their own needs on hold, waiting months,
       often years, for men to "change" and act/behave in ways the women
       want them to act/behave.   So... be careful... and perhaps pay
       more attention to the here and now.  Look out for your own
       individual interests/needs in the here and now AS WELL AS the long
       term.
    
    Just my 2 cents.  Hope this helps.
    Paul
     

I thought base note laid out the issues quite clearly.  Having been in a 
similar situation, I'll add my two cents...

Sure there's confusion.  On one hand there is deepening and growing love 
that means much.  However, accepting and going with that love into a 
committed relationship may have a major price.  He may want children of 
his own, for example.

Sounds to me like he's confused.  He has found a real and serious love - 
but it's not like he always thought it would be.  So go with the 
opportunity at hand - or move on and find something closer to what he 
has already imagined - that appears to the question.

It's not easy to resolve.

If however, a commitment it important to you, then you need to set a 
reasonable deadline for yourself.  Maybe 3 months, maybe 6 months, maybe 
a year - whatever works for you.  If at the end of that time, he can't 
decide to commit for the long term, then you need to start transitioning 
the relationship to its next stage - which might be "just friends' or it 
might mean a complete break.

Best wishes to the both of you,
Bob

    
    Face it. Some men have no souls. 

    Well, I am not a man, however, I do have some similarities as the
    basenoter, so maybe I can shed some light on what *I* personally have
    experienced when it comes to men dating women with children.

    I have found it also depends on how many kids you have and their age
    also. Most men seem okay with one child when that child is at a younger
    age (where younger = 2,3,4)...

    I have two children at home, ages 11 and 13. I have found that most
    guys are VERY uncomfortable with that.  Even ones that seem to really
    love me, can't accept the responsibilities of the two girls. What I find
    is that they tend to forget that the children are soon to be gone (look
    back on the last 7 years of YOUR life...  how fast did it run by?)... I
    have had to fight prejudices of "What is my mother going to think, how
    can I tell my parents"...  Sometimes I am REALLY glad I didn't have
    sons, I'd HATE to have that maternal hold on boys for the REST of MY
    life... why is it that men can't ever seem to cut the umbilical cord?

    I find that men also forget that I have been very well supporting both
    the kids in a manner that is acceptable to all of us. I have a darn
    good salary... My girls dress very well, eat very well, and have some
    expensive hobbies, and I can still afford to put money in savings each
    month.  I'd don't want a male in my life to help with them, if I date,
    I want someone in my life to enhance the enjoyment that I am getting
    out of life.

    I have had many a "good" friendship with a man, can do anything, talk
    about anything, go anywhere (even a last minute trip out of the state
    on a weekend) at anytime, all the things that a truly single female can
    do, but when it comes to even thinking about being serious, it seems to
    ruin the friendship **every** time... and it seems to ruin the
    relationships, that are clear relationships from the very beginning..

    Guys seem to have an inherent fear of being serious with a female with
    children...  I have known only a VERY VERY few (one is a noter in this
    file I believe), that has married a woman with kids...  My deep respect
    for them truly goes out, because I feel they are the ones that have
    reached something very special in their lives.

    I have heard many guys talking about a female with kids, and have them
    say "She's really {fill in the adjective you'd like here}, BUT, I
    wouldn't go out with her, she has kids...  well.. guess what.. kids
    aren't lepers..  They are loving, giving souls, they are many tears,
    many joys, many rewards. They make a relationship extremely special,
    and add many dimensions to it... But these guys won't even give it a
    chance...  I think the neatest time for me was watching my 13 year
    old when she was 11ish, and a guy, heads put together working REALLY
    hard on a science project.. they giggled more than two females together
    EVER could...  I think he was more proud of the finished project then
    SHE was :-)...

    To answer your question...  I'd do the same thing that I have had to
    do...  just walk away... cut off all ties to him...  he knows where you
    live, he knows your phone number, and he knows your ENET address...
    but let him know you still care...  if he comes back around, you'll
    know he's there because he *really* wants to be. If he doesn't come
    back, then just pick up the pieces, and go forward,...

I'm not a betting man, but I would put money down on the fact that the 
guy in .0 has a soul.  I would say that it would be a safe bet to say 
that he's probably a relatively nice guy.


							--Ger

    .5
    
    Can you elaborate?  What does that mean?
    
    Paul
    

    Re .5, so true.
    
    Lorna
    

    I have been in the situation that you describe and my advise to you is
    give it time and don't push!!
    
    I first met my wife in January 1989. She has three kids; a boy aged 15,
    a girl aged 9 and another boy aged 8. For the first six months
    I displayed the symptoms that you describe in the base note. My wife is
    seven years older than I am, I have never been married and was very
    unsure, not of my love for my wife, but of whether I could handle being
    an immediate father of three kids as well as a husband.
    
    As I said at the beginning, don't push it. Just give him time to
    adjust. Also don't try to push the kids either onto him or into the
    back seat! Allow him the time to get to know them and for them to work 
    that special kind of magic that only kids have. Above all, be yourself!!
    Do NOT change anything in your routine life to accomodate him. Let him 
    fit in with you. Changing things only generates pressure on him because 
    he thinks that he is the cause (as he is!!) and resentment from the kids 
    because the status quo is distrurbed.
    
    It is more difficult for a man to join an existing family; not only
    does he have to learn to love you but he also has to learn to love the
    kids. If he can't do that then the relationship will never work.
    Setting deadlines is BAD. It puts even more pressure on him and
    increases the longing to be unattached again. Just try to make him part
    of the family and, after a while, he'll become as comfortable with
    family life as any husband and father. Then you can think about a more
    permanent relationship (i.e. marraige). Try a few family outings at
    first maybe to the park and then later for long weekends etc. Also if
    you can try to get away without the kids for long weekends and give
    both of you a break!!
    
    Anyway, I hope it goes well. Mine certainly did and although I did have
    a lot of adjusting to do, it is most definitely worth it!
    
    If you have specific questions, send me a mail and I'll try some more
    self-psycho-analysis.
    
    Andy
                         

    For a year, I dated a woman with two teenagers.  She was older than
    me, the kids were 19 and 15.  I was 33 when the relationship started,
    34 when it ended.  We had some initial problems at first until the
    kids and I got to know each other and feel comfortable with each
    other, but then it was fine.  The children weren't the reason for
    the breakup.
    
    I did get some interesting comments from my siblings (I'm the oldest
    of 6), my mother was very accepting of the situation and when I
    first told my dad about the circumstances, he sort of looked at
    me like I'd grown a second head or something - but then he adjusted
    and accepted too.
    
    I'd do it again in a minute.
    
    John

    My wife is 6 years older than I am.  However, if no one told you, you'd
    never know it.  The first three years of your relationsip was much
    like described in .0.  The only difference was that my wife doesn't
    have any chidren of her own.  I had a LOT of old garbage left over
    from my last marriage and had a real fear of getting back into a
    no-win situation.  I had to wait until I KNEW that marriage was what
    I wanted.  If you go into a 'commitment' without knowing that that
    IS what you want,  you will likely spend a lot of time looking over
    your sholder, and the relationship will have an even greater chance
    of failing in the long run.  One day I realized that I had already 
    made the commitment without really realizing it (there wasn't any 
    place else that I rather be, and anyone else I'd rather be with than 
    her), and I knew that this was a woman that I *could* spend the rest
    of my life with.  I know that that sounds rather second-fiddleish, 
    but if there is anyone else you'd rather be with and any place else 
    you'd rather be, then the realtionship is doomed.  We've been married 
    going on six years now, and the *partnership* is still going strong.
    
    I admire her courage and understanding.  When we met I had no job
    and no future.  She stuck beside me through some nasty divorce/custody
    proceedings (my ex and I were already separated), through some pretty
    lean times, and through college.  I had to deal with a lot of emotional
    problems caused by my first divorce and the loss of my own children.
    But it seems that there was 'something' she saw in me that made her
    keep it together until I could work things out.  I don't think a
    younger, less understanding woman could have dont that.
    
    fred();

    Patience, patience.  Take it as a good sign that the guy is
    conscious and aware enough for the concept of "commitment"
    to mean a lot to him.  Would you prefer somebody to sign up
    to marry you with no thought to what that would really mean
    in his life?  He needs your understanding and love, not
    ultimatims.  Love him and trust the gods.

    At the same time, you can't be left hanging forever.  I guess
    I'd encourage him to perhaps get some personal counseling, go
    to some workshops, etc. to help him sort out his head.  But
    at some point, you may need to say, "I need a commitment by
    .... because I can't wait forever."  At some point, no decision
    is a decision.  I guess it depends on your intuition when that
    point is.  There's no simple answer.  Counseling for you might
    help you decide where you're at in the relationship, too.
    
    I had a heck of a time deciding to get married.  The agony of
    your boyfriend sounds very reminiscent.