Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    1.) Yes, many men are shy. 
    
    2.) Certainly asking cannot hurt. He may have been waiting 
        to be asked. 
    
        Then again, he may not...

 Yes, many men are shy.

>    I often wonder, so many times men will show strong interest in
>    a woman but they will never ask them out, or they will just flirt
>    with them.  I also notice that these men  get very jealous when
>    the woman they show interest in date another man.  WHY?? 

 Because, while they are interested in the woman, they are afraid of being
turned down. Instead of just getting it over with, they hang around, flirt,
etc, looking for a sign that indicates they won't get turned down. If the sign
never comes, they won't ask (unless they find the courage somewhere). It is
a blow to the ego to be told "I am not interested in you." 

>    Also do men dislike strong or aggressive women??

 It depends to what degree, I suppose. Personally, I am attracted to women who
are aggressive and sure of themselves. 

 The Doctah

    Most men are not shy.  The reason they hang around and flirt instead
    of asking a woman out may be because that is the extent of their
    interest in that woman, i.e., she may be fun to shoot the shit with,
    and flirt with, when there's nothing better to do, but she's not
    really desirable enough to bother taking on a date.  That's what
    I think anyway.
    
    Lorna
    
   

I can be very shy sometimes. Some men are shy all the time, I think ALL men are
shy some of the time.

But what means "shy"? Embarrassed, unsure, selfconscious? Is shy always quiet?
It can take a lot to care enough to be shy.


	Really,
	-- Charles

    In my teens, there were social gatherings for us youngsters where
    the girls stayed in one group and the lads in another. The walk
    back to the lads after asking a girl to dance and being rejected
    leaves one bad memory.  Not something to be repeated without some
    serious thought. 
    
    

    There are also some men who would like to ask a woman out, but don't
    know whether or not she is already seeing someone.  There is also the
    possibility that she has no interest in men.  So, men may be more
    confused than shy.

    IMHO, I think SOME men aren't shy, they just don't want to bruise their
    ego in the event they get turned down.
    
    -Dotti.

    From what I remember of my past, maybe it was my ego that ws bruised
    but whatever it was it left an impression.  I don't recall having
    an ego at the time but that does not mean it wasn't there.
    
    Are more men shyer than women?

    
>    Are more men shyer than women?


	How would you measure shyness?

	kits

    Some men are shy, just as some women are shy, though perhaps more
    so men than women.  Shyness is a pattern of behavior generally
    stemming from a low self-image.  The shy individual is not 
    confident about himself/herself with respect to social interactions.
    
    Why are men often shy (i.e., lack confidence)?  Usually it is
    based upon previous experiences that have been negative.  Perhaps
    he was not an early developer (women mature a couple of years sooner
    anyhow), is at the school dance, asks a young lady to dance, is
    turned down, and feels the sting for quite a while.
    
    Why do men often show interest in a woman, but not ask her out?
    Perhaps he feels uncomfortable with the social setting.   Women
    often attend parties, dances, and other events in pairs or groups.
    A man can feel a little intimidated approaching a "pack" of women.
    Why do women feel it necessary to huddle in small groups at social
    gatherings?
    
    Another reason that a man may show interest but not ask a woman
    out is that he may not feel as though he is getting strong enough
    "signals".  Women are often subtle (and even astute) in their 
    non-verbal language;  maybe the fellow in question is not picking
    up on your cues.  And perhaps she makes the cues subtle so that she
    does not give the impression of being "forward" or "assertive" or
    "unladylike".  Why not try giving more definite cues?
    
    Your thoughts are welcomed.
    
    
    

    
    re .8
    
    Sounds like MOST women do that... When was the last time anyone
    saw a woman put her ego on the line?
    
    They sit back and let the man take the chance, as they always have...
    
    Don't tell me about fragile egos....
     

    
    Re .12
    
    Personally, I'd be happy to put my ego on the line.....
    
    I have asked a few male friend though how they feel about being
    approached by women rather than doing the approaching - the majority
    (4 out of 5) said that they were still uncomfortable with that
    although they felt that they shouldn't be (?).
    
    So I reckoned that, although one man (or five) can never represent
    Everyman, maybe the majority of men (including the one I'd like
    to ask out) are still more uncomfortable with women approaching
    them than they are with taking the risk themselves....
    
    Is this a wrong assumption?
    I'd be really pleased if it is.....
    
    'gail (who'd honestly like to know)
    

    RE .13
    
    I don't think it would bother me to have a woman ask me out...I
    would be *very* surprised though as that is not the way it usually
    happens. I am not saying this is the wrong way to go about it as
    I think I would prefer it that way!
    
    I think the point made about mens' shyness being caused by previous
    experience is right. This is what has happened to me in the past
    and it does knock you back.
    People could become socially retarded because of it if they took
    the experience hard enough.
    
    James (this is my first note in here for probably a year!)
    

I'm not quite clear as to what it means to "put my ego on the line."  
Could you guys elaborate a little bit?

One example of putting ego on the line is asking someone to go out 
with them on a date.  Maybe men do this more than women, but that's 
changing, since it's now okay for women to ask men out.  

If men "put their egos on the line," could it be that many women "put 
their egos aside"?

I'm not trying to say that one is better than the other.  I'm just 
trying to see if there is a group difference going on here.

							--Ger

    Re.  Robert Holt
    
    That's not entirely true.  I'm willing to bet that women are just
    as rejection - leery as men  (standard not all blah blah but some,
    blah blah blah disclaimers apply).
    
    I was never willing to put my ego on the line because I was shy.
    I've been called out on it, too, but still, it was the fear of
    rejection that made me not ask men out, not because I felt it was
    THEIR 'duty' to ask me out.  In fact, I figured since no men did
    ask me out, to ask them out would be double rejection.
    
    So while some women do think it's the men's job to ask them out,
    and some men think it IS their job to ask women out (ie, are
    uncomfortable the other way around), SOME women don't think it is
    the men's job to ask them out and simply don't ask them out because
    they are just as not willing to bruise their ego as some men are.
    
    "What I don't know won't hurt me."
    
    ---kim

    I'm sure glad being approached by a woman never bothered me.  ALL of
    the women that I dated more than once or twice asked me out first.  I
    guess I didn't take hints well. :-)  Good thing the last woman to
    approach me did since we're getting married in September.  So now,
    every time a woman asks me if I think it's OK to ask a man out, I tell
    them to go for it.  What have you got to lose?  If you wait for him to
    ask, it sounds like a long wait.  If you scare him off, maybe he never
    intended to ask anyway.                          
    
    						John  

    re:  12  TRNSAM::HOLT
    
    You may be right, but when I made that statement, I was referring
    specifically to the header of this topic:  ARE MEN SHY?
    
    If you would like to discuss:  ARE WOMEN SHY? then maybe I'll make
    another statement....with disclaimers of course #:-)
    
    -Dotti.

    I feel men in general are shy in an askout situation..afraid of
    being turned down or looking foolish.  I think its something of
    one ability to put the male barriers aside and being vulnerable.
                  
    Personally:
    
    On approach I am very skitish of a situation where she is not by
    herself and I may look foolish or over agressive.  I fear rejection 
    and embarassment.
    
    On being approached - boy I wish it would happen more often.  I like
    being approached, sends a nice message across that maybe I'm 
    attractive and greater self worth.  Sometimes in the right situation
    its like be bathed in interest and discovery.
    
    jim                                                        

I don't think a lot of men are all that shy, or if they are, they
hide it. 

However - I much prefer being asked out (almost never happens), 
for much the same reason as Jim gave in .19, and in part because 
I am a bit shy about asking someone out.

M

    I must confess that the last woman who asked me out, several years
    ago now, is my wife. We celebrate our first anniversary next month.
    
    It's re-assuring that I'm married to a woman who knows her own mind,
    she may be wrong sometimes but I'll always get an opinion from her.
    I may not like it either but that's life.
    Though there are times when she needs someone to lean on, so it
    works both ways.
    
    I'm not as shy now as I used to be. Probably because, whatever happens,
    I can go home. I'd say a greater percentage of single people are
    shy than people in relationships, FWIW.
    

    
    Drawing conclusions here.....
    
    From the last few replies, would it be accurate to say that women
    who "make the first move" are seen as generally strong, self-confident,
    warm, outgoing......
    
    And therefore the men who would respond favourably to that would
    be the ones who are self-confident enough to value "strong" women?
    
    Erm....maybe they're the ones who'd be confident enough (or fear
    rejection less? fewer past knocks?) to ask women out in the
    first place?
    
    'gail (slightly confused)
    
    

    Well thank you for all your opinions.  
    
    I agree with most of them.  What really boils my butt is that some
    men think these women that make the first move are pushy, easy, ect.
    When IMO these women are just tired of waiting for them to make
    a move and take it upon themself to do something about it.  Now
    I do not see anything wrong in seeing what I want and going for
    it.              
    
    As for the ego,,,,,,,,well i have been turned down by men, hell
    that is just part of life, however it does not stop me from asking
    again.  Is the male ego more fragile then the female ego??
    
    
    
    

>Is the male ego more fragile then the female ego??

 Maybe.

    I've never understood the "ego" thing, either.  If a man thinks asking
    a woman out is putting his ego on the line, I think it kind of suggests
    a couple of assumptions - that either a), all women will date any man so
    if this particular one says no there must be something particularly
    wrong with themselves, or b) there is absolutely nothing at all going
    on in her life that would make her turn me down, except of course,
    something about ME.
    
    Both attitudes seem off the mark at best, self-centered at worst.  If
    you truly believe that people have full lives with all kinds of things
    going on, then why do men often interpret a 'no thank you' as a 
    personal rejection?  You can't do that unless you see yourself at the 
    center of everything or at least at the center of women's lives.
    
    I've asked men out, no problem.  I've sent drinks in bars and opened
    conversations.  Some turn me down, some don't.  My current sweetie
    didn't!  ;-)  I don't expect every man is going to fall all over me so 
    when one doesn't, I don't slink away feeling like useless pond scum.  
    For heaven's sake!
    
    Is it that such men are very self-centered or is it that they've been
    socialized to see women as these ethereal creatures with extraordinary
    powers and perceptions?  Whichever, many of them seem to bring an awful
    lot of personal baggage to the simple idea of suggesting an outing with
    someone they find attractive and/or interesting.  
    
    I see shyness more often as an excessive preoccupation with oneself
    rather than low self-esteem.  Maybe those guys who slink away feeling
    like scum are projecting their own hidden agendae onto the situation -
    perhaps their motives were on the scummy side to begin with and a 'no'
    simply makes them feel exposed.  I'd be "shy" about approaching someone 
    with a sleazy proposition in mind and a light, breezy offer of a date as 
    a camouflage.  But to offer to treat someone to a movie or a concert or a
    dinner?  If they're busy, gay, married, uninterested - so what?  None
    of that means I'm scum or foolish.  And if they respond with anything
    crueler than a 'no thank you', it is clearly THEY who are scum.  Could
    it be that men think of themselves and their desires as inherently
    sleazy and that any date-asking is betraying their sleaziness which
    then *requires* that a woman "help" them deal with it either by saying
    yes, (so they can put their desires safely back under cover until the
    goodnight kiss scene), or at least by saying a gentle no with a LOT of
    ego stroking and open acceptance of the "inherent sleaziness" of his
    question?  Shyness is the behavior.  The motivations for it are many.
    
    I've always hated the "shy" guy who asks for a date "sometime".  You 
    know, "You wanna get together sometime?"  That to me translates into, 
    "If I asked you out would you say yes?"  Talk about insecure!  What if
    I say "yes"?  What's the answer?  "Oh - I was just wondering"???
    I always answer, "You'll have to ask me out to find out".
    
    I just don't see approaching the opposite sex as any big deal.  It's
    what we're programmed to do!  It's what got us here in the first place!
    If your "datee" is uptight with real life, move on!  Time's a' wastin'!

    
>>    Note 428.26  by GEMVAX::CICCOLINI 
    
>>    I've never understood the "ego" thing, either.  If a man thinks asking
>>    a woman out is putting his ego on the line, I think it kind of suggests
>>    a couple of assumptions - that either a), all women will date any man so
>>    if this particular one says no there must be something particularly
>>    wrong with themselves, or b) there is absolutely nothing at all going
>>    on in her life that would make her turn me down, except of course,
>>    something about ME.
    
  	I think your assumptions are off the mark. I can another choice 
    	which might be closer to the mark (atleast in my experience):
    
    	c) he asks, she rather than saying "No thank You" feels she
    	   must add something like "anyways, why would **I** want to
    	   date a <you fill in the blank> like **YOU**, do **I** look
    	   like **I** couldn't find a date on **MY** own".
    
>>    then why do men often interpret a 'no thank you' as a 
>>    personal rejection?
    
	See the above.
        
    
>>    Is it that such men are very self-centered or is it that they've been
>>    socialized to see women as these ethereal creatures with extraordinary
>>    powers and perceptions? 
    
    	None of the above, want to talk self-centered, in my opinion,
    	it is often the women that have this. Why else would they feel
    	they have to go so far out of the way to put down the man when
    	he does ask them out?
    
    

    
>    Both attitudes seem off the mark at best, self-centered at worst.  If
>    you truly believe that people have full lives with all kinds of things
>    going on, then why do men often interpret a 'no thank you' as a 
>    personal rejection?  You can't do that unless you see yourself at the 
>    center of everything or at least at the center of women's lives.
    
Interesting.  I agree with the spirit of what you were saying, but I 
keep tripping up on the word "self-centered."  To me, a self-centered 
person views the world only in a way that suits the person; it is an 
external projection.  In my experience with men (including me) whose 
egos are bruised when rejected, the act of "feeling like pond scum" is 
an _internalization_ of what has happened in the outside world.  

It is similar to self-centeredness in its focus, but the dynamics are 
very different, in my opinion.  In one case, the self is the source of 
all.  In the other case, the self is the dumping ground for all.  

I also think that asking "Are men's egos frailer than women's?" 
is asking the wrong question.  I think we are both human and have 
equal egos.  The more interesting question to me is, "Why do men feel 
that asking someone out requires putting a lot of ego on the line?  
Why don't women put their egos on the line in the same situation?"

I guess I come at it from a different perspective.


						--Gerry

    I have to admire those who have such high self esteem that rejection
    simply never bothers them.  I wish I were always so self-confident
    myself.  Unfortunately, when someone doesn't experience a problem, such
    as shyness, it is sometimes easy to disparage the motives of others who
    do.  Those who don't live up to one's own superior standards are
    therefore "self-centered", or their motives are "sleazy".

    I think the basic rule is, if you can't walk in other people's shoes,
    insult them.  It kind of reminds me of the line from the old Talking
    Heads song:  "They say compassion is a virtue, but I haven't got the
    time."

    -- Mike
    

    Having had the privledge of having Mike Valenza stay at my home
    last fall, I think I can attest that he is definitely 'shy' and
    definitely 'not arrogant'. (and I think my husband and kids would
    concur).
    
    Bonnie

    
    	Re: .30 Mike
    
    	I have to applaud your note. I was wondering how to reply
    	to .26 but your note expressed how I feel about just fine,
    	with one exception, I don't in the least admire people
    	who are so quick to assign malice and denigration to others.
    
    
    							Hank

    Re .26, wow, Sandy I usually find myself agreeing with you, but
    not this time.
    
    First of all, it *seems* to me that you have little or no understanding
    what it feels like to be shy.  I have met you, and read a lot of
    your notes, and I consider you to be a very outgoing, confident
    person.  I don't think you started off life feeling naturally shy
    about much of anything, so I don't think you know how difficult
    it can be to overcome.  I have not met very many people whom I would
    consider to be more shy than myself, so I think I know quite a bit
    about how it feels.  If I can't force myself to do something I'm
    really afraid to do, in a "cool" manner, then I don't do it.  I'd
    rather have people think I'm a stuck-up snot than a bumbling idiot.
     If this makes me miss out on any relationship in life, it's my
    choice.
    
    Of course, there are things I feel more shy about than approaching
    the opposite sex (such as public speaking, being the first on a
    dance floor in a club, etc.)  But, talking and flirting with men
    is a lot different than actually asking one out *for the first time.*
     I feel more comfortable about asking out someone who has already
    asked me out in the past.
    
    I would never, in a million years, be able to get up the guts to
    buy a strange man a drink!  For one thing, I'd be afraid that he
    would interpret me as a pick-up, and not as a potential friend or
    relationship.
    
    The thing is, when I think about asking someone out on a date, I
    think of it as "putting my ego on the line", too, and I'm a woman.
     I still have an ego, tho, and I'd have to fight against feeling
    "personal rejection" if I was turned down.
    
    I think the only difference between men asking women out and
    vice-versa, especially for people around my age (40), is that when
    we were young, men were the ones who were *supposed* to do the asking.
     We women weren't supposed to ask men out.  We were supposed to
    try to look good enough, and act appealing enough, to inspire them
    to ask us out.  Because of this, most women didn't get any practice
    in being rejected whereas the men were forced to ask (or nobody
    would have ever gotten together), so I assume that by the time a
    man is in his 30's or 40's he must be much more used to dealing
    with rejection than I am.  I haven't actually dealt with it much,
    because I haven't ever done much of the asking.  I've only imagined
    how awful it must feel.
    
    Sandy you mentioned that shyness strikes you as an "excessive
    preoccupation with self."  Perhaps in a way it is, if you consider
    that shy people may spend a lot more time worrying about something
    they have to do, such as giving a presentation or asking someone
    out on a date.  But, this preoccupation is not a *choice*.  It's
    more like a disease that some people are born with and we have to
    fight it all the rest of our lives, just like some people have to
    fight addiction to drugs or alcohol, or gaining weight.  Nobody
    decides to be shy.
    
    Lorna
    

>If a man thinks asking
>    a woman out is putting his ego on the line, I think it kind of suggests
>    a couple of assumptions - that either a), all women will date any man so
>    if this particular one says no there must be something particularly
>    wrong with themselves, or b) there is absolutely nothing at all going
>    on in her life that would make her turn me down, except of course,
>    something about ME.

 c) I am out in front of everybody, people know what I'm doing; if I get shot
down in flames not only do I have to deal with the rejection but I also get
to enjoy the fact that everyone can see the smoke trail I leave on the way down.
;^)

>If
>    you truly believe that people have full lives with all kinds of things
>    going on, then why do men often interpret a 'no thank you' as a 
>    personal rejection? 

 It _is_ often a personal rejection. She's looking for someone but not someone 
that looks like me.

 Additionally, some people have such low self esteem that they never even think
of the less personally rejecting reasons why they'd be turned down. They always
think of the worst possible case: something must be deficient in me.

>    I see shyness more often as an excessive preoccupation with oneself
>    rather than low self-esteem.

 I don't think so.

>    I just don't see approaching the opposite sex as any big deal. 

 Alot of people do.

 The Doctah

    
    	I agree with Lorna in .34 (very well said!!!).
    
    	G_B

>         do men dislike strong or aggressive women??

Strong or aggressive in what ways and to what extent?

I feel that aggressiveness beyond a certain level or in certain situations
is a negative trait in people of either gender.


>    I often wonder, so many times men will show strong interest in
>    a woman but they will never ask them out, or they will just flirt
>    with them.

What type of behavior do you consider to be a display of strong interest?


Perhaps it's because I'm shy, socially inept, etc. -- but I've never
understood the concept of asking a (relative) stranger out for a date.

Several replies to this topic have discussed how men feel about being
expected to ask women out on a date.  I've often wondered how women feel
about being the constant target of these requests, which may come
from total strangers or in situations which aren't really social.  I
would think that most women don't find rejecting a request for a date
any more pleasant than a men feels being rejected.

Interestingly enough, although this is one reason I don't ask women out,
I keep waiting for someone to ask me.  Go figure...

	- Jerry

I just discovered this conference a few days ago, and am getting into
the topic pretty late.  I have always considered myself shy (not
terminally shy, but shy enough to have missed many opportunities).

When I ask a lady for a date, an explicit and honest rejection is, to 
me, the second-best outcome.  What I'm really trying to find out is
whether the lady is interested in me, whether we might have some kind
of future.  If she says something like, "thanks for the interest, I'm
really glad you asked, but I'm {too busy/spoken for/...whatever} right
now", I've blown my cover and I haven't really learned what I wanted to
know.  This can create an extremely awkward situation if the lady 
is someone you have to see every day (like at the office--and most of the 
women whom I meet and get to know well enough to become interested in,
I meet at the office).  If you are friendly to them, you risk being
seen as a harasser or a lovesick pup; if you avoid them, you risk
giving a sour-grapes impression.

I generally do not ask for dates at the office unless I feel I already know
the answer -- that I have a fait accompli.  And even then, I often end up
with exactly the kind of problem I've described; no matter how much a 
lady seems to like you, she can always pull a boyfriend out when she 
needs one.  I don't think more than one or two women have ever made me 
feel personally rejected, but many have made me wish they had.  And this 
leads us into a rathole, which I may or may not continue and expand 
(perhaps in a separate topic).  For now, I'll just be general.

There are an awful lot of "headhunter" types around--women who go to 
considerable pains to get a man's attention, but who aren't really interested 
in him.  I've had women respond to a date offer by saying they're unavailable, 
but then give the impression that they aren't really satisfied 
with their situation, that they're looking around, that I should stay in
touch.  Thus, they encourage the man's continued interest indefinitely, but 
always seem to come up with some kind of glitch at the critical time.   
(That kind of thing can go a long way toward making a man shy; maybe 
this isn't as much of a rathole as I first thought.)

Am I the only one who has these problems?

Craig