Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    You're not alone and neither is the U.K. In the United States, 95% or
    custody awards go to the mother (actually a slight imorovement of 98% a
    few years ago), but its still VERY unfair.
    
    Eric

    Oh so familiar, my ex-wife has CC&C.                             
    
    I can't see the children without 
    		her being present AND
    		my wife being absent AND
    		it happens at my ex-in laws house. 
    conditions she imposes.
    
    I've spent over 1000 pounds in the past few years fighting this
    and other obstacles she has thrown up, and there have been many.
    She has "spent" every bit I had, I do not qualify for legal aid
    now and that's another story; and there are many of them to tell.
    
    I am not anti-woman, I married again and it's great. 
    
    I cannot express the hatred I feel for my ex-wife.
             
    Every now and again my blood boils, you'll find other entry's in
    this conference from me to back this up. Then I go home to my wife
    and talk to her. 
    We are waiting for November 18th 2000, which is Chris's 18th birthday
    and 2nd November 2002, which is Victoria'a 18th.  Maybe then I can
    present my side of the argument.
    
    Time to calm down, I'll add another 2 cents worth again later.
                                
    Dave

    Dave... you have my sympathy, and my empathy...
    
    Ex-wives (I suppose there is an arguement that some ex-husbands are
    guilty of this, as well) can cause terrible difficulty for the
    non-custodial parent.
    
    My ex-wife is (successfully, I'm afraid) turning my younger children
    against me, and I, like yourself, feel anger and hatred towards her for
    this. 
    
    But, I am learning now that hatred of her consumes *me* only, and seems
    only to fuel the anger between us.  So, I am working on how *I* feel,
    with the help of my present wife.  I'd suggest you try to find help,
    either books, group or clinical, on how to deal with your own feelings,
    and try to be more at ease with yourself.  
    
    It seems now, that I will be unable to change how things are with my
    children, so I need to address those feelings that are causing me hurt
    and anger, and perhaps, having learned how to deal with them, I'll be
    better able to enjoy my kids when they finally see what their mother is
    doing to them and come back to accepting me as a person and as a
    father.
    
    Perhaps you should follow a similar course.
    
    tony

    
>    Ex-wives (I suppose there is an arguement that some ex-husbands are
>    guilty of this, as well) can cause terrible difficulty for the
>    non-custodial parent.
>    
>    My ex-wife is (successfully, I'm afraid) turning my younger children
>    against me, and I, like yourself, feel anger and hatred towards her for
>    this. 
    
Now, I understand that Ex's can be really hateful and nasty to one 
another.  But I feel really sad when reading the above.  The kids are 
getting yanked around emotionally.

Is it possible to appeal to the Ex's love of the children?  In other 
words, is it possible to convince the Ex that it is okay to hate the 
other Ex, but that "for the kid's sake" one Ex shouldn't turn the kids 
against the other Ex?

It just seems a shame for the kids to get caught in the middle like 
that.


						--Ger

PS   >       "Attila the Hun was a LIBERAL!" 

     This made my day!  Ha!

    i have appealed.  and prayed.  and cried.  
    
    yes, it is terrible.  for the kids and for me.  
    
    but, my ex denies she is manipulating their feelings.  perhaps she
    doesn't even realise that she is doing it (that's stretching "giving
    her the benefit of the doubt" a LONG way), but in any event, she is
    unwilling to discuss it without emotion.
    
    i sometimes feel that my only recourse is to *wait* until the kids
    discover, in their own time, what their mother is doing.  
    
    right now, they live with her, and are not in a position to do anything
    but agree with her, out of self-preservation/defense.
    
    tony

    One suggestion that I have for non-custodial parents that are having
    difficulties with their children for whatever reason, do something that
    will show your children how you thought of them over the years.  Keep
    a scrapbook and write little letters to them telling them about what
    was going on in your life.  Or set up savings accounts for them and 
    tell them that you would have rather spent the money on them when they
    were young but as that was not possible you have done this for them.

    Expanding on -.6 and the idea of a scrapbook:  go one further and
    actually send them the little letters you write.  Sure, the
    antagonistic parent might intercept and destroy those letters, but if
    you've kept a copy in the scrapbook, the child will one day know that
    you were doing what you could to maintain the relationship.
    
    One thing I've learned from my and other people's experience (including
    the experiences of adoptees looking for their birth parents) is that we
    adults can control the minds and emotions of our offspring for only a
    relatively short time.  Eventually (and sooner than most parents want
    to admit) they start thinking for themselves.  A controlling custodial
    parent might get away with it for 10 or 15 years, but eventually most
    kids will see through the bitterness and start looking for the truth. 
    I'm not saying the lost time and the lost contact isn't tragic for both
    estranged parent and child.  But it's not forever and it's not
    irretrievable.
    
    Be good to yourself in the meantime knowing that the future will
    probably reveal the the lies of the custodial parent.
    
    Karen
    

    
    
    re. 5
    
    Your kids will eventually see what is going on and then the questions
    will start.  My Dad was an alcoholic and mom asked him to leave.
    As a kid I was mad at Dad for leaving.  When I was in high school
    I expressed those feelings to my mom.  We had many long converstations
    regarding this.  It wasn't until then did I find out that she
    had initiated the break up of the family.  Granted she had good
    cause to do so and I do not hold it against her.  In fact I admire
    her for making that choice of not allowing his disease to permeate
    their kids.
    
    I know this is a little different than the situation you have gone
    through.  But the similarities are that the kids will eventually
    start to ask questions and formulate their own opinions of each
    of their parents.  Hopefully they will one day understand that
    sometimes families just can not live together as families.  My Dad
    died while I was in school and that hurts cause I don't have him
    around now.  I often get really angry that he is not here cause
    I would love to know what he thinks of me and my accomplishments.
    I get so angry when I hear of bitter custody situations because
    it really isn't a positive thing for the children.
    
    I am currently involved with a man who is a single parent.  He and
    the childs mother were never married, but did live together for
    a year.  This child has been pingponged around for the past
    3 years.  Each parent has accused the other parent of talking down
    about them to the child.  Yet each parent has denied ever doing this.
    But what may not be directly said to the child may still be heard
    by the child and subsequently heard by the other parent.  This little
    girl went through a period when she was often saying negative things
    about the other parent in each situation.  I have never witnessed
    first hand her father ever saying to her negative things about her
    mother.  But I have witnessed first hand his little remarks that
    he'll make and she will be within earshot.  This is one way these
    kids pick up the info.  So you really do have to start listening
    to what you say and where it is said.  What may not be meant for
    little ears may very well be heard by little ears.
    
    Best of luck,
    Michele  
                                             
    
    

    I'm afraid that I can't offer much in the way of hope.  One place
    that you might try is the library.  I have found several books
    written by fathers and lawyers that have been throught your situation.
    Also check into Mens/fathers rights organizations.
    
    I myself went through this same situation about eight years ago (in
    the U.S., Colorado to be exact). I went in with the same advice from 
    my lawyer (that I didn't have much chance).  I fought not one, but
    two, of the bitterest battles of my life against a biased judicial
    system, biggoted judges, and incompetent lawyers.  I know what it
    is to pitch a no-hitter--and loose.  I ended up in bankrupsy before
    it was over, and it never stops.  A little over a month ago (after
    another two year fight) I finally got a contempt of court conviction
    against my ex for violation of visitation rights.  I can see why
    so many men just walk away rather than put themselves through the
    emotional turmoil.
    
    Why did I do it?  I had to think long and hard on that one myself.
    When it all boiled down, the final decision was made because, if
    nothing else, my children would someday anyway know that I had 
    cared enough to try, and none of my ex's brain-washing techniques
    can take that away from my chidren and me.  Now my oldest
    son and daughter have now chosen to live with me.
    
    I saw a quote the other day that I like: "Truth exists--it was 
    falsehood that was invented".
    
    good luck (sincerely),
    fred();

    This is in reaction to .3 and others, where one parent is trying to turn
    the kids against the other.
    
    I think it is important to keep trying to find ways to get her (in this
    example, the mom) to seperate her emotions toward you from her behavior
    with the children, and to get them out of the middle of the
    battlefield.
    
    How? I don't know you or your situation, but maybe indirect methods
    could work.  Get some friend or relative of hers who shares your point
    of view on this issue (whether or not they are friends of yours) to
    talk to her. Get people to share with her books or articles that deal
    with this area constructively. Send her such a book yourself. Get her
    to discuss this with you with the help of a neutral mediator - a
    custody-counselor.  Possibly (depending on age, etc.), discuss this
    with the kids, and have them tell her they don't like what she is
    doing.
    
    I hope you can find something that helps.
    
    		- Bruce
    

    I think Bruce says it well in .10    You must get the kids out of the
    battlefield.  I think that a parent must put the kids first in the
    context of allowing the kid(s) to live with the parent which it is
    in the best interests of the kid to live with.  The other parent should
    then take the position Bruce suggests.   Jeff

    I wrote .3 and have been reading the others, I appreciate what you
    are all suggesting but let me tell you some more.
    
    1. My ex- never takes the children to see anyone from my family.
    2. She does not read books, etc.
    3. She persuaded the headmaster of the school that the children
    attend I was not to be allowed anywhere the childrenas I was a bad
    person.
    4. I get one letter from my ex every year, that is when she wants
    to take the children abroad for a holiday, this year they are going
    to Florida. The usual next step is for her to apply to the courts
    to seek permission on the basis that I have failed to reply. Then
    I get costs.
    5. I never get any mail from the children.
    6. I did not see my parents for about a year though they had been
    seeing my ex. She told them I was ill and depressed. When I met
    my parents again they were arguing and my father was taken sedatives
    because they were concerned about me. In truth I had not felt so
    good for many years.
    7. Twice my son has been taken to hospital that I know about, both
    times I found out a few days later. On one occasion it was for
    appendicitis, my wife and I went to see him in hospital. When our
    approach was noticed my ex-in laws took my daughter away and my
    ex and a relative read books to my son. My wife,parents and I had
    no opportunity to see the children.
    
    I have a great home life. We hate my ex but love the children. There
    are pictures of them in the house and we send them cards and presents.
    We even send each other cards "from" the children, and send cards
    from them to my relatives. However, scrapbooks prove something was
    written but proof of posting is not proof of delivery.
    
    That's enough for now, there is much more. As I said I loathe my
    ex wife, totally detest her, and all that came about after we split.
    It's revenge, how dare I have the nerve to leave her! The reasons
    we split, now there is another story.
    
    Keep smiling folks, 
    Dave

    re .10 & .11
    
    Sometimes it can't be helped.  I would have given up the fight at
    any time if I had known that it would be in the children's best
    benefit.  But as they say "it takes two to tango".  What about the
    case where it IS the best interest for the children for the father
    to get custody, and the mother won't give up the leverage (or
    the support payments).  What about the case where the mother IS 
    doing eveything possible to brainwash the children and everone 
    else in their reach as to what a *&^% the father is (after all
    ALL women are sweet and kind and honest, right).  Sometimes 
    the peace IS worse for the children than the fight.
    
    My children WILL know who their father is and what he stands for.
    My children WILL know that thier father cared enough to take
    a stand and fight for what he thougt was right and for he thought
    was for their best interest.
    
    fred();

    Good for you Fred, I hope it works for you.
      
    Me, I care and I've fought, and now I've no money to fight in the 
    Courts. So all I do is write and hope. There are other's in the
    same position who care etc and can do nothing, I'm not on my own.
    My time will come.
                                                
    

    Actually, I believe *I* wrote .3... but, many of Dave's problems are
    the same as my own.  He may even have a worse time of it, in fact.
    
    Every time I call my kids, I feel estranged.  The language they use is
    often *her* words...(it can be so obvious).  
    
    Thank God that my two oldest sons, at least, don't allow her to
    manipulate them and they understand what is happening.  My oldest two
    daughters (25 and 18) are in her grasp.  The oldest came from Germany
    over Christmas, and was visiting her mom for 4 1/2 weeks.  Never called
    me, or spoke to me when I called there.  I didn't even know she was in
    the States until after she left, and then her mother "rubbed it in". 
    Of course, when I visited my daughter in Germany, just three months
    ago, we got along fine, and there were no problems at all!  I am amazed
    at how effective my ex-wife is in manipulating the kids.
    
    The worst part is the two youngest kids (12 and 14).  
    
    But, I'll be visiting Texas next month, and I'll see what I can do to
    repair it all.  Hopefully a few days away from mom will help.  But, one
    thing is sure...I will NEVER say a bad thing to them about their
    mother!  (tempted as I may be)
    
    tony

    Hole digging time, I wrote .2 not .3
    
    Dave