T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
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404.1 | | NSSG::FEINSMITH | I'm the NRA | Tue Jan 02 1990 13:18 | 12 |
| The issue could revolve on what each of your "perceived" standards"
are as far as dirt. My Mother's mother was satisfied at nothing less
than would put an operating room to shame. Granted, that is an extreme,
but it does show that the idea of "clean" is not a subjective term.
If things are legitimately dirty, then you need to convince your fian-
cee that you have higher standards of cleanliness than he may have, and
would appreciate if he could improve his. He may actually see nothing
wrong with the way the house is now, so you need to do some level
setting.
Eric
|
404.2 | I tried to define dirt | ASDS::RSMITH | | Tue Jan 02 1990 13:29 | 12 |
|
I have tried to define dirt. ie:
the white film on the bathroom sink
drinking glass rings on the coffee table
crumbs on the kitchen counter ...
In his house however the sink wasn't dirty until the white scum from
the toothpaste has turned to brown or grey scum; the coffee table was
invisible for the magazines piled on top of it; and only open space on
the kitchen counter was ever cleaned.
Rachael
|
404.3 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Tue Jan 02 1990 14:02 | 24 |
| In some ways I think you're waging a hopeless battle. It's not a case of
"teaching him how to see dirt", it's a case of convincing him to change his
definition of "dirt" to yours. And like with anything else, you can't change
someone, they can only change themselves.
Since you two seem to have different definitions of what dirt and clutter
are (I would not consider magazines on a table to be "dirt"), I would suggest
approaching it in a different fashion. One idea would be to sit down and
agree on a cleaning schedule and how each type of cleaning is to be performed.
This does not require "seeing" dirt, but simply an acknowledgement that
cleaning is needed at certain intervals.
Another possibility, of course, is YOU changing YOUR definition of "dirt"
to be more in line with his. I'd presume that this would not be acceptable
to you, though.
In reality, the problem isn't with him, it's with you. You're the one
who is upset by the "dirt", not him. If you can't get him to agree to
take on cleaning tasks in a manner that is acceptable to you, your
alternative is to simply do the cleaning yourself. It may end up being
a lot less frustrating. But be aware that the resentment you're building
may show up in other aspects of your relationship.
Steve
|
404.4 | Some thoughts.... | REGENT::FARRELL | The Permanent Alien Hacker. | Tue Jan 02 1990 15:58 | 33 |
|
Rachael,
As with most things resolving something like this means both
of you have to change your perception.
I was married for 9 years to someone who had standards of
cleanliness that approached an operating room. While I wasn't
filthy, as far as she was concerned I was not good enough in
this regard. Over the years I did improve, however I noticed
that she never loosened her standards in this regard. Bit of
a warning here.
If you expect someone to change in some way, I believe it is
important to acknowledge change has occurred, assuming it does.
Also, it is important that both parties reach some agreement
on a middle ground. Just because the other person says "Fine
I'll accept you point of view without modification", doesn't
mean they won't subsequently be disgruntled at having to change
later (doesn't mean they will either).
I think the best idea is the earlier one. Draw up a list of
what needs to be done and when. Make it a contract of sorts.
With rewards for work well done, or punishments for late
delivery. Thinking up the rewards and the punishments can
be the best part of the whole procedure !!! That way
everyone knows clearly what is expected of them, and exactly
when as opposed to "It has to be cleaned if it's grubby".
Bear in mind keeping the shine on your relationship is more important
than keeping it on your furniture - the latter is ALWAYS replaceable.
Bernard.
|
404.5 | must look at both sides | MKODEV::OSBORNE | Blade Walker | Tue Jan 02 1990 16:21 | 17 |
| re: .-1
>In reality, the problem isn't with him, it's with you.
Well, that's a little unfair, Steve. It's really a problem of one person's
needs not being met by the other, and it happens on both sides. To invalidate
the need is to injure the person, just as criticizm for not meeting the need
injures the other.
Whenever needs are not being met, the first thing is to state the need in a
non-judgemental way. After discussion, perhaps some compromise will work.
As an example, perhaps "successive approximation" can be tried. (That is,
try getting little concessions, doing cleaning together, and so on.) More
can be accomplished by reward (compliment when the need IS met) than by
criticizm.
Good luck on a compromise.
John
|
404.6 | | CVG::THOMPSON | My friends call me Alfred | Tue Jan 02 1990 16:22 | 14 |
| I agree with who ever it was that said it was your problem not his.
After almost 13 years it still appears to me that my wife is washing
perfectly clean floors. Or I am. Makes it hard to know if I'm doing
a good job since I don't see a before and after difference. Still my
wife does so when she asks me nicely to wash the floor I do. I doubt
she'll ever see me do it unasked though. I know she'd like it but it
never looks bad enough to wash before she either does it or asks me
to.
Your best hope is to get him to agree to take your word for it that
something is dirty. Expecting him to see it without your help is like
teaching the blind colors.
Alfred
|
404.7 | cooperation | LEZAH::BOBBITT | changes fill my time... | Tue Jan 02 1990 16:55 | 18 |
| I'd say a list dividing up the chores, and including how often they
should be done, would probably work. Hey, it's a cooperative
relationship, so you should share the work.
If your cleaning standards are VERY high, his efforts may fall short of
the mark. I'm not sure how you could handle it if this happened,
because you can ask him to clean, but you can't make him do it YOUR
way, he'll do it his way.
I've lived with people whose tolerance for dirt was higher than mine.
With a little discussion, my tolerance was raised, and theirs was
lowered, and we found a middle ground we were both comfortable with.
Generally I wound up doing a bit more of the work, but it was light
work and I didn't mind. It wasn't spic-and-span, but it wasn't ground
zero. It was pretty neat and pretty comfortable.
-Jody
|
404.8 | make "clean" objective | CADSYS::PSMITH | foop-shootin', flip city! | Tue Jan 02 1990 19:32 | 10 |
| What might help is making standards of "clean" objective, as others
have mentioned already.
E.g., if he does tasks A, B, and C sometime during the week, you agree
that the bathroom is clean. He doesn't have to be convinced to "see"
the dirt, just agree to go through the motions of cleaning. You both
agree on operational definitions of "clean" for each area of the house.
Anything beyond this basic standard is up to you ...
Pam
|
404.9 | another alternative | DEC25::BERRY | Send me to a McCartney concert. | Wed Jan 03 1990 06:21 | 3 |
| Hey, break the engagement.
-dwight
|
404.10 | Yeah! My house is clean! | ASDS::RSMITH | | Wed Jan 03 1990 07:25 | 10 |
|
Thanks people! I went home last night and my fiance was all prepared
to clean. HE asked ME if I wanted to clean and then offered to split
the house up! And all I had done was left a message on the answering
machine that "if he was REAL bored, there was some dusting and other
stuff to be done". (He was home sick) And,(ugh) I can see all of your
points that it's not a one-way street.
Thanks again!
Rachael
|
404.11 | I trained mine.... | CTD044::HERNDON | | Wed Jan 03 1990 09:55 | 29 |
| My husband was the same way...I even talked to his mother about
it and she said it was her fault for always being their picking up
after him. This is what I did:
. Made a list of the weekly house chores (xeroxed a bunch of copies)
. Told him every week these are the things that have to be done.
I don't care when, but they need to be done every week. If something
isn't done, it is carried over & highlighted to the next week.
. Since I've found most men *hate* bathroom cleaning, I gave him
a couple of chores he's responsible for every week in addition
to what we both do on the list. He vacuums & dusts and I do the
bathrooms & kitchen floor. Everything else is split.
Note: he likes how it feels to cross off something on the list.
Feels like he accomplished something.
In the beginning I made him responsible for picking up and cleaning
after me for 1 week....he realized "it ain't fun". He started *seeing*
the dirt, because if the house was dirty it was *his* responsibility
and he took it personally...kind of like a failure.
I also lowered my standards some and looked at it this way. It
may not be as good as I would have done it but it was done and I
didn't have to do it. I found it's hard work to *delegate*. Think
of it this way, if your boss asked you to do something and he said
I would have done it this way and then changes what you've done,
you'd say "why the heck did you ask me to do it in the first place?"
K
|
404.12 | | CONURE::AMARTIN | unga-bunga-bunga-ina-binga-binggggga! | Wed Jan 03 1990 12:00 | 15 |
| Maybe if youd treat him more like an ADULT, you might not need the
list.
"Trained"? Oooo, isnt that cute..... jes like a puppy dog or a
child.....
THank god I was brought up by nuns.... the MADE us all do ALL OF THE
CHORES.... For if I was to ever get a chore list explicitly telling me
what I should do (and lets not forget that big deal of crossing it off
now) I would be angry as hell.
Comminication comes from the mouth (and heart) not a list.
.02�
|
404.13 | Oh pleezzze mommy, can I??? | MILKWY::BUSHEE | Living on Blues Power | Wed Jan 03 1990 12:52 | 7 |
|
Really, A list indeed!! If I ever got such a list from
someone detailing what, how, and when *I AM* to do
something, They'd get the list right back, put just where
the sun never shines!!!!!!!!
Hey, they treat ya like a child, might as well act it!
|
404.14 | coward's way out | TLE::RANDALL | living on another planet | Wed Jan 03 1990 13:21 | 3 |
| Hire a cleaning person.
--bonnie
|
404.15 | | REGENT::FARRELL | The Permanent Alien Hacker. | Wed Jan 03 1990 14:33 | 18 |
|
Re: .12 & .13
Hey people, it's horses for courses. I would have welcomed a list,
that way I know EXACTLY what's expected of me and when. Drawing up
the list is something that's done together. If I had been given a
list without consultation about its contents, that would be a different
thing.
A list also avoids the "but we agreed you'd do...." kind of game.
Basically whatever works for you. I'm a list person for some things,
makes it easier for me to remember...what were we talking about - oh
yeah, cleaning !!
Bernard.
|
404.18 | New form of love, cut-downs.... | CONURE::AMARTIN | unga-bunga-bunga-ina-binga-binggggga! | Wed Jan 03 1990 21:31 | 2 |
| The funny thing is, I wonder what HE would say if he knew what you are
saying. Would he agree? I doubt it, very much.
|
404.19 | lists can be a neutral solution and avoid nagging | WMOIS::B_REINKE | if you are a dreamer, come in.. | Wed Jan 03 1990 22:53 | 9 |
| hey guys...
having a list of what should be done, a list that both parties can
negotiate over, and where each can check off that something is done.,,
produces a lot less nagging.. it is a neutral reminder of what is
needed eliminates a lot of the verbal recriminations..
Bonnie
|
404.20 | caveat on lists | TLE::RANDALL | living on another planet | Thu Jan 04 1990 09:28 | 23 |
| As long as the list is mutually negotiated, it can work, but if
the tidier partner (in our family, Neil) lays down a list of
chores for the sloppier partner (me), you're going to have a long,
drawn-out war.
And the person doing the chores has to have control over when and
how the chores are done. You can agree on a frequency (once a
week, once a month, whenever company comes over) but within that
framework, it shouldn't matter whether the floors get mopped on
Friday or on Monday.
We've got one major rule: whoever cooks doesn't have to clean up.
And the principle we used for dividing chores (our list exists
only in our heads) was that if one person loathes doing a chore
and the other one doesn't care, the spouse that doesn't care does
it. Doing laundry can ruin my whole week. I'll be down to my
last pair of jeans before I even look at the washer. It doesn't
bother Neil, so he does the laundry. On the other hand, the
refrigerator could crawl out the door on a squish of green slime
before he'd consider cleaning it, so I clean the refrigerator.
And so on.
--bonnie
|
404.21 | | CTD044::HERNDON | | Thu Jan 04 1990 10:23 | 16 |
| Just to clear up a little confusion and put things back into
perspective in regards to .11
My husband asked for the list...he said it's hard for him to remember
what needs to be done and what's been done....and other replies are
right, no one has to nag about it and waste time discussing chores....
and no, I don't hand him the list, we just leave it on the frig as a
TO DO list...
Some of the replies surprised me. I never thought making out a
list was *threatening* to a person's ego....and never thought feeling
a sense of accomplishment no matter how trivial was *childish*.
Lighten up, huh?
|
404.22 | one more thing... | CTD044::HERNDON | | Thu Jan 04 1990 10:28 | 4 |
| One more addition to .21....there are no names beside the chores.
They're just listed and crossed off when done...because we don't
*assign* names, we need the list to find out what we did or need
to do.
|
404.23 | | CONURE::AMARTIN | unga-bunga-bunga-ina-binga-binggggga! | Thu Jan 04 1990 10:31 | 13 |
| Personally, I feel that comments like "I trained mine" have alot of
different connotations. Such as a dog and a child.
I don't think that it was threatening, it was more along the lines of
condencending, if not a downright stab. Using the ole "men don't do
cleaning" and, "A man doesn't know what to do unless I tell him", or
even "I've trained my husband to do exactly what I want".
Try and think of your note dirrected at you instead, maybe you'll see
it differently.
|
404.24 | Ooops! Al beat me to it. | SSDEVO::GALLUP | the strangest twist upon your lips | Thu Jan 04 1990 10:52 | 8 |
|
RE: .21
I don't think it's the idea of the list so much as it is the idea that
"you trained him"
kath
|
404.25 | | CTD044::HERNDON | | Thu Jan 04 1990 11:37 | 15 |
| "I trained mine" was meant as a joke...my husband thought it was
rather funny....but some people took offense, and I apologize, that
was not my intention...guess I should of inserted a smily face. (In
actuality I was the one that was trained!)
I would also like to mention that I never directed the chore issue to
*men* (.23). I have a lot of female friends that look at chores as a
once a year event....also the comment *I trained mine* does not refer to
gender either...
Ever see the movie with Sandra Dee & Bobby Darin where she takes
a book "How to train your puppy" and applies it to her husband?
(Can't remember the name). When he found out he was humiliated
and Dee's mother told her, he's not the one you trained; you trained
yourself....
|
404.26 | ego | CLEVER::SULLIVAN | Eileen | Thu Jan 04 1990 12:46 | 4 |
| re .21
You are talking to some people who must correct everyone's spelling,
talk about ego.
|
404.27 | My O. | WHATIF::CROTEAU | Im wearing my Brook Sheilds, are you? | Thu Jan 04 1990 14:58 | 32 |
| Another suggestion to help out with housely duties...
(I think the list is a good idea)
First of all, Our biggest problem in our house is the DISHES!
if the dishes are clean usually the rest of the house is clean.
We used to leave those suckers there till things grew out of them.
Yeah...Its pretty gross...and we both had some really scary times
in front of that sink. So what we established was a neet little
system. You do them one day, I'll do them the next. If I wait an
extra day to do my dishes, fine, but I am gonna have an extra days
worth of dishes to do. HIM on the other hand, waits a week, but
still, I let him sit in front of that sink and do them all, if it
takes an hour. Same with me...I was at the sink for 45 minutes this
weekend. Silly, I know, but it has been working. If one of us is
sick, we do eachothers share of dishes. Or if I feel nice, I'll
do his dishes...Like, I vaulenteered to do the dishes all week this
week because he had a megaload last week.
that works...
as for every thing elts, well, one of you has to either lower your
expectations, or do more. My choice would be the lower...We have
2 kids...I can honestly say that my house is tolorably sanitary,
my upbringing tells me that the place is slime, but HEY...ya gutta
take light of these things, bigger and more important problems are
on their way that need attention...not who's turn it is to do the
laundry.
Mar_who_has_been_living_with_her_ole_man_for_2_years_and_has_learned
to_ignor_coffee_stains_on_the_coffee_table
|
404.28 | Doncha _Love_ Notes??? Oy! | TLE::FISHER | Work that dream and love your life | Thu Jan 04 1990 16:01 | 32 |
|
> Some of the replies surprised me. I never thought making out a
> list was *threatening* to a person's ego....and never thought feeling
> a sense of accomplishment no matter how trivial was *childish*.
>
> Lighten up, huh?
The replies don't surprise me, and I could relate to them. The only
thing that I wish is that they were clearer as to what they were
objecting to.
I may be wrong, but I saw the replies objecting to the tone of your
writing, not the simple fact of the existance of a list. I carry a
lot of baggage, as a male, about housework. I think that older
generations of men were hit with the "not men's work" gender
conditioning. Younger generations of men were hit with an additional
"You guys are terrible at house work" and "When it comes to housework,
you are so irresponsible" as part of our conditioning.
When I read a tone that pushes either of those buttons (reread your
original note and apply a sarcastic tone of voice to it, and you will
get an idea of how a lot of men might have read your note), I bristle.
(I learned a lot about why people responded "strangely" to my notes
until someone gave me the advice to read them with an angry tone; now,
I reread my notes with an angry tone to make sure that the wording
implies any gentleness or complexity that I might be feeling but not
expressing.)
Again, it isn't your method. It's your writing and your audience.
(In my opinion.)
--Ger
|
404.30 | Let's take this out of gender
| ATSE::KATZ | | Fri Jan 05 1990 09:59 | 47 |
| The whole thing get's ludicrous when I consider that there are men who are
definitely better housekeepers (while holding a full-time job) than woman.
I had such a roommate. It was really an education (and an irritation). He
used to follow people around the room with an ashtray, doing his best to
catch their ashes. He let you know where you were dirtying things, as sson
as you dirtied them. What a guy... He has gone thru about 8 years of psycho-
therapy and over the years his cleaning became less profound to others, but
no less effective. Basically, he got socialized. But his chrome still shines.
No, I don't consider myself healthier than him, only wish that his habits had
rubbed off a little more. It's nice to notice what he get's accomplished.
I would prefer to think of this as an individual issue. Yes, I can notice that
in my upbringing I was not expected to do cleaning, and my sister was. I do
note, however that my son and daughter get no exceptions based on gender (but
don't think society won't have it's influence).
I just got back from visiting friends for New Years. The guy asked me to come
upstairs to the bedroom to listen to his new White Noise generator for bedtime
sounds. While we sat there I couldn't help notice the heavy musky smell (B.O.
Plenty). I looked around at the piles of clothes everywhere. I quickly estimated
how many hours it would take to figure out whether the smell was coming from one
spot or was simply cumulative. As I got up from the bed I realized that it
was kind of a kicker that the blanket wasn't spread out at all. The only time
they do this is when they use it... God ! They sure don't waste time cleaning
when they don't have to...
I can't help but look at this as an issue of relationship, not sex differences.
What do you do when you aren't satisfied with this other person who is sharing
space with you, because they aren't like you in some particularly hard to ignore
way? It seems to become ludicrous that so much energy can be misspent around an
issue like cleaning, but then again it really doesn't matter what the issue is
if it feels important to someone and the relationship is to continue. I'll
wager that most people move on past cleaning in the early stages of a relationship
and then come back to it when it seems like one of the few things that might
make them happier if they could resolve it.
Some early romantic dialogue:
J:Oh, Romeo, I love thee like a rose loves the raindrops, but your rain clouds
seem to always pass thru a pig farm on their way over here. Goodbye!
A:If you don't clean your apartment before I come over, I won't bother coming !
B: Fine, let's meet at your place !
C:(Wow, isn't it nice taking a bath together !)
D:(Wonderful, now I can enjoy my sense of smell again !)
|
404.31 | Cleanliness vs slobliness | HSSWS1::GREG | The Texas Chainsaw | Fri Jan 05 1990 11:43 | 30 |
| Rachael,
I have a very small piece of advice for you... count your
blessings.
Your notes reminded me of what it was like being a child
with my grandmother hovering over me, reminding me what a
slob I was for not cleaning my room every day. I rebelled.
I really *did* become a slob.
I dust my furniture once every three or four months. By
then, the dust is so thick you can't see through the glass
table tops any more. I vacuum my carpet twice a year, mainly
to pick up all the dog hair. I never, I repeat, never clean
my bathrooms. The rings in my toilets are now harder than the
porcelain on which it is attached. The scum in the shower is
growing hair now. Do I care? Not in the least. I see the
filth, I'm just not bothered by it.
That, I think, is one of the basic problems. Apathy. It's
easier to dim the lights and not see the filth than it is to
actually do something about it. It's so bad now that I light
my entire apartment with one 40-watt bulb... and I'm thinking
about moving to a 15-watt bulb.
Like I said, count your blessings. At least you've found
someone who'll put up with your neatnick ways (and subtle
nagging). Some of us are less tolerant of such nonsense.
- Greg
|
404.32 | Grandma Smith | ASDS::RSMITH | | Fri Jan 05 1990 16:34 | 26 |
|
re .18
If you are referring to me, He DOES know that our cleaning needs
differ. He is the one who said that he doesn't see the dirt.
re .31
The reason that I am trying to work out cleaning now, is so that I
won't be a "nag". I don't "hover over" him. I don't inspect his work.
Since I know that he doesn't see the mess, I have to ask and/or hint.
I don't treat him like child. By the way, he gets to hint and ask
about the way I spend money, so this isn't a parent-child relationship.
set tone=calm
And I do count my blessings. I am very greatful that he is willing to
work this out and I always say "thank you".
_____
Thanks again, all for your advise. We may sit down and work, together,
on a cleaning chart.
Rachael
|
404.33 | Hire a maid service | CURIE::HAROUTIAN | | Mon Jan 08 1990 14:45 | 20 |
| Dear Rachel,
Let me share a couple of things my husband taught me about our
differing standards of "clean"-
#1, if we agreed that he had responsibility for cleaning something, HE
owned it. It got done when he thought it needed to be done. When we
agreed that he had that responsibility, we also agreed that I DIDN'T.
#2, if the issue is just cleaning up the house, please consider hiring
a maid service. You'd be amazed at what can be accomplished by a $20
or $30 outlay.
#3, compromise about housecleaning is a lot easier to reach when the
only agenda is a mutual objective to get the house clean, and there are
no hidden agendas about changing each other's standards.
"Take what you can use and leave the rest."
Regards,
Lynn
|
404.34 | Men, Housework? | SUBWAY::SCHULMAN | | Mon Jan 08 1990 16:21 | 29 |
| Rachael:
You new this was coming "Do you change the oil in your car?" etc..
.11 Did he agree that you make the rules?
My wife and I have this thing, that if we don't like the way the other
person has performed (cleaning the dishes, the toilet) we yell
"Quality control reject" and then do it ourself.
It seems that as time goes by the definitions, who does what, when
becomes clearer, but never is fully defined. But thats OK.
My opinion "My" is don't worry, and don't make a list becuase life has
too many uncertainties and that can be a source of arguments. If he
sees you cleaning does he sit there and watch?
I could tell you how my wife and worked things out, but that won't help
you. I could also tell you that when you have children things (chores,
time) get tougher.
The bottom line is don't try to change each other, it won't work.
Accept it and do it yourself, accept it and hire a maid, or loose
him and do it your self, or loose him and hire a maid.
Good luck
|
404.35 | The greener grass ... | ASAHI::SCARY | Joke 'em if they can't take a ... | Tue Jan 09 1990 02:34 | 28 |
|
I heard on one of the afternoon talk shows (Donahue, Oprah, etc)
that "nit-picking" over issues such as cleaning, taking out the
trash, and being a couch spud are signs of a deeper problem in the
relationship. I agree. I'm not saying it's terminal, just that
these complaints might be the tip of the iceberg with the real problem
being below the waterline.
Forget the lists - if talking it out won't work, a list will make
it more like a list of chores left by Mom .... I rarely did mine
without a lot of nagging.
And finally, a point brought to my attention by my wife. I play
guitar and have a habit of leaving all my guitar gadgets, cords,
whatever laying all around the living room. Not really making a
mess but definitely nit blending in with a country decor. So one
evening after I finished making some noise I started putting all
my "toys" in the closet, and my wife asked why. I told her that my
ex-wife used to have a hissy fit when everything wasn't "in it's
place". My wife smiled and said, ".. well, she doesn't have to
worry about that anymore does she ?". My guitar stuff is resting
proudly beside an antique desk right now. So keep in mind that
there might be someone out there that would love to have his coffee
cup stains on her coffee table.
Jerry
|
404.36 | | TRNSAM::HOLT | Robert Holt ISV Atelier West | Tue Jan 09 1990 21:06 | 14 |
|
Lawd, what women try to do to men to get 'em to conform...!
Men are always made to feel guilty because of *womens* cleaning
and nesting instincts (Dirt is part of nature. things grow in
it. It is evidence of a lively, non sterile environment).
Then, if they don't feel guilty enough, they bring on *lists*!!!
G*d's most formidible (from a man's point of view) creation is a
woman with a list in her hands!!
I am so glad, at times like this, to be, not a prisoner, but a free man...
|
404.37 | 8^) | ASAHI::SCARY | Joke 'em if they can't take a ... | Tue Jan 09 1990 23:34 | 8 |
| There is hope however - my wife isn't a "list maker" but then again,
we work together and don't need lists. My suggestion is, if you
become involved with a "list maker", quickly cross her off of yours.
Or maybe roll it up and pop her gently on the nose with it ... 8^)
Jerry
|
404.38 | Stay, Rover, stay! :-) | CADSYS::PSMITH | foop-shootin', flip city! | Wed Jan 10 1990 11:43 | 25 |
| re last few about lists and how obnoxious they and women are for being
domestic dictators...(!)
Umm, I think that if you look back through replies you will see that
although lists are NOT welcome to you and some other people, they ARE
welcome to some people. Some men have actually _requested_ lists.
Reasons to LIKE lists:
o you don't have to guess or read minds
o you know what's been done already and doesn't need re-doing
o you have agreed on an operational definition of what "clean" is
So it's not that lists are always obnoxious, just that they don't work
for you or you don't need them. Different things work for different
people. It's also been said several times that lists are best when the
two people involved sit down TOGETHER and decide how things should be
handled. Why always *assume* that the woman is shoving a long, unfair
list of ridiculous chores at the man without his consent??!
For what it's worth, I used a list when I roomed with two female
roommates. We all sat down and drew up the list together, so it's not
like any one person dictated to the others. One woman was very neat,
one woman was very messy, and one woman was in-between (and I'm not
telling which one I was!). It worked fine for us for 3 years.
Pam
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404.39 | Sometimes the shoe's on the other foot. | BANZAI::FISHER | Pat Pending | Wed Jan 10 1990 12:48 | 12 |
| Just to show that shoes can sometimes go onto either of two feet:
I had to teach a woman that it is not proper to bake and then leave
the kitchen a mess: dirty dishes, pans, piles of spilled flour on the
counter. She does a lot better now.
(I can agree with an earlier note wherein the non-cook cleans up for
the cook, if that's by prior agreement but I don't think it's fair for
one person to say, "I feel like baking" and then leave the place a mess
for the other person.)
ed
|
404.40 | | HANDY::MALLETT | Barking Spider Industries | Wed Jan 10 1990 14:32 | 29 |
| re: .36 (Bob)
� Dirt is part of nature. things grow in it. It is evidence of
� a lively, non sterile environment
The same can be said for a pile of dung, but that doesn't mean
I want to live in it. It seems to me that the core of this
discussion has more to do with negotiations between two people
trying to work out differences than with imprisonment or forcing
conformity.
FWIW, the most successful roommate situation I ever lived in
(with two other men) was predicated on sitting down before
we moved in and negotiating what "clean" was and how that
was to be achieved. That is, we drew up a list of what needed
to be dusted, vacuumed, mopped, etc, how frequently those things
should happen, and what our individual roles were in fulfilling
those obligations.
I'd also echo what Ed said about this not being necessarily
"woman clean/man dirty" situation. I went through a process
like the one described above in my marriage because I wasn't
happy with how messy the place was (and how I seemed to be the
one doing most of the cleaning up). One interesting discovery
was that we literally saw things (including dust/dirt) differently.
My vision (at the time) was better than 20/20; she's needed
glasses since childhood.
Steve
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404.41 | There are character flaws far worse than lack of housework... | CSC32::CONLON | Let the dreamers wake the nation... | Wed Jan 10 1990 19:51 | 38 |
| My ex-husband was undoubtedly the most obsessive person I've
ever met when it comes to having a clean house. He was a 19
year old rock-n-roller, substance abuser, and hot rodder when
we first moved in together, and he was 21 when we got married,
but he was as orderly and meticulous around the house every day
we spent together as my Mother (and we shared the cleaning
very fairly, for the most part.)
Our house was so clean that "dirt" was cleaned away long before
it ever became visible to the eye. We dusted every day, and
vacuumed every other day - and the bathrooms and kitchen were
spotless before we went to bed. As for clutter, we only brought
possessions out for use at the moment - everything else was always
put away. Our home was so neat that it looked like no one lived
there, which I knew was a bit obsessive, but I agreed to it.
It wouldn't have been a problem for me at all if it weren't for
the existence of another serious character flaw that my ex had.
Once he saw someone in a bad light (for whatever reason,) he
would become hypercritical of that person (so that *nothing* the
person said or did was right, no matter *how* innocuous the person's
words or actions were, and no matter *how* hard the person was trying
to be reasonable.) It was during those times that the house could
not be clean enough for him, no matter how spotless it was.
I don't care how clean or dirty a mate is - I consider it far worse
for the person to be in the mode of "Nothing you will ever do or say
will ever be right." That's the point at which you say, "Goodbye"
(because it's useless to try to get along with someone who has made
up his/her mind that it can't be done.)
Cleanliness (or the lack thereof) is a small potatoes issue, as
far as I'm concerned. If the two people care about each other and
want to make it work, the cleanliness problems can be handled.
There are many other things worse than not having the same standards
of cleanliness.
|
404.42 | Yeah, what she said ! 8^) | ASAHI::SCARY | Joke 'em if they can't take a ... | Thu Jan 11 1990 00:28 | 7 |
| re -1
Bravo !
Jerry
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404.43 | Be friends. | CHEFS::INFODESK | Adam L - Dangerously Socialist! | Thu Jan 11 1990 07:49 | 7 |
| If you love someone, you want them to be happy.
If she says "Its dirty", I clean - so she's happy.
If I say "Too loud", she turns it down - so I'm happy.
Whats the problem?
Adam.
|
404.44 | Does this help too? | UKCSSE::BEECHER | | Thu Jan 11 1990 08:58 | 28 |
| I've just caught up with this topic, and I think it's great because it's such
a common experience - we've all been in there somewhere.
replies .41 and .43 come very close to how I feel, and this is it:
1. You can argue forever about whether the bathroom (for example) "should"
be cleaned once a week, once a day or once a month. Everyone has their own
ideas from their upbringing, and they probably won't change. there is no
objective standard.
2. The facts that both *can* accept are their FEELINGS about the issue, and
the challenge is to acknowledge the other person's feelings and show it by
working WITH them to find a practical solution - that's what the
negotiated lists or other talked out agreements do. If you DO care for the
other person, you care about their feelings, and you want to respond to
bad feelings.
3. The serious stuff behind the cleaning argument is the hidden agenda or
manipulation like:
"This place is disgusting (and if you don;t agree with me you're a lazy
and evil person, and I won't love you)".
"You never do any cleaning (so I don;t believe you love me)".
And so on....
John
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404.45 | Bachelor squalor | HSSWS1::GREG | The Texas Chainsaw | Thu Jan 11 1990 09:51 | 7 |
|
Hiring a maid sounds like a good idea, but the last time
I tried she fled in mortal terror after taking one look at
my place. I guess I could call another service, but since
the filth doesn't really bother me, why should I bother with it?
- Greg
|
404.46 | An ideal solution, when financially feasible... | CSC32::CONLON | Let the dreamers wake the nation... | Thu Jan 11 1990 18:49 | 16 |
| RE: Cleaning services
Actually, that's what I've been using since a few years after
my divorce. The cleaning service comes in every two weeks to
do a deep clean, so the surface cleaning that my son and I do
in the meantime doesn't amount to much effort at all.
Having a spotless house without having to do the work myself (and
without having to get on anyone else's case to do it either) is
the best solution, as far as I'm concerned. The $70 or so that I
pay the cleaning service per month is worth every cent, especially
since we have cats that shed year round (24 hours per day, it seems
like.) :-) The workers do a consistently beautiful job.
Living in a clean house is nice. It's only the hassles involved
with it that I refuse to tolerate in my life.
|
404.47 | GET A CLEANER, Shower together .... | OLYMP::BENZ | Service(d) with a smile | Fri Jan 26 1990 09:15 | 6 |
| Everybody talks about lists etc. You are both working? Get a cleaner,
and spend the newly available time doing some really nice things
together, which dont need lists and dont cost money. Get the picture?
Have fun
Heinrich
|
404.48 | | HKFINN::WELLCOME | Steve Wellcome (Maynard) | Thu May 10 1990 09:43 | 17 |
| A cleaning person is a great present to yourself, if you can afford it.
My wife and I are not extravagant at all; neither of us cares
much about clothes, or luxuries, or fancy cars, or anything
else, but we treat ourselves by hiring a cleaning person to come
in and make order out of chaos once a week. Neither of us are
particularly neat, so having somebody come in guarantees that
the bathrooms get cleaned and the rugs get vacuumed and the kitchen
floor gets washed.
One thing we both try to do now is clean up after ourselves; when
I look at my mail, for example, I try to take care of it THEN
(pay the bills, throw out the junk, etc.) instead of leaving
pieces of it on the kitchen table for "later." It's always a
struggle though. Realize that somebody who is not neat is not
deliberately making a mess to annoy you; it's HARD for them to
deal with things in an orderly (neat) manner. At least it is
for me.
|