Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I know this sounds harsh, but as co-signer and (in this case)
    financially responsible parental unit, can you request the bank
    repossess his car rather than damaging your credit rating any farther?
    I doubt you can put a halt on his paycheck (perhaps if he was 17,
    but probably not if he is 18)....
    
    You can disown him or sue him in court, but repossession may be
    the simplest if you can get that to happen.  Just have him turn
    the car back over to wherever he bought it, if he's not going to
    make the payments.  
    
    -Jody
    

    re: .0 
    
    	   One pointed question... is the vehicle insured? (heh heh heh)
    
    	   The best thing to do is to get a good lawyer and ask them
    	these questions.
    
    	- Greg

    Re: .2 
    
    I would NOT recommend asking the bank to repo the car, as a voluntary
    reposession is not going to look much better than an involuntary. Also,
    do not encourage him to turn the car back in to the dealer. Your
    contract is for the re-payment of a debt, not the use of a car. Turning
    the car into the dealer isn't going to help.
    
    The bank doesn't want the car, they want their money. Taking the car
    rarely satisfies the debt...
    
    One thing .0 should check on: Back in my days ('77-'83) of working 
    as a repo-man (and then loan officer) the balance of the loan was 
    of prime importance. If the NET dollar amount was <$2000, the bank 
    could refuse to take the car and sue for the balance. If they took 
    the car thru an involuntary repo, they had to live with what they 
    sold it for and call it even. If the balance was .GTE. $2000 they
    could take the car, sell it, apply the sales price minus any expenses
    incurred to the loan and sue for the difference. (These laws and
    figures may have changed by now.)
    
    I suggest you convince your son to sell the car. Fast. Having it 
    repo'd is the last thing you want...
    
    Edd

    I HAVE HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE WITH A YOUNGER SISTER.
    
    
    SELL THE CAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    (and Save your credit)

    Cut your loses now!  My father-in-law had the same thing happen
    with his son.  Your best bet is to take the car away from your son
    and either use it for your own use or sell it to recover what you can.
    I don't see many other options that can save your credit rating.

    If you continue to let your son use the vehicle without responsibility
    for making the payments you do more harm then good.  Time for a little
    tough love here.  You are legally responsible for the debt but also
    entitled to the asset.  Continue to make payments to keep a clean
    credit record and take possession of the car while you decide whether
    to liquidate and take a lose, keep it for yourself, or return it to
    your son after working out a more responsible payment strategy with
    your son.

    -JFK-

    > selling the car...
    
    Best to check who's name the title is in. You may have no authority
    to sell the vehicle.
    
    ...and, to add insult to injury, even if you can sell the car you may
    not get enough for it to satisfy the loan and may have to come up with
    the difference out of your pocket in order to get the bank to release
    the title!
    
    Try calling (1) an attorney, or (2) the bank. The bank wants its' money
    back and will most likely give you alot of cooperation. Depending on
    how willing you are to live up to *your* obligation (Don't that hurt?
    It's the truth though...) you could come out of this on top.
    
    Edd

    .8> Since there's a loan, there is no question that the lienholder
    .8> is holding the title.
    
    Not my point at all...
    
    There's little doubt about who is holding the title; the bank is. But
    if .0 doesn't have his name on the title I submit he may have no more
    authority to sell the car than I do.
     
    Gauranteeing the loan does not necessarily equate to having any claim
    to the vehicle.
    
    Even in the case of a repossesion, the bank must file an Affidavit of
    Repossesion in order to sell the vehicle without the signature of the
    owner of record on the title.
       
    Edd

    I would check with an attorney.  If he is employed you Might and
    I say might be able to have his wages garnished and the check sent
    to you.  Have the papers come to your son with a copy to you.
    
    Just a thought
    
    Denny..
    

    re: Attachment of wages...
    
    The operative word is "might", as .11 stated.
    
    I was able to convince a court just *once* to allow an attachment.
    Judges don't seem too eager to do it.
    
    ...the downside to an attachment is your son's employer. Some employers
    simply don't want to deal with keeping track of their employees'
    personal problems and dismiss them. ("This is the second time this
    week you've been 4 minutes late! Adios...")
    
    Sorry for painting such a bleak picture, but I've seen so many people
    stick it to a co-signer and get away it....
    
    Edd

    TAKE MY ADVICE !!!!
    
    SELL THE CAR !!!!!

Tough love.  (I advise that you) get the car sold somehow, and settle 
the remaining debt in any way you can.

This is the same story as my brother and my mother.  When my brother 
was 18, he decided he had to have a Blazer, even though his part time 
job didn't pay very much.  Several accidents, nonpayments, and 
non-tax-payments later, he is still being "subsidized" by my mother.  
He is 26 years old and my mother cannot understand "what went wrong," 
why he is so irresponsible.  To this day, she is still paying his way 
out of trouble; when my mother went to register her car, she found 
that my brother still owed back taxes on the Blazer, which he hasn't 
had use of for 6 years; she payed the back taxes.

When I talk to my mother now, I try to explain that her support is
enabling him to be irresponsible.  I try to get her to see that even
the worst possibility (jail) might not be a "bad" thing to happen to
my brother, especially since he will have more than a few
opportunities along the way to avoid jail by renegotiating his debts
(bill collectors usually avoid throwing people in jail if there is
some hope of getting the money out of them; I'm _amazed_ at the number 
of bills he has avoided paying without serious reprecussions). 

I dunno.  I know that you don't want your child to come under harms 
way.  I respect that.  However, 8 years down the road, I hope you 
aren't wondering what has "gone wrong" with a son who can't hold a
job, who refuses to find an apartment of his own, whose credit rating
is shot, and who cannot seem to tell the truth.  That's the situation
with my brother.  If our family withdrew its financial support
(_never_ withdraw the emotional support) from my brother when he was
18-20, I don't think we would be talking about jail being a "good
thing" at this stage of the game; we're paying for our past mistakes. 


						--Gerry

Thanks for all the responses..right now I am leaning toward selling the
car.  The whole pattern my son is in reminds me too much of my oldest brother
(now 46) who got in similar fixes and I can still see the pain in my Dad's
face over the whole situation..but my father kept bailing him out and each
time my brother would say its the last time.  Nearly 30 years later and he
still cannot accept responsibility.  He's served 3 terms in jail and is about
to begin his fourth an he STILL finds someone else to blame it on.

I want to get out of this co-responsibility, so will try to sell the car.  I've
told him if he gets nailed for past tickets, suspended license, etc he may as
well forget my phone number because I will NOT bail him out.

I do not want to get the car repossesed, because that would end his way to
work, and attaching his wages is a next to last resort now.


Jim

Well, the story just got a little more interesting.  I haven't spoken to
my son yet to get the whole story, but his mother just informed me that he
blew the engine on the ^&*()^%$ car last night.


Boy did I pick the wrong week to quit smoking.


Jim

    re: .16 (Jim)
    
    	   Are you quite sure this is your son, and not some demon
    	from the underworld come to test your mettle?  Maybe it's
    	a space alien that took over your son's body and identity.
    	
    	   Then again, maybe this is the way sons are supposed to 
    	treat their parents.
    
    	- Greg

    Jim...
    I'm glad you seem to have a bit of a sense of humour...even through all
    this.  
    The experiences I've had with my own son were similar, and wound up
    costing me a bundle.  I now write that off to "learning" how to be a
    parent.
    I am amazed at how our kids find ways (sometimes it seems they do it
    intentionally) to undermine our best intentions.  
    
    May I recommend you still follow previous suggestions:  sell the car
    and minimize your losses the best way you can.  Your son will bewail
    how that will make it impossible for him to work, etc. so you'd best be
    ready to take a firm stand.  Your son is probably not the least bit
    concerned about how YOU feel or how his actions affect YOU.  So, if YOU
    don't protect yourself, no-one will!  
    
    It's far easier to rationalize our actions and relent to the pressures
    they skillfully apply.  No one is better at making you feel guilty
    about what you want to do than our kids are.  So, you have to be firmly
    committed and be "ruthless".  It's not easy.
    
    I learned that the hard way (several kids, several cars)... and I'm
    hoping the day will soon come that it will pay off.  
    
    Parents are responsible for many things, but providing automobiles for
    children is not one of them!
    
    Merry Christmas...(and don't start smoking again!...REALLY take care of
    yourself!)
    
    Tony

I think I will try to sell the car, even with the blown engine..my boss
who is familiar with the type engine in the car seems to think I might
be able to get a fair price out of it.

Earlier in this sting I mentioned my son reminded me of my oldest brother
who is serving his 4th stint in jail..He called me from the there last night
to wish me a merry Christmas and to drop a hint or two that upon his release
he wants to move here and live with me till he gets on his feet...


And then, my son just called to tell me he was fired from his job.


Still not smoking though.


Jim

RE -.1

Hang in there, Jim.  I wish good things for you and your kids.

Hugs.


		--Ger

    What do you care if he losses his job?  They build a lot of good
    bicycles these days.  Here is my recommended course of action.
    
    Take the car!!
    
    Keep it if it's better than your's, otherwise sell it.
    
    Don't answer your phone.
    
    Change your name.
    
    Send him a package of military recruiting literature.
    
               Former father of five (5)!!! teenagers.

RE:< Note 400.21 by MSCSSE::LENNARD >


   > What do you care if he losses his job?  They build a lot of good
   > bicycles these days.  Here is my recommended course of action.
    
   Since writing the base note, he has found another job, in a combination
   car repair/used car dealer. I cared if he lost his job, because at this
   point my finances are in a bit of a shambles and I could not handle making
   his car payment and mine.  Also since writing the base note, he gave 
   (voluntarily) me his final paycheck from his previous job, which takes 
   care of most of the payment.


   > Take the car!!
    
   > Keep it if it's better than your's, otherwise sell it.
    
   I don't want his car, particularly with a blown engine. His new employer
   has said that he can tow the car to his shop and when things are quiet
   they will help him  repair it.  I could not get anywher near the value
   of the car in its current condition.
   


    >Don't answer your phone.
    
    Good idea, although by now I've got a pretty good relationship with the
    bank.



        
    >Send him a package of military recruiting literature.
    
     Unfortunately the military can be choosy these days, and won't take
     high school dropouts.     



     >     Former father of five (5)!!! teenagers.


        How does one become a former father?



Jim

re: .0 and .22

You've come  a long way.  

Sounds like the 'better' solution is becoming apparent.

In a similar  situation with my son some few years back, i did consult a
Mass. attorney.  One  of the purposes of the loan transaction was to help
my son build his own  credit  history.    

To  make the "credit history" work, the loan and ownership HAD to be  in
his name.

My lawyer  told  me that this arrangement would be the worst one, in the
even  he  defaulted,  because  under  Mass  Law,  i  was  the  CO-SIGNER
(coresponsible) party to the  note  itself  (a contract between the bank
AND me and my son.

In this arrangement, IF my son had defaulted, the  bank would come to me
for  payment, and failing to succeed at that, they'd take  the  path  of
quickest success to collect.

If  my  son  had  chosen to turn the car back, the dealer could, at  his
option, either return  the  car  to  salable condition and charge ME the
difference  OR  sell the  car  at  a  loss,  and  still  charge  me  the
difference.  In any event, I would not have any legal recourse no matter
which way it went.  And oh yes, the car would NOT belong to me, since my
name  was not on the title, nor  listed  on  the  sales  contract  as  a
co-owner.

By the way, if I WERE listed as co-owner, i would then  would  have been
co-LIABLE for  any  DAMAGE  that  the  vehicle  caused, and my insurance
company could demand  my  son  be  listed on my policy, making me REALLY
co-liable for everything.   Be  sure to check with your insuance company
on this one.

A few times he was late with payments,  and only once did i need to help
him meet one payment (out of 60 payments).

Did these circumstances bother me little bit ??  Sure, and several times
I wondered if I had made the right decision.


I  hope  Jim that things work out for you.   It  sounds  like  they  are
turning around ..

Bob


In hindsight, the basic character  and  needs  of  the  kids  need to be
factored in, along with your own basic ability to pay (in the event they
don't).  One thing that did "hurt"  slightly  was  that after I had made
this agreement and went to the bank to buy my house, the Mortgaging Bank
considered the coOwnership of this loan a one of my LIABILITIES.

Fortunatley,  my sons credit record helped to nullify this issue,  along
with  the  net worth of the house I was purchasing, and  all  the  other
great "doo dah" that comes when you've worked at DEC for several years.

(Where  doo  dah  is  music to a bankers ears and implies longeveity  in
employment and the ability to pay in the long term.)

Bob