Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Lets head off the otherwise inevitable ratholes, you obviously are
    NOT referring to such honorable traditionally MALE dress as Scottish
    kilts, etc, right?
    
    A serious reply to the topic: Women are permitted *in this society*
    and *in this decade and a few previous* to wear what has been
    considered to be 'male' clothing.  I suspect it first came about
    for functional reasons; those first few women into any of the
    traditionally 'male' jobs couldn't wear skirts or dresses on telephone
    poles, in ditches, driving heavy equipment, etc.  Then someone noticed
    that these women's appearance might even attract attention, the
    commercial plunge for new fashions took it on, and now, 10-15-20
    years after the dust has settled, women wear whatever they please
    or whatever they find appropriate for their environment.  So thats
    how 'women' "get away with it".  It was functional, then commercial,
    then, finally, social.                    
    
    Men, on the other hand, have never had an excuse to start wearing
    'traditional women's attire'.  Recently, I heard of court cases
    involving male high school students who wore miniskirts in hot weather
    because shorts had been prohibited- an artificial 'functional' clothing
    style, artificial because they would have chosen shorts.  So without
    the functional excuse, our other societal hangups involving 'macho',
    homophobia, and a general 'fear of others who are different' have
    been the only guiding factors to set societal norms.  One might
    blithely expect that toleration exists in American society, but
    the three factors I just mentioned are certainly stronger...
    
    So to answer the question: this culture's social programming teaches
    fear before tolerance, and what we fear is perceived as a threat;
    thus, it isn't tolerated.  Personally, I wonder what else thats
    so harmless has been suppressed by this guilt-ridden church-going
    culture.  (* oops, did my biases creep in there? *)
    
    DougO

    
    
    
    I think one of the reasons why people get so upset with men wearing
    woman's clothes is because they think that that man is gay.  And
    from my experience, the majority of men are afraid and uncomfortable
    with gay men.  I think they see it as a threat to their manhood.
    Unfortunately, society also tends to think the same way.  
    
    But seriously, what is the big deal.  So what if they want to wear
    woman's clothes.  I am always wearing my boyfriends shirts.  In
    fact he loves to see me in his clothes.  I don't have a problem
    with men wearing woman's clothes.  I think it is quite amusing.
    I have several gay friends who are like everyone else except for
    thier sexual choices.  But even these guys are intimidated by men
    who wear woman's clothing.
    
    So really what is the big deal??
    
    Michele

    RE:-1
    <And from my experience, the majority of men are afraid and      >
    <uncomfortable with gay men.  I think they see it as a threat to >
    <their manhood.                                                  >

    I think that you are right in that the majority of men are
    uncomfortable with gay men (not afraid) in certain situations.
    If a man meets another man and they become friend, and their
    relationship is like that of any other two men, and one day the
    gay man tells his friend that he is gay, no big deal.  As long as
    it is understood, your gay, I'm not.  On the other hand, if you
    meet someone and one of the first things that they tell you is they
    are  gay, I the man may think that their are other motives.  I don't
    meet someone and tell them I'm a heterosexual.  Some men may not
    fell comfortable because to them it is not natural and the idea
    may repulse them.
    
    <I think they see it as a threat to their manhood>
    So what you are saying is that the majority of men think homosexuals
    threaten their manhood.  I think that most men are very secure in
    their manhood.  I think the thing that bothers most men is that
    the thought of homosexual activity bothers them.  Also the most
    recent development that makes men wary of homosexuals is that they
    are in the high risk group for AIDS.  I think that if straight men are
    uncomfortable around homosexuals, its because of their manhood,
    not because they feel it is threatened.
    
    
                                                     Mike
    

    re .3, Mike
    
�                                         I don't
�    meet someone and tell them I'm a heterosexual.  
    
    Actually, you probably _do_: you may mention your wife, your children,
    what you and your wife did last weekend, where you two are planning
    to go on vacation, and you may mention your in-laws.
    
    Heterosexuals advertise their sexual orientation more than they
    think they do.
    
    Lee

    re .0    A man doesn't have to concern himself with what a woman
           wears.  Never mind what is "acceptible" regarding her wear
           (in his eyes).
    
             While some comparisons are inevitable, a man does well
           to simply concern himself with his own wear.
    
             What is acceptable to him, and his fellow men.
    
             A man does well to wear suits and other fine MALE clothing.
    
             I don't understand why men  don't dress up more in daily
             affairs.
    
             It used to be quite a normal habit.
    
             Look at the pictures of the male fans at the '67 World
             Series.   
    
             Not a T - shirt in sight.
    
                                                   Russ P

    
    Usually I wear a normal habit, but today is Sunday so
    I wear a parti - colored one.

    It depnds upon your individual motives for crossdressing .
    
    If it's functional to wear 'mens' clothes , then there's nothing
    wrong with that . If a woman does it for sexual/self gratification
    then it's considered 'transvestite' . 
                          
    There are simply NOT that many occasions (if at all) that a man
    need wear predominantly 'womens' clothes .
       
    So the reason (we all assume) is sexually deviant .
    
    This brings up a question . Why do my 15 denier always go first?
    
    John J

    Most of the advice columnist and persons who write articles
    in psychology in magazines, which is my only source of info
    on this subject, state that there is nothing 'sick' about
    cross dressing. A man who gets pleasure from wearing women's
    clothes is just different, not abnormal, and is usually entirely
    hetereo.
    
    But, as I said, this is only what I've read the experts saying.
    
    Bonnie

    Re .9
    
>    cross dressing. A man who gets pleasure from wearing women's
>    clothes is just different, not abnormal, and is usually entirely
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    A man who gets 'pleasure' from wearing women's clothing is abnormal
    *because* he and it are 'different' .
    
    Hetero or not .
    
    John J

Probably men don't wear women's clothes (especially dresses) because they're 
damned uncomfortable and cumbersome. At least for me they are, so I refuse
to wear a dress. And high heels? hah! I'm lucky if I can walk in sneakers
on most days. And bras, well if I didn't have to worry about oscillating
mammaries I most certainly wouldn't be wearing one of those either. Mens 
clothes are much nicer and more comfortable. But if men really want to dress 
in women's clothes then it's fine with me if they can stand it.

Jenna

    I read somewhere that the rate of homosexuality among crossdressers
    is lower than the general public. So, if you're homophobic, beware
    of men not wearing skirts.
    
    Regarding the question about is it sick or normal; (by sick I think
    you mean pertaining to mental illness) it's real recent that this kind 
    of stigma is no longer associated with homosexuality and it appears
    that the attitude towards crossdressing is improving as well. Ancient
    philosophers believed that there is a wholeness in being able to
    express one's masculine and feminine sides. (Androgeny, Yin-Yang).
    I don't think this means that you necessarily have to crossdress
    to be able to attain this wholeness but maybe that's a part of the
    crossdressing equation.
    
    People are recognizing that all humans have rights as long as their 
    actions don't jeopardize the rights of others. The road to equality is 
    long and who knows what other groups will be found along the way ?

    re. womens clothing; women have been complaining about high heels
    for years and the health community says they cause all kinds of
    problems. Why do they still wear them ? 
    
     

The following reply is from a member of our community who wishes to
remain anonymous.
    			Steve - co-moderator
    
    
    

I thought some of the noters might be interested in a reply from someone
acquainted with the phenomenon of cross-dressing.

My husband cross-dresses with some frequency.  In his case, it is more from a
desire to be/appear female than to satisfy an erotic urge, although that is part
of it.  (We have discussed the possibility of a sex-change operation, but
although he thinks he might have been happier growing up female, he feels too
strongly identified with his male body now to change it.)  I knew about his
cross-dressing before we started dating, as did many of his female friends and a
few of the men.  At first I found it peculiar, and sometimes a little amusing,
but never frightening or repulsive; now I'm nearly as used to seeing him in
women's clothes as men's.  His usual female attire is the sort of clothing you
might see on any well-dressed woman in her 20s or 30s in a shopping mall--
women's cotton pants and blouse, or perhaps a skirt and blouse, sometimes a
dress.  He agrees with me completely that sundresses (worn without stockings)
are the coolest possible clothing in hot weather. 

I find his cross-dressing erotic when he approaches it erotically, but most of
the time he wears it as "normal" wear, not as specifically erotic clothing.  It
is also not a necessary requirement for him (or me) as part of sex play, and his
cross-dressing is involved in our lovemaking less than half the time.

He rarely cross-dresses in public, (unless it is in pants and blouse in a style
that could be worn by either sex), although he does look somewhat androgynous,
and is occasionally mistaken for a woman, particularly by someone approaching
him from behind.  Because his cross-dressing is not primarily erotic, he does
sometimes wish that he could cross-dress in public (including his place of
employment) but he feels it is not worth the hassles he would get.  In the
meantime, he hopes that the current trend of greater variety and color in men's
clothing continues. 

Whether he is a typical cross-dresser I don't know; I have read very little on
the subject.  I do know that the majority of men who cross-dress are
heterosexual, and certainly he is.  I also don't know whether our relationship
is typical for married men who cross-dress.  I suspect there are many men out
there who "dabble" in it, who enjoy the silky feel of women's lingerie, or the
scent that clings to their beloved's clothing after she takes it off.  All I
know is what my husband and our relationship are like.  And I wouldn't trade him
for the world! 

    
    re .12
    
    Its the evil male fashion mafia conspiracy who use mind control and
    sublimiminal advetising to convince women they *need* to wear high 
    heels...

    I really hope that nobody gets offended by this.  It is *MY* opinion,
    and my opinion only.
    
    When I first read the base note the first thing that came into my
    mind was "do what ever you want to do to make yourself happy" and
    decided that it wasn't abnormal in my eyes for a man to cross dress.
    
    THEN, I thought of coming home one day after work to see my SO in
    a dress, skirt, blouse, or negligee of mine!  I know I couldn't
    handle that.  I would probably think there was something very wrong
    with him.  I know I couldn't handle it.
    
    

    Two pieces of Lennonism:
    
    "Whatever gets you through the night,
    It's alright, it's alright."
    
    And, in thinking about whether any particular consensual sexual
    practice should be deemed "sick", or "wrong" or whatever, I'm
    reminded of Brian Epstein's confession to Lennon that he'd been beaten 
    up at a gay bar.  John (as best as I recall) replied, "Brian, it 
    doesn't matter who you love or how you love, but *that* you love."
    
    Works for me.
                                                 
    Steve
    

    Getting back to the topic of the base note, on why cross-dressing
    is exceptable for females but not for males:
    
    	In the era when women rarely wore traditional men's clothing
    (such as slacks or business suits), the prevailing attitude in this
    country was one of male "superiority" with regard to socio-economic
    status.  When women began to fight for their rights, it seemed
    natural to adopt the costume normally identified with the dominant
    group.  The reasoning was that if the majority of society still
    associated women's clothing with an "inferior" status and men's
    clothing with a "superior" status, then wearing men's clothing could
    add some credibility to a woman's claim for equality.  (Remember,
    image has a lot to do with shaping reality.)  By the same token,
    men had no impetus to adopt a style of clothing normally associated
    with an "inferior" status, so there was no great trend towards men
    wearing women's clothing.
    
    	Of course, while women wear slacks and suits and other
    traditionally male clothing today with great frequency, it should
    be noted that all of these clothes have been "feminized" with regard
    to cut, fit, color, fabric, etc.  Very few women actually wear clothes
    tailored specifically for men.  Thus, when women achieve a level
    of wealth and power in this society equal to that of men, we may
    see some reverse trends in men's clothing, but with distinctly
    "masculine" re-styling (maybe along the line of kilts, etc.)
    

    
    I seriously doubt normal men are going to adopt female
    clothes, except maybe for "special occaisions"...
    
    Dresses and such make no sence for men... who wants to see
    male legs? 
    
    Preposterous....

    (snmall voice heard from the back of the crowd)
    
    		.....I do......
    
    -Jody
    

    RE: .18
    
    Whether or not female clothing on males is "silly" or "preposterous"
    is in the eye of the beholder.  Many people think women in business
    suits are silly looking, but far more think they are quite attractive,
    hence their popularity today.
    
    I agree that men probably won't adopt evening gowns for personal wear
    anytime soon, but other articles, such as a summer weight skirt
    or caftan for those scorching summer days, may be very welcome to
    the sweating, over-dressed male population.
    
    

    
>    Dresses and such make no sence for men... who wants to see
>    male legs? 

I do!

Besides, I don't think they make much "sense" for women, either.  Who
wants to be hobbled by a dress and high heels?  I recommend that men 
do drag at least once--makeup, dress, heels, the whole bit--just to 
see what it's like for women.

I went to a Holloween party as a Brighton (Massachusetts) High School 
cheerleader.  Needless, I was _very_ unladylike.  I was continually 
hiking up my fishnets and sitting with my legs spread open.  Sigh.  
Old habits are hard to break.   ;-)

One of the coolest things I ever saw took place at the Metro in Boston 
(now "Citi") on gay night.  The Metro was the only place I ever saw a 
good number of crossdressers.  I'm not sure if they were gay, but I 
guess they found the gay crowd more accepting than a strate crowd.

Anyway, there was this very tall...woman...standing at the back of the
floor.  She looked really nervous and lonely.  A really masculine man
walked in the door and my heart stopped.  He stood off to one side and
chatted with his friends for a while.  Soon, I noticed him walk up to
the crossdresser at the back of the room and he asked her to dance.
They danced for a few dances, shook hands, and went their separate
ways.  She was _beaming_ for the rest of the night.  It was a really
special memory for me. 

Another special memory was seeing two...women...in a gay, leather and 
denim bar (lots of big guys dressed in biker's leather and stuff like 
that).  The two women were dressed kind of like grannies.  They didn't 
mind the leather guys and the leather guys didn't mind the grannies.  
I thought I was in a Mel Brooks movie.   ;-)


						--Gerry

    I would guess that approximately 25% of the "tops" I wear were bought
    in the "women's section", another 50% are "unisex" or "androgynous"
    things like flannel shirts or T-shirts. I prefer loose "tunic" style
    tops, and I also like "colorful" non-T-shirt tops. Neither one is
    particularly common in men's clothing departments. I find them
    comfortable, and I think I look good in them. I do wear them to work.
    
    Recently I've been buying more things from places like International
    Male and Banana Republic so perhaps clothes manufacturers are catching
    on.
    
    As for dresses, corsets, bras, high-heels, and so on; I've worn
    them for "special occasions" like costume parties or Haloween, but
    I agree with the opinion that most dresses etc. are confining and
    uncomfortable.
    
    By the way, clothes ARE a power statement. The statment I'm making is
    "I'm powerful enough to flaunt this custom." You need to know what
    you're claiming, and to be willing and able to back up the claim.
    
    	-- Charles

I find it interesting that, in the title, the word sick gets put into 
quotation marks and the word normal is left untouched.  I would have 
put the word normal in quotation marks, too, because it is often 
questionable what "normal" really means.

In my opinion, there is a lot of "normal" activity that I find very 
sick and that I would want no part of.  Cross dressing is a lot better 
than, say, getting drunk down at the watering hole, getting into 
fights, and then getting into the car while drunk.  I'd say that that 
kind of behavior is considered to be "normal" by a lot of men in this 
country, but, to me, it's not really desireable. 

Just me thinkin'....


							--Gerry

    
    RE: "SICK" vs Normal
    
    Normal is a bell curve for you stats/math people.  Some of just
    live closer to one edge or another....
    
    FYI normal is the point along the curve that runs between dead and
    living.
    
    John

    
    See Quark::human_relations note 655 for a different perspective.
    
    john