Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Please read .0 again, the rest rooms were NOT empty, they were
    in use (urinals, that is...the stalls were available).  The urinals
    are on the opposite wall from the stalls.  These "girls" were walking
    ,in close proximity, past 10-20 guys using the urinals...
    
    I'm not above ducking into an empty Ladies room for a quick wiz,
    if the men's room is busy, but I wouldn't stroll into a WOMANS room
    full of women and let it all hang out !!

    
    
    	Something like this happened to me on a booze cruise one night.
    	Seems I was making my way to the urinal when I ran into a girl
    	I was dancing with earlier.. I got to the urinal and was doing
    	my thing when she introduced me to her friend. I said "Hi! I'd
    	shake your hand but...."  It was a small restroom crammed with
    	people and everyone heard me and it really broke up the place.
    	It sure seemed to relieve the tension cuz that's when some of
    	the guys decided to go to the ladies room..
    
    	A neat place to meet people.. :-)
    
    							mike

       There are really two issues here: the inequality of public
       restroom facilities and gender-related privacy of body functions. 
       
       First, the inequality.  This is one area where women have a right
       to beef (so to speak).  Typically, in most public places
       (including offices), there are a lot fewer porcelain pieces
       devoted to women than to men -- even if the physical space
       allocated for the bathrooms is the same, you can squeeze three
       urinals and a couple of hoppers in a men's room where maybe only
       three stalls (total) are in the women's facilities.  Worse still,
       in many places (Logan airport is one), the men's room gets
       allocated much more space then the women's aggravating the
       problem.  I won't even consider the ATTP (average time to pee)
       factor, which would probably show that a men's room urinal could
       deal with more pissers in an hour [I hope the moderators
       understand the intent, here] than could a women's room stall. In
       short, it's undeniably true that women get the short end of the
       stick, public toiletwise, so ad hoc attempts to rectify the
       situation (as described in .0 and elsewhere) are understandable.
       
       The second issue is, so what if a woman walks by when you are 'en
       pissant'.  It's not as if you were modeling, or doing something
       abnormal -- for heaven's sakes, you've got your back to her, and
       they don't usually put mirrors on the walls.  In some European
       countries, it's not unusual for some public or semi-public toilets
       to be unisex, with perhaps a urinal and a couple of stalls.  (Even
       in nice restaurants!)  About the only time there's a problem is
       when you hear an ear-piercing screech from an American tourist,
       often followed a few minutes later by a gentleman emerging from
       the restroom wearing none-too-dry trousers. 
       
       --Mr Topaz

    Yes, but what if things had been the other way around?  What if
    men had tried to use the women's room while women were using it?
    Believe me, there would have been an OUTRAGE -not from me, but
    most of the women I know are just *SOOOOOOOOO* modest, so much so
    that I would almost call them prudish and a *tiny* bit paranoid
    (MOST women I have asked are this way, I asked in =womannotes a
    while ago).

    	-Ellen

    I dunno.  They have co-ed bathrooms at UMass Amherst, and some other
    colleges.  The only thing I was told one had to get used to was
    seeing the feet go both ways in the stalls.
    
    And as for the "average time to pee" or whatever, if some few certain
    women fussed and fretted less over making sure their clothing was
    "properly choreographed" before leaving the stall- stockings, girdles,
    battling with zippers, bodysuits, etc - and then standing in front of
    the mirror for 5-10 minutes flouffing their hair and straightening out
    their makeup - then the womens' room line would be less long.  Also -
    when the concert has a break between sets - men don't just use the
    urinals...if the line is long enough and the break is short enough -
    they use the urinals, stalls, and (yes, folks) the sinks, too.... 

    
    -Jody
    

    re .4:
    
    Please stay out of the ladies' rooms at Logan.
    
    - M

    re .4
    And some folks in the sandbox think that you've lost your sense
    of humor 8-).

    okay,i am guilty!!!
    i have gone in the mens room during a concert.
    when it gets to the point where i cant wait in line anylonger,the
    last thing on my mind is checking out the men standing at the urinals.
    now that i think about it it is sort of unfair you men have two
    options  :-)
    it would not bother me to have men come in the "ladies"room to go
    as they wouldnt see anything unless they were on the floor looking
    under the stall door or if they were in the next stall standing
    on the seat looking over.if they feel the need to do that,well i'd
    say they had problems.
    
    i dont make it a point to go in mens rooms,but if i have to go that
    bad i will.
    
    kelly
    

re:. .3
    
>    	A neat place to meet people.. :-)
 
I read an article in the Globe a while back that at some of the trendier 
Boston singles bars, most of the `action' took place in the womens' rest room.


re: .4, .0

>      In some European
>      countries, it's not unusual for some public or semi-public toilets
>      to be unisex, with perhaps a urinal and a couple of stalls.  

I know how .0 felt.  I was once on a business trip to Japan.  I was in the 
men's room doing my thing, when in walks the cleaning lady.  I froze; the rest 
of the men didn't bat an eyelash.

Clay

    
    Well, I grew up on a farm with an outdoor 3-holer and the only thing
    we were concerned about was how strong the west wind was during
    the winter...My parents had moved from farm to city to farm and
    they told me that cultural modesty seemed to track with the
    availability of indoor plumbing and smaller families........mwr
    

    
    Coed restrooms !!!    Oooooohh.... that's the ticket !!!  Maybe
    we should have coed locker rooms as well  !!!!  8^)  8^)   8^)
    
    *dwight*
    

    	My wife was most amused by her first experience of an Italian
    public toilet. It had separate entrances for men and women, .....
    but they met inside.

re: previous.

Just to relate a personal story.

A couple of years ago my mother and I and her friend were at a 
Broadway show (NYC).  The show had ended and the lines for the rest 
facilities (women) were quite long.

I reported that the men's room was empty.  She had me play lookout at the 
door while she and her friend went in.  Needless to say that after 
they got out several women from the line proceeded to use the men's 
room.

This was quite fun to watch as I recall a very young (10) being encouraged 
by her grandmother to go into the men's room with her.

We kept one or two men out while they were in there.

-Howard

        I had  a strange experience with this in Antwerp airport  a few
        years ago -  the  Mens restroom was clearly marked as such, and
        was arranged such that  the  two  urinals were close to the two
        cubicles with the sinks on  the  third  wall.   I was using the
        urinal when the cubicle door right  beside  me  opened,  and  a
        woman squeezed past to get to the  sinks.   Hard to go with the
        flow in that situation! :*)
        
        Andy.

    McSorely's Pub in Washington Sqr, NYC has shared restrooms.  It's
    been ages since I was there so I don't have an exact furniture
    inventory but I do remember someone telling me it could be very
    unpleasant on a Saturday night.
    

	Mississippi's in Boston has two restrooms, marked "People" and
	"Humans". I've seen more than one person agonize over the
	choice ("But which one's the Men's/Women's room?"). For the
	record, they're both basically closets with a toilet, a sink,
	and a lock on the door.
	
	I prefer to be a People, myself.

	Mike

    re .17
    
    >	I prefer to be a People, myself.
    
    Me too.  The word human has that nasty three-letter word in it...
    
    :) :) :) :)
    
    Lee

    re: .18
    
    >Me too.  The word human has that nasty three-letter word in it...
    
    Ouch ...

        Re: .18
        
    >>  >Me too.  The word human has that nasty three-letter word in it...
        
        And the  word  'human'  sounds soooooo close to that nasty five
        letter word.....
        
        :*) x lots!
        
        Andy.

    I'll state my opinion on this matter ...
    
    I don't think there's anything wrong with co-ed bathrooms, but I think
    the bathrooms would need to be designed to be co-ed, though.  I would
    be pretty embarrassed to experience what Mike experienced (i.e. having
    a lady start a conversation with me while I was urinating at a urinal).
    
    I recently slept in a dorm that had co-ed bathrooms.  Each shower was
    in it's own stall and each toilet was in it's own stall.  Clearly, this
    gives both sexes equal and sufficient privacy to do what they need to
    do.  At UCLA (many years back), they had co-ed bathrooms, but the
    showers were only available to a particular sex at particular times.
    Clearly, the shower stall scenario is much more convenient.
    
    I've only seen one thing that made me uncomfortable in terms of
    bathrooms.  Back in my adolescent years (some say I've never left
    them), I went to a CalJam concert (a huge concert in California that
    lasted for three days).  The bathrooms (out-houses) weren't very close,
    and the lines to them were very long.  Eventually, people got very
    impatient and urinated off to the sides of the crowd (both men and
    women, surprisingly).  That was a bit disgusting, to me (I didn't
    particularly like worrying about what I was stepping in). 
    
    But an even better point: Ever see a woman drop her pants, crouch down,
    and urinate in front of tens of thousands of on-lookers? I was shocked
    the first time I saw that, but by the end of the concert, I wasn't a
    bit surprised anymore - it was commonplace.
    
    	-- Jeff

    
    re: several
    
    And just what's wrong with the word 'hum?' :-)
    
    DFW

    RE: .21
    
    
    	I found I wasn't that embarrassed.. I guess everyone is different
    though.. (I felt "wierd" but not embarrassed..)
    
    							mike

    Hi, I'm the author of .0, checking back with you to make a few
    comments.
    
    I see that most of you don't feel this is a big deal...nothing to
    get riled-up about.  Well, I'm not all tangled up in my underwear
    about it, but I do think it's not acceptable social behavior !
    
    I feel it's insulting and demeaning for women to enter an active
    mens room, to use the stalls.  A man entering a womans room would
    probably be arrested, and/or driven out by outraged females !  
    
    I have two preteen daughters and I sure as HELL wouldn't want THEM
    strolling into a MENS room, breezing past 10-20 guys to use the
    stalls, and casually walking back outside, stopping to comb their
    hair and check their makeup !  It's not decent !  I think it demeans
    them and the males as well !
    
    If there were unisex restrooms (stalls only), them I'd say "No
    problem".  But the behavior I observed at OOB, is WRONG !
    
    I don't think it'll stop, I think the girls were getting a thrill
    out of entering "forbidden" territory and embarassing the males.
    Again, I say girls because the females were mostly in the 14-17 age 
    group, so please don't misunderstand my use of words in this instance.

    Well, that's where I stand on the situation...thanks for expressing
    your opinions.

    
    
    	You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I don't think
    	it's going to change he way your siblings live thier life later.

    	I'm 26, most of the people that were on the ship were older
    	than 23. Personally, I found it almost relaxing that people
    	could put down thier "inhibitions" in order to do something
    	natural and still have a laugh over it all.
    
    							mike

    RE: .26
    
�	There is nothing unusual that goes on in the main part of 
�    	a women's room (except perhaps a few adjustments in clothes.)  

    	And all you'd probably see in a Mens Room are a few adjustments
    	in how gravity affects certain things..
    
    							mike

been to any concerts lately?  i think the line line 
of women for the MEN's bathroom is longer than the 
line of women for the WOMEN's bathroom!  

but seriously, it's pretty much commonplace as far as 
the concerts i've gone to.  and yes, i think the people 
there are able to joke about it and make light of the
matter...so what's the big deal?

i think the big deal is the urinals...if there were no
such thing, or they were situated different i don't think
there would be a big deal.  families share the same
bathroom don't they???

tlr

    re: .0
    
    I've been using "coed" lavatories (WC) for years. Everytiem I go
    hiking there are NO signs indicating which tree is for men, or which
    for women. This is especially true in winter, when  it is often
    UNWISE to use a 'Spruce' tree, or other 'evergreen'.
        
    When I was in Japan (1962) I was non-plussed to walk into the
    'mens' room, and later learn it was  the ONLY room.
    
    I think eventually we'll find 'rest rooms' becoming less and less
    restrictive as the old victorian concepts of 'genitals' and 'sin'
    being the same , become passe' (witness your experience, for  example).
    
    There was a film with Jane Fonda , where she was discussing a heated
    topic with her husband, and they moved the discusion into the lavatory
    while she pee'd. I was puzzled to hear some very 'liberal' people
    criticize that sequence as being tasteless and unnecessary and felt
    it somehow 'compromised' certain basic moral values.
    
    Someday, the world of the USA will move its sense of 'true' morality
    and sensitivity to the more pragmatic things in life, rather than
    body functions. Perhaps, if you know a mixed group like 'skin divers',
    'climbers','winter hikers', and other groups of close-knit people,
    who must live-and-play in very close quarters; you'll have a glimpse
    of that openess de-victorianized concept I've been alluding too.

    Bob+3
    
    

    
    When I was in college I attended a concert that was being held on
    the old girls campus. There were still mostly woman's dorms. For
    the life of me a couldn't find a men's toliet and looking around
    I say alot of other males with the same fate. I decided that this
    being a modern world it would be understandable to use the woman's
    room in one of the dorms. Big Mistake. I went in and recieved looks
    like I was the campus rapist. Somebody must of told because I was
    retracted by a security guard and almost beaned with a night stick!
    And I still had to go....
    
    Ended up exposing myself behind someone's van.
    

    
    What I'd like to know is just how many men were using the womans
    room and what would have happened if several had walked in to 
    relieve themselves. I guess what I'm asking is, is there a 
    double standard. Is it OK for women to do it but not men!!!
    

    RE: REPLY TO THE FEMALE WALKING IN WHILE TAKING CARE OF
    BUSINESS...........
    
    I HAVE A PRETTY STRONG LIBIDO, SO I'M AFRAID IT WOULD BE.........
    
    WHAT'S THAT LIONELL RITCHIE SONG....."OH WHAT A FEELING...P***ING
    ON THE CEILING!
    
                                               BLUSH,
    
                                               MW

    Personally I would not prefer to have women walk in on me while
    using a urinal in a mens' room.  As others have mentioned, it 
    sure would't work the other way.... that is if one of us men walked
    in to a womens room while a women was using it....
    Someone else mentioned that she didn't like women having only one
    option while men have two and she didn't think that that was fair.
    Sorry about that.... guess she had better talk to mother nature about
    the design differences.
    My vote is to to keep the rooms designated and used specifically by
    one sex unless there are isolated stalls. 
    
    Jeff

>    Personally I would not prefer to have women walk in on me while
>    using a urinal in a mens' room.  As others have mentioned, it 
>    sure would't work the other way.... that is if one of us men walked
>    in to a womens room while a women was using it....

Okay, here's what I don't understand.  I am assuming that the above 
paragraph means that it would be embarrassing to have a woman walk in 
on a man (and vice versa) because of the sexuality involved between 
men and women (gettin' naked in front of one another).

Now, I'm gay, yet I have been at urinals and stalls when a "person of 
the gender that I am sexually attracted to" walks into the restroom, 
yet this has never been a big problem for me.  I also play sports, so 
I routinely shower with "people of the gender to whom I am attracted." 
Also no big deal.

I have a woman doctor, and I don't really have a problem being naked 
in front of a person of the opposite gender.

I understand that we are socially trained to avoid being naked in
front of members of the opposite sex, but, other than our own
training, what's the big deal? 

Actually, I don't care if we have segregated bathrooms or not.  But I 
don't get the "it just wouldn't work" argument.  Isn't it possible 
that we could "get over it"?  Aren't bathrooms and lockerrooms 
nonsexual places in reality?  (I know they can be hot in fantasy, 
but....)

Can someone shed some light for me?

							--Ger

    Re .35  You bring up some good points.  I am not sure I can answer with
    a rational answer WHY it makes a difference.  I suppose it has to do
    with how we are trained as children.  Boys and girls are trained to same
    gender segregation when it comes to bathroom or showering functions.
    I suppose it originated because of the potentially sexual situations 
    which could occur. But as you say if one was gay same sex sexual
    situations could occur frequently as it is now set up.
    
    If another man was gay and I knew it when he walked in when I
    was using a urinal it MIGHT make me uneasy because of the POTENTIAL
    sexual situation.
    
    It not just a potential sexual situation either.  Its a matter of a
    type of privacy which I need regarding bathroom functions.  Somehow
    its ok in that context to have that privacy shared? by another man.
    I am not conditioned to share THAT type of situation with a woman.
    
    Jeff
    
    

    In re: .36
    
    > Boys and girls are trained to same gender segregation when it comes
    > to bathroom or showering functions.
    
    Gee, Jeff, here we go again.
    
    Wouldn't you rather say "In my experience in childhood ...", or "In my
    current household ... " or something else different?  You do have a
    tendency to assume that the rest of the world shares your values and
    experiences. I am not at all concerned with your specific views on coed
    bathrooms.
    
    			- Bruce

    Yeah, here we go again Bruce. I am doing what each of us does... that
    is, speak based on our own experiences in life, what else can we do?
    I thought that was what notes was for, that is, to communicate with 
    other people and see what they think.  Other people seem  to be
    interested discussing this particular note.  If you are not interested
    in my views why do you read and reply to my note?  I don't need you to
    agree with me Bruce but I wish you would be a bit more (is polite 
    the word?) with your pointed remarks to me.  I apologize if I came
    down on you hard in one of my other notes.  What do you say we ease
    up on one another?  If nothing else, perhaps we should take the postion
    if we can't say something nice don't say anything at all to one
    another?
    
    Smiles?   Jeff
    
             
     

    	When my son was in pre-school (the year before kindergarten,) he
    	was in a class called "young 4's" (for kids 3 3/4 to 4 1/4 years
    	old, or some such.)  They all used the same bathroom.
    
    	If you've ever watched a 3 or 4 year old go to the bathroom, they
    	are often too concerned with the mechanics of it to have much
    	of a sense of modesty about it.  Boys' and girls' would drop
    	their pants in the same room, and none of them seemed to care.
    
    	A few months later, though, my son was transferred to the "pre-
    	kindergarten" class, and found the bathrooms segregated by sex.
    
    	Whereas he hadn't even noticed the girls in the bathroom before,
    	now the teachers had a heck of a time keeping him from trying to
    	peek into the segregated girls' bathroom.  Suddenly, it was all
    	so different and forbidden to him, and he *needed* to be in a
    	segregated boys' bathroom (so he wouldn't peek and stare.)
    
    	The change occured literally overnight for him.
    
    	The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think coed bathrooms
    	would be a big deal at all if we'd grown up used to them, but I
    	think it would be a difficult adjustment to make for many of us
    	as older children or adults (if we've grown up without them.)

    Suzanne,
    
    I do think  that for adults toilet functions are far more embarssing
    than simple nudity or exposure of the genitals..when we use the toilet
    we make embarassing noises and especially smells..
    
    and for what ever reason this seems to be harder with the opposite
    sex present..
    
    and tho I'm quite willing to believe that this is cultural, I think
    it hits an embarassment level with most people that is nearly
    impossible to over come. I'm confident that most people would
    rather 'die' that pass gas or have to move their bowels in front
    of someone else, even, or perhaps, especially, someone they had
    or were willing to, make (made) love to.
    
    I'll bet it takes far more trust to let someone else see you
    using the toilet than it does to let someone have sex with you.
    
    Bonnie

>>>>I thought that was what notes was for, that is, to communicate with  other
people and see what they think.  Other people seem  to be interested discussing
this particular note.  

Jeff:

Don't sweat it.  People often make sweeping statements when noting.  I think we
often are thinking out loud, so to speak, (but in our heads), and type without
realizing how we're coming across.  I can read a sweeping statement but I'm
smart enough to know that no one speaks for me, period.  I know what you meant.
When a person enters a note, I think it's pretty safe to assume that person is
passing his/her opinion, without getting into this foolish... "IMHO" crap.

Now, back to the topic...

-dwight

>>>When my son was in pre-school (the year before kindergarten,) he was in a
class called "young 4's" (for kids 3 3/4 to 4 1/4 years old, or some such.) 
They all used the same bathroom.  If you've ever watched a 3 or 4 year old go
to the bathroom, they are often too concerned with the mechanics of it to have
much of a sense of modesty about it.  Boys' and girls' would drop their pants
in the same room, and none of them seemed to care.


Eventually, he would probably be a big deal anyway.  Puppies are innocent little
critters too.  But eventually they "grow up" and where they ignored the
opposite sex before, now they have their nose "everywhere" it doesn't belong.

Some children *might* grow up sharing a coed restroom, but it would breed more
problems than it's worth.  In coed dorms, sex is a problem.  Rape is also a
problem.  Unwanted babies is a problem.  Rape would be a problem with coed
restrooms as well.

It would be nice to believe that we all have our "acts" together and can share
restrooms together, and to take it a step further, shower together at the gym,
and never have a naughty thought and never act upon it.... but it will NEVER
happen.  We're human.  We're animals.

-dwight

    re:.39  (coed perschool bathrooms)  Reminds me of the time I was in
    kindergarten and we had a shared bathroom and I wouldn't come out
    because my fly was stuck and a little girl (what was her name?) came in
    and helped me with it.
    
    blush.  No way would that have happened in later years.
    
    ed

> In coed dorms, sex is a problem.  Rape is also a problem.

I strongly disagree. In coed dorms sex is not a "problem". Unless, of course,
you believe that sex in general is a problem? Perhaps you believe that sex
between unmarried adults is a problem and that people should be virgins when
they marry. If so, I respectfully disagree, but we don't have any common basis
for discussion.

Rape *is* a problem, but not one specific to coed dorms. Rape on college
campuses is a special problem if you ask me, but one unrelated to coedness of
dorms.

I lived on campus in a college that had coed dorms. The bathrooms were de-facto
coed for the most part as well. It was NO BIG DEAL.

> Some children *might* grow up sharing a coed restroom, but 
> it would breed more problems than it's worth.

Hello? How the heck do you know? Are you *sure*? My belief is exactly 180�
opposite yours, but I acknowledge that mine is a belief. I do have SOME evidence
for my position, how about you? Shall we get out the bibliographies, books, and
articles? Or should we continue by using "soapbox" rules, making wild
unsubstantiated claims, setting ourselves up as experts, and calling each
other names?

Either way, I'm game.

	-- Charles

Re: < Note 146.42 by BLITZN::BERRY "Send me to a McCartney concert." >

> In coed dorms, sex is a problem.  Rape is also a problem. 

Uh, excuse me.  What substantiation do you have for such a wild claim?

My experience in living in a very liberal coed dorm was that sex was not 
a problem.  I would venture, rather, that a coed living situation is 
healthier - teaching one more, rather than less, respect for the other 
gender.

I know of no case of rape that happened in my dorm while I lived there.  
I have not heard n-th hand of any rape in a coed dorm - not to say it 
hasn't happened.  But I have heard of rape at single sex living 
situations - particularly fraternities.

>Unwanted babies is a problem.  

Sure, no one disagrees.  But what does that have to with the discussion 
at hand - coed toilets?

>Rape would be a problem with coed restrooms as well. 

That doesn't follow for me - and doesn't jive with my experience.  Care 
to explain your reasoning further?

Going back to the original topic...

My own preference - not a strong one, mind you - is for genderless 
toilet facilities.  Provide urinals - they save water compared to 
toilets - but put them in closed stalls.

One objection I do have to segregated facilities is that women's room's
often seem to be "better furnished" than men's rooms.  What nonsexist 
reason could there be for chairs and even couches in women's restrooms
but not men's? 

Bob

    Re. .40  "for some reason this seems to be more difficult with the
    opposite sex present".  Maybe its more difficult for really basic
    reasons... that is, even though we may be married, men like to be
    attractive to women, and vise versa.... that is a difficult image to
    maintain if people of the opposite sex are sharing a bathroom with us
    with all the attending smells and noises.
    
    Re .39 that is interesting that little kids hardly seem to notice
    the opposite sex sharing a bathroom with them UNTIL they are
    segregated.  It makes sense... make somthing forbidden and interest
    suddenly zooms.  I have a two year old son in private day care so
    havn't had to deal with a "public daycare" situation where he has
    had to deal with coed or non coed bathrooms.  It is of course
    inevitable that he will run into non coed bathrooms.  I am glad to
    have had other peoples' thoughts on this because I will have to help
    him deal with bathrooms etc. as he gets older.  What happens when my
    son needs to use a public bathroom with my wife taking care of him?
    Does she bring him into the womens room....? Of course she would with
    a small child... I suppose the cut off age would be old enough so that
    he could use a mens room on his own?  How do we deal with the safety/
    modesty issue, or am I making a big deal of "nothing"?
    
    Jeff

    In re .47
    
    Regarding children in public bathrooms: Yes, you're making a mountain
    out of a non-issue.
    
    Regarding your earlier remarks: you speak as though the common practice
    in American households was to segregate bathrooms by sex. But this is
    nonsense.  Occasionally they are segregated by "generation," but most
    often there aren't enough to segregate at all.  Surely this is a good
    thing, and helps to counteract the negative preoccupation with bodily
    functions that is instilled too much in other ways.

    Re. .48, oh, of course there is no sex segregation in household
    bathrooms. Its when one is out in public with a young child of the
    opposite sex that the potential public rest room issue comes up.
    Unless our next child is a daughter I will never have to deal with
    this issue anyway.  I will have to deal with answering questions from
    my son on these issues possibily.  I am glad to have more of an
    overview than I had prior to reading this conf.   Jeff

    Rathole exception to the rule?  My grandparents had the "boy's bathroom"
    in the front and the "girl's" in the back.  As far as I know that was
    adhered to with some exceptions even up to recent years.
    
    Of course, they had 9 boys and 6 girls so there may have been a practical
    reason for this.  [and 70 or so grandchildren]
    
    ed

>One objection I do have to segregated facilities is that women's room's
>often seem to be "better furnished" than men's rooms.  What nonsexist 
>reason could there be for chairs and even couches in women's restrooms
>but not men's? 

PMS.

    re. .51  Well, the better furnished (in SOME cases), womens' rest rooms
    should help offset the complaint from another writer that women have
    less options when it comes to choices, i.e. men can choose between
    urinal or stall.   

    re: .52
    Not really, when you figure that for women, the number of times a month
    you have PMS so bad you need to lie down on a couch in a public
    restroom (bleah, horrible place to spend time when you're feeling
    lousy) is much, much, much fewer than the number of times a month you
    need to wait for a stall because there are none available.
    
    I WANT MORE STALLS!
    I WANT MORE STALLS!
    I WANT MORE STALLS!
    
    :-)
    Pam

    Many women complain about males leaving the toilet seat up after they
    finish using the restroom.  My complaint is with other males who leave
    the toilet seat down *while* they do it standing up.  My pet peave,
    which really ticks me off, is when I am about to use a public restroom,
    only to see those nasty drops all over the toilet seat.  What's with
    these people, anyway?  Is this due to small children who just don't
    realize the courtesy involved in raising the seat first, or are there
    adult men who actually do this sort of thing?

    -- Mike

>or are there
>    adult men who actually do this sort of thing?

 Sad to say, Mike, but there are more than a few adult men who are also
inconsiderate.

 The Doctah

    .55:     "or are there adult men who actually do this sort of thing?"
    
     For the most part those are boys disguised as adult men.
    
    ed

    I think there are men who leave as much of a mess as they possibly
    can.....messy seat, unflushed toilet, paper all over, writing on walls,
    its seems that some are trying to have a gross out contest.  Its 
    bad enough if your trying to find a RR in an emergency, to have to fight
    your way into the mens' room past the crowds of women (laugh here)
    just to find the seat covered.   Seriously, it GROSSES me out too.
    I understand about the lack of stalls in womens' rooms.   The wait
    much be much longer because the process takes longer.  All in all
    I guess the advantages and disadvantages of each gender rest room
    evens out?           Jeff

>    only to see those nasty drops all over the toilet seat.  What's with
 

	Sad to say this problem isn't only in the men's toilet.
	I've gone into the lady's room stall more than once
	and found the same thing !



	kits

>	Hmm... should the seat cover be left up, or down?

Ha!  Now we're getting to the "hot" issues!!!   ;-)

	--GerSurvivorOf"WhoLeftTheSeatUp?"Tirades

>	Hmm... should the seat cover be left up, or down?

 Make the toilets without covers.

 The Doctah

    re .61  Don't laugh Ive seen them... no cover.  They tend to be cold
    wet and dirty.... always.   Hmmmmmmmm   I suppose Emily Post would
    recommend the ring be left down but since we have those who seem to
    delight in wetting things I think a safer position would be UP in 
    public restrooms,   down at home.    Jeff

    Read VNS for the latest and greatest in toilet design.
    
    Infra-red remote control (universal no doubt) and automatic 
    timers no less.  And the facilitities themselves, mind blowing.
    
    Bob
    

Well, it doesn't matter anymore...heard on the radio this morning that
someone in Rock Hill, SC has invented the "Toilet Lifter". Guess it's
a foot peddle thing, so when you walk up to the toilet you step on the
peddle and up comes the seat. :-)

Jenna


I'm not making this up...

I can't help but want to make fun of this note. But after several attempts at
humor, I finally decided that none of my jokes were worthy. I always excelled
at bathroom humor, but sometimes I think its because I already had a relationship
with the people who were listening (male friends usually). I think it is 
getting a lot of discussion for such a simple topic, and not one of great import.

I recall it was a big surprise when I heard my mother-in-law almost drowned
when I accidentally left her toilet seat up (she was so used to living alone
that she never bothered to look). And I did feel bad, but as I think of it
now, it seems kind of funny. In fact, I can't help but smile (knowing she didn't
get hurt helps).

It just goes to show how little we (all of us) pay attention to the details of
our reality. If I am careful when I urinate, there is still a chance for splatter
to occur. (Probably would make an interesting thesis). I have gotten down on 
hands and knees and checked. It's much more possible for splatter to hit the seat
if it isn't lifted. No one wants to have to use a paper seat cover when they're
at home, but when you've got kids in the house, you tend to reach for the tp
and take a quick pass just in case. Whenever I am brushing my hair or shaving
and my son comes in to pee, I remind him to clean up after himself. Isn't that
what really matters. Everyone tries to leave the world in better shape, or at
least not in worse shape, but don't we have to look ahead anyway, before sitting
down ? Just in case ? And no one's perfect anyway.

Re: < Note 146.55 by CSC32::M_VALENZA "Note naked." >

>    Many women complain about males leaving the toilet seat up after they
>    finish using the restroom.  

I wonder if those women that want men to put the seat down after 
urinating put the seat up when they are done?

Bob

    re: toilet seats, up or down?
    
    When my wife and I were living together, here's how we figured it:
    
     o	We both use the toilet equally
    
     o	She always uses it seat-down
    
     o	I sometimes use it seat-down
    
     o	Therefore, the total number of seat-down usages is greater
    	than the total number of seat-up usages
    
     o	Therefore, the logical position for the seat after usage (that
    	which best anticipates the next usage) is down
    
    Steve

    In re: .67
    
    I think she conned you into accepting a "plan ahead" mode of analysis,
    Steve.  An "equality of effort" analysis would yield very different
    results.  Under this scheme, you do 100% of the lifting, and 100% of
    the lowering (I'm refering only to the seat, not to yourselves). If,
    instead, you never lowered it (even for yourself), the "action count"
    would come out even.  She would still be ahead on effort, since it
    clearly requires more energy to raise than to lower.  Now, in practice,
    you might not want to make her come and lower it whenever you want it
    down, so you would lower it sometimes yourself, and she would be doubly
    ahead.  But she can have no ground for complaint if it is sometimes up
    for her, unless you are deliberately raising it solely in order to create
    extra work for her.
    
    By the way, isn't this one of the many topics that have clearly been
    proven by Ann Landers to be completely impervious to progress or
    agreement despite unlimited discussion for more than a century?
    
    		- Bruce

    What ever happened to the original note... Co-ed Restroom use?  I
    guess we got into minor rat hole details such as whether the seat
    should be up or down or whether (this matters alot!) whether the
    paper should be hung so the roll feeds from against the wall or over
    the top.  I have had an interesting time reading this note... it 
    had never OCCURED TO ME (shows how dated I am I guess) that other
    men on the average WOULDN'T mind if women came into restrooms as
    they were using the urinals... time sure have changed.  I still
    mind.    Jeff

    When I was in graduate school at Syracuse University, I used to 
    visit friends in a dorm which had co-ed restrooms. It felt a 
    little strange the first time, but was no big deal after that. 
    There were showers in these restrooms as well, so one hour in 
    the morning was designated for female only use and one hour set 
    aside for male only use (or some such scheme).

    There were some non co-ed facilities available too.

    I believe the students initiated the system for convenience sake.
    Uni-sex facilities meant more students had a dorm room close
    to a restroom they could use.    

    It worked out fine and the prevailing attitude was that "it was
    no big deal"...

    Bob

    I remember many years ago in Europe (can't remember where) I used
    a public facility that had a door between the male and female
    facilities.  The attendant was an old woman who sat on a chair in
    the ladies side and "kept an eye on" the men's side by leaving the
    door open.  No-one seemd to mind, myself included although it did
    seem a little odd.                           
    
    I suppose it's just what you get used to.
    
    Bob

    	When my brother was living in the dorms at school, they had a
    co-ed bathroom on his floor.  All stalls, for toilets and showers.
    He said it was a little strange at first, but after a while, he
    never really thought about it, and it didn't bother him.  When I
    went to visit him, I also found it a bit strange at first.  But I
    agree that it's what you're used to.

    	The funniest story though, was what they did for parents'
    weekend.  The bathroom had two doors leading in, one on each side
    of a double door in the hallway.  So on one door they put "men"
    and on the other "women".  The parents would split up, go through
    their respective doors, and then turn and look at each other in
    amazement because they were standing in the same place! :^)

    	amy

    We aren't just talking co-ed restrooms on a college campus, are we?  At
    least I didn't thinks so....
    
    -dwight

    When I was in the Navy (mid 60's) and went ashore overseas.. France
    Italy.... guys would come back with stories about the restrooms.
    Cleaning women coming into the mens room in mid use etc.  They were
    AMAZED AND SHOCKED at things like that.  Also the public urinals
    adjacent to main streets in Italy were semiopen to the street.
    Times sure have changed in U.S. mens' attitudes.   Jeff