Conference quark::mennotes-v1

        Besides yourself? Well, I for one hate ties, they always manage
    to get dipped in the speghetti sauce ot salad dressing while walking
    through the food line in the cafeteria, they're uncomfortable as
    hell and serve nothing more than a minor statement of supposed
    respectability and professionalism. But me! I'm currently in a
    financial position where ties are de rigeur. Whenever I've gone
    without one, usually someone asks, "where's your tie" They musta
    been invented by the marquis de Sade....ugh!
    
    Ray

    I like ties. The are much more comfortable then chains for example.
    They are just another decorative thing to wear. I really don't
    understand what the big deal is.
    
    		Alfred

     re .2:
     
     > [Ties] are much more comfortable then chains 
     
     Well, what a wonderful reason to wear a tie.  Perhaps the author of .2
     walks around carrying a chair on his back all day, since that is so
     much more comfortable than walking around carrying a sofa. 
     
     --Mr Topaz

    Ties have their uses.
    
    The occasions upon which I wear a tie are:
    
		o Weddings
		o Funerals
		o Interviews
		o When representing DEC formally, as at DECUS, f'rinstance.
    
    In the office? Not a chance.
    
    Andy

    
    Re .2, the "big deal" about ties is that some men don't like to
    wear them, so why should society dictate that they do?
    
    If *I* were a man, I would not wear ties.  Neither my ex-husband
    or my ex-SO, liked wearing ties, so I've had a lifetime of hearing
    men bitch about ties, and I agree.  Jeans and a t-shirt look much
    sexier (to me).
    
    Lorna
    

    I guess what I should have said in .2 is why don't men like ties?
    I really don't understand most of the complaints I've heard. They
    are *not* uncomfortable in the slightest. A lot of things that men
    don't complain about and do wear are. 'Cowboy boots' with high
    heels, chains, and sandals just to name three.
    
    A do I hear personal preference being called out? I agree. So why
    does society (defined in a limited sense as the set of software
    engineers) demand (and it clearly demands as much as 'outside
    society' does) that men *not* wear ties.

    As a non-conformist I proudly wear my ties. All you sheep feel free
    to leave yours home. :-)
    
    		Alfred    

	Haven't worn one in years (well, at least one:-). A year ago a
	fire destroyed, among other things, the tie I owned. Haven't
	missed it in the slightest...
	
	Yes, they are uncomfortable, they always make me feel like I
	can't breathe.. And I don't wear cowboy boots, anything with
	high heels, chains, or sandals. Or earrings:-).
	
	Unfortunately, my streak will end no later than July when my
	brother gets married (I tried to convince them to live
	together, but to no avail:-).
	
	Mike

	This is'nt the exact quote of something I read in Esquire, but
    	it does say one reason why there are "professional" uniforms
    	like ties (and polished shoes, and pressed navy suits etc.)
    
    	The reason it is a requirment that professional people follow a
    	dress code for doing business, is that it stops you from making
    	an ass out of yourself BEFORE you open your mouth.
    

    hey if it weren't for ties
    

    Well, I'd rather wear an ascot than a tie if we HAVE to wear anything,
    but I don't know how to tie one of them.  Same for a bow tie.  But
    some of us just have to wear ties 'cause of the job.
    
    Why?  Well, I guess so we'll look like our friendly competitors
    from IBM.   :-)
    
    Fit_to_be_tied,
    Steve

    Unfortunately, here in Australia ties are a must in the computer
    world (except in the really hot areas like tropical far north
    Queensland). I feel fortunate that I can get out of wearing a suit!
    
    			Mat.

    
    
    	My Oxford button downs are 17 1/2 in. necks. My neck is 
    	an 18 in. neck [gag]. I really don't want to spend the 
    	money to have them tailor made for my neck, so I don't
    	wear them very often. However, now that I think about it,
    	maybe that's just an excuse....
    
    
    	C.
    
    
    

    Men's business dress is fairly restrictive and very boring.  Ties,
    along with suspenders and socks, represent the few areas in which
    a man can express whatever fashion statement seems appropriate without
    violating (too much) the expectations of customers and collegues.
    I don't understand why we chose to dislike it rather than enjoy
    it.

               <<< HUMAN::ARKD$:[NOTES_ARCHIVE]SOAPBOXI.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -<  The DECbox  >-
================================================================================
Note 34.6                           Neckties                             6 of 35
METEOR::BECK                                          7 lines   2-MAR-1984 14:44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chuck Monia used to explain about neckties as follows:

	It's a well known fact that neckties cut off the flow of
	blood to the brain.

	At DEC, when they make you a manager, they put a necktie on
	you. The tighter they pull, the higher you go.

    
    	RE:.14
    
    	Carry, what do you 18" neck, you HAVE no neck!
    
    	Todd

%!
%	A useful Q&D sign for some environments.	rcd  14-May-86
/r 180 def			% radius of circle
/hw 252 def			% half-width of square containing it
/No {				% finish a little sign
% Translate to the center of where the sign should be (it's 1.75" square).
% Then draw your whatever within a circle of radius 40 and finish with No.
	gsave
	30 setlinewidth 0.8 setgray  % should really set color to red...
	0 0 45 0 360 arc stroke
	r 2 sqrt div dup dup neg exch moveto dup neg lineto stroke
	0 setlinewidth 0 setgray
	hw neg dup moveto hw dup neg lineto hw dup lineto hw neg hw
		lineto closepath stroke
	grestore
} def
/Tie {				% to illustrate "No"
	12 80 moveto 32 120 lineto -32 120 lineto -12 80 lineto
	closepath fill		% knot
	12 72 moveto -12 72 lineto -40 -100 lineto 0 -140 lineto 40 -100 lineto
	closepath fill		% tie
} def
/inch {72 mul} def
4 inch 6 inch translate
Tie No		% (the postfix way to say it!)
showpage

Well, I *LIKE* ties.  I wear ties alot... and suits, too.

And I adore a man in a tie.  It's easier to grab ahold and lead
him where I want him! :*)

Seriously, I've never seen a man in a tie (and a grey pinstripe suit)
that I haven't done a doubletake and thought "Now there's a man who
knows he looks good!".

I'm all for jeans and sneakers and T-shirts, but just like men like
Spandex, I love ties!

Bugsy

     Well i don't mind ties at all. I always thought i could never wear
    one but now i don't even notice when i am. I pretty much have to
    wear one in work, but outside of work i wear ties often (very different
    ties then i would wear to work). And mind you, i *don't* hang out
    in the "brass and glass"  after work Yuppie type spots. I go much
    more for sticky carpets.  
    

    I've been known to wear ties. I have two "dress up" costumes. On
    is a hand tailored dark blue raw silk suit from Hong Kong. The other
    is black formal evening wear. I have regular ties for the suit,
    and three bow ties for the evening wear, white, red, and of course
    black.
    
    Getting all dressed up and going out, to a fancy restaurant or whatever,
    is a BLAST!
    
    Getting dressed up for work? Nahh, not unless it's Haloween.
    
    	-- Charles

    Re: 31.18
    
    On my printer it works better if in the "No" procedure, the 45 is
    replaced by r on the arc call. A context diff follows:
    
    30 setlinewidth 0.8 setgray  % should really set color to red...
    0 0 45 0 360 arc stroke
    r 2 sqrt div dup dup neg exch moveto dup neg lineto stroke
    
    should be
    
    30 setlinewidth 0.8 setgray  % should really set color to red...
    0 0 r 0 360 arc stroke
    r 2 sqrt div dup dup neg exch moveto dup neg lineto stroke
    
    I posted it on our lab door...
    
    	-- Charles

    
    I also really like ties.  Especially linen or silk ones.  I've got a
    dozen or so (and I'm in engineering so there's no requirement to wear
    them to work).  I'm also into suspenders. 

    I think a lot of it is the mindset.  When I've got a tie on, I feel
    more business like.  Depending on what I've got to do, that can be
    helpful. 
    
    When I was at Prime, I took pride in being the only guy on my floor
    that didn't wear a tie.  The floor was all marketing and finance types
    - I was the token engineer, kinda fun but it got old. 
    
    Around here, if you wear a tie into work you get ribbed to death
    (bucking for management eh?).  That was also true at Tektronix.
    
    Steveg

    re: whatever
    
    what is/are Spandex?

    
    
    RE: .17
    
    
    	Toad, Huh!!! Then why do all them 'boxers think I have
    	a red one???
    
    
    	C.
    
    
    

Re: .24

>  I'm also into suspenders. 

Hmm. Not too sure about this. Presumably US-suspenders are not the same as EEC- 
Euro-suspenders. If they are I wouldn't go bragging about!!

Oh yes, ties. Well, I have to wear one. But only to remind me that I'm at work.

Tarik.

                          US Suspenders == UK Braces

Andy, Spandex is a knit material that is EXTREMELY shiny, looks like
satin when you have it on, and is highly elastic so it clings to
every curve that it touches, and it fits VERY tightly.

If you saw the movie GREASE, Olivia Newton-John was wearing Spandex
pants in the last few scenes of the movie.  I think the song was
YOU'RE THE ONE THAT I WANT... not sure.

Anyway, they were usually attributed to the genre of "loose women"
(uhm, probably called tarts over there, called floozies, bimbos,
etc., here) *BUT* exciting clothing has found a new level of respectability
and while some folks still turn their noses up over it, alot of women
realize that dressing kinky is fun and their SO's really enjoy it
as well.  Note:  I did NOT just say that women who wear Spandex are
tarts, floozies, or bimbos!!! I said they USED to be called that... now
it's okay for anyone!

I used it as a comparison because when my husband dresses up for me,
he puts on his grey pinstripe suit and tie, not Spandex, but it's for
the same reason -- to please me.  

Does England have Frederick's of Hollywood?  That's a neverending source
of Spandex and kinky clothes over here.

Bugsy

    Who? :-)
    
    Nope. Never 'eard of 'em.
    
    Sorry guvnor.

    By the way, I wore spandex tights on halloween as part of my costume.
    Most of the women at work loved it. 
    
    	-- Charles

>                    -< DOES England have Fredricks???? ;-) >-


Uh, no...??

but quite a few similar stores,     ;-)

Ann Summers springs to mind as one    

    Where's a good place to buy interesting suspenders?  
    Within 20 miles of Maynard if possible.
    
    SHL
    

    send some mail to Jerry Kew. His family firm makes them.
    
    I can bring out your selections in January...

    There's a place at Quincy Market in Boston that sells all sorts
    of unusual suspenders.  I think it was one of the stall vendors.
    					Steve

re: .15
    Men's business dress is fairly restrictive and very boring.  Ties,
    along with suspenders and socks, represent the few areas in which
    a man can express whatever fashion statement seems appropriate without
    violating (too much) the expectations of customers and collegues.
    I don't understand why we chose to dislike it rather than enjoy
    it.

I dislike it because it's one of those "supposed to" things.  I don't like
to do things just because they've always been done that way, especially (as
with ties) when there's no function involved.  

Not wearing a tie makes at least as much of a statement as wearing one does.
It certainly stands out more.

Another interesting question is: Why is men's dress to restrictive and
boring?  What can we do to change it?

					-- hal

        I'd argue that ties are much *less* comfortable than "chains for
        example" (31.2).  The reason is not the article itself (one could
        reasonably argue that a cloth tie should be more comfortable
        than a metal chain), but that to "properly" wear a tie (in any
        manner which is acceptable to those who wish ties to be worn),
        one must fasten the top button of one's shirt.  Chains may be
        worn loosely on a bare neck, which, to me, is far more
        comfortable.  I don't wear turtlenecks, either, by the way, for
        very similar reasons. 
        
	Though I prefer close fitting clothes elsewhere, clothes
        which closely enclose my neck make me continually feel that
        I am choking, which is not at all pleasant.  Call it a minor
        form of claustrophobia, which perhaps it is.
                
        I suppose an additional reason is as a cultural protest.
        It really bothers me that people consider a strip of cloth
        to be so important, and I refuse to cater to their insecurities.
        
        The last time I recall wearing a tie was for my interview trip
        to Digital.  One of the many reasons I chose to work for Digital
        was that nobody I talked to wore a tie, and having it on made me
        feel completely foolish while walking around in the virtually
        tie-less corridors of the Mill.   Incidentally, I have gained
        enough confidence in myself that I would never again wear
        a tie for an interview.
        
        	/dave

    I also avoid turtle neck shirts because I do not like tight
    fitting clothes around my neck. I do not have any trouble finding
    button shirts that are confortable at the neck though. I don't tie
    my ties to make them tighter then the shirt.
    
    I hate the feel of chains on my bare neck and they look dorky (is
    that a word?) worn over a shirt.
    
		Alfred

	Just sign my name to .38. Just one change, I do wear
	turtlenecks, but the first couple of times I wear a new one I
	end up yanking at the neck until it's comfortably loose.
	
	Mike

    I got used to wearing ties while I was at a private high school,
    where it was required.  Nowadays, I don't wear ties for normal
    activities, but I like to dress up in a suit and tie when the occasion
    requires it (customer presentations, going out to fancy dinner,
    etc.)  It's sort of the "power suit" effect.  I don't find ties
    uncomfortable or restricting - it's the too-tight collars on shirts
    that are too small that bother me.
    
    				Steve

re: .38 (dave)
>        The last time I recall wearing a tie was for my interview trip
>        to Digital.  One of the many reasons I chose to work for Digital
>        was that nobody I talked to wore a tie, and having it on made me
>        feel completely foolish ...

I didn't wear a tie at my DEC interview (5� years ago), because I wanted
them to see what they'd be getting.  The first person I talked to had hair
down the middle of his back, and no one (but the manager) had a tie, so I
figured this would be a good place.

I had jury duty today, and the little booklet they sent out in advance asked
that men wear suits or jackets and ties. I wasn't the only one that ignored
the advise.

The only places that I feel a little out of place is at occasions like
weddings, but I'm getting used to it.  After all, if many people don't like
it, but no one does anything different, nothing will change.

					-- hs

    I wore one today when representing DEC at an exhibition.
    
    It was torn off as soon as possible.

re: .44
� I wore one today when representing DEC at an exhibition.
� It was torn off as soon as possible.

Here's what I don't understand -- if it's so uncomfortable, why wear it?
What's gained?  When will it all end.....................

>                             -< Make a fashion statement >-
>
>    Men's business dress is fairly restrictive and very boring.  Ties,
>    along with suspenders and socks, represent the few areas in which
>    a man can express whatever fashion statement seems appropriate without
>    violating (too much) the expectations of customers and collegues.
>    I don't understand why we chose to dislike it rather than enjoy
>    it.
 
    Bingo!! Someone hit the nail on the head. Make a fashion statement!
    Even your everyday businessman can stand out like a sore thumb if he's
    wearing a bright yellow tie.
    
    I like to wear ties. I like to wear ties because in the software
    engineering environment, I stand out. I'm different. I have a couple
    of leather ties, a few very bright ties, and one with  piano keys
    running down its length. (I'm also looking for a sleek white bow
    tie for a neat black tuxedo shirt I have. Can anyone help?) 
    
    I don't feel choked or uncomfortable in ties, and I don't mind the
    attention ("interview today?"). I also have outrageous tietacks to go
    with those ties. One tietack is actually a button from a WPS keyboard
    that says "Bold" -- as in "bold fashion statement." 
    
    Dare to be different. Stand out! Why be normal? Live a little!
    We only go around once.... make the best of it!

Dave Butenhof said it all:  TIE = NOOSE.

I had a job at an accounting firm where I was forced to wear a tie.  There
 I was, a temporary Kelly Girl employee, doing data entry in an obscure
  corner somewhere, and the president of the company flips out because I'm
   not wearing a tie!

So I wore the same damned tie every day, a red/black striped thing (the
 only tie I had - I've since fed it to pirhanas) that clashed with every
  shirt I wore.  All to keep some corporate fatcat from having a coronary.

Ties have one use.  You can soak them in gasoline and use them as wicks for
 Molotov cocktails, which are thrown at any business establishment that sells
  ties.  'Nuff said.
   <_Jym_>

>Ties have one use.  You can soak them in gasoline and use them as wicks for
> Molotov cocktails, which are thrown at any business establishment that sells
>  ties.  'Nuff said.
        
        Sorry, Jym, I apologize.  Never again will I say that ties
        have no use!  :-) :-)
        
        	/dave

You can also use them for tying your SO to the bed :^)

Read this quick Andy will probably censor it!

Dave.

Dave, what exactly *is* an SO?

Tarik.

        Sex Object?  C'mon, now, Steven.
        
        Most of the time, anyway, when people say SO, they mean
        "Significant Other"... spouse, lifemate, fianc�[e], steady,
        etc.  The basic idea is to remove sexual and lifestyle bias,
        providing a theoretically generic term.  Unfortunately, it's
        often so generic is doesn't mean much (e.g., an SO is generally
        but not always somewhat semi-permanent, but you can't count
        on it).
        
        	/dave

    SO = Significant other, in otherwords boyfriend/girlfriend/child
    or lover, fiance,fiancee, roommate etc. etc. 
    There has been a longish discussion on this in Womannotes q.v.

    	I do not like SO - the "other" is far too impersonal; it makes
    the person sound more like an inanimate object.
                                                 
    	Larry
    

    In DEC ties most often serve as badges of rank or job description.
    In meetings that include tech and non-tech persons the men in ties
    usually affiliate with the sales/marketing function and tells 
    customers to whom they may address non tech issues. By the same
    token lack of ties indicate engineers, and a presenter w/o tie
    is usually assumed to be discussing tech details to a similarly
    non tie wearing audience. Somehow women seem to lack similar 
    apparel to denote their rank and affiliation. Maybe its tailored
    clothing or expensive blouses...?

    What do you guys have against ties?  I like them - it's part of
    "dressing up", which a lot of people enjoy.  I admit I wouldn't
    want to wear one every day, because that would take the fun out
    of wearing one on special occasions.  I don't consider a tie a noose
    any more than I consider a wristwatch to be a handcuff.
    				Steve

    re .59:
    
    > I don't consider a tie a noose any more than I consider a wristwatch 
    > to be a handcuff.  
      
    But a wristwatch IS a handcuff.
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

{RE .57} - POSSLQ assumes heterosexuality.
 <_Jym_>

>    In DEC ties most often serve as badges of rank or job description.
>    In meetings that include tech and non-tech persons the men in ties
>    usually affiliate with the sales/marketing function and tells 
>    customers to whom they may address non tech issues. By the same
>    token lack of ties indicate engineers, and a presenter w/o tie
 

	What is this garbage.....are we to assume that Engineers are
	"outranked" by sales/marketing???


Richard.

    Re .58
    
    Absolute bull!  
    
    When I was a Field Service engineer the policy was that all male
    enigineers *must* wear a tie.
    
    I now work for marketing. I wear a tie when *I* want to!
    
    Edd quite_comfy_today_in_grey_pinstripes_and_marroon_tie

    POSSLQ - persons of opposite sex sharing living quarters.
    From the census forms

>    In DEC ties most often serve as badges of rank or job description.
>    In meetings that include tech and non-tech persons the men in ties
>    usually affiliate with the sales/marketing function and tells 
>    customers to whom they may address non tech issues. By the same
>    token lack of ties indicate engineers, and a presenter w/o tie
 
     Reminds  me  of the first time I attended DECUS (as a customer), at 
     the intro briefing we were told "people with blue ribbons on  their 
     badges are from DEC.  They are experts... unless they are wearing a 
     tie in which case they are marketeers or managers."
     
     /. Ian .\

>    POSSLQ - persons of opposite sex sharing living quarters.

Come on!! You're having me on!! Is this really what it means? Also, does
'sharing' mean as we say 'in the Biblical sense'? 

    	Ties were originally scarves worn by noblemen in the Middle
    Ages.
    
    	In my opinion, ties look okay for certain occasions, but this
    is the 20th Century - let's get our clothes in step with the Modern
    Era.
    
    	Larry
    

    re .67
    
    No I am *not* putting you on. There really is/was a place
    on the census forms for Persons of opposite sex sharing living
    quarters (as distinguished from spouse I believe.)
    
    Bonnie

    Lacking the patience to read through all the responses to this note,
    I may be repeating the opinions of others (I certainly hope so).
    
    I have worn a beard since I was 16 years old, with a few years off
    for various reasons which will be noted in due course.  My original
    intention was probably to be different (we're talking 1956 Boston,
    Massachusetts) but, in time, I grew to like a beard.  In 1958 I
    enlisted in the Marine Corps and lost my beard for four years. 
    Upon regaining freedom I regrew my beard.  Then I joined the US
    Peace Corps.  This was early Peace Corps and many of the instructors
    were not Peace Corps types, simply working folk.  Many of the
    instructors, who had the final say on who went (in my case to India)
    and who did not, believed beards to be a statement of rebellion
    and showed prejudice against wearers of same.  So, I shaved my face
    prior to the end of training and, arriving in India regrew my beard.
    Returning to the US I had difficulty finding employment (Peace Corps
    types were very suspect at the time) so I shaved again and kept
    my Peace Corps posting to myself.  When I acquired employment I
    regrew my beard.  About ten years ago I 'lucked' into a great job
    with a company with a policy against hiring people with beards.
    They were nice enough to explain his to me when they told me the
    job (a very good one) was mine for the taking.  I laughed at once
    again coming face to face with this distrust of bearded people and
    shaved on the Sunday before starting the new job.  On Monday (the
    first day) I shaved for the second and last time.
    
    The point to the history is simple.  I don't believe I am a beard
    or a suit or a haircut or a necktie or anything.  I am me.  If facial
    hair or a piece of wearing apparel is between me and something I
    want then the facial hair of wearing apparel can be altered.  The
    essence of me will not be altered, just a small part of the visual
    me.
    
    If the wedding of a family member meant something to .0 then he
    would have worn a necktie.  His refusal tells me he is as silly
    and small as the person who demanded that he wear a necktie.  Surely,
    .0's persona equates to more than the absence of a necktie!

    One reply said it best for me, it depends on the occasion.  If the
    occasion warrants a tie, then I'll wear one.  I don't normally wear
    a tie because I don't need one, I wear flannel shirts and I would
    look silly with a tie.  Well, some people do wear ties with flannel
    shirts and blue jeans.  In my job, I take a chance of getting dirty
    and being burned with a soldering iron.  I don't need a tie floppy
    around looking for an opportunity to snuggle up to a soldering iron.
    
    I am somewhat shy and don't like to attract attention.  I dress
    conservatively (there's that word again) because it is the best
    way to avoid attention.  I also dress comfortably.  My office is
    in a draft and flannel is warm.  Flannel shirts come in many different
    colors, so I have a better choice.  Mainly, I blend in with my
    co-workers.  Also, I don't wear 'different' hair styles, earrings,
    funny shoes (I wear tennis shoes in the summer and hiking boots
    in the winter [high tops keep the snow out]), hats, or anything
    that will attract attention.  I'm sure that in other areas, you
    can wear these things without attracting attention.  Just out of
    curiosity, can you wear cowboy boots in Boston without getting 
    stares?  How about a punk outfit, spiked hair, etc.  I can wear
    cowboy boots without getting a second glance, however, to wear a
    full blown cowboy outfit complete with hat, would attract attention
    even in Colorado, but not as much as a full blown punk outfit. 
    The afore mentioned cowboy outfit would cause stares within DEC,
    but on the street downtown, it wouldn't get a glance.  People know
    me without a tie and if I wore one, they would notice and I don't
    want to be noticed.  My style is more the 'mountain man' look, rather
    than the 'cowboy' look.  And my lifestyle is similar.  We have city
    people, country people and mountain people, and you can find them
    all within DEC.
    
    My perception of people in DEC, Colorado Springs, engineering is this:
    
    wearing a tie = top management, vendor, FE, interviewee
    no tie but wearing knit pants = engineer, manager
    no tie, wearing blue jeans = technician or assembler
                        
    If I meet someone wearing knit pants, I assume he's an engineer.
    When I go to meetings, I notice what kind of pants guys wear and
    generally, techs wear blue jeans and engineers wear knit pants.
    
    The majority don't have beards, and beards seem to be about equally
    divided between engineers and techs.
                   
    As for women, the best dressed are secretaries, then come engineers,
    and then techs and assemblers.  There is really not a lot of difference
    between secretaries and engineers, or between techs and assemblers.
    Probably because engineers have techs to do their dirty work.  (Oh,
    no, that's sure to turn up the heat, where's my flame retardant
    underwear ;-) ).
                  
    Spence

    
    	Man, you are aware of your suroundings Spence.
    
    	Todd

    >	Man, you are aware of your suroundings Spence.

    Todd, you may have noticed I meant general observations, not conclusive
    facts.  And I should have specified 'electronic and mechanical
    engineering'.  I don't include component engineering or software
    engineering.  I am plenty aware of my surroundings when I have a
    reason to be.  Or should I have taken your typical one-liner as a 
    compliment?
    
    Spence

        .72: Gee, I don't recall seeing many knit pants around here...
        anyway, our typical image of an engineer (here in software
        engineering land) is jeans and t-shirt (though the latter
        are moderately scarce this time of year).
        
        Cowboy boots may be worn without much attention... cowboy
        hats stand out a bit more.  I know... I used to wear both.
        
        	/dave

                                          
    Spence,
    
    	No reason to take the comment at all. I have never put that
    much effort into the people around me. Yes, you can take that
    as a compliment.
    
    Todd

    OK, Todd, my first instinct told me that it was a jab.  I humbly
    apologize for slapping back.
    
    RE .75, should we assume that you are in Mass.?
    
    I have a survey on blue jeans vs. other 'lower body apparel'.  In
    my original reply, I lumped all 'other' as 'knit', then realized
    that what I meant by 'knit' was actually anything other than blue
    jeans.  I'm beginning to notice that my notes are vague because
    I leave out details to try and prevent my notes from being extremely
    long.  I will try to start including details for clarity.
    
    I will try to find another note to include my survey in and leave
    this one for ties.  I have succeded in changing the subject from
    ties to pants.  BTW, I only found one person who regularly wears
    a tie, a mechanical engineer from England.
    
    Spence

    The subject's a little old, but I new to his conference, so I'll reply
    anyway. 
    
    Ties: Basically I dislike them.  When I am acting as an official
    representative of Digital I'll wear one (and even a sport jacket with
    it), but NEVER into work (except for vendor meeting, again, official...)
    I've also been known to wear one when acting as a substitute organist,
    going out for a special dinner or meeting, etc. It feels nice to
    be all dressed up WITH some place to go once in awhile. 
    
    A short amusing story:  When I was a resident Field Service engineer at
    Bell Labs in Holmdel, NJ, our management decided we all needed to wear
    ties to work.  Mind you NONE of our customers wore ties and were very
    used to us NOT wearing one.  Well, all of us save one wore ties in
    every day.  One day the gent who refused to wear a tie very seriously
    asked me if I was colorblind.  I responded that I wasn't and asked why
    he asked.  He said because the ties I wore never went with anything
    else.  I replied, "I was told to wear a tie.  They didn't say it had to
    MATCH".  I had a rather good collection of UGLY ties.  Shortly there
    after the tie requirement was dropped.  I still have that peach
    tie..... 

    -Bob

    	One reason for not wearing a tie (at least in a bar) comes out
    of a story from one of my relatives.  Seems my uncle (who was a
    career Marine) was in a bar with uniform on (which includes a tie)
    when he became involved in an altercation with another party (I
    don't have any details on the whys or wherefores of the altercation).
     Anyway, in short order he found himself being twirled around and around
    by this monster who was holding onto the end of his tie (They are
    strong, the ties I mean).  The most foolish he's ever felt according
    to him.  Anyway, the next day he threw out all the ties he had (which
    were the types that you have to "tie" and bought a brand new lot
    of them which were the clip-on variety.  So let this be a lesson
    to all you fighters out there who occasionally like to take on the
    world,  if you're wearing a tie when the occasion arises and it's
    not a clip-on, it's a good idea to remove it before proceeding.
    
    Rich
    

    Hi!
    
    I think ties look nice when a man has got to be dressed up, but
    I'm more concerned with my SO's comfort, than that.  He absolutely
    hates ties!  Ties aren't very comfortable in 90+ degree weather.
    I wish he didn't have to wear one at work, but its the rule down
    here at the Atlanta CSC.  
    
    I work in Office Automation - and the men are also supposed to wear
    ties.  Quite a few still won't, and many of those who do, wear the
    ugliest ties you could imagine.  (Mustard/Gray yellow diagonal stripes,
    with Flouresent yellow diagonal stripes - Lovely!!!
                                       
    Of course we also have our "Fish Tie Day".  Where many, including
    on of our managers, wear fish ties.
        
    I really don't think it's fair to "make" men wear ties.
    
    P.S.  Ties do come in handy when keeping my SO in line - even tho'
    he's alot bigger than me!  (of course, everyone's bigger than me
    - 5.0, 91.5lbs)  JUST TEASING!!!!!! :-) :-) :-)
    
    Bye!
    
    Corinne
    
        

    I've been moderately astonished since joining Digital to see the
    vehement reactions to what I had previously considered as standard
    business dress.  Suits and ties, black oxfords.  Here I'd gone and
    spent years with a short haircut wearing Air Force blue uniforms,
    I finally get to pick out my own respectable-looking clothes and
    my coworkers just give me no end of comments.  I *enjoy* the look.
    I've been looking forward to it for years.  Its *so much nicer*
    than wearing blue double-knit polyester!!!
    
    I work as a software specialist, I've just entered a one-year 
    residency in a customer site where very few people wear suits; 
    the other two DEC residents wear cords, open collar shirts, 
    sometimes a dress or skirt but nothing fancy.  The customer is used
    to it.  So what recent grief did I take for wearing a suit to work?
    Searching for a word to describe me, one of my two fellow residents
    described me as a "marketing type".  arrrggghhh.  I let her know
    it bothered me.
    
    Pigeonholed for overdressing.  Who'd ever believe it?  I thought
    my long hair would protect me ;=).  I remain unrepentent; I still
    wear my ties.    I daresay that DEC's corporate culture needs
    a bit more tolerance towards those of us who so choose.   Thats
    *you folks* who, as a previous topic mentioned, (~30.200) find that 
    "its easy to dump on suits".
         
    DougO

    G'day,
    
    re -.1 Good one, Doug O.
    
    I started work in an insurance office in the City of London. Wearing
    of a suit AND tie was compulsory.
    
    I still (some 25 years later) choose to wear a suit and tie , though,
    in the somewhat laid-back Australian lifestyle, I have come to terms
    with removing my jacket at work. (but not my tie!! :-) )
    
    How you look does give some impression  of how you regard you work.
    
    Derek
     

    
    re .81
    
    You can wear what you like. Just be aware that people will make
    those kinds of judgements.
    
    People expect software types to dress the part just as they expect
    sales and marketinng types to dress their parts. You can buck the
    trend; this is America, after all, but don't be suprised at having
    to re-establish credibility often. 
    
    I wear suits occaisionaly. I'll even be buried in one.
    
    BTW - when I got out of the Army in '73 I couldn't get rid of that
    green suit fast enough!

    Hang in there, Doug.  "Fashion", being what it is, suits will
    no doubt become a "trend" sooner or later and then you will 
    have been "the vanguard".  Remain unrepentent!
    
    BTW, it seems to me that your story serves well to remind us of
    our corporate roots and values:  are we not the company who takes
    so much pride in doing things a little differently than all the
    others?  Seems to me that when "Jeans (or whatever) are what I wear 
    to work" becomes "Jeans are what we wear here" (barely unstated 
    expectation) we've started to lose the beat.
    
    Steve
    
    P.S.  Wanna have some real fun?  Start coming into work in a
          Manufacturing group wearing a coat & tie. . .
    

    
    	Another woman's point of view:
    
    	I find men in ties, even without a suit, can give a 
    	man such sex appeal!  Add on a suit, and I'm yours!
    	Of course, other attire can be sexy, but a tie with
    	jeans is my favorite! 
    

    
    > Add on a suit, and I'm yours!
    
    I'm running home to change, right now.
    
    Do you prefer black or grey?

    
    
    	> Do you prefer black or grey?
    
    	Both!  Depends on your hair color, you
    	decide which is best.  If you have gray
    	hair, go for the black!  Any other color,
    	go gray!  
    
    	How far do you live??  And when can you be
    	here??

    
    
    	I know RANCHO is in CA.  That's why I asked how long???
    	
    	I can wait 6 hours.....hey Bob, lemme know your ETA,
    	I'll meet you at the airport, unless, of course, you
    	are wearing a -brown- tie.  Then maybe I'll let the
    	moonies get you.
    
    	

    Hmm... I'm a lot closer to Chelmsford than Bob is...  can dig out
    my nice Brooks Brothers suit... :-)
    
    				Steve

    
    	Brooks Brothers???? (pant pant) ?!?!
    	But what about the tie?  How many do you have?
    	How many different colors?  
    
    	See guys..your wearing ties *is* really appreciated.
    	Even though it may be uncomfortable and hinder your
    	productivity, a tie can enhance a *different* kind
    	of productivity...and, well, look at the effect they
    	have on me!  I am an absolute sucker for a tie......
    	
    	Bo

    I have whole bunches of ties - I never wear a brown one (my suit
    is dark grey).  I don't find suits and ties uncomfortable - I like
    the way I look in them.  I only wear them on certain occasions -
    not to work (unless I'm doing a customer visit).  The ties I wear
    most often are solid grey or blue, blue with red and gold diagonal
    stripes, or red with blue and gold "diamonds" (not sure how to
    describe it).  Looks sharp.  I have a gold and onyx tie tack to
    go with it.  (Have gold and onyx cuff links too, but only for special
    occasions!)
    
    				Steve

    
    
    	Brown ties, I must admit, have never appealed to me -
    	and black goes along with it.
    
    	Grey and blue seem to be my favorites, and have rarely seen
    	a tie I didn't like in these colors (except, of course, 
    	on Paul Simon).
    
    	So....uh.......ya got all these ties, eh? [see .51]
    
    	(teehee)
    
    	Bo
    	
    	

    I mean I went to a tailor and had the suit altered to fit me perfectly.
    It cost only $35 and was well worth it.  Luckily I haven't changed
    my size all that much since I bought the suit!
    
    Gee...  Chelmsford is only 10 minutes away....
    
    				Steve

    
    One of mine is a Givenchy, black, side vents, pin stripes.
    
    With my "ic mask" tie, I use it to impress customers...
    
    Another one is a "no name" from the local volume outlet. Its
    comfortable and baggy in all the right places (lost 20lbs since
    I bought it)..
    
    I like wearing it with some of my Dads old 1940s era ties (blinding
    patterns, 2 hands wide) or my yellow leather tie an inch wide...
    
    
    

    G'day from Downunder,
    
    My wife sometimes makes her own dresses and I get a tie from the
    off-cuts. Got some _real_ jazzy ties and we match!
    
    derek
    

    
    	
    	re: 95
    
    	10 minutes away, eh?  So where do we have "lunch"???
    
    	Wear dark blue!
    
    	
    	

    
    
    	Sorry Bob, you are too far away -
    	but the Givenchy is something to imagine.
    
    	Bo_who_is_obsessed_with_suits_and_ties
    

    
    
    	Sounds good, CASVO1::.
    
    	Sounds like a marvy combination!  
    
    	What does FWIW mean? ;^)  
    
    	Bo

    
    
    	Like I said before, jeans with ties, and oh, especially
    	with the sleeves rolled up!  Men's forearms are one of my
    	favorite parts of the body.
    
    	45 ties??  Where did you say you were?
    
    	Bo
                               

    
    
    	ugh....you looked me up in ELF, and discovered
    	the family secret, my *real* name (smarty).  It's
    	only used legally, and my heart palpatates (sp?)
    	when I hear it.  People call me that at the strangest
    	times....
    
    	Snowmen *do* wear ties well.  So do men with dark 
    	tans, dogs, construction workers who interfere with
    	your trying to get to work (they serve a great purpose
    	here - lasso the workers and drag them for taking to
    	long and making us poor, un-air-conditioned folk suffer
    	in the heat).
    
    	Bernardine, eh?
    
    	Bo

    
    Somewhere in here, there should be a GREAT pun about "Bo Ties..."
    
    ;-)
    
    Ed E.

	To me ties are a form of fashion slavery and I feel choked
	in them. I also always manage to get them in the soup and/or
	spill  sauce on them; the result being that they cant be cleaned.
	Cant the fashion folks come up with an advanced idea. The dam 
	ties have been around for years. Anyway would the women prefer
	a view of our sexy hairy chests? :-)

    
    
    	re: 108
    
    	No view of the hairy chest, please.  Leave something                   
    	for our imagination (women have that too, ya know).
    	
    
    	Bo_ties_for_Paul_Simon          
    

    
    
    On the subject of ties; there's just one pet peeve I have.  I just
    hate seeing someone wearing a tie that ends in the middle of his
    stomach, or worse, a tie that covers his pants zipper.  A tie should
    end right at the top of the belt buckle.
    And let's not forget men who just don't know how to tie a tie!
    There's always one guy who looks like he's got this horse knot 
    around his neck, where his collar can't stay down because of the
    large size of the knot.
    
    If you wear a tie, wear it right!

    
    
    	Silly goose,
    
    	we have *imaginations* too!  I noticed alot of men
    	prefer to have women hiding some sort of their body,
    	for the imagination.
    
    	Well, we like it too!

    Re: .110
    
    I sometimes have trouble with getting the length right, being so
    tall.  I find if I let it go down to the belt buckle, it folds up
    in my lap when I sit down.  I figure that if I get the small end
    to come to just below the label on the back of the big end that
    I've done ok.  Most ties are a bit too short for me, though, so
    this may affect things.
    
    				Steve

    
    I always thought ties were supposed to end halfway down the
    shirt front.
    
    My uncle in Milwaukee will be suprised to hear that. 
    

    
    RE.114
    
    	There's a shop in the Manchester, NH Mall, that I get my ties
    at.  I too, am tall, and have a hard time finding ties that will
    fit.  Can't remember the name of it, but all they sell are ties
    and belts.
    
    	As far as Bob's uncle, gee, that's a shame, someone will have
    to break the news to him.
    
    	Ties are not just a rope around your neck.  A tie can say alot
    about your sense of style.  Some men could take a few lessons from
    the ladies, because a tie, like a belt or a purse or jewelry on
    a woman, is an accessory, and should go with the outfit you're wearing.
    And the styles they have out nowadays really gives you some good
    choices.
    
    
    

    Re: .116
    
    Yes, I am in Nashua, and I've seen that shop, but haven't liked
    the ties they sell.  Oh well....  I'll keep looking.
    
    Related to ties - a couple of products that tie-wearers might be
    interested in.  My favorite silk tie had a stain on it, and I
    didn't know if it would come out.  I found a product (at a CVS
    drugstore) called "Outright", that explicitly mentions that it
    works for silk.  Whattya know - it does!  Wonderful!
    
    I also picked up a bottle of "Tie Protector Spray" from Brookstone,
    which supposedly, when applied to a tie, allows you to just blot
    off spills.  Again, it says it's good for silk.  I have put it on
    my tie - doesn't seem to hurt it - but can't yet attest to its
    protective abilities.
    
    				Steve

    
    There is a specialty tie store in Monterey, Ca. I'll see if 
    I can dig up an address.
    
    My uncle is simple Slovak folk, funloving and with no
    pretensions to grandeur. Somehow I hardly think it matters...
    
    A Teflon tie would be a great advance for humanity, however...

    RE: Hairy chests et al
    
    A tie on a man is like a bow on a present. It makes the package
    more complete and is often quite fun to unwrap. 8^)
    
    Gail

    
    "A tie on a man is like a bow on a present. It makes the package
     more complete and is often quite fun to unwrap. 8^)"
    
    But, please, please, ladies; make sure you know how to untie a
    tie first!!  You don't want to go choking the guy before you get
    the package unwrapped!!!  It's not fun watching your Christmas
    present turn blue!!!
    8*)
    

    And for something quite a bit less compelling; invent a smiley icon
    wearing a tie.
    
    DougO

    RE: .120
    
    So, are you going to tell us, or wait til we learn the ackward way?

    This just in from the wires of United Press Unintentional:
    
    Dateline Chelmsford, Ma:
    
    37 men were injured today, four seriously, in what local authorities
    are describing as a "stampede".  Eye witnesses describe a "kind
    of rumbling like thunder or an earthquake" then report seeing "a
    sea of guys dressed in suits and ties" descending on the residence
    of one Bo Pederson of Chelmsford.  In the words of one witness,
    "It was a horrible scene. . .they were all trampling over one another
    and screaming stuff like "Brooks Brothers", "Calvin", "Botany",
    and "Yves, Yves".  It was like some kind of mass hysteria"
    
    Although Ms. Pederson was unavailable for comment, one neighbor 
    claims she remarked that "Well, yeah, I suppose it was a little messy, 
    but it was the *best dressed* mess you've ever seen!"
    
    Details and film at 11.
    

    re: .115
    
    While you're at it, you might as well let him know that there
    are other fabric choices besides polyester and other patterns
    available than hand-painted, day-glow nudes.
    
    It came as a shock to me, too.
    
    Steve
    

    Re: .123
    
    At least spell her name right - it's "Petersen".
    
    			Steve

    
    	re: 121
    
    	Thanks, Steve, for mentioning the correction of my name.
    
    	I wasn't available for comment because I was *under*
    	that stampede.  
    
    	Loved every minute of it...
    	

    re: .125
    
    I never did trust that reporter to get his stuff straight. . .
    
    (other) Steve  (appropriately red-faced, submitting editorial
    		    retrations, etc)
    

    .129
    
    A CLIP-ON!?!?!?!?!!!!
    
    No, say it ain't so, Joe!!
    Men really don't wear clip-on ties, do they?
    Last time I wore a cip-on tie, I was 6 years old and it was Easter
    Sunday.
    
    Ooooh! How gauche!
    8*)

    RE. 130, clip-on's have a use even today. When I was a cop, we used
    clipons, so the tie couldn't be used as a grip. Its rather amusing
    to watch some troublemaker grab you by the tie, only to have it
    snap off in his hand. Also, clip-ons can be handy if you work around
    moving machinery.
    
    Eric
    

    Re: .129
    
    Though pulling the narrow end of the tie through the knot is the
    way I most often remove one, I have read in several places that
    this is a "no-no", as it crumples the narrow part of the tie.
    Supposedly, the "right" way to remove the tie is to undo the knot
    in the reverse manner of how you tied it.
    
    				Steve

    The proper way to remove a necktie is with scissors, as it leaves 
    the silly thing obviously useless.
    
    One thing I notice around ZK is when there are large numbers of ties 
    in evidence, there are no parking spaces available. (My usual 
    comment when this happens is "the overhead is under foot".) Outlaw 
    ties, and we won't have any more trouble finding places to park.

    
    The proper way to remove a tie is with a chainsaw. Used correctly,
    this method also eliminates unsightly 5 o'clock shadow.
    
    Works on belts, too.

From:	LILITH::CALLAS "This message sent with 100% recycled bits  25-Jan-1991 1336" 25-JAN-1991 13:51:29.59
To:	ERISTOCRACY
CC:	
Subj:	Sometimes a tie is just a tie

From:	BLUMON::GORDON "WAYLAY is currently unavailable - mail to {BLUMON|LOWELL}::GORDON  13-Sep-1990 1030" 13 September '90 10:35 am
To:	WEIRD_STUFF
CC:	VALM,JON,MRMIKE::ROSEN,STAR::MANN
Subj:	ties...

From:	MRKTNG::SZKLARZ      "We'll paint it!" 13-SEP-1990 10:14:30.33
To:	DOUG
CC:	
Subj:	neckties...

From:	HYEND::CSKERRY "13-Sep-1990 0953" 13-SEP-1990 09:53:46.20
To:	@PERS.DIS
CC:	
Subj:	Female Boss bans Neckties????



FEMALE BOSS BANS NECKTIES AS PHALLIC SYMBOLS

 -- The Sraits Times, 29-Aug-1990, Singapore.

Hanover (West Germany) -- Male civil servants in a West German office are
hot under the collar after their female boss banned neckties as phallic
symbols.

The order has sparked a knotty sexism row in the State Culture Ministry in
the northern state of Lower Saxony.

"I want to know...if bureaucrats wearing ties will be prosecuted as sexual
exhibitionists," former culture minister Horst Horrmann said in a written
question to the state legislature.

His successor, Ms Helga Schuchard, has apparently ordered male employees in
her ministry to end the centuries-old fashion.

Her spokesman confirmed that the minister twice told staff not to wear
ties, but this was because of a mid-summer heat wave.

"However, the word phallus may have come up," the spokesman said.

The Bild newspaper quoted sex researcher Volker Zimmermann yesterday as
saying:  "A tie is a sign of strength and masculinity."

Mr Peter Spoor, a police inspector, was cynical:  "The woman should ask
herself if she should keep buying bananas.  They are phallic symbols, too."
--Rueter.

    Unfortunately, for some people anything longer than it is wide is a
    phallic symbol...