Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Let's assume for a moment that could/did help him out financially. How would
his parents react to your assistance? And how would that affect you?

If you can deal with that, can you perhaps "borrow" the $350, or some part
thereof, to help him out, with an agreement that he'll repay you when he's
able? (I'm assuming it may be easier for you to get credit for a small
amount than it would be for him.)

-Jack

    Maybe what these kids need is someone who asks the right questions.
    It's possible that Planned Parenthood or one of the other clinics has
    a sliding scale based on the ability to pay.  If the kdis just called
    and asked how much an abortion costs, the clinic might not have offered
    that info.  Might be worth a try to call them and see.

    	Gateway Health in Nashua N.H. is a women's health clinic with a
    sliding scale for fees.  They do not do abortions but they will counsel
    on all options and ways to pay for medical procedures.  I'm sure in
    Mass you have similar facilities.  If you called gateway they may have
    a list of associated agencies in your area.  I know that they deal with
    a lot of teenagers at gateway.
    
    Al

    Hello.
    
    I hope I am not tromping on anyone's feelings here, but why is an
    abortion necessary?  Would it be possible for her to carry it to term
    and possibly put it up for adoption?  I don't know what the family
    background is but I truly feel that abortion is wrong.  (I am not
    preaching or passing judgement, I am just trying to give more options)
    
    Along with the Gateway Health clinic mentioned in .3, she/they might
    want to consider going to a Crisis Pregnancy Center in the area.  I
    volunteer for one here in St. Louis and we help many young women in the
    exact same position as your nephew's girlfriend.  They will not
    recommend for abortion, but they will shed some light on what the
    abortion will do(besides the obvious).  They will counsel her/them on
    what the options are, such as, adoption, parenting, etc.
    
    Before she/they make a decision to abort the baby, please urge them to
    talk to someone from the CPC near you.  You could probably find them in
    the phone book.  

    It's not necessary -- it's their choice.
    
    					andrew

re:   <<< Note 1195.5 by VMSMKT::KENAH "The man with a child in his eyes..." >>>

>>    It's not necessary -- it's their choice.
>>    
>>    					andrew
    
    
    Andrew,
    
    I realize it is their choice now and it would be after they talked to
    someone about alternatives to abortion.  The Crisis Pregnancy Center
    does not (read that *NOT*) impose any philosophy regarding abortion
    other than what is Biblical.  The clients are encouraged to listen, but
    are not forced.  If they wish to discontinue the discussion for any
    reason, the discussion is stopped.
    
    Often times, clinics like "Planned Parenthood" and their colleagues
    are not completely up front about what occurs during an abortion, the
    side effects of abortion (such as Post Abortion Syndrome, which can take 
    years to manifest) or that what they are carrying is an actual human
    being, not a "clump of cells" (I refer you to a case tried in
    Morristown, NJ, where a man was suing his girl friend to prevent her
    from aborting  their 8-week fetus she was carrying.  The judge in the case 
    ruled that the "fetus" was in fact a living human being.)  Also, abortion 
    clinics, like Planned Parenthood, are not always looking out for the well 
    being of their clients.  Abortion is big industry in this country and
    millions of dollars are made from performing them.  There is not a lot
    of incentive for abortion mills to counsel a client on anything other
    than what pays for the "Beemer" in the driveway.
    
    All I was saying is that the nephew and/or his girl friend seek out
    what their options are.  The best decision is a well informed one.  
    Contrary to popular belief, abortion does not "make the problem go away".
    It can, in fact, be the beginning of a lot more...
    
    Jim

    
    
    re -1
    
    Jim
    
    The basenoter stated that these two kids had the permission of a judge.
    That means that the girl's parent's would not sign a consent form for
    an abortion of a woman under 18.  So she has already made up her mind.
    Why do you question whether or not her decision is an informed one?
    
    Clearly the base note states this is the option chosen.  
    
    Michele

    
    	re. 6 & 7 
    
    	If I can play philosopher for a moment,  there is no way to make a
    	completely informed decision about this question.  It's good to 
    	learn and think about the decision so that you feel you've made the
    	best decision you can.  But you would  have to know both yourself
    	really well and also be able to look into your future to make a 
    	really good decision.  In this situation,  you have to make up 
    	your own mind and accept the fact that, whatever the decision, you 
    	may find out later that the decision was wrong.
    
    	Whatever they decide,  they have my respect for dealing with the 
    	situation.  He could have run away and he didn't.  She could have 
    	left him out of the decision but she didn't.  Two good decisions on 
    	their part.
    
    						philosopher-at-large 

And they have the guts to stand up, ask for help, and make a decision.
Thats getting rare today.  Hope they turn out OK.

    re .8
    
    Only the pregnant woman knows what is the best decision.  She is the
    one who will have to live with that decision.  Regardless of whether
    or not others may think it wrong, the decision she chooses is the
    right decision for her.
    
    "There is no way to make a completely informed decision about this
    question."  Sorry ,but I disagree.  It really is pretty straight
    forward.  Having been there I can tell from experience.  You have
    three options.  1 have the baby and raise the baby yourself. 2 have
    the baby and give it up for adoption. 3 abort the pregnancy.
    Each option has the uncertainty associated with them which really
    just does not affect the decision.  One can not live by the "What
    if" theory.  
    
    Michele

    re: .7
    
    Hi Michele.
    
    >>Why do you question whether or not her decision is an informed one?
   
    I am questioning the decision based on the information given in the
    base note.  All that was said was that a judge had given consent for
    her to have an abortion, the uncle/aunt had given them the PP phone
    number and the kids got a quote for $350 to have the abortion done.
    
    Based on this information, I don't see anywhere that they have
    considered alternatives to abortion.  Have they investigated what could
    happen if all of the fetus is not removed?  Do they know that her
    uterus could be lacerated and she could have severe blood loss?  Does
    she know that during the D&C, that her cervix could be damaged such
    that when, later in life, she decides to have children, it would not
    close as it is supposed to and, thus, cause a miscarriage?
    
    There are many, many things to consider that could go wrong.  None of
    these are mentioned by the base note.  I do question the amount of
    knowledge the kids have when all I hear is that "I am pregnant and I
    need/want an abortion".  
    
    I can appreciate the dilemma they find themselves in and I am glad to
    see the young man standing by her in her time of need.  But, maybe
    their decision isn't as well informed as they think.
    
    Jim

    
re:.10

   " Only the pregnant woman knows what is the best decision.  She is the
    one who will have to live with that decision.  Regardless of whether
    or not others may think it wrong, the decision she chooses is the
    right decision for her."

    I hope this will be the case.  I've made some decisions in my life that 
    has turned out to be wrong.  Perhaps the decision to become pregnant
    turned out to be wrong.  I think decisions depend on the situation.
    For example (and I know this is a trivial example), say I'm at the 
    grocery store deciding whether to bring home some ice cream.  For me
    this is a simple decision.  Now let's say that my that my girlfriend
    (hypothetical) is a diabetic who can't leave ice cream alone.  Now the 
    decision gets just a bit more complex.  

    For me decisions become more difficult when they involve peole I 
    care about and I want to do the right thing.  If I was the woman in
    in this case ( which would take some doing),  I'd make whatever 
    decision seemed best and promise myself that whatever happened,  I'd 
    wish myself luck,  learn what I could from the ordeal,  and get on 
    with my life.

    And now, before the god of the network partners intercedes,

						so long
    
       

	To the Basenoter:

	As far as getting enough money goes....some health insurances
	cover abortions.  I'm not sure if this would be a viable 
	alternative because it would involve informing her parents.

	I not advocating forcing her to tell her parents, and I'm certain
	you know much better than I whether it would make sense.  But I also
	want to suggest that she consider the added strain of not telling 
	them.  She may find herself not feeling well for a few days afterwards 
	or in need of comforting/support and want/need her parents then.
	
	I would think it would be tough for a 17 year old to go through
	almost by herself (except for you and her boyfriend) but I can also
	imagine a 17 yr old being stubborn and proud enough to feel she 
	can handle it.  I can't decide which is the right way to go....only
	she can.


	Now for my tirade:
  
(.4)
> They [the Crisis Pregnancy Center] will not
>    recommend for abortion, but they will shed some light on what the
>    abortion will do(besides the obvious).  
	
	Planned Parenthood will shed a lot of light on what an abortion
	means.  They will describe the procedure, the effects including 
	possible bad side effects/risks, *AND* have the girl talk to a 
	counselor before agreeing to perform the procedure to make sure 
	it is really what she wants to do, and for the right reasons.

(.6)
>    The Crisis Pregnancy Center
>    does not (read that *NOT*) impose any philosophy regarding abortion
>    other than what is Biblical.  
    
	What can be the Biblical philosophy when some Christian* churches are
	pro-choice and some that aren't?

	* I say Christian because I don't know what the Jewish position is
	  and I don't know of other religions besides those two that use 
	  the Bible as text. 

(.11)
>   Have they investigated what could
>    happen if all of the fetus is not removed?  Do they know that her
>    uterus could be lacerated and she could have severe blood loss?  Does
>    she know that during the D&C, that her cervix could be damaged such
>    that when, later in life, she decides to have children, it would not
>    close as it is supposed to and, thus, cause a miscarriage?
  

	It is a well publicized fact that a first trimester abortion is
	safer for a woman than carrying a fetus to term.  There is also
	very little chance of damaging the potential for healthy and 
	complete pregnancies in the future.

	I would hope that this girl (and all others in her position) get 
	*ALL* the facts, not just the facts that a certain (anti-abortion) 
	organization supports.  From what I've read, it seems like Planned 
	Parenthood offers a more complete set of alternatives.


	-Barbara

    re.14
    
       I also had the same situation, I was older (30) but I did not have 
    the benefit of the father to stand at my side. (he told me over the 
    phone "Well, can't you 'take care' of it?", and I have not heard from 
    him since.)  I also felt I was letting my parents down.  They brought
    me up Catholic and well I just shouldn't have been doing that anyways.
    I also have to live with them and wonder daily if the same person who
    badgered me to abort the child can honestly love that same child as a
    granddaughter.  But I know I didn't let myself down.  I know I didn't
    let my daughter down.  And no matter how tough life may get, at least 
    I don't have to wonder for the rest of my life (because I have known 
    people who had abortions 10, 15 years ago and they still wonder.  And
    no other child takes that place.)  Perhaps they came to you with the 
    hope that you would offer at least emotional support for an alternative
    to abortion.  Just someone to help them tell their parents.  I know in
    my life I sometimes will ask for the least that I need in hope that 
    someone will offer the most.  
    

    Re .10,
    
    I'm sorry but you have ruffled some feathers here.  WHY do you feel
    that it is only the woman who has to 'live with the decision?"  you
    feel the man is incapable of wondering about the unborn child?  That
    his child will have no affect on his life?  I really think it's a slam
    against men in general.  Maybe it's been your experience but to include
    all of us in a comment like that is a bit COLD don't you think?  
    
    I went through an abortion with my ex-wife, we carefully discussed it,
    looked at options then decided that overall with all the uncertainty in
    our lives at that time, an abortion was the best solution.  It was a
    mutual decision made by us both after long talks and much fact
    gathering.  To this day I wonder about that kid.  Would he have been
    the same child as the son we later had?  What would he be doing now? 
    What interests would he/she have?  Would it have been the daughter I
    wanted but will probably never have now?  
    
    These are things this couple also need to stop and think about.  When
    we went through the abortion procedure, there was no doubt in my mind
    that I would be able to live with it, in fact forget about it without 
    any cares or worries later in life.  I'm convinced that to this day,the 
    dicision made back then was with the facts at hand at that time, the
    right one.  But I will always wonder, I'm not against abortion.  In
    fact, I'm a strong supporter of them.  What I AM against, is that there 
    are a lot of things that just aren't brought up in the counseling
    available on the subject.  It's possible these two kids will go there 
    seperate ways eventually and never think about it again once it's
    finished, but it's also possible that it will haunt them later in life.
    They should be warned about that as well.  
    
    It's there dicision and if they want to take the abortion then they
    have that right.  It sounds to me that they did not ask the proper
    questions at PP however, as I recall, they will allow a payment
    schedule for people based on income.  I could be mistaken, it's been 
    a while since I had to deal with that issue.  But there must be some
    way availabe to them that will help them out.  A further suggestion is
    to contact the school counselors where they go to school I'm sure that
    they could offer some suggestions on the matter as well.  
    
    Skip

    
    
    re -1
    
    "why do you feel it is only the woman who has to "live with the
    decision?"
    
    Because ultimately she is the one who went through with the procedure
    and will be held accountable for it.  Have you ever heard of a
    father of an aborted fetus called a murderer by the prolife faction?
    Is the father's medical insurance the one which pays for the abortion?
    Is this included in the fathers medical history?  For woman the effects
    are carried not only in the heart, but in things such as above.
      
    
    I would hope that each parent has a say in the process.  However, it
    still comes down to the woman being the one who has to take the
    responsibility for the abortion.  Please don't think I am minimizing
    the father's role in this.  I feel for both the women and men who
    have had to go through this life experience.  I am sure there are
    many men who feel the same way you do, but again it is the woman not
    the man who is held responsible for the action.
    
    Please don't feel the need to apologize.  You have an opinion on this
    from first hand experience.  Noone can deny your feelings.  BTW I have
    been told by some men that my point of view is exactly as you had
    expressed.  It is my opinion and whether folks agree with it or not
    will not change.  
    
    Personally, I think that women and men do not look at it in the same
    light.  
    
    Michele

    My medical insurance payed for the abortion.  My sisters, and two of my
    closest friends stopped talking to me for 6 years because I helped in
    the decision for the abortion.
    
    And because I pay the price for it... in the heart... I feel you're
    unjust.  Granted some guys don't own up to beng as responsible for it
    as the woman.  But the only difference between my ex and I in the
    matter, is that she went in for surgury and I didn't.  How she lives
    with it now is her problem granted.  But to sit and accuse ME of such
    things, is completly unjust.  It is a mutual decision and I suffered
    the consequences just as much as she did.  Like I said, maybe YOUR
    expierience is different then mine and my Ex's... but it's a matter of
    how much responsibility the man took in your situation for the
    sitution.  Dont be so quick to curse all men because HE was an a$$.  
    We don't ALL turn our backs on the problem nor ignore that fact that we
    are as much to blame as the woman.  
    
    Skip

    
    
    re -1
    
    Skip,
    
    
    I am not accusing you of anything.  As stated in my last note
    I feel one way and you feel another.  Each of us in entitled to
    feel these ways.  I am not saying that the abortion you experienced
    does not affect you (or men involved in general).  You, however,
    seem to be an exception the the rule instead of the norm.  
    
    Again, please do not feel that I am trying to minimize the pain you
    feel.  It is real, and I understand and appreciate that.  
    
    Michele

    
    
    RE -1
    
    Skip,
    
    The man involved in my situation took as much responsiblity for
    the abortion as he choose to.  He was involved in the decision.
    He sometimes thinks of how it affects him (especially when he looks
    at his daughter).  He was not an "a$$" about it.  In fact, I admire
    him for sticking by me.  He chooses not to talk about it anymore.
    
    Do you think you feel as your ex does about it?  Don't you think each
    of you look at it in a different manner?  I agree with what you 
    were saying about counselling not being as complete as it should be.
    It should include how it will affect ones life long after the procedure
    had been performed.  
    
    Michele

    Michele 
    
    I'd better apologize, first of all for jumping back so hard.  It's just
    that it's a bit of a raw nerve with me and someday I'll learn to quit
    stepping into the middle of things with my 'fists' swinging.  
    
    Second of all for making it sound like you're so was an a$$.  I didn't
    exactly mean it that way.  You touched a raw nerve with your comments
    that I've had to fight against before.  I guess I just like to jump in
    and start swinging anymore without thinking about it... reflex actions
    I guess.
    
    Skip
    

    It seems as though note 1195 is going down a rat hole.

    These kids could care less how anyone else feels they have their own
    problems, and to them nothing equals them.

    These children came to me seeking funding for an abortion.  They had
    already contacted Family Services and seen a judge to have an abortion
    w/o parental consent.

    Speaking from experience I told them I understood how they felt, but
    the decision they were making would be carried for the rest of thier
    lives.  I also commended my nephew for sticking by his girl, but the
    decision would weight much heavier on her.

    They have noone to turn to except us.  

    As I said I gave them several sources to seek help and advice.  I
    offered to provide what support I could, rides, phone, emotional.

    Under the circumstances it would be devastating to both kids if their
    parents found out.. They had a decision to make and they made it.

    I cannot afford to help them financially and was seeking help in that
    area.  Advice, direction...

    Again, I suggest contacting their schools and talking with a counselor
    there.  Don't identify the them, just talk to the cousnelors and see if
    they can offer some suggestions.  It is a problem that effects them in
    school as well and some counselors can gain access to info on how best
    to deal with the situation.  They may also have info about clinics that 
    will aid in the paying for the abortion as well as give them additional 
    counseling both before and after (believe me there will be a need for
    it afterwards too).  Also, contact PP again and see if they have a
    financial counselor available.  It seems that all that was asked was
    the cost of the surgury not if they will be willing to work out some
    sort of financial agreement for monthly payments and such.  They will
    most likely (if the PP is anything like the ones in California) require
    the kids to come into the clinic for some counseling as well.  Finally,
    talking to one of the counselors at PP way reveal some additional ideas
    for getting the funds necessary.  
    
    Skip

    In for a moment:
    
    How about contacting our EAP?  They may have some good suggestions.
    
    Karen
    
    back out

    So how has it turned out.  Is your nephew and his SO OK?  Were you
    able to find the help needed?

    this is madness.......... abortion is snuffing out life
    
    
    there is the Massachusetts Citizens for Life organization, they have a
    	chapter in the Merrimack Valley. They claim they provide support
    and alternatives for women in crisis pregancies.
    
    
    eugene

    Could we try not turning this note into a forum on pro and anti
    abortion?
    
    Just a simple request.
    
    SKip

I might be too late in this instance, but for future reference....

Over the weekend I got a letter in the mail from Preterm in Brookline, MA
soliciting contributuions for their clinic.

What I thought would be useful here was that the info in the letter stressed 
that Preterm works with women (or couples) to find financial (sp?) as well as 
medical and emotional solutions to their problems. 


-Barbara

  Latest note in the continuing saga of my nephew..
  
  You ever get the feeling that something just isn't right?! Well that is the 
  case here.
  
  My nephew has moved out of my brothers house into one of his friends, "To 
  be on his own."
  
  I have finally managed to track him down and talk to him.  He came over the 
  house the other night, finally!  He begins to tell me he had great news.  
  It seems the baby isn't his so he doesn't have to worry.
  
  Groan.. I told him that the Girl Has to Worry, and it didn't matter if it 
  was his or not we still would do what we could to help.
  
  He went on to tell me that the "Father" had a pretty good job at MacDonalds 
  and could afford her expenses.  My nephew also told me that he had a sure 
  thing lined up in a few weeks.
  
  Well we talked for a while and I offered what support I could, and a lot of 
  advice, along with a lot of listening.  I'm amazed, just amazed.
  
  I've been all over the world, done many, many things and consider myself 
  open and Street wise, so maybe I'm over reacting.
  
  Believe me I have enough going on in my personal life without being "hood 
  winked" by my 17 year old nephew.

    Hood winked?  
    
    I suspect I'm missing something here, but it sounds that in his relief
    of learning he wasn't responsible, he simply forgot to tell you.  
    Teenagers have strange priorities, I know, I was one once.  It was easy
    for me to forget about someone when I need help and it sounded like
    they couldn't help me out.  (I've grown a lot since then believe me!)
    
    He may have intended to inform you but with the move, and whatever
    situations caused it, coupled with the relief of learning he didn't
    have to assume responsibilitie for the problem (regardless if that
    frame of mind is right or wrong).  And adding the fact that when he
    came to you for financal help and you were unable to give it, he may of 
    simply framed it in his mind that you weren't really interested.  
    
    Of course, I could be out 180 degrees as there's a lot of information 
    missing in your reply.  However, from what is said, take heart in the 
    fact that he was willing to own up until he learned it wasn't his.  
    That's a major step in a kid.  Especially now a days.
    
    That's just my 2 cents on it.  And that and about 90 more can get you a
    cup of coffee. 
    
    Skip