Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Steve,
    That is one of the best descriptions of stuttering that I have even
    read.  I am an ex-speech therapist. I would like to add one reinforcing
    bit of info based on my experience.  EVERY child between the age
    of 3 and 5 have periods of dysfluencies and you are so right when
    you encourage parents to not draw attention to the situation or
    correct the speech. It is not stuttering at that point but can indeed
    be a critical age for starting the avoidance patterns associated
    with true stuttering. So relax parents, be patient and above all-JUST
    LISTEN without analizing how the child is saying something.
    Concentrate on what the child is saying.
    
    Steve, I am so pleased for you that you realize that you are indeed
    *NORMAL*. 
    
   Thanks for enlightning us.
    Mary Ann

Steve, you are right about a lot of things that you have said and 
there is alot more to be said.  I am 40 years old and have stutter-
ing at least 35 of those years.  

Stuttering is pure HELL.  It hurts so much both inside and out. 

I remember going to school when I was six years old and having the kids at 
school laugh at me so much until I was crying.  In the third grade I
urinated on myself in class because I was afraid to raise my hand to
ask the teacher to be excused.  I didn't have to many friend because
I had become a loner at this point.  Every time people got use to me 
stuttering, someone else came along who thought it was the funniest 
thing that they had every heard and then had the nerve to ask me what 
did I say, hoping that I try it again.  Every day of my life I had to 
deal with the laughing faces and the hurt that was associated with them.  

I was a very bright kid in school but could not express myself for the 
fear of being laughed at.  I remember when I was about 10 or 11 when I had 
a crush on this little girl name Regina, she was the prettiest girl for miles
around.  She would always past my house when she was going back and forth to 
school.  One day I decided to approach her, as I began to talk, it seem to 
frighten her and she began to run.  Being frustrated, I ran behind her and 
kicked her in the rear.  You have no ideas what that did for me in the way 
of trying to talk to girls.

In or about the sixth grade, a teacher told me to laugh with people when they
laughed at my handicap.  That was a God sent message because it worked,
not only did it help me to cope but it also stopped some of the laughing
because the teasers no longer had the upper hand. 

In my teen years I had finally been able to talk small talk enough to have
several girls friends.  I immediately started my attack with little or no 
talking.  I knew no girl would like some guy spitting in her hear trying to 
say sweet words.  As I reach the age of 23 or 24 I met this older experience 
woman who said to me "You know it sounds sexy when you stutter".  Gosh, I wish
I had known this when I was younger.  I guess I can repeat "I love you"
quicker then the average guy.  If there are any girls who have dated 
guys who stutter, how did you make him feel about his handicap?

Steve, how do you like those people that give you advise on how to stop
stuttering?  I have almost stopped stuttering only because I listened to
myself and figured out crutch words.  (Words that take the place of words
that you can't say.)  Most of the time it was used out of context and sounded
like improper English.  Even though the words might not be considered proper
English, at least I was able to talk and fake it.  

The biggest help for me was when I got a job that required me to talk on 
the phone alot.  Like you, at first I would not say anything and hang up the 
phone too, but my work was not being done.  What's more frustrating than 
hearing some one on the other end laughing at you.  Other things that help is 
to fake a cough and mumble at the same time.  Most people don't want to
admit that they didn't hear you because it make them look like they 
were not paying attention.  If you notice, I have developed away to 
turn the tables a little.

You speculated several times some reasons for stuttering, well my
two oldest kids have very high IQ's, and one tends to stutter a little
and he is a very hypo kid and on the other hand the other is my relaxed.
As I said before that I was a very bright kid in school.  Could this be 
my mind is spitting out information faster than I can speak.  I tend to be
very nervous at times, is this due to my brain putting out more than 
my body can react too?  I have noticed that when I drink booze, my stuttering
goes away, is this due to the fact that the alcohol has slowed my thinking
process down?  I sing with out stuttering, is this due to the fact that
I am not competing with what I am saying, merely saying things that I
do not have to answer to.  One seem to stutter when they are caught off 
guard and requires a quick reply.

Steve, here is a couple of strange things:

	1.  Do you know that I am able to predict two day in advance when
	    there is any rainy or any severe damp weather changes coming.

	    My stuttering comes back and is very broken up almost to
	    the point where I'm not making sense especially with a mixture
	    of crutch words.  I have been studying this for at least 10
	    years.  Some people are able to predict the weather according
	    to their joints.
	    	
           
	2.  I know of a man who is a Pastor and if you were to introduce
	    yourself to him, he could not tell you his name within any 
	    reasonable amount of time.  But on the other hand he preaches 
	    an entire sermon and not utter one word in the form of stuttering. 
	    It's like two entirely different people that you are hearing.

One final thing, if there are any stutters out there reading these notes,
just try to mingling in with people and force yourself to talk, believe
me it will help you in the long run.  If you were to talk to me now, you 
probably couldn't detect that I am a Stutterer.

regards,

Lonnie

p.s. Steve, did you use a lot of crutch words to help you through?

    

    [AI'm not sure whether I am eligible to answer or not; I wasn't a
    stutterer, I was totally incomprehensible!  As a child, I spoke what
    was usually called "Double Dutch".  I used to speak the first half of
    one word followed by the second half of the second, or third, or fourth
    word.  I've been lead to believe, and it seems reasonable to me in
    hindsight, that my brain was working at twice or three times the speed
    that it was physically possible to articulate properly.  Incidentally,
    my kid sister was the same and I used to be called out of lessons at
    school to "translate" what my sister was saying.

    As a child, I'm told that I had extensive elocution lessons but most of
    the improvement was self-help.  It was too much like being told that I
    was "odd" to be forced to quote set exercises and strange (to me)
    pronunciations.
     
    Over the years, I have learnt to slow down when I'm speaking but I
    still get caught out fairly often when I'm tired or excited about
    something.  I just speed up and the words come faster and faster until
    I'm either stuttering or, if I'm writing something, the words get all
    snarled up somehow.

    
    My sister learnt to overcome her problem when she started doing
    amateur dramatics at school and she *HAD* to speak slowly and clearly
    in order to be heard from the stage.  It took a lot of time and hard
    work from all of the family but she worked it out in the end.

    Just a few thoughts,

    Lynda.   
        

    
    	I have a good friend who stutters. Just last night, his 5 year
    old caught him doing so at the dinner table, imitating him and calling
    attention to it. He just ignored it. Strange, that when I'm with
    him long enough, I emulate his ways so closely that *I* begin to
    stutter in the same way *with* him. As soon as I leave his presence,
    it's gone.
    	When he sings and plays his guitar, as mentioned by .2, there
    is no stuttering. "Travelin along, singin a song - side by side"
    and all the rest of the lyrics. Why?
    	My belief is that English speech is "digital" or sequential in it's
    nature. I mean, even DEC has built a machine which can take this
    ASCII string and intelligably pronounce it! But it's monotonic -
    the machine doesnt read ahead like a human reader might and put
    in the nice "musical" inflections, it wouldnt change pronounciations
    due to *this* or THAT or "somesuch" italics effects that you hear when you
    read...
    	As the brain works in two ways, the logical calculating side
    and the analog creative side, I'd be willing to bet that stuttering
    is connected to which side of the brain the speech is coming from.
    Perhaps, as suspected earlier, stuttering happens when the logical
    "CPU" is just racing along too fast for speech as a communications
    channel to keep up. Sometimes with my friend and I, well we have
    so much to say that words themselves become cumbersome; it takes
    too long to iterate a story, and it seems difficult to even tell
    one in a contiguous manner without an interrupt of some sort invaribly
    happening.
    	There's also another dimension to the brain, the super and sub
    conscious, super being the "waking" state; the state that is assumed
    to percieve this screen directly, in real time or whatever. The
    subconscious is a behavorial functional program of sorts; you function
    according to what "it" believes you are. It only responds to positive
    programming, and negative contextual inputs have a reverse effect.
    "Dont miss that spare - this is the playoffs!" will nearly *guarantee*
    that the pins will be missed...Remember all those "Thou shalt *not*s"
    and all the good they did you?
    	My personal guess at a "remedy" or whatever - for stuttering
    - would be to learn to sing as much as you can. Join a church chorus
    or something and learn the skill of perfect pitch. Start out making
    *sounds*, (forget the damn words for a while) that match single
    notes played on, say a piano. Develop and extend your range, from
    the lowest "BRRRRRR" to the highest "eeee" that you can. Once you
    can recognise and duplicate musical notes with your voice, you can
    start with different vowel sounds on each pitch-tone. Many times
    choirs sing "ooohs" and "laaas". Get into the habit of believing
    "I can sing" damn near anything I want. Taking this to an extreme,
    learn the art of "skat-man" singing, where the human voice
    intentionally tries to duplicate jazz and blues riffs that a horn
    player might play.
    	Having reached a "skatman" level of vocal skill through music,
    you have effectively trained your "right creative analog brain"
    side to control your vocal cords - remember, this is *music* and
    still nonsensical for the most part. Now, by putting your speech into
    a musical context - literally singing it - the stuttering will no
    longer be present. You might think this is all ridiculous and that
    you're not going to go around in life *singing* everything you say,
    but...consider that *all* vocal inflections have a correspondiong
    musical interval. Your voice would only sound much more *expressive*,
    because not only are the words communicating, but the sounds are
    now too. Only some peoples speech is very musical in inflection,
    *I* think it's a very fascinating, striking and a beautiful thing to
    listen to. Stops me dead in my tracks when I hear a very fluent
    *anti*monotone.
    
       	Joe Jas

    I've found this topic exceptionally interesting especially since
    my son - now 30 years old - started stuttering when he was in the
    third grade.  It just happened - don't know why - but of course,
    I brought him to various doctors and was referred from one place
    to another - until finally someone said to me - Mrs. L you are 
    being too strict with your son.  I don't know how or why that person
    decided that - but I was pretty upset.  Once I realized that there
    was nothing physically wrong with Jay - I sat down with him and
    very calmly told him what was told to me.  I then told him - that
    if that was the case - I'm sorry - but I was on this earth first
    and he's just going to have to adjust to me.   I'll listen to him
    and I won't push him and I won't talk for him - but he'd just have
    to handle the stuttering on his own.
    
    I spoke with his teacher and found that indeed, the kids in his
    class were making fun of him - but somehow he still had the strength
    to raise his hand and try to answer questions - even tried and
    succeeded in giving an oral book report.  The teacher was marvelous.,
    One day - she decided she was going to do her part to help - in
    her own way.  She asked Jay to do an errand for her and when he
    left the room - she closed the door and told the class that if she
    EVER found out that ANY of them ever made fun of Jay again, she'd
    make sure something awful would happen - like not being promoted!
    She made it clear to them that Jay should be given credit for
    continuing to try to talk even though he was stuttering.  And that
    they were cruel for making fun of him.
    Pretty awful - I guess - but it worked.  And it was only about a
    year ago that Jay found out about what she did.
                                          
    But even though Jay hasn't stuttered for years - he's still very
    sensitive about it - and gets really upset when some "comedian"
    on television imitates a stutterer.
    

    This note is being entered for an anonymous noter.
    
    **********************************************************************
    
    Steve Wellcome's base note about stuttering really hit home.  I've been
    stuttering for about 15 years, and I've had experiences similar to what
    Steve described, about ordering in restaurants, etc.  I'm not happy at
    all about my stuttering.  It hinders my enjoyment of life, it puts
    added stress on myself and my wife, and it is hurting my career.  I'd
    like to take some positive action to solve my stuttering problem.  But
    I'm not sure of the best way to go about it. 
                                                
    You see, I'm a generally nervous person - lacking self-confidence.  I
    don't know whether this is a cause of my stuttering, vice-versa, or
    each is a cause of the other to some degree.  I'd like to solve both of
    these problems, that is, my stuttering and lack of self-confidence, but
    I don't know which to address first because I don't know which is the
    cause of the other.  I don't have any physical speech impediment, as I
    can speak fluently when alone or in some relaxed situations, so I feel
    that the cause of my stuttering is purely mental.  I am hesitant to go
    to a speech therapist because I see speech therapy as a physical form
    of therapy, and I don't have a physical speech problem.  Maybe I'm
    wrong about speech therapy - how much of speech therapy is mental?  Can
    a physical form of therapy help me even though I don't have a physical
    speech impediment?  Any experiences with speech therapy would be
    appreciated. 

    I did try to solve my self-confidence problem by talking with a
    counselor a few years ago, without success.  I know many of you have
    said to keep trying different counselors until a good one is found.
    Again, I haven't pursued counseling because I think if I solved my
    stuttering problem my self-confidence problem would improve on its own.
    And from what I've read, the best way to solve a stuttering problem is
    with speech therapy. 

    So what should I do?  I'm hesitant to try psychological counseling
    because it won't address my stuttering problem, and I'm hesitant to try
    speech therapy because it won't address my self-confidence problem.
    Any advice or personal experiences with these problems would be greatly
    appreciated. 

    

    Re: .6
    
    >I am hesitant to go to a speech therapist because I see speech
    >therapy as a physical form of therapy, and I don't have a physical
    >speech problem.
    
         I would make an appointment with a speech therapist anyway.
    They've probably dealt with non-physical impediments.  If they don't
    handle your type of case, they should have good information about
    people who do.
    
         I suspect you would wind up with a sort of double-pronged program:
    speech therapy for the stutter and counseling for the self-confidence.
    

    If the stuttering causes a loss of self-confidence, and the loss of
    self confidence causes stuttering, then perhaps breaking the viscious
    circle almost anyplace will do. 
    
    How about an "Outward Bound" course? Or karate? Or almost anything else
    that you could eventually become very good at? Since most people don't
    do much, becoming better than 95% of the population at something just
    takes time and effort. 
    

    I've read about a program in Trenton, NJ, that has had good luck
    rehabilitating many cases of stress-induced illnesses, chronic
    pain, psychosomatic illness, and other problems that are partly or
    entirely psychological in nature by a program of daily running. 

    Other programs to help people who have problems with self-
    confidence or self-esteem have improved their results drastically
    by combining physical fitness with counselling. 
    
    It appears that the exercise itself helps change the body
    chemistry to a more positive condition, in addition to
    contributing to improvements in self-confidence levels as .8
    suggests.

    I don't remember that stuttering was mentioned specifically in any
    of these studies, but if you feel that stress or lack of
    self-confidence is contributing to your stuttering problem, it
    might be worth a try.  Assuming, of course, that you aren't
    already a world-class triathlete or something like that....
    
    --bonnie

    
    I am now engaged to a wonderful man, who happens to stutter.  I
    just became aware of the fact that he has been mentally abused by
    his mother all of his life.  He began to stutter at the age of 7
    and continues to do so to this day.  (He's in his early 30's). 
    I'm wondering if he bagan to do so because of the way he was treated
    by his mother.  An earlier note, I forgot which one, by a mother
    of someone who stutters stated that she was told she was being too
    strict on her son.  This really makes me wonder.....
    
    My fiance's mother, to this day, still tries to control him, verbally
    and mentally abuse him, and make him feel guilty for not doing enough
    for her.  (he does too much!)  I noticed that lately he's began
    to get depressed and stutter more because of this.
    
    Does anybody out there think that his stuttering could be because
    of his treatment to his mother?
    
    
    I would also like to add that his stuttering never stopped him from
    talking to strangers or speaking to a large group of people.  I
    give him alot of credit.  He doesn't think, in any way, that because
    of his stuttering he's different from anyone else.  I know he is,
    he's MUCH more special!!!
    

    Re: .10
    
    >Does anybody out there think that his stuttering could be because
    >of his treatment to his mother?
    
    That probably sounds reasonable to a lot of us, but we're not really
    analysts.  It sounds like counseling might be of some benefit. 
    Even if it doesn't help the stuttering, it might reduce his feelings
    of guilt or depression.

    
    
                      My son stutters.  He is now four 1/2 y.o.
               I have never felt so bad than when I watch him try
               to convey his thoughts.  I have spoken to many 
               pediatricians and speach therapists.  The problem
               seems to be his mind thinks MUCH faster than his
               young voice can articulate the words.  
    
                      It was very frustrating (for him and I both)
               Sometimes his voice would just "lock up" on a word
               while his mind had already finished the sentence.
               
                      I was told he would grow out of it.  In the
               last year or so, he has improved tremendously. He
               now speaks much more confidently and fluently.  
    
                      There are still many times when he is very 
               EXCITED about something, where he has trouble.
    
                      I stutter.  Not terribly, but I often find
               I must slow down just to get my thoughts in the 
               correct order before letting my mouth try and say
               it.   Otherwise, all that comes out are a bunch of 
               half-sentences and phrases.
    
    
                      My advise, is to just s-l-o-w- d-o-w-n. Try
               to relax.  Spontaneous conversation is where it is 
               most evident.  It's all but impossible to have a
               conversation and PLAN what you are going to say. But
               it seems to work pretty good for me and my son.
    
                      
                                                             Chris
               

I was going to respond to this subject almost a year ago, when it
first came up, but then thought better of it... There is a saying
where I come from: "The troubles of many are half the consolation".
Well, consider the plight of people who speak with an accent. When
**you** open your mouth, people realize that you stutter. They may
be impatient or rude, but, on the whole, you **can** communicate. 

When I came to this country, I was well beyond my formative years. I
already could read and write English and imagined that picking up
American was going to be a piece of cake... Well, in time I **did**
pick up the rudimentary basics and could even write a reasonably
intelligible letter or document, but when I opened my mouth to talk,
all hell used to break loose... 

Some people immediately assume I am hard of hearing, as well. They
increase the intensity level of their speech by 20dB and start to
move their lips distinctly, in the vain hope that I'm adept at lip
reading. I find that stepping back with an exaggerated motion and
answering in a very quiet voice, often helps. 

Some people assume I am totally uneducated or even somewhat
retarded. They start addressing me as they would a five year old
child, reverting to monosyllables, body language and occasional
grunts. After each of their sentences, they also ask me whether I
have understood. I find that asking them a highly technical question
(hopefully, one to which they have no answer) tends to 'show them
the light'. 

Some people find my accent funny and are quick to deride. A friend
(so to speak) recently found my ordering crepe in a restaurant
hilarious, when he thought I said 'crap'. (I manage to keep a
straight face when **he** laboriously tries to speak Hebrew - I know
how sensitive he is). Someone else spent half an evening bellowing,
describing how my wife had meant 'sheet' but articulated 'shit'...
On such occasions, I am tempted to make highly humorous, but
strongly worded, remarks. 

I think (hope? imagine?) that I am getting better at it. For the
most part, people just listen to the content of what I am saying and
ask "what????" when I botch a word beyond recognition. Lately, this
has been happening less and less.

Still, I hate it when I have to stand up and talk to a group. I just
**know** I am going to need a word whose pronunciation I am not sure
of. Worse, I am going to pronounce a word incorrectly, because it
just comes out incorrectly. It won't do me any good to repeat the
bloody thing - it's going to come out incorrectly again... 

FWIW: I have learned not to allow this deficiency to impact (or
even affect) my life. To some degree, I work around it. When I
can't, I just say "what the hell" and forge forward (like, when I
have to make a presentation).

-- Ron