Conference bookie::movies

    FWIW, last Sunday I heard an interview on NPR with some sort of
    American Indian expert.  She was American Indian as well as a scholar
    on the topic.  She had mixed feelings about Disney's Pocahontas.
    On the plus side, it does represent American Indian's in a positive
    light.  All the bad guys are white guys, basically.  When it came to
    historical accuracy, she summarized that she was probably going to have
    to spend a lot of time over the coming years correcting folks
    impressions.  She referred to the portrayal of Pocahontas as a "Brown
    Barbie."  
    
    It is true that there was a Pocahontas, there was a John Smith and she 
    was the daughter of a chief.  (This is all from my memory of the
    interview, so please pardon any errors.)  However, Pocahontas was about
    12 to 14 at the time of John Smith there.  It is doubtful that they
    ever met.  She did marry someone named John later and came to England. 
    She had one child and died of small pox in her early twenties.  And,
    there is a custom that the daughter of a chief can intervene if someone
    is being punished.  The scholar was asked about Disney's having worked
    with consultants on historical aspects of the story.  She figured they 
    probably had but that they ignored most of it.  
    
    She pointed out that Disney recognizes that it is in the business of
    entertaining with myths.  What they portray in the movie is accurate to
    the myths about Pocahontas and John Smith, not the history.  They
    apparently have gathered a lot of mythological information and put
    it into one story.  The idea is that folks should go with the
    understanding that what they are going to see is mythology based on
    real characters.  Disney's presentation of the story seems to follow 
    tried and true formulas that Disney typically adheres to.
    
    Steve

    I saw a blurb on CNN Headline news last night, and they said that
    although they believe that Pocahontas and John Smith did meet, they
    were friends only. This was stated by a woman who is reportedly a
    descendant of Pocahontas. They did say she was a bout 11-14 when John
    Smith would have been there, but I tuned in a little late, so I missed
    any other commentary they had on the issue. 
    
    I heard the comment about P being a native American Barbie, and quite
    honestly, it's not entirely unfounded. That's what she looks like in
    the movie. Still, it's so rare that Native Americans are shown in a
    good light (at least it used to be) that they should not make too much
    of it, as long as people understand this is not history, but myth.
    
    It's a sweet, romantic story.
    
    
    Marilyn

    The Pocahontas cartoon looks a lot like the woman who plays her
    in real life...that is..her voice.  I saw her interviewed on Extra.
    She never even got to meet Mel Gibson---wouldn't that be a bummer????:)
    
    From other specials I've seen about the Disney cartoons, the drawers
    try to capture the actual person in little nuances in the cartoon.
    For example they tried to emphasize Jeremy Irons eyes in Scar, 
    Ariel and Belle were both done the by same lady and she resembles
    those cartoons too.  It probably doesn't work for every character,
    but when they can do it, they do it.
    
    I think all the talk about if its historically correct are silly..
    Its a Disney cartoon not a documentary---there are talking animals
    for goodness sake!!!!  I don't think the real Pocahontas had a talking
    raccoon!!!!! :):)
    
    RS

    
   > I think all the talk about if its historically correct are silly..
   > Its a Disney cartoon not a documentary---there are talking animals
   > for goodness sake!!!!  I don't think the real Pocahontas had a talking
   > raccoon!!!!! :):)
    
   Hear, hear...
    
    And as a Disney cartoon, it was a thoroughly enjoyable one - at least
    if my daughters reaction to it is any indication.  She sat enthralled
    as we watched it at the Wang Center this past Friday night.
    
    Steve

    Re -2
    
    Just to keep this accurate, the racoon did not speak. It did some
    humanlike things, but this was not the Lion King. Only humans speak in
    this movie.
    
    
    Marilyn

    RE: 857.5
    
    > Only humans speak in this movie.
    
    There was a talking tree ... at least in the trailer for the movie ...
    

    WHAT???????  No talking animals????????  What kind of Disney
    flick is this?????:):)  Mel Gibson said there was a talking
    raccoon in this movie....jeez, you'd think he'd *know*!!!!!!!!
    Maybe he was confusing it with Braveheart!!!! :)
    
    RS

>    I think all the talk about if its historically correct are silly..
>    Its a Disney cartoon not a documentary....

Then why start with an historical scenario?
If they wanted to do a nice romantic myth, why not start with mythology?

To a degree, this is a silly argument, but why let Disney sugarcoat history?
John Smith was probably just another rapacious European 
by today's PC standards - why not invent a totally new guy to idolize?

- tom]

    Re -3
    
    You're right, I forgot the talking tree (Mother Willow). But the
    animals did not talk.
    
    Marilyn

    
    well shucks...Congo has Amy the talking ape.
    
    

.3>    Ariel and Belle were both done the by same lady 

No, they weren't.  I thought they had been, too, but I eventually found out
differently. (Paige O'Hara was one - Belle, I think.  I can't remember who
did Ariel's voice, but it wasn't the same person.  They do sound alike, though!)

Lots of discussion on Disney movies (and other Disney stuff) in the
KOOLIT::DISNEY conference, fyi.

-- Nina

re: 857.8   REGENT::POWERS                                       11 lines  21-JUN-1995 11:30

>>>To a degree, this is a silly argument, but why let Disney sugarcoat history?
>>John Smith was probably just another rapacious European 
>>by today's PC standards - why not invent a totally new guy to idolize?

    Possibly because the name "The Adventures of Pocahantas and Murray"
    doesn't have the same ring to it?
    
    
>>     <<< Note 857.11 by HUMOR::EPPES "I'm not making this up, you know" >>>
>>
>>.3>    Ariel and Belle were both done the by same lady 
>>
>>No, they weren't.  I thought they had been, too, but I eventually found out
>>differently. (Paige O'Hara was one - Belle, I think.  I can't remember who
>>did Ariel's voice, but it wasn't the same person.  They do sound alike, though!)
    
    
    The voices were, indeed different people.  On the other hand, the same 
    woman modelled for the character (and was filmed acting out certain
    movements).  Her name is Sherri Stoner, and she is one of the story
    editors on Animaniacs (Where she plays Aunt Slappy) and was one of the
    screenwriters of "Casper"
    
    tom

    re .12

>    The voices were, indeed different people.  On the other hand, the same 
>    woman modelled for the character (and was filmed acting out certain
>    movements).  

    Further down this rathole: I saw a behind-the-scenes segment in which
    they told us her hair would fall down in her face, and she had a
    habit of pushing it back. They incorporated that into Belle, and we 
    see her do it at least twice.

    Lisa

    For those interested in the "true" story, A&E is doing Pocahontas
    tonite during their biographies show.
    
    Bob

    > I think all the talk about if its historically correct are silly.
    
    When I saw the preview as part of The Lion King video, I abandoned any
    thought of a historically accurate portrayal. The historical John Smith
    was ambitious, arrogant, domineering, and short; he was also an avid
    revisionist of history who took care to see that accounts of his
    explorations showed him in the best possible light. To his credit, I
    have never heard him described as cruel; this makes him a couple
    notches better than those who colonized Mexico and South America. But
    he is still miles away from the sensitive Prince Charming clone
    portrayed in the Disney previews.
    				Jim

    I was disappointed with this one.  It felt rather "churned out" to me
    as if they were trying tom ake it onto the big screen by summer and
    onto video by Christmas.  Didn't seem like a whole lot of thought went
    into it.  I was never dazzled or blown away as I usually am by Disney.
    
    MJ

    
    My wife and I went to see this Friday.
    
    We cringed.
    
    I don't mind at all when Disney butchers a fairy tale to make a movie,
    or when (as in Oliver and Company) they play loose and fast with a
    work of fiction.  That's fine; it might or might not detract from
    my enjoyment of the film, but it certainly doesn't make me cringe.
    
    Having just been to Jamestown in April, though, the history of the
    early English colonies is fresh in my mind.  If Disney decided
    to make a movie about English colonization using fictional characters,
    I don't think I would have minded.  But having tied themselves to
    history in their choices of characters, a completely fictional
    story (even taking the only "historical" event they depicted, John 
    Smith being saved by Pocohontas, and mucking with that) just didn't 
    work.  The early years of Jamestown would make a good movie, but not
    a Disney movie; I think the problem was thus not so much their
    treatment of history as their choice of topic.
    
    IMHO Pocohontas was the least enjoyable recent Disney animated
    feature, unless you don't know or don't care about the history of
    Jamestown.  If you don't, I suppose it's a passable feature, but
    not among Disney's best.
    
    Joe

    > The early years of Jamestown would make a good movie, but not
    > a Disney movie;
    
    It would be a pretty grim flick, at least in the beginning. I seem to
    recall that they lost half to two-thirds of their population each year,
    to starvation or cold or (not sure of this) attack by the native
    Americans. They would get a new shipment of colonists from England each
    summer, then get decimated again. But never entirely, and eventually
    they succeeded. Does this match what you found out recently, Joe?
    			See you,
    				Jim B.

    
    Yes, that's fairly accurate.
    
    Jamestown didn't suffer much in the way of Indian attacks, and
    suffered no losses in the massacre of 1622, but for the first few
    years regularly lost 1/2 to 2/3 of the settlers to starvation, cold,
    and particularly disease (having built on swampland).
    
    It could be rather grim, if they focus upon that, but Pocohontas
    could have used a little reality.
    
    Joe

    
    	"Pocahontas" is starting its 3rd straight week at the Mendon
    	Drive-In [don't recall any movies ever being there that long].
    
    	For the last 2 weeks they've had some BIG crowds.  I don't
    	blame them for keeping it over, even though I wish they'd show
    	something good like "Apollo 13" or "Batman Forever".
    

>     	For the last 2 weeks they've had some BIG crowds.  I don't
>     	blame them for keeping it over, even though I wish they'd show
>     	something good like "Apollo 13" or "Batman Forever".

	If you want to see it at a drive-in (and in fact where I saw it),
	Apollo 13 is playing at the Milford [NH] Drive-In.  The new Sly
	film is playing on the other screen FWIW....

    
From the net, for your enjoyment...
    
=======

If there is only one movie that you should see this summer, then you
should probably go see _Pocahontas_.

There.  I said it.

I don't want to give the impression that I am raving about
_Pocahontas_.  I'm not.  The film is rather mediocre in comparison to
its Disney predecessors.  But I have never seen a film that
incorporates the plots, dialogues and characterizations of its summer
competition.

Consider the following summer lineup, and the _Pocahontas_ equivalent.

_Braveheart_:  Based on a historical event, this film focuses on the
trials of a nation fighting for freedom against the travesties of the
British.  Stars Mel Gibson.
_Pocahontas_:  Based on a historical event, this film focuses on the
trials of a tribe fighting for freedom against the travesties of the
British.  Stars Mel Gibson.

_Waterworld_:  An ecologically-sensitive tale of people who discover a
New World which one of them wants to exploit.
_Pocahontas_: An ecologically-sensitive tale of people who journey to
the New World which one of them wants to exploit.

_Die Hard with a Vengeance_: A European wants all the gold in the world
and doesn't mind blowing up America to get his hands on it.
_Pocahontas_: A European wants all the gold in the world and doesn't
mind blowing up America to get his hands on it.

_French Kiss_: A romantic film in which an American female falls in
love with a European male.  Focus is set upon a diamond necklace,
which is lost during the course of the film. The necklace reappears at
the climax of the film, worn by the female.
_Pocahontas_: A romantic film in which an American female falls in
love with a European male.  Focus is set upon a diamond necklace,
which is lost during the course of the film. The necklace reappears at
the climax of the film, worn by the female.

_The Bridges of Madison County_: A romantic film in which a local woman
is entranced by one who has traveled the world.  At the end, they separate.
_Pocahontas_: A romantic film in which a local woman is entranced by
one who has traveled the world.  At the end, they separate.

_Crimson Tide_: The head of the ship has a small white dog that follows
him wherever he goes.
_Pocahontas_: The head of the ship has a small white dog that follows
him wherever he goes.

_Casper_:  A widower and his daughter supernaturally relate to his dead
wife.
_Pocahontas_:  A widower and his daughter supernaturally relate to his
dead wife.

_The Englishman who went up a Hill But Came Down a Mountain_:  An
entire community works together to dig mounds of dirt to accomplish a task.
_Pocahontas_:  An entire community works together to dig mounds of dirt to
accomplish a task.

_Congo_:  About an expedition to a foreign continent in which the
explorers meet the "savage" tribe.  The expedition goes awry when one
of its members becomes greedy for gold.  Another of the characters
talks with his animal friends.
_Pocahontas_:  About an expedition to a foreign continent in which the
settlers meet the "savage" tribe.  The expedition goes awry when one of
its members becomes greedy for gold.  Another of the characters talks
with her animal friends.

_The Indian in the Cupboard_: Please.

_Free Willy 2_:  A young man keeps friendship with animals, and becomes
conscious of mother nature.
_Pocahontas_: A young woman keeps friendship with animals, and is
conscious of mother nature.

_A Little Princess_:  A young girl relies upon Indian mysticism to cope
with the trials in her life.
_Pocahontas_:  A young girl relies upon Indian mysticism to cope with
the trials in her life.

_Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: The Movie_: The latest in a series of
films that is targetted to kids, with gobs of merchandizing tie-ins,
including McDonald's.
_Pocahontas_: The latest in a series of films that is targetted to
kids, with gobs of merchandizing tie-ins, including Burger King.

    
    	Rolling!!
    
    	Is that all true?
    

    More or less.  :)  (at least, the plot comparison's are....)
    
    
    
    kim

    re: .22 -- I'd like to see you fit Apollo 13 into that sequence!
    
    One of the best send-ups of the tired old quote "If you don't see any
    other movie this year/summer/month/evening, then go see ..." was during
    the previews for a not-too-recent movie:
    
    (very deep, dramatic voice-over)
    "If you never see another movie for the rest of your life, you'll never
    see Monty Python's Life of Brian."
    			Jim B :-]
    

    When I and my 5 years old was watching the movie, I found my daughter
    was rather bored.(me too!) I totally agree this is the least enjoyable
    movie from Disney. No wonder Disney spent so much money to promote it.   

    My 2 1/2 year old granddaughter and I thoroughly enjoyed 
    pocahontas. The colors were wonderful and eye appealing. I guess
    I wasn't expecting it to be historically correct or BETTER than other
    disney movies. All we wanted was a little enjoyment we both could
    share. We got that. We got more, as we also enjoyed the music and
    characters.
    
    Marcie

    Saw this one over the weekend ... have mixed feelings.
    
    Cute animals, even if they didn't talk. Nice explanation of how
    Pocahontas and John Smith could understand each other. Liked the
    talking tree - Mother Willow - and the reference how bark from Mother
    Willow will help him feel better from a wound. Liked the animation -
    some of the background graphics - when they are running through the
    woods and take on characteristics of the deer, or when she's running
    and they have a background shadow of an eagle...
    
    For once I thought there was too much singing (usualy never complain
    about songs). As stated in earlier notes, historical inaccuracies were
    there but not intrusive. When has Disney ever told the story as it
    really is (look at all the grief they recently got for Hunchback of
    Notre Dame)? I read some article where they were talking about the
    original Grimm Fairy tales which Disney has made over into happy
    endings or greatly sanitized - and it was some of the disney biggies.
    
    Voices were good - never even caught it was Mel Gibson until the
    credits, then had to back the tape up and reply it. Did catch David
    Ogden Stiers for the governor - but not one of the other voices he did.
    One of the things that usually drives me nuts in animation like this is
    I'll recognize the voice and not be able to place it!
    
    So - voice of Pocohantas's father - can't remember the actor - what
    else has he been in? And her girl friend?
    
    Overall liked it, but not high on the list, like Lady and the Tramp and
    101 Dalmations. **1/2 out of *****
    
    janetb.

>    So - voice of Pocohantas's father - can't remember the actor - what
>    else has he been in? And her girl friend?


                               Russell Means 

Actor filmography

  1. Pathfinder, The (1996)
  2. "Buffalo Girls" (1995) (mini) TV Series
  3. Pocahontas (1995) (voice) .... Powhatan
  4. Windrunner (1995) .... Wa Tho Huck
  5. Natural Born Killers (1994) .... Old Indian
  6. Wagons East (1994) .... The Chief
  7. Last of the Mohicans, The (1992) .... Chingachgook


                             Michelle St. John

Actress filmography

  1. Pocahontas (1995) (voice) .... Nakoma
  2. Geronimo (1993) (TV)
  3. Liar, Liar (1993) (TV) .... Janice
  4. "By Way of the Stars" (1992) (mini) TV Series .... White Feather
     ... aka "Avontuurlijke reis van Lukas B., De" (1992) (mini)
  5. Conspiracy of Silence (1991) (TV) .... Helen Betty Osborne
  6. Lost in the Barrens II: The Curse of the Viking Grave (1991) (TV)
     ... aka Curse of the Viking Grave (1991) (TV)

    re: -1
    
    thanks!
    
    I thought I recognized the voice of the father and expected to see Wes
    Study's name in the credits. Didn't connect russell means with Lastof
    the mohicans - but that's where i know the voice from.
    
    None of the listings for the friend are familiar, so don't know why se
    sounded familiar.
    
    by the way - I know you've posted it here many times, but can't find it
    now. where on the internet are you finding these postings?
    
    janetb.

    http://www.imdb.com

    THANKS for the pointer!
    
    janetb.