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Conference oass::racers

Title:Racers and Racing
Notice:As long as it's not NASCAR or F1 or Drags...
Moderator:RHETT::BURDEN_D
Created:Tue Aug 08 1995
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:391
Total number of notes:4486

213.0. "UK Race Training School" by TRUCKS::DUGGAN_R (Don't happy, be worry) Tue Aug 28 1990 09:03


After a break of about a year since last going to a race school I have now 
booked myself on a two day race course at Cadwell Park, this October.

I thought I'd ask a few questions of you seasoned race lags and give you some 
details of the type and cost of race schools in the UK.

The school that I went to last year was the Brands Hatch Racing Centre in 
Kent (on the outskirts of London about 30 Miles SE from the centre). 
Following a fairly simple entry assessment drive, (that your granny could 
pass), they set an overall lap improvement target of 2 Sec/Lap/10 Laps. 
Starting at 70 Secs and going down to 54 in 3 grades.

School cars are Formula First: 

			UK Budget Formula (similar to Formula Ford) Very 
			restricted engine & tire spec. F Ford pole times 
			are around about 48 Secs as opposed to about 51 for 
			F first at Brands Hatch.


The course is structured as an initial trial followed by three grades:-

Class			target (e.g bettered at least twice in 10 laps)
Trial
PI
Intermediate 	A	70
		B	68
		C 	66
PI
Advanced 	A	64
		B	62
		C	60   I got Here in 90 laps
PI
Graduation	A	58
		B	56
		C 	54   Should have been here, 

My excuse was a very wet circuit and a spin at the beginning of the 30 laps 
that I booked for the Advanced A,B,& C, Note also that in the wet they set 
the targets 12 Secs/lap slower. (Is this realistic or pathetic?)


The whole coarse takes a minimum of 90 laps in all. Progression between 
classes is also subject to you passing a PI (Personal Instruction) assessment 
with an instructor on board in a saloon. costs are 30 Pounds/10 laps & 
40 pounds per assessment (oh and 120 for the trial). so far my total cost has 
been 470 Pounds. I found the teaching method suited me quite well, there is 
little theorising or enforced technique all tuition is given whilst on the 
circuit they basically have preset target lap times for each stage and allow 
you to go out and get on with things, (in the PI sessions the 
instruction is mainly around the landmarks on the circuit, and ensuring 
that you are not doing anything too silly), they do however keep a close eye 
on you to make sure you are not overstepping your ability or level of 
experience e.g if you go much more than 2-3 seconds under your target 
time you probably will get a yellow flag waved at you. If you don't slow down 
or if at any time you are looking erratic and the black flag comes out pretty 
smartly. Although I only saw the black used once. Most people seemed to get a 
yellow at least once per session.

How difficult was it for all you seasoned racers out there to get near to the 
pace?

How much can you infer about ultimate potential from initial performance?

Each time I went to the school I always had safety as number 1 priority (I 
hope I always will), and every time ended up thinking I was just too
restrained (apart from in the wet).

If anyone else has got to a similar standard how did this sort of pace *feel* 
like to you? I can say I think that getting at least a few seconds per 
lap is going to be fairly easy, but where do the problems really start? Even 
on my best lap 59.36 I was not really having to try very hard, feathering 
the throttle on the back straight and running at about 5,000 as opposed to 
about 6K, (I'm sure that the cars are not set up very well some of them feel 
very nervous at speed while others feel completely stable), braking a good 
50-100 yards early at most corners, and lifting on setup to some minor curves
where I'm sure that you could just keep the throttle nailed to the floor.

I think that my main problem is that I haven't had a chance to feel the cars
anywhere near the limit yet and that I don't quite know what to expect when I 
do get it there. This is not quite true as I have pushed into corners fairly 
hard on one or two occasions and literally grabbed the car back as soon as 
it started  to show any sign of it going away, I don't think this is 
indicative of my driving style in general, more an aspect of perhaps being 
over cautious. In road cars of similar straight line performance I have been 
quite comfortable with minor corrective action whilst maintaining the maximum 
forward momentum in oversteer situations and the like, I must say though that 
when I have got near the limit the onset of misbehaviour did seem very fast 
by comparison to a well sorted saloon (road rally prepared). 


I wonder how difficult trimming down 6 seconds/lap is going to be 
, I suppose I could just wait and see, but I can't resist the derision that 
will probably follow this note.

Anyway I'll put a reply to this note following my two days at Cadwell.


Regards


Roy.


T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
213.1Cadwell is one Heck of a circuit.VANTEN::MITCHELLDA number, not a free manTue Aug 28 1990 09:549
 I've raced there once. Have you been there before?
Its quite different to all the other club circuits.
 The bits I couldnt get right were Charlies and the Gooseneck.

As regards getting a vast lump off your time. Try following somebody
who knows what they are doing i.e. they are are doing the time you want 
do. I did this last time and got 6.5 seconds off my time in practice
(Snetterton) and lost a further 3 seconds in the race. I believe I've
got another 3 seconds to take off this time. 
213.2various rates...KOOZEE::PAULHUSChris @ MLO6B-2/T13 dtn 223-6871Tue Aug 28 1990 13:577
    	I've noticed that various people have various rates at which they
    approach their ultimate.  I've particularly noticed corner workers when
    they become drivers. Their first green flag laps are usually within 10
    sec/lap  (for lap times in the 1:10 to 1:40 range) of their ultimate, 
    and by the end of the first weekend (say 2 hr track time) they are
    within 5 sec of their ultimate. This is quite a bit quicker than the
    norm, but does show one benift of corner working.  - Chris
213.3Lower Polar inertia?CRATE::SAXBYIs this personal or what?Wed Aug 29 1990 04:446
    
    A mid-engined single seater will always appear to loose grip more
    suddenly than a front-engined saloon, it just takes longer to start 
    to loose it.
    
    Mark
213.4ReportTRUCKS::DUGGAN_RDon't happy, be worryMon Oct 15 1990 14:4680
My two days at Cadwell, were really good fun. From starting 
out as the slowest of all of the 18 pupils on the morning of the first day, I 
ended up over a second and a half quicker than anyone else and more than 5 
seconds faster than the average. At the end of the first day I was about 3rd 
fastest, but nearly 5 secs slower than the chap who was fastest, I think this 
was mainly due to me not having done anything for the last 15 months, with 
one exception everyone else there had either taken an advanced course just 
recently or were already racing.


The two days the course consisted of:-

	Assessment drive
	46 Timed Laps in a Formula First 3 x 10 & 2 X 8 lap sessions.
	A PI (Personal Instruction) session before each set of timed laps.
	10 Demonstration Laps in a Multisports car (Van Diemon sports racer) 
	10 Laps in a Formula Forward (Budget slicks & wings formula).
	Oversteer test.

In all around 100 Laps for 600 Pounds.


As for the driving you can see from the Lap times below, that I took fairly 
large chunks off of my times on each set of timed laps. 
    
    
All timed Laps 1 minute + seconds below. 
 
   42.18    29.2   23.56   23.77   25.47
   44.96   28.57   31.73   20.78   24.88
    42.3   26.16   20.76   21.79   22.32
   41.39   26.82   20.86   18.66   16.81
   49.28   27.89   24.25   19.47   14.09
   35.85    30.1   21.28    19.6   16.92 } Bulked
   37.89   29.35   22.74   17.13  *13.99*  Best Time
   42.65                   29.66   14.99 } Started to run out of fuel S**T
                           17.05   16.27 }


I think the key to my improvement was the oversteer test. This was held prior 
to the last session of laping. On one corner (Park) there is a large runoff 
area, if its going to happen  this is the 'best'? place to spin. The test 
consisted of taking a run at the corner from halfway down the main straight 
and from flat in third gear leave your braking to a cone placed at about 
20 meters from the turn in point. This really takes some doing first time my 
nerve went and I lifted at about 50 and was on the brakes a good 10-20 from 
the cone, still convinced I was going to spin, the car just took the turn and 
I exited to a deal of jeering from the onlooking instructors, next time round 
I held the throttle to the cone and through the car in at the corner as hard 
as I could, the result was pretty predictable, but there was a brief moment 
when I thought I could hold onto it before it got away from me, and I exited 
the corner backwards, still I did manage to keep the engine running. This 
really is the quickest way to find the limit that I've experienced and of the 
remaining three runs that I had I found that I could hold the car in a nice 
power slide controlling it on the throttle and with minor steering adjustments, 
in a total of a probably less than 20 seconds of action I had raised my 
confidence in control of just over the limit situations by at least ten fold.

I certainly answered the questions that I had from .0 To give you some 
idea of how fast the 1' 13.99 lap was compared to the 
outright capability of the cars, the instructors reckoned that you could get 
down to the 1 ' 15's by good and precise fast driving. Below this you have to 
start pushing things, they set a final target of 1' 12 as they reckon the cars 
are around a couple of seconds of the pace due to the way there set up and 
that none of the engines are very quick, there was a race for the firsts the 
weekend before I was there, the fastest lap during the race was a 1' 8.9.

It was only in the last set of ten laps (after the oversteer test) that I 
felt confident of knowing how the car responded at and just beyond the limit. 
And with all the laps in the session I never got a single lap where I felt 
that in any one given lap I had taken more than about 50% of the bends as 
well as I could. So I'm sure that I could find at least another second per lap. 
After this I would have to start to stretching myself to find another whole 
second but if the instructors assessment of the cars is correct that would 
put me right up toward the front of the grid (or am I just dreaming 8*).

All I need now is M$ and I'd be able to find out.. oh well one day (Soon?)


    
213.5sounds good!VANTEN::MITCHELLD............<42`-`o>Tue Oct 16 1990 04:133
But It will have to wait till next year when I have some more holiday. And
could be a bit difficult to persuade my sponsor/pit crew/transport driver 
that this is better than a skiing holiday!
213.6Well I did it as wellVANTEN::MITCHELLD............<38`-`o>Wed Feb 20 1991 11:082
 It was good. I managed a 1'15" but my excuse was the temp was below
freezing. Not too good for grip.
213.7Did you think is was good value?TRUCKS::DUGGAN_RDon't happy, be worryFri Feb 22 1991 08:3225
Derek,


Good to see you got there, any update on the course content and cost? I know 
that the Other BHL circuits have put there prices up quite a lot just 
recently. I think that its around 25%+. 

How did it compare to running your own car at an open test day?

Unfortunately I'm just not in a position to be able to afford buy a car 
for quite a while yet... oh well one-day. I know its a bit daft but I think if 
they were to run a similar course at another circuit I would be quite 
interested in having another go.

If you were to start out from the beginning again which other formulas would 
you consider?

What would you say the advantages/disadvatges of buying a car as an 
unfinnished project v's a going concern.


Regards,


Roy.    
213.8VANTEN::MITCHELLD............<38`-`o>Fri Feb 22 1991 09:1427
>>How did it compare to running your own car at an open test day?

A lot better , I found someone in the same car shouting faster, smoother
a real help

>If you were to start out from the beginning again which other formulas would 
>you consider?

	Definitely Multisports, or Formula Forward, or even tin tops

FFirsts are a bit quirky, I didnt get them to go as fast as I should have
compared to the other vehicles. In the Escort I managed to get Instructor
going.. "I really enjoyed that, but a bit hard on my heart" (An ace FFirst pilot
at least 10 years younger than me). maybe I'm biased or feel more secure with
a bit of bodywork about me. Mind you the F.Forward I managed to throw around
quite well.


>What would you say the advantages/disadvatges of buying a car as an 
>unfinnished project v's a going concern.

Unfinished can mean a bottomless pit for money and time... my 23 has taken
a lot of both just trying to sort out small problems. �250 to get a throttle
that actually works. The fuel system will have cost about �150 to sort out.
The gear linkage will cost about �300 to finally sort. Oil cooling �150
Oil pressure gauge �50. etc.. etc..
I would buy a year old  Multisport if racing was your aim, for about �8k